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Yeah, using MiH to accelerate time would waste Kars' time more than anything else in this match.
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Kaguya Houraisan vs Novel Kars
- Thread starter FateAlbane
- Start date
- 8,998
- 2,927
- Thread starter
- #42
Where exactly is this stated in the novel, tho? I don't remember this whole "uses the stand without even requiring the stand to be out" thing.
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Punches Jorge himself and uses White snake's power multiple times without summoning it, Time stop can be used without the World being out, DIO does it in the manga multiple times actually and same with D4C.
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Also, if I'm not wrong, bloodlusting ONLY makes a character go for their best abilities from the get go, it doesn't give them knowledge on what abilities to use to deal with a specific power.
"Bloodlust refers to a state where a character is fighting without any inhibitions, and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy. Bloodlusted characters fear nothing, and won't hesitate taking injures if it leads to a higher probability of winning a battle.
A bloodlusted character will not be victim to Character Induced Stupidity, and will be much more likely to speed blitz opponents (if doing so is within their powerset)."
So I doubt Kars would go for the specific Stands needed to take down Kaguya (While Kaguya would go for her Key ability from the start)
"Bloodlust refers to a state where a character is fighting without any inhibitions, and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy. Bloodlusted characters fear nothing, and won't hesitate taking injures if it leads to a higher probability of winning a battle.
A bloodlusted character will not be victim to Character Induced Stupidity, and will be much more likely to speed blitz opponents (if doing so is within their powerset)."
So I doubt Kars would go for the specific Stands needed to take down Kaguya (While Kaguya would go for her Key ability from the start)
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #45
Every single Time Dio called the name of the stand on activation as far as I remember. Otherwise it wouldn't be a meme.
And I wouldn't be so reliant on D4CU. Kars still needs to go and get stuff from an alternate timeline. If he starts with D4CU I can tell with around 90% certainty that he probs gets eternalstopped before anything.
And I wouldn't be so reliant on D4CU. Kars still needs to go and get stuff from an alternate timeline. If he starts with D4CU I can tell with around 90% certainty that he probs gets eternalstopped before anything.
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Yet most of his Stands would work, Time stop, White snake, D4C, etc are all good options and best of his abilities would likely include starting with time stop.
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #47
I legit see Kars getting rekt if he starts this with anything other than BTD. And even then, Kaguya should theoretically have the advantage on activation because of the mechanics of her power.
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Only MiH can truly take her down though. All of his other options are just ways to bid time for MiH.
Though if we're truly ending up in a "who hits first" situation, I'd say inconclusive.
Though if we're truly ending up in a "who hits first" situation, I'd say inconclusive.
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Wouldn't time stop work? Hed have over an hour of things to try in time stop like soul manip, white snake, etc and if none of those worked hed BTD and MIH.
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Soul Manipulation doesn't work. I also doubt you can accelerate time AND stop it at the same time.
Can he uses BTD while time is stopped though? (Not that it matters, it would be inconclusive anyway due to Hax Clash noted above.)
Can he uses BTD while time is stopped though? (Not that it matters, it would be inconclusive anyway due to Hax Clash noted above.)
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #51
Can Kars even use two different stands at the same time? As far as I knew he had to change stuff.
Assuming his stuff comes out first when if this comes down to a shoot out, anyone can legit argue that Kaguya can apply eternity to him and make his activation take forever doesn't sound very accurate. Both powers coming out at the same time, except that Kaguya's power prevents Kars from making his power do anything.
Assuming his stuff comes out first when if this comes down to a shoot out, anyone can legit argue that Kaguya can apply eternity to him and make his activation take forever doesn't sound very accurate. Both powers coming out at the same time, except that Kaguya's power prevents Kars from making his power do anything.
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He had Dune, Das Boot active at the same time. Dio had the World and passion active at the same time, etc. There's a few instances. MIH wouldn't work in time stop, everything else should. When I saud MIH after messing in time stop I mean hed just go and BTD and use it, all MIH would do is shorten his time stop.
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #53
'k, cool.
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Essentially outside of maybe KQ, Das Boot, C-Moon and maybe Dune (MIH I'm gonna say diesnt, Pucci had that power while MIH wasn't sctive and Kars was there). His Stands don't need to be summoned and their powers can be activated instantly like time stop or D4C and at the same time implying they don't null each other like MIH within a time stop.
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #55
The point is that this match will be decided in literally the first choice. Kaguya has one "go-to tool" to choose (meaning she is 100% sure to go Eternity Manip) while Kars has a bunch of tools and if he chooses a wrong one... Well.
If he chooses a right one, there's a fair chance he gets stopped upon activation as the effect of Kaguya's power is quite literally making stuff reject all change.
If he chooses a right one, there's a fair chance he gets stopped upon activation as the effect of Kaguya's power is quite literally making stuff reject all change.
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Why wouldnt Kars start off with his best bet, time stop or BTD? Then we have no idea which would take precedence since they're both instant I guess?
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Is it really his best bet though? Time stop I can understand but BTD basically makes him go backward in time.
Basically:
Kars needs a very specific set of abilities all used together to actually kill her. Despite the fact he has no reasons (at first glance) to do these things. Kaguya only need to use her basic ability to finish him.
Basically:
Kars needs a very specific set of abilities all used together to actually kill her. Despite the fact he has no reasons (at first glance) to do these things. Kaguya only need to use her basic ability to finish him.
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #58
Because he has a bunch of options. Saik covered this and bloodlust above. For example, we can say for sure that Kaguya will go for Eternity because it's her one option and "go-to" hax but I at least have no idea what Kars starts with considering all his options.
As for who takes precedence, I pointed out my opinion but I won't say it's right or wrong since I'm not voting here.
As for who takes precedence, I pointed out my opinion but I won't say it's right or wrong since I'm not voting here.
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In time stop, he'd have the chance to use all his powers, if none work than yeah, it would be and he'd use it as he did it before.
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In time stop, only BTD could be used for anything significant. Even then, he'd have to actually think up "jeez I should totally go back in time to activate MiH to kill this girl, who just seems tougher than usual". Pretty sure that simpler options like KQ's basic bomb would be preferred over such specific methods.
All in all, I'd give actually give it to Kaguya, since she wins most scenarios (And at best gets inconclusive if Kars picks the right options.)
All in all, I'd give actually give it to Kaguya, since she wins most scenarios (And at best gets inconclusive if Kars picks the right options.)
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What? If he time stops he has at least an hour to exhaust his options which should only take a second or two honestly and him thinking of doing that is extremely likely. Considering something similar happened in the novel.
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His time stop isnt short, he can do hundreds of things before it's even half over. Even DIO has an hour long time stop.
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Except that he won't be able to see that Kaguya is immune to all of his options except MiH till time stops runs out. If he successfully erases her with KQ, he won't immediately see that Kaguya is regenerating from her wounds and coming to wreck her, time is stopped after all.
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #64
That legit only happens in the scenario where
1. He chooses time stop out of all his options.
2. His time stops goes smoothly despite Kaguya activating Eternity at the same time to stop him.
3. I legit don't remember any power in Jojo taking effect while time is stopped, so Kars would have to go out of time stop before checking on anything. Then it's back to the whole "Eternity vs whatever hax".
1. He chooses time stop out of all his options.
2. His time stops goes smoothly despite Kaguya activating Eternity at the same time to stop him.
3. I legit don't remember any power in Jojo taking effect while time is stopped, so Kars would have to go out of time stop before checking on anything. Then it's back to the whole "Eternity vs whatever hax".
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In fact, Kars killing Kaguya will actually be harmful to him. If she dies, she can "respawn" anywhere she wants, effectively giving her a chance for a surprise attack.
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Except he can read her thoughts and memories within the time stop. This isn't in character, why wouldn't Kars do everything he can in timestop including reading her mind before undoing the time stop?
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #67
Because this reasoning equals putting Kars in the best possible scenario while putting Kaguya in the worst out of all the possibilities in this match.
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MIH actually worked in time stop technically, everything else is passive and would work like white snake for an example, he wouldn't need to undo it for that unkess he used Das Boot or something that uses missiles or KQ's first bomb.
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Also, doesn't White Snake needs to pull out the soul for this to work? This isn't going to work, resistance to Soul stuff and all.
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"Technically". Pretty sure that what happened is that MiH forced time to accelerate. Yet doing that will just...unstop time.
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White snake can remove both souls and memories/minds, theyre two seperate discs unless you're telling me she has both despite it not being listed on her profile. Kars can also physically phase through people's heads, to what extent, not sure.
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What that wasn't the point if that, I already said MIH would undo time stop, the point was that stand abilities do work in time stop.
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #73
I'm not saying Kars has no chance even if he time stops Kaguya.
What I'm saying is that this scenario is very unlikely and has low possibilities of happening when compared to the other situations where Kaguya actually wins. I mean, even if you assume he goes with Time Stopping from the start you can't even assume it goes before he is stopped eternally himself.
Furthermore:
"Except he can read her thoughts and memories within the time stop."
Never have I seen him doing this whole "Stop time, use White Snake within the time stop, extract discs, read memories, know what I need to do, go from there."
This is another one of those extremely unlikely scenarios.
What I'm saying is that this scenario is very unlikely and has low possibilities of happening when compared to the other situations where Kaguya actually wins. I mean, even if you assume he goes with Time Stopping from the start you can't even assume it goes before he is stopped eternally himself.
Furthermore:
"Except he can read her thoughts and memories within the time stop."
Never have I seen him doing this whole "Stop time, use White Snake within the time stop, extract discs, read memories, know what I need to do, go from there."
This is another one of those extremely unlikely scenarios.
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #74
Like, you need to assume a ton of stuff in Kars' favor and against Kaguya to reach that conclusion/scenario.
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And that won't help him at all if he just lets Kaguya move against. She will just freeze him.
Again, Kars only wins specific scenarios, while Kaguya would win just about anything else. BTD takes time to activate (Not much, but enough for Kaguya to use her ability), D4C needs specific situations to work (Again, not much but still giving Kaguya time).
Only time stop would actually activate at the same time as Kaguya's ability. Even then, if both triggers at the same time, this will leave Kars frozen forever and Kaguya frozen for an hour. Resulting in Kaguya win.
I'm too tired to keep debating, but this is my vote, and it's final.
Again, Kars only wins specific scenarios, while Kaguya would win just about anything else. BTD takes time to activate (Not much, but enough for Kaguya to use her ability), D4C needs specific situations to work (Again, not much but still giving Kaguya time).
Only time stop would actually activate at the same time as Kaguya's ability. Even then, if both triggers at the same time, this will leave Kars frozen forever and Kaguya frozen for an hour. Resulting in Kaguya win.
I'm too tired to keep debating, but this is my vote, and it's final.
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No but he can do that, and considering how cautious Kars is unlike his manga counterpart it wouldnt be out of character. The only time he was cocky was against DIO and when DIO got one over him he decided he changed his tune and went for the most effective way after a semi complex plan involving time travel. Plus Kars actually does use White snake a lot, he uses it almost every time he's encounters someone who would know something he doesnt or to learn about them, he used it against Narancia and joji when they first met and went through their entire life, used it on Pucci and learned of MIH, used it whenever joji was away from him to learn what he might of missed, etc.
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And even if his time stop activated but her power stopped him from doing anything else he'd likely just adapt considering casulity manip, Time travel, atomization, Time stop, the death and rebirth of the universe are all things he adapted too, several being universal in scale all the stands he came across were adapted too and copied. Assuming he can adapt to this when he has adapted to worse should be fair. Unless she's gonna stop him from adapting but it's not like she knows he can do that.
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Except that her very power stops him from adapting.
This is "eternity". Kars will be stuck in his current state forever. He can't adapt out of this if he's stuck in it. Even then, this would at the very least give her enough time to 5-A into his 6-B.
This is "eternity". Kars will be stuck in his current state forever. He can't adapt out of this if he's stuck in it. Even then, this would at the very least give her enough time to 5-A into his 6-B.
- 8,998
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- Thread starter
- #79
Kaguya's power rejects change. Kars wouldn't adapt because he would be eternally stopped in his exact state of being at the point where the hax got to him.
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Let's ignore that for a second. Can she kill him as a disembodied soul?
