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Ok my dude. We are clearly reading two different manga or just have two completely different brains. So me and you will have to agree to disagree.
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Jujutsu Kaisen Hax & Addition Thread
- Thread starter Arkenis
- Start date
- Status
Arkenis
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- Thread starter
- #363
We obviously have two different brains. Do you actually think the adaptation that allows someone to adapt to any and all phenomena would not be able to make maho grow faster and stronger?? And dude you said Maho pressed Sukuna? He gets every attack blocked and never hurts Sukuna.
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A.) His adaption only works on things that damage him, so no actually I don’t think he adapts to speed. Maho tagged sukuna prior to any adaption anyway, something jogo couldn’t accomplish deapite being said to be one of the fastest cursed spirits by dagon.
B.) yes. Learn what “pressed” means. Jogo literally never landed a hit in sukuna and sukuna was playful the whole fight.
sukuna was immediately forced to block and tagged several times by mahoraga. Sukuna was forced to use his donain expansion to get around mahoraga’s ability in addition to this.
This is such elementary induction that if you don’t see the point that I really don’t want to waste time arguing it with you as we likely won’t see eye to eye on the point.
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You guys should comment this in the general discussion. Here is about Hax, not scale
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Any updates? Since i want Gojo vs Makima and Kurumi to be continued
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Gojo vs Makima will not be possible, since Gojo now stomps
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I see, same can be said to Gojo vs Kurumi?
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Perhaps
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What exactly was looked to be implemented here, I remember approving a few things but I don't know if they ever got changed or what exactly it was?
Theendzero13
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I think we still debating i guess, limited invulnerability for sorcerers is still getting argued did you change your stance?
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I'll say this now, that's not getting by. It should be dropped, especially if that's all that's keeping this from moving forward
Theendzero13
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Ok, on your abscence life o king suggested instinctive reaction for sorcerers on namami's level because he could instinctively protect his soul from mahito, what do you think
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I feel its fair, I saw the scan for it. And while I'm a bit reserved on just giving it to all grade 1 sorcerer's I think Todo's final interactions with Mahito supports that point as well.
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Waiting for my thread to finish. Also have more bit stuff to cover once that occurs. I can make my own thread if need be.
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I very much don't think this verse needs to have anything to do with conceptual manipulation. Only really gojo has anything that points directly to that. For the cases of Mahito, Yaga, that lady that summoned Toji, and Not Getou, we should just give them Information and Soul manipulation since its pretty explicitly stated that's what they're doing.
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Just on a note, in case Hax's revisions are finalized, I think it's better that we don't add to the profiles for now, as they are extremely bad and disorganized.
It is better to create sandboxes little by little, like here (Of course, we'll don't create sandboxes of all characters, only the main ones for now)
It is better to create sandboxes little by little, like here (Of course, we'll don't create sandboxes of all characters, only the main ones for now)
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While I do support adding them in Sandboxes first, I think its fine to add them to the profiles as is since stuff like Ap and Speed will be handled in other threads. And if we can add fixes to the profiles now then they shouldn't wait.
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People will see the profiles and think we're crazy
But if the majority thinks it's better this way, okay
But if the majority thinks it's better this way, okay
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Please, that's the story of the site in general. Might as well be consistent about it
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Many Things
When Dr.White finishes his thread I will update the sandbox and then this can be finished.
When Dr.White finishes his thread I will update the sandbox and then this can be finished.
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The point of the thread is to delineate instances in which information acts similarly to concept manipulation and how to deal with that. Which would involve JjK for said reasons.
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I will remove invulnerability from sorcerers for now
But know that I have not abandoned it
But know that I have not abandoned it
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The thing is that there isn't any real overlap with conceptual manipulation in the case of JJK. The idea of souls or body information isn't being manipulated in verse, just the information itself. There's nothing conceptual about how any of this is described or given to us. It's purely informational. The only instance that really involves anything of manipulating ideas is Gojo's Cursed technique.
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That's not really the case for JjK given that collective humanity inherently creates existences from their abstract collective awareness. In such cases, if the underlying psychic reality has units that allow for existence that that can arrange to create things like matter and spirit, in most cases information, then it would be an analog to conceptual manipulation for the verse which would explain the collective humanity stuff.
Mahito explains as much in his discussion to Junpei when he says especially feared phenomena manifest from "images"(conceptions) shared by mankind. So humanity's conception of "Volcano disasters" birthed Jogo for instance, which is why he is inherently tied to said powers. This is also expressly highlighted by the existence of Imaginary Vengeful Cursed Spirits, which manifest directly from human-made fiction that is realized by a large collective conscious. Cursed spirit being the root of this would obviously possess said qualities, and sorcerers with esoteric moves (like Inverse, Mahito's, Ogami's and some others) would scale to messing with concepts or information over a certain range.
As someone who's worked extensively on the Persona/Megami tensei profiles, I can confidently say there is crossover here. Getting something like "ontological info manip" or"metaphysical information" and subjective reality would suffice and fill a very similar function. So we'll see what is ultimately decided upon, but pretty much everyone agreed that you don't need to have a universal range to qualify for concept manip.
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This really feels like you're taking a relatively simple idea and complicating it thanks to your experience with a separate verse. While yes, humanity's collective fear gives birth to curses, that's all it is. There is no need to mention anything like a psychic reality or anything like that, because the setting itself is pretty direct about it.
Only one cursed technique relies inherently on messing around with concepts, the others rely instead on messing with things that fundamentally, already exist. It's a very simple idea. That we don't have to blow out of proportion to add things that aren't really considered in verse. Stuff like inverse isn't reliant on concepts, it's reliant on gauging energy. Something Mahito's cursed technique is reliant on manipulating the soul, not the idea of a soul. Something like Ogami and Yaga's stuff is reliant on manipulating information, not the ideas behind it.
There is no need to say their manipulating ideas or concepts because in the end, we're dealing normally with stuff that can be summarized with cursed energy something that is in of itself actual not conceptual.
Only one cursed technique relies inherently on messing around with concepts, the others rely instead on messing with things that fundamentally, already exist. It's a very simple idea. That we don't have to blow out of proportion to add things that aren't really considered in verse. Stuff like inverse isn't reliant on concepts, it's reliant on gauging energy. Something Mahito's cursed technique is reliant on manipulating the soul, not the idea of a soul. Something like Ogami and Yaga's stuff is reliant on manipulating information, not the ideas behind it.
There is no need to say their manipulating ideas or concepts because in the end, we're dealing normally with stuff that can be summarized with cursed energy something that is in of itself actual not conceptual.
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But for cursed techniques everyone agrees, right? Even @Outcast agrees on this point
Theendzero13
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Cursed Techniques should have invulnerability i guess, like things like dagon's water should not be possible to destroy without cursed energy same for jogo's fire , hanami's plants, higuruma's hammer etc
This should aply to domains and some types of barriers as well i think
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I mean you haven't really demonstrated why this would be the case.
Not really. The narrative actually has been pretty ambiguous as to the actual ontology of souls and the body. For instance, it was first framed as the soul being a prior to the body, with Gege sowing hints of the body possessing weird characteristics. This was then flipped on the reader during Shibuya when Not Getou discusses the soul and body being one and the same (matter and spirit) which is a callback to Todo also reciting this when training Yuji how to control his energy better "We exist as one mind, soul, and body as a whole". Which was then further shown that information is what dictates the whole soul/matter split with Principal being able to recreate souls from physical information and Ogami being able to summon physical information from the aether.
Not really I just gave several examples and you've yet to really substantially evidence your position outside of accusing me of complicating and appealing to things being "simple" which isn't really evidencing things that take place in the manga. I also don't understand your first point, most conceptual powers affect things that already exist. That is literally the statement that supports Gojo getting Concept manip "Infinity already exist, I just bring it into reality".
The whole idea of cursed spirits is conceptual. I don't really understand how you could argue otherwise. Cursed energy being the vehicle which allows for the esoteric stuff to occur doesn't really mean much.
If information is the inherent thing that registers something and gives it essence, it is a direct analog to concepts. That is what I am trying to explain to you. A concept is what dictates something's "form" and it allows it to possess qualities. Information can also fill this role and I gave you an example of these mechanics. So the whole reason I made the thread, was to clarify the stuff about conceptual manipulation and information manipulation. Which multiple mods have already stated can have overlap, and have agreed that information manipulation needs to be further expounded upon past basic data.
I disagree. The whole idea of cursed spirits goes against this idea. They are literally humanity's conceptions brought to life.
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I think the fact you had to make an entirely separate thread on conceptual manipulation shows how this has been made complicated enough. The idea of humanity birthing curses through their fear is also all that's ever done on the conceptual level of things, besides Gojo's cursed technique. Cursed energy itself isn't conceptual, nor are curses. Negative emotions generate cursed energy, and enough negative emotions towards a certain thing creates cursed spirits. But after that, they aren't ideas anymore they're just entities. Mahito himself describes cursed spirits as a culmination of cursed energy.
None of that has anything to do with concepts though. All that has to do is information. Which is why we should just use information manipulation instead of trying to add conceptual manipulation to the mix. The likes of Yaga and Ogami make it very clear that they mess with information and not ideas, while Mahito and Getou both acknowledge a relationship between the soul and body, neither one devolves into the idea of concepts when speaking about it. And what more, they speak about how they're all intrinsically linked which also doesn't involve concepts. It just reveals that one can manipulate the body through manipulating the soul and the inverse can be true as well. All of this boils down to information not to concepts.
Your several examples boil down to information and souls, not to concepts. And my statement is that only gojo's power relies directly on manipulating a concept. No one else does this. Limitless is just bringing the concept of infinity into reality. Only that technique really speaks of messing around with a concept or idea. In explanation for other abilites, other means explain their nature such as information. The series itself directly acknowledges the idea of conceptual manipulation but only awards the usage of it to Limitless.
I agree that Cursed Spirits come about through conceptual means, but they themselves are not concepts. They are still composed of cursed energy and not an idea.
And information in of itself is not equal to concepts. Information is not abstract. That's why we consider them separate on the wiki and in life in general. And the verse itself draws this line for us, the idea of Toji wasn't brought back, he was. The idea of a soul isn't copied, the soul itself is. All of these things are treated as actual in-verse, not as abstract.
Just because they can have overlap, that doesn't mean they overlap here.
Which is why I'm sure if you brought any of those mods over here and they were shown what the series shows us, I don't think they'd agree.
We have a power that covers all of this, that's information manipulation. Not concept manipulation.
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Because the forum needed to update the way it indexes powers? I don't understand this point, did you read the whole thread and what it's about?
Ok so you are saying that humans have the inherent ability to manifest their concepts as actual substantial things utilizing cursed energy? Cause it sounds like we agree.
Disagree.
How do you know that? It can clearly interact with concepts/abstract info, and is birthed directly from conceptual activity. It is generated by humans experiencing concepts and literally warping reality to manifest said concepts as beings.
Curses are 100% conceptual. Once again, several other verses have this same thing. The fact that curses have abstract existence also speaks on this. Mahito himself even recognizes the power that concepts have over humans.
I don't think you are understanding my overarching point or the point of the thread that was made.
Outside of you completely neglecting the conceptual power of human thought to manifest concepts and subjective reality, please digest my full argument:
- Abstract information manipulation is an analog to concept manipulation. Both things affect the "essence" of a thing.
- The wiki does not index for said type of info manipulation and other verses with similar mechanics got concept manip of varying levels.
- Humans due possess inherent conceptual power with their thoughts, feelings, and "images" )concepts. Once again, cursed energy being the vehicle doesn't mean much.
- As Yuri discussed in the thread, there is an inherent crossover between some of these powers and even stated it qualifies for type 3 concept manip.
So yes, the topic does warrant discussion and elaboration, which is the whole reason I made the thread and tagged relevant staff for.
No. Ogami and Principal specifically manipulate the information that allows for those things to even have duality in the first place, meaning it dictates essence. Which is the whole point of this discussion.
Explain to me how the power "inverse" doesn't use concepts.
Imaginary Vengeful cursed spirits are literally lore concepts thought of by humans brought to life.
Also see above^
False, Gojo is one of the only ones who does so on a type 2 basis which means nothing for type 3.
Not really as I discussed above. Are you under the impression that a verse must explicitly use the word "concept" to qualify for concept manipulation? Do you understand why I am bringing up ontology and the like? (not trying to be rude genuinely curious)
They have a conceptual nature.
Explain to me why they must be mutually exclusive. I haven't really seen you substantiate this claim.
This is just wholly incorrect.
Yes, key phrasing "in general". That says nothing about instances where information plays a fundamental role in applying essence to things, which is a direct analog to concepts.
And there are multiple different types of "information" in physics, which leads me to my next point:
No. Toji's soul information was exclusively left out and only his body information was summoned. Toji regained his sentience because his body was inherently linked to his soul which is what Not Getou also discussed and highlights that the spirit/matter split is not a true mutually exclusive split of essence, and all things are fundamentally data.
I'm not sure why you don't think abstract existences can be concrete. It's fiction and several verses already have this.
And I explained why they did overlap. You have yet to actually dissect my points outside of calling them false. Which is what I am asking for.
I literally linked the thread and Yuri said what I showed qualified for type 3.
Ontological information manip, if passed, would essentially be a reskinned version of concept manip. Which once again, was the whole point of making the thread. To clarify indexing issues related to that cross over.
No we don't. Which is why I made the thread and why multiple people expressed sentiment similar to mine and why info manip needs to be changed as is being discussed in the thread.
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Yeah sure ig. I was on the fence about it but now that ive thought about the similarities between CT based stuff and curses, it makes more sense.
Tho i think there are exceptions, like higuramas hammer is his CT in a way, but it cant be indestructible. I think a better way to put it would be :
Objects which are made out of pure cursed energy are invulnerable. This would tie into techniques like Hollow purple, shikigami, Hanamis plants etc.
On a side note, what about domains? Arent they pure CE? But they are visible to non shamans no?
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regular humans can't see jujutsu
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Saw a statement similar to that, but didnt see that one.
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So yeah while waiting for my thread to conclude I will touch upon some other stuff.
- As said above jujutsu, domains, and curses and normally imperceptible to humans and also cannot be captured on recordings.
- Cursed energy causes humans to become ill, corrupted, and eventually die. Regular humans have little to no cursed resistance [2] [3] and are vulnerable to cursed physiology clashing with theirs. Sorcerors obviously get resistance.
- Curses should get portal creation [2]
- Domains should get limited Subjective Reality. Domain Expansion involves realizing one's innate domain with skill and imagination which is described as "inside the heart" and clearly exist in an abstract state outside of the normal flow of time (evidenced by Yuji and Sukuna being able to deal despite Itadori being on the brink of death). This is further evidenced by the existence of cursed spirits who simply summon their innate domain into reality such as Imaginary Vengeful Cursed Spirit Kuchisake and Sukuna. This practice being compared to drawing on air without a canvas in comparison to regular domain expansion (which creates its own space hence the "canvas").
- Gojo gets teleportation of others (via a drawn barrier)
- Kenjaku gets biological manipulation and empowerment.
- Sorcerors get enhanced physical stats and senses simply by being invigorated by cursed energy which may also back up Gojo's method of using "instinct" when facing a threat without cursed energy signature.
- Yuta gets creation [2]and some sort of form manipulation for Rika.
- As discussed and cited earlier in the thread sorcerers will get extra sensory perception for sensing cursed energy and seeing residuals/jujutsu in general.
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This has already been accepted with another scan. But it is still useful to have some more
Agreed. But I don't know how this will apply to sorcerers
This place is an Domain Expansion. I don't know if it can be classified as Portal Creation
Agreed.
This is BFR as well
Agreed
This has already been added
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Jujutsu sorcerers should also have :
Limited immortality type 4, since they can come back as curses after their death if you dont kill them with Jujutsu
Spatial manipulation and limited law manipulation for those who can use Curtain
Limited immortality type 4, since they can come back as curses after their death if you dont kill them with Jujutsu
Spatial manipulation and limited law manipulation for those who can use Curtain
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The portal was made by Choso's brothers.
Sorcs should get corruption too since it seems to be a matter of "getting cursed" and cursed energy in general.
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