Jujutsu Kaisen Hax/Ability & AP Upgrade Thread Pt. 3

[Dr._whiteee]

The total vote tally so far is:

Agree: @Dr._whiteee @LordGinSama @TheGunsFinalWrath @azontr @LIFE_OF_KING @Arkenis @Sir_sun_man

Disagree: @Maitreya (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @Tatsumi504 (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @Deagonx (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @BasedNecoScaler69 (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @Spinoirr (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @Dereck03 (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @Maverick_Zero_X (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @SunDaGamer (agreed with most besides conceptual manipulation) @Vietthai96 (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @ImmortalDread (disagrees with Buddhism scaling) @BestMGQScalerEver (disagreed with Buddhism scaling) @Dalesean027 (disagreed with Buddhism scaling) @TOAAPRESENCE1 (disagrees with Buddhism scaling).

Officially there are 3 evaluating staff disagreements for this thread and no staff agreements in regards to the proposed abilities utilizing Buddhist roots as foundation for scaling.

This thread is not to discuss Buddhist scaling. That thread has already passed and would require a separate CRT to unpass. This thread is about the application of abilities stemming from the passing of the ontology thread (which is why said thread is necessarily pre-cursory). So "disagreement with Buddhist scaling" doesn't make any sense here. You're essentially trying to hold a vote for results that have already passed in a different thread. So none of those votes bar Dereck, count as applying to any specific aspect of the blog, outside of those one would prove would be extrapolating from Buddhism. Which they themselves would also have to clarify as to which abilities count for such, given once again, my thread is already passed.

None of the Moderators have expressed the slightest notion of having read anything. They have only clarified that they disagree with "1:1 scaling based off of vague mentions that are not found in the verse." There are umpteen abilities in the OP and not one has even been mentioned by a mod outside of maybe Dereck (I don't recall him outlining anything specific just agreeing with others)? Everything else has been a parrot of the aforementioned quote, and yet, not one person can identify an ability that not has been using JJK scans for direct correlation (not counting you).

Also I would really like to highlight this post because it urked me

You shouldn’t have to read a whole blog in order to “understand the evidence” since the evidence should speak on its own and be presented for the point being argued against. If you have to say “you gotta understand the context bro” in order to try and prove your points…then that’s probably a good indication the points aren’t well founded within the series itself.

This is just outright not true and kind of points towards your intentions. You are literally using staff's "Can't use vague terminology to give 1 to 1 scaling without context" as the basis for trying to list them as disagrees for a topic passed in another CRT, all the while championing the fact that "You shouldn't have to read a whole blog in order to ""understand the evidence""". That not only undermines your point that the mods agree with (as the blog would indeed contextualize things) but also outlines your bias as you are somehow correlating more evidence to contextualize and ability with "a good indication the points aren't well founded within the series itself".

Is that the case on this wiki? Let's take a look:

DMC has two threads which contextualize the verses scaling and powers.

Twin peaks has multiple blogs contextualizing the verses powers.

Megami Tensei passed a large scale upgrade and began by posting a precursory blog.

Unsong had a huge cosmology blog for it's ratings and abilities and cross matches between Kaballah

Marvel just recently had an upgrade thread which required a pre-cursory blog

Elder Scrolls has entire books on the context behind its ratings and abilities

Blazblue has blogs that indeed act as the foundation for the powers of the verse.

These are off the top of my head. Given the scope of some of those powers and the recurrent theme of blogs preceding and/or acting as the foundation for verse upgrades, I fail to see how your conclusion follows from your premises or the contentions you have given thus far.

 

[Nierre]

(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling)(disagrees with Buddhist scaling) FRA

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I agree with Concept and some cursed technique being Concept Type 3

The way some cursed user for example like Mahito talks about Type 3 concepts born from the philosophy that caused humans to be limited as a form of self-imposed limitations and I'm pretty sure he is talking about the Concept of self on this one based on how he described it.
Though knowing Mahito's ability which basically being able to manipulate the soul of every human or touch it I would assume he control not only these concepts individually as type 3 but rather as type 2 that governs all of it on its entirety

This is a misconception, the difference between type 2 and 3 is based on the nature of the concept, not the scope as discussed here. To quote DT [1] [2]:

Hmmm... maybe a practical example makes it easier to understand.
Take Owari no Chronicle. Maybe Brunhild's first key in particular.
She can, in that key, create a small area around her in which a concept is added to the world that makes it so that if you write something an effect corresponding to what was written happens. A concept in Owari no Chronicle is something more abstract than the laws of physics (two levels more abstracts even...) and is what makes things how they are.
So her writing concept changes the nature and interaction of the things around her, even if at a much lower scale to fully 3-A. (in fact, it is an inferior copy of a low 2-C concept)
It is general, in that it doesn't apply to just one thing but in the small area changes the nature and fundamental rules for all things that needs to be changed for it to have its effect.
Actually, the verse has a metaphor in that there are a parent string vibration, that determines the concept of the world and is in every thing in the world, and additionally each individual has a child string vibration, which determines its individual properties. Brunhilds ability to add the writing concept locally changes the parent string vibration and since all objects participate by having that same parent string vibration they too are altered. Other way around, altering the child string vibration of something wouldn't alter anything, but itself. So adding concept alters parent string vibration and is hence general, even if done on a small scale. Altering just the child string vibration (which is never really done in the verse) would equate to something like property manipulation, in that it only alters a single things nature, but not the nature of things in general.

Does that make sense? I hope giving that example so out of context didn't just make it more confusing...

Hmmm if that’s the case then we should reword the definitions Imo. Because it seems you are saying affecting a universal concept over a much smaller area of effect would still count as concept manip just localized, where as mist people I have talked to say it can’t be concept manip if the effect is localized.

Yeah, I think that the idea behind calling it "universal" was right, but since it's easy to associate it with the tier its an unlucky choice of the formulation. It makes no sense that two abilities that are fundamentally the same would be considered fundamentally different types or abilities just due to tier.
Finding a good formulation to replace it with might be difficult... would need to think about how to put it well.

 

[Excellence616]

This thread is not to discuss Buddhist scaling. That thread has already passed and would require a separate CRT to unpass. This thread is about the application of abilities stemming from the passing of the ontology thread (which is why said thread is necessarily pre-cursory). So "disagreement with Buddhist scaling" doesn't make any sense here. You're essentially trying to hold a vote for results that have already passed in a different thread. So none of those votes bar Dereck, count as applying to any specific aspect of the blog, outside of those one would prove would be extrapolating from Buddhism. Which they themselves would also have to clarify as to which abilities count for such, given once again, my thread is already passed.

None of the Moderators have expressed the slightest notion of having read anything. They have only clarified that they disagree with "1:1 scaling based off of vague mentions that are not found in the verse." There are umpteen abilities in the OP and not one has even been mentioned by a mod outside of maybe Dereck (I don't recall him outlining anything specific just agreeing with others)? Everything else has been a parrot of the aforementioned quote, and yet, not one person can identify an ability that not has been using JJK scans for direct correlation (not counting you).

Also I would really like to highlight this post because it urked me


This is just outright not true and kind of points towards your intentions. You are literally using staff's "Can't use vague terminology to give 1 to 1 scaling without context" as the basis for trying to list them as disagrees for a topic passed in another CRT, all the while championing the fact that "You shouldn't have to read a whole blog in order to ""understand the evidence""". That not only undermines your point that the mods agree with (as the blog would indeed contextualize things) but also outlines your bias as you are somehow correlating more evidence to contextualize and ability with "a good indication the points aren't well founded within the series itself".

Is that the case on this wiki? Let's take a look:

DMC has two threads which contextualize the verses scaling and powers.

Twin peaks has multiple blogs contextualizing the verses powers.

Megami Tensei passed a large scale upgrade and began by posting a precursory blog.

Unsong had a huge cosmology blog for it's ratings and abilities and cross matches between Kaballah

Marvel just recently had an upgrade thread which required a pre-cursory blog

Elder Scrolls has entire books on the context behind its ratings and abilities

Blazblue has blogs that indeed act as the foundation for the powers of the verse.

Given the scope of some of those powers and the recurrent theme of blogs preceding and/or acting as the foundation for verse upgrades, I fail to see how your conclusion follows from your premises or the contentions you have given thus far.

Just update your OP by removing anything about Buddhism scaling saving it for another thread.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Just update your OP by removing anything about Buddhism scaling saving it for another thread.

Sorry but I'm not pretending I didn't get a thread passed so that other people can try to disagree with points without reading the evidence I spent time to compile. What would I be saving it for? The blog already contextualizes my points.

Removing "Buddhism scaling" would literally mean taking away JJK, that's how engrained the philosophy is to the ontology of JJK and thus its power systems.

The blog is not "Scaling" any cosmology from Buddhism directly, which is the strawman that's being thrown around here. The only relevant abilities that would have to do with his Tengen's feat of becoming one with the universe/immortality based on reaching a state of oneness with the universe, which I've also evidenced in this very thread.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

This is a misconception, the difference between type 2 and 3 is based on the nature of the concept, not the scope as discussed here. To quote DT [1] [2]:

you misunderstood me.
if you read further although Mahito talked about things of the nature of Type 3 in particular when he mentioned human's philosophy and common sense and emotion (individually a Type 3). I also said the fact that the nature of Mahito's ability is something that affects not a single individual soul but rather all of it within his reach (IIRC he did need to touch them or be in his Domain) in the way of alterations.
A Type 3 Concept can be a sub-category of an overall Type 2.
I think DT explained it as well here using the Dwarf analogy making a difference between the Concept of a Dwarf and the Concept of "that" Dwarf that makes it dwarf

Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

Hello All, The topic of this discussion is in regards to how we treat conceptual manipulation and is sort of stemming from the current JjK hax revisions thread, and this incomplete thread discussing some of the concepts I am touching upon today. Essentially, we don't really have an avenue...

vsbattles.com

 

[Dr._whiteee]

you misunderstood me.
if you read further although Mahito talked about things of the nature of Type 3 in particular when he mentioned human's philosophy and common sense and emotion (individually a Type 3). I also said the fact that the nature of Mahito's ability is something that affects not a single individual soul but rather all of it within his reach (IIRC he did need to touch them or be in his Domain) in the way of alterations.
A Type 3 Concept can be a sub-category of an overall Type 2.
I think DT explained it as well here using the Dwarf analogy making a difference between the Concept of a Dwarf and the Concept of "that" Dwarf that makes it dwarf

Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

Hello All, The topic of this discussion is in regards to how we treat conceptual manipulation and is sort of stemming from the current JjK hax revisions thread, and this incomplete thread discussing some of the concepts I am touching upon today. Essentially, we don't really have an avenue...

vsbattles.com

Oh yeah, we agree that most of the concepts referenced by Kenjaku would fall under type 3. I am saying the ones listed in OP would qualify as universals and therefore type 2.

Type 3 is not a sub-category of type 2, they have mutually exclusive natures as outlined by DT in the thread and the verse page (whose current version is a result of said thread)

The dwarf example was to distinguish between concepts type 2 and 3. Changing the concepts of dwarves over a 10m radius would be type 2 if it affected all dwarves in a particular sphere. If you could only affect one specific dwarf, then it would be a personal concept as the object is singular and specific.

 

[Maitreya12]

This thread is not to discuss Buddhist scaling. That thread has already passed and would require a separate CRT to unpass. This thread is about the application of abilities stemming from the passing of the ontology thread (which is why said thread is necessarily pre-cursory)

And those abilities are being rejected off of stemming from the application of correlating Buddhist ontology to JJK.You are discussing Buddhist scaling if you’re trying to pass abilities based off Buddhist scaling, and that standard can be changed in this thread as it relates to the standard of applying Buddhist ontology to JJK.

So none of those votes bar Dereck, count as applying to any specific aspect of the blog, outside of those one would prove would be extrapolating from Buddhism. Which they themselves would also have to clarify as to which abilities count for such, given once again, my thread is already passed.

This is another example of trying to invalidate staff voted which is a warning that placed previously on the RvT thread so I don’t recommend continuing this approach. They made their stances, they can further clarify their stances however those votes count. You can’t just say “staff votes don’t count” because you feel like it, that’s not how the wiki works. If a staff member says “I agree with the points Maitreya made” then that means the positions I made in dispute if yours are the positions that staff member is agreeing with.

You are literally using staff's "Can't use vague terminology to give 1 to 1 scaling without context" as the basis for trying to list them as disagrees for a topic passed in another CRT,

I’m listing them as disagrees because they’re saying they agree with my points and disagree with yours. Simple as,

all the while championing the fact that "You shouldn't have to read a whole blog in order to ""understand the evidence""". That not only undermines your point that the mods agree with (as the blog would indeed contextualize things) but also outlines your bias as you are somehow correlating more evidence to contextualize and ability with "a good indication the points aren't well founded within the series itself".

It doesn’t and I’ve already directly proven how the statements you make doesn’t lead to the conclusions you’re arriving at like with here when you tried to provide a scan attempting to prove JJK and Buddhism share the same “ontological underpinnings” when the scan you provided did nothing of the sort.

The scan doesn’t prove the claim you’re making. It’s only saying that Tengen has access to Sunyat barriers and the translator note clarified that Sunyata is Buddhist concept of emptiness which all things are made out of. Not that all things in JJK are made out of Sunyata like in Buddhism.

There is no statement that all things are made out of Sunyata in JJK, the author note is simply clarifying what Sunyata means in Buddhism. So no there is no evidence they share the same ontological underpinnings. Simply sharing the name “Sunyata” doesn’t equate to ontologically being the same as one another.

If you want that, you need a statement in the series saying what the translator note says, but the fact that you’re pointing to that scan is particularly strong evidence that you’re extrapolating things here since the translator’s note isn’t part of the series meaning no ontological underpinnings are being shared in the scan you provided.

The points you make in this thread and the context surrounding the scans you’re using are being discussed and disagreed with because they’re being shown how they don’t prove the claims you’re making. You’re extrapolating things and I’m showing how you’re extrapolating things based on the discussion we’re having and people are able to come to a conclusion based on that discussion and evidence presented. Saying you count have a vote in unless they meet your requirements of “understanding context” does nothing but to try to limit discussion to your favor.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

No I didn’t you trying to strawman me and lie about the position I’m making is pretty disingenuous and just straight bad faith acting.

If you please read the posts I said to you then you’d immediately see this:

That's not a strawman.

Straw Man​

"This is when one person corrupts an opponent's argument into something different, a "straw man" that they set up just to knock it down."
In this case I am not twisting what you said. Your position is quite clear.

I’m not you’re reading too deeply into what I said and totally misread. I’m not preventing anyone from reading the blog for themselves, I’m just explaining that there has been evidence presented in this thread and people disagreeing with that evidence presented isn’t a refusal to look at evidence. That’s all.

The position you come with is the same as trying to convince people to not bother with the blog and to rather focus on the OP solely. You're obviously not saying explicitly that people shouldn't read the blog, but your rhetoric does come off as such, wording matters here Maitreya. If you weren't saying that you were preventing people from reading the blog, then I hope you do look again and see that there is contradiction on your part. Thus, this is not a strawman fallacy but merely you not being consistent with your position. Perhaps your intention was not the case, of course, as I can't really read your mind. But your position comes off as contradictory and honestly the latter is quite consistent with your actions itself. So I'd say you're doing a pretty bad job at convincing people.

Me saying “I don’t think you should have to read a blog to have a position on the evidence in the thread” isn’t a position of me saying you shouldn’t read the blog. You can read the blog, but I don’t think you “have to” read the blog in order to have a position on this thread since plenty of evidence has been presented and discussed in this thread itself and people are allowed to form an opinion and conclusion from that evidence presented.

Let's have a check:

I’m not limiting anything, you’re reading too deep here. People can look at the evidence in this thread and come to a conclusion with that evidence presented. If anything you’re the one trying to limit the discussion by saying you have to read the blog “in order to understand the evidence in the OP.” The OP has presented evidence to their claims and that evidence can be discussed in regards to the points being contested.

Basically a gist of this is that you're saying we aren't obligated to read the blog. That's the same as saying we should fully ignore the context. Which is what you're doing rn. "You're trying to limit the discussion by saying you have to read the blog" Pretty much sums it up. Again, you're not being consistent with this position you supposedly have contrary to the one shown here.

No offense, but next time please properly understand the posts you’re responding to instead of accusation people of hypocrisy because it just makes you seem like the disingenuous and bad faith one in this conversation in order to try and push an agenda you support.

I know and properly understand the posts that I'm responding to. But the fact that you assume that I don't properly understand the posts I'm responding to is quite condescending. Does this sound familiar to you? Because that's what you said before.

I know the context revolving around Nirvana and it’s pretty condescending for you to just assume I don’t

also. agenda? Uh, can you tell me as to who is purposefully ignoring the whole context here when it is verbatim stated multiple times by the OP himself, that the blog is the additional context, aka full context?

Recently, I made a JJK Ontology thread that discussed the nature of the reality of the verse and its deep connection with Buddhist ontology. This thread will expand upon my last thread and also add some new abilities to the verse. I will be linking the scans to short explanations here, but full context can be found within the blog. The following additions are proposed:

I'm not the one purposefully ignoring the whole context through seperating context, nor am I the one having a view that leans towards the idea of reading only part of the context (thread) and fully ignoring the whole context (blog)
at this point you're just arguing whataboutism.

If you “can’t scale to IRL Buddhism” then you can’t use this as a basis to scale in general. You can’t cherry-pick what you’d like to accept to be applicable to JJK regarding Buddhist concepts but also like to ignore as there being differences between the two. You can’t make the claim that Tengen became one with the universe off the basis of “heaven and earth” because then you’re trying to scale to IRL Buddhism. Saying Tengen is “one with the universe” off of a heaven and earth statement is trying to shake to IRL Buddhism.

Though the fact that you're saying Dr is cherry picking is... odd. Given the fact that you and many others are doing essentially the same thing. That being you and many others not wanting to address the full context

People don’t need to prove to you that they meet your arbitrary requirement of being able to deduce whether or not you are “extrapolating abilities” or not. They can deduce that themselves by reading the arguments presented.

Like I said, you've been consistently running along with this narrative of only reading the thread and not the blog. You could say all you want about not doing so, but your own actions are quite clear.

The sources are being talked about and addressed, the primary issue is regarding the lack of sources for the claims being made.

Ignoring me telling you to address the blog directly and you saying the sources are being talked about even though you're blatantly ignoring the full context.

That is the problem people are having with the arguments you’re presenting, that too much is trying to be taken from philosophical understandings of Buddhism and placed onto JJK without any kind of substantiate evidence that prove the kinds of claims being made.

Dr white telling you to read the blog but you proceed to ignore that and only focus on the "arguments present in the thread only".

There needs to be a lot more direct evidence that Buddhism is fundamentally linked to Jujutsu in a foundational aspect than just having a statement of a character “creating Buddhism” or what have you.

All of this could be discussed more smoothly if you tried to not seperate context here.

There is no elaboration being done here, they’re just taking like terms found in the title of people’s names and equating them as foundational roots in the series

Said elaboration is based off of a context cut out from the entire context that of which you ignore time and time again through not addressing the full context itself laid out in the blog. There is more context/elaboration to be precise. But like I said, you're just not addressing it.

Just because it was accepted before doesn’t mean it can’t be rejected now. Arguments change and so do standards and if some staff members think that the arguments I’m making are convincing against the premise of your argument, then that premise could be rejected and the standard that was accepted before could be change. It’s just how the wiki works in people being able to change standards depending on the argument presented.

With all the quotes i've shown, this one does make me more skeptical about your intentions. You've consistently displayed unwillingness to address the full context blatantly, even blatantly ignoring the OP telling you to do so and to not ignore the full context, your wording and actions ALSO makes you come off with a position that tries to rhetorically convince people to read the thread only and NOT the blog. You deny this, but your own words also contradict yourself simultaneously. With that said, from this quote that I am now showing, the way you word it is quite weird. Because this is what Dr White said, (which you replied to as shown in the quote above)

Except for the stuff in the blog which was accepted that you still have yet to go through. You can't ignore the proof submitted and then argue from a position of ignorance all while claiming I'm the one stretching things.

And this is what you said:

Just because it was accepted before doesn’t mean it can’t be rejected now. Arguments change and so do standards and if some staff members think that the arguments I’m making are convincing against the premise of your argument, then that premise could be rejected and the standard that was accepted before could be change. It’s just how the wiki works in people being able to change standards depending on the argument presented.

You act as if he was saying that because it was accepted it can't be changed, which is not what he said at all. All he is telling you that you're ignoring the blog that was accepted via not addressing the full context through the blog. I'm sure you're aware of this fully well. But to make my point clear here: Not only do you continuously deny to address the blog, you're also trying to push forth a narrative that ignores the full context of the thread (which means ignoring the blog) and trying to get the blog automatically invalidated through solely attacking the thread only. Which fits in with how you just don't want to address the blog. I believe this proves your intentions quite clear here.

Anyways, I'm finished with your post. Time to tackle another one.

Since you linked my message, tell this to all the people who want my evaluations every day on my message wall and you will see how they eat you alive.

I'm not sure as to how this is relevant to what I am bringing up there.

He said, no need to read the whole blog when the evidence speaks for itself which means that it is not necessary, but if you want to go ahead, and why is it not necessary? Because the whole debate and implication is that mere vague references to a religion will not guarantee abilities in verse that have no context or elaboration in them and are only pushed based on Irl standards, and this was my opinion after participating in the ontology thread and this whole thread.

You're literally upholding the same narrative as he is doing: The attempt to deny other parts of the evidence. or to be precise: THE ACTUAL full context, which is to attack a part of the evidence and trying to invalidate the rest (the blog which is the full context actually) through that. I'm sure there exists a fallacy for this. Fallacy of composition maybe? Fallacy of composition: "assuming that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole" Except vice versa, which becomes "assuming that something false of part of a whole must also be false of the whole", with the additional context being the part of trying to to ignore the blog which is the full context of the OP.

The said evidence you speak of are referring to evidence that lacks the full context through cherry picking.

Moving on: "no context or elaboration in them" Sure, prove it.

And with respect to DarkGrath's response? I find it lame especially in the last bit of the message, but TOAA and Maitreya already clarified that comment so I won't say anything.

@TheGunsFinalWrath since you love to question the validity of the staff vote you should report it to RVT or HR.
@Maverick_Zero_X @Dalesean027 as i reported, this guy is invalidating your votes. We have literally warned other users for the same behavior.

The context in which I am questioning your votes is based on the fact that you three merely agree on two people that does not address the proper context. You being a staff doesn't mean that you get to get away scot-free when the vote you have are based on a very questionable argument that is quite shaky, and pretty much invalid from the fact that they deliberately avoid the full context of the OP. Are you seriously trying to argue that a staff vote is valid no matter the circumstances even if they're completely fallacious based on a context like the one I have shown? You keep avoiding this, so I implore you to please address this and explain, rather than deflecting with "Stop questioning me I'm a staff". Because that IS not a proper answer.

 

[Maitreya12]

I’m gonna make this it’s own post just so everyone’s aware just how badly @TheGunsFinalWrath is trying to skew my words apart.

That's not a strawman.

Yes it is. You’re not summarizing my position, your saying what you believe to be my position despite multiple people including myself telling you otherwise.

The position you come with is the same as trying to convince people to not bother with the blog and to rather focus on the OP solely. You're obviously not saying explicitly that people shouldn't read the blog, but your rhetoric does come off as such, wording matters here Maitreya

No it is not. At all, this is what the strawman fallacy is. Wording matters here Wrath, and nobody said that the blog shouldn’t be read. You’re interpreting my rhetoric to come off as such but your interpretations aren’t the truth of the matter and the fact that serval other people has said otherwise in regards to my post is evidence that my rhetoric isn’t coming off that way since nobody but you is interpreting it that way.

If you’re the only one coming to these interpretations while everyone else is saying that’s not what my posts are saying, then that’s a problem regarding your misinterpretation of my words, not my words themselves.

Basically a gist of this is that you're saying we aren't obligated to read the blog. That's the same as saying we should fully ignore the context.

No that is NOT the same as saying we should fully ignore the context. This is where the fallacy comes in, this is where the misinterpretation of my words is happening.

Me saying “you can come to a conclusion based on the discussions and evidence presented in this thread” is not the same as me saying “you should ignore everything that’s said in the blog and solely focus on this thread.”

You’re the only one who’s coming to this conclusion because you’re trying to paint what I say to mean something that I’m expressly telling you is not. That’s a problem with your understanding here, not my words.

I hope people who are following this discussion take notice of this post because I think this is an absolutely egregious example of trying to spin my words into something they’re not.

 

[Maitreya12]

.

I know and properly understand the posts that I'm responding to.

You do not because you have demonstrated to try and paint my words into a meaning that’s not been said. Every time you say I’m “purposefully ignoring context”, that’s literally just you not understanding the posts from me you’re responding to by trying to spin a different meaning than what was said.

Like I said, you've been consistently running along with this narrative of only reading the thread and not the blog. You could say all you want about not doing so, but your own actions are quite clear.

Here is more evidence you are not understanding the posts you’re responding to because I quite clearly laid out some time ago that I have read the blog and still disagree with the positions being made and expressly clarified which positions I’m taking issue with.

Your blog isn’t the end all be all of things, I read your blog and I’m still against the position you’re taking.

nobody has been going on with the narrative of only reading the thread and not the blog”, that’s simply the narrative YOU’RE trying to spin in regards to my posts and my opinions. Which is a strawman fallacy,

”You could say all you want about not doing so, but your actions are quite clear.”

Dr white telling you to read the blog but you proceed to ignore that and only focus on the "arguments present in the thread only".
All of this could be discussed more smoothly if you tried to not seperate context here.

and this is just more lying and twisting of words I’ve said, because I’ve read the blog and I’ve said I’ve read the blog, so I’m not “ignoring the OP telling me to read the blog” if I’ve literally read the blog.

Said elaboration is based off of a context cut out from the entire context that of which you ignore time and time again through not addressing the full context itself laid out in the blog. There is more context/elaboration to be precise. But like I said, you're just not addressing it.

Context isn’t being ignored because context is literally being presented to me in multiple posts and still my position of disagreement still remains because the scans being used as context do not lead to the claims being made by the OP that they are saying to me, something I expressly outline in multiple paragraphs in several posts:

The scan doesn’t prove the claim you’re making. It’s only saying that Tengen has access to Sunyat barriers and the translator note clarified that Sunyata is Buddhist concept of emptiness which all things are made out of. Not that all things in JJK are made out of Sunyata like in Buddhism.

There is no statement that all things are made out of Sunyata in JJK, the author note is simply clarifying what Sunyata means in Buddhism. So no there is no evidence they share the same ontological underpinnings. Simply sharing the name “Sunyata” doesn’t equate to ontologically being the same as one another.

If you want that, you need a statement in the series saying what the translator note says, but the fact that you’re pointing to that scan is particularly strong evidence that you’re extrapolating things here since the translator’s note isn’t part of the series meaning no ontological underpinnings are being shared in the scan you provided.

The so called “context” for these points if discussion is literally being presented before me, Dr.Whitee even said a whole bulleted outline of Samsara and Nirvana in JJK, and regardless that context didn’t substantiate the claim that was being made which again I expressly explained and outlined:

None of this goes against the idea I presented because your claim was “Tengen can’t be the earth because it’s trapped in samsara.” That was the statement you made and that statement doesn’t exist in the series and the quotes you’re presenting now doesn’t show that. Kenjaku sayinng karmic punishments exist in a binding vow=/=“earth being trapped in samsara.”

Being “trapped in samsara” has one meaning in Buddhism and no meaning in JJK because JJK has made no mention of “earth being caught in samsara” and to use that as a reason for why Tengen can’t be fused with the earth, has no basis found in the series.

You’re just ignoring the conversation being had in order to limit the discussion because it’s not going in your favor. Context is being provided and points are being made that show that the context provided still doesn’t lead to the claim that’s being made.

People can and are able to come to conclusions off of that discussion. That’s not me saying “context should be ignored” like you like to strawman me and say is my position, no, only that people are allowed to come to a conclusion off that discussion.

 

[DarkGrath]

Void Manipulation - The fundamental nature of the JJK universe is emptiness. Cursed energy and existence flicker darkly in the chaos, and we can see the same is true of the core of cursed energy, innate domains/souls, etc. Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" and calculations to manipulate this void and produce territories of their own. Advanced barrier users can even utilize Sunyata barriers to reality warp and base existence on abstract concepts. This mechanic also applies to Domain amplification, which uses this emptiness aspect to capture opponent techniques, thus neutralizing them. This should also extend to the domains of Sukuna and Kenjaku, given their ability to cast their special barrierless domains onto reality itself. As discussed in the blog, this void is a layer deeper than the type 2 info comprising existence, which itself is deeper than the spiritual/mental/physical split.

I need some elaboration on this. If it stands that 'chaos' is 'non-existence', existence 'flickers' within it, and this chaos can be warped or adjusted by these users to their benefit, then this would qualify as Void Manipulation. However, both your sources here and in the blog aren't totally clear on these premises. For one, the scan claiming that 'existence flickers darkly in the chaos' does not appear to say anything of the sort in isolation. The quote is "What I can create does not exceed the bounds of my own potential. The answer is always flickering darkly in chaos." - without context, I don't see how you'd infer 'existence' as a whole from this statement. On a similar line of thought, these scans aren't overly clear that this 'chaos' is the inverse of existence, or non-existence. Even if these users can manipulate this chaos, it's not necessarily Void Manipulation without more to it. These scans largely circle around the topic without honing in on anything definitive. If possible, please provide something concrete regarding chaos being non-existence.

Reality Warping - Kenjaku and Sukuna currently have this for type 1 domains, but Kenjaku and Tengen should also have this application added to their profile due to their barrier skill.

To be clear, what exactly is happening in this scan? The phrasing sounds like they're warping reality to 'show one possible ending of events', which would be pretty straightforward reality warping, but it's not clear what's being depicted.

Vector Manipulation/Info analysis - Barrier users are responsible for accounting for the vector parameters of their territories and certain users can also directly control the coordinates of their domain. Advanced users can even flip their barriers' internal/external conditions and range. Additionally, all information inside of a barrier is privy to the user, with the exception being heavenly restriction users such as Maki and Toji.

This is fine.

Subjective Reality/Concept Manipulation type 3 - Barrier users utilize a "concrete image" as the base for their barrier construction. Aspects of the domain are seen as symbolic even when manifested into reality. An advanced user such as Tengen, was able to separate their consciousness from merging with the universe via barriers.

To be clear, this 'concrete image' is the idea of something tangible as manifested in one's mind and perception? If so (and it sounds like the case), this should be fine.

Limited Time Manipulation - Miyo's simple domain was able to alter the flow of time within his domain by disavowing any binding conditions within his domain.

This is fine.

Time Manipulation/Sealing/Power Nullification - The Prison Realm boundary is a barrier technique which nullifies its targets powers before sealing them in a dimension cut off from the regular flow of time.

This is fine, but I recommend you link to the translation you provided in the blog, rather than the original scan. I, and likely most evaluators for that matter, am not fluent in Japanese.

Absorption - Domain amplification absorbs enemy cursed techniques into its empty space.

This is fine.

Non-Physical Interaction - Concepts (type 2) and Void (cursed energy drives even the form of humanity from possibility and exists between mind and matter).

To be clear - you're saying people who can interact with cursed energy possess NPI for Type 2 concepts and Void because cursed energy is a type 2 concept (being an intangible 'possibility' that governs the form of all humanity) and also a void (existing between 'mind and matter')?

The scans seem to firmly support the former. The latter is a bit less clear. "The space between dream and reality is a curse." could mean more than just literally being cursed energy. I need some elaboration on the latter scan.

Mental Manipulation - Prolonged exposure to cursed energy can erode the mind [2]

This is fine.

Ressurection - Cursed energy can resurrect souls and egos into new forms until they are exorcised, or their curse is released.

Where do those scans say the things you're claiming they do? I would think the third scan may have some information, but I have no idea which translation in your blog it relates to.

Empowerment - While negative emotions largely power curses and cursed energy, curses and humans can also be empowered by the collective beliefs of humans such as with the folk god Nanami fought and Sukuna himself in his prime. This effect can also be used through conduits such as talismans (which can be used by non-sorcerors).

This is fine.

Sealing - Buddhist Sutras are capable of sealing away great evil. Additionally, sorcerers can empower themselves through heavenly restriction (as Kokichi did) and being vow (as Hakari did vs Kashimo).

This is fine, but again, I would think it'd be more practical for evaluation to link to the translation of this scan.

Non-Duality - Cursed energy arises from the inherent emptiness of reality and curses are described as between the physical and mental (see blog for reference).

What type of nonduality are you proposing, exactly?

Concept Manipulation (types 2 and 3) - Cursed techniques work by sentient beings utilizing a "target concept" which can act as the basis for the technique itself and the actual target of the technique. Mahito (with his ability to see the soul) mentions humans being dominated by these concepts which cause metabolic configurations in the soul and then body. Sukuna utilized this mechanic of Jujutsu to bypass Gojo's Infinity after learning from Mahoraga, no longer manifesting slashes at where he thought Gojo was, but instead changing his techniques target concept to existence itself, in order to encapsulate Gojo in "that world" and bypass infinity. Type 2 users currently include Gojo's Satoru for bringing the concept of Infinity into reality and extending to mathematic abstracts and control over the concept/scale of distance [2] Yuki for breaking a conceptual framework with strength, bypassing conceptual defenses, and ignoring her own concept being targeted, Yorozu for construction of a conceptual perfect sphere, and Sukuna/Mahoraga for being able to target the concept of existence in order to bypass infinity. Kenjaku's Ganesha cursed spirit and Anti-Gravity technique could potentially qualify. All other cursed techniques fall under Concept manipulation type 3 unless meeting the criteria.

This is fine.

Aura, (Grade 2 and up) responsible for - Madness, Manipulation, Empathic manipulation, and Perception manipulation - When fighting a strong grade 2 curse, both Kairi and Mai note the effects of the cursed spirit's aura to make them tremble, lose spirit, and become frightened. This aura is mentioned as capable of making normal people into a nightmarish state. This aura is described as foul and scorching.

This is fine.

Madness Manipulation/Empathic Manipulation - Sorcerors can resist the aura of sufficiently strong curses which can drive opponents into a frightened and nightmarish state.

Is this applicable to all sorcerers, or just Kairi? The scan is not clear on this point.

Mind Manipulation - Via willpower, Nobara was able to resist charming/compulsion effects from a cursed word user who had amplified his CT via talismans and an improvised domain.

This is fine.

Dimensional Travel/Dream Manipulation - Kenjaku was capable of contacting regular humans in their dreams and escorting through a realm stated to sit between "dream and reality" to a different physical place in reality.

This is fine.

Gravity Manipulation - Through his CT Anti-gravity and its reversal, Kenjaku can utilize gravity like effects to crush his opponents, impede opponent attacks, and even save himself from the ground zero effects of a blackhole.

This is fine, but I'll note that the first link is broken.

Immortality (type 6) - Kenjaku is capable of passing on his consciousness by brain hopping into new vessels.

This is fine.

Immortality (types 1, 4, & 9) - Tengen achieved the feat of becoming one with the universe. Her physical incarnations are a result of her rewriting the physical information of his vessels and separating her ego from the universe utilizing barrier jutsu.

This is fine.

Power Nullification - Tengen was able to nullify the blackhole created by Yuki (with her help) to ensure Yuki's blackhole didn't spread beyond the Sunyata barrier.

This is fine.

Causality Manipulation - Mahoraga's Dharma wheel is associated with causality and the function by which Mahoraga adapts. Mahoraga's physical adaption should be noted capable of reaching High 3-A levels depending on how complete the adaptation due to its ability to break through the infinite pressure of the perfect sphere.

This seems to be the most controversial point throughout the thread, and I can see why.

At present, I can't pass this. The issue is that, similar to my contentions with Void Manipulation, your sources on this topic circle around the core idea without directly substantiating it. You mention, for example, what Dharma entails in Buddhist philosophy, how 'Dharma' is translated as 'Phenomena', how many characters on separate occasions mention things along the lines of fate, and how the Dharma wheel adapts to phenomena in comes into contact with - all things you would expect if the Dharma Wheel entails causality manipulation. But while these are all things you would expect to see if the Dharma Wheel possesses causality manipulation, even all together, they don't prove the Dharma Wheel possesses causality manipulation; it's the difference between "A is true, therefore B is true" and "B is true, therefore A is true". Of all the things you have pointed to, what you haven't pointed to is any instance of the Dharma Wheel manipulating causality - rather, you've inferred it from a long list of things that can very well exist without the Dharma Wheel possessing such a characteristic. Until you can point to a direct feat or showing of this, or a truly deductive inference, this would be inappropriate to index.

Concept Manipulation (type 2) - Mahoraga was able to nullify Gojo's infinity, by both changing its essence and by targeting all of existence to reach Gojo.

This scan doesn't say anything. Please elaborate.

Information Manipulation (type 2)/ Informational analysis - Mahoraga adapts to the fundamental information presented to him via attacks or exposure, this in turn allows him to analyze the information and adapt his own essence or capabilities to resist, become immune to, or counter whatever he has codified.

Information Analysis is fine. Information Manipulation is a bit more contentious - merely being able to adapt one's essence or capabilities on the basis of information doesn't inherently entail manipulating the information itself. Can you expand on this?

Blackhole Creation - As a last resort, Yuki can make her mass so dense that she causes the creation of a blackhole. Yuki was also able to utilize her technique to contribute to neutralizing the very same blackhole.

This is fine.

Resistance to Possession - Thanks to his heavenly restricted body Toji was able to overwrite the soul information of Ogami's grandson after she summoned only his body information for her grandson's soul to inhabit. This should also extend to Megumi (though to a much lesser extent obviously) who was able to resist Sukuna's attempts at hurting his allies, and whose soul was not completely demolished by Sukuna's Kodoku bath.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you've said here. If my understanding is correct - Toji 'overwriting' the soul information of Ogami's grandson prevented him from inhabiting his body?

Resistance to Information analysis - Heavenly restricted persons cannot be targeted by domains that require such.

This is fine.

Information Analysis - Enlightened heavenly restriction users are able to see the "facets" or "information" of existence. So much so that the categorical distinctions between stimuli types stop existing, and users are able to extend their sensory range vastly beyond their bodies' natural range and sense through their environment, effectively "seeing the souls of inanimate objects". Gojo and Sukuna are also heavily implied to have reached this state via enlightenment after grasping the core of cursed energy.

This is fine.

I believe that is all that needs to be evaluated, but as I have mentioned, there are several points I would appreciate clarification on.

On a side-note:

And with respect to DarkGrath's response? I find it lame especially in the last bit of the message, but TOAA and Maitreya already clarified that comment so I won't say anything.

Refrain from comments like these in the future. To take and respond to criticism is a necessary aspect of any healthy debating environment - this goes regardless of whether you agree with the criticism and acknowledge it, or if you disagree with the criticism and retort it. In your circumstance, my criticism was directed towards you (among other users) for the fact that you acknowledged you had not read the evidence presented by the OP and yet were rejecting it, a manifestly poor standard for someone with evaluation rights. To brush off such criticism by calling it 'lame' is far below the level of respect I would reasonably expect from another staff member. In the interest of not derailing, I would rather we left this matter here and simply both made an effort to uphold higher standards in the future.

 

[Dereck03]

Refrain from comments like these in the future. To take and respond to criticism is a necessary aspect of any healthy debating environment - this goes regardless of whether you agree with the criticism and acknowledge it, or if you disagree with the criticism and retort it. In your circumstance, my criticism was directed towards you (among other users) for the fact that you acknowledged you had not read the evidence presented by the OP and yet were rejecting it, a manifestly poor standard for someone with evaluation rights. To brush off such criticism by calling it 'lame' is far below the level of respect I would reasonably expect from another staff member. In the interest of not derailing, I would rather we left this matter here and simply both made an effort to uphold higher standards in the future.

Show me exactly where did I ever say I didn't read the evidence shown by the OP? Let's see? I participated in the previous ontology thread, I took my time to read that entire blog and gave my approval while keeping clear that I was not familiar with Buddhism but with the tier and you know what? That thread and blog is used as an emphasis in this thread, besides I read this thread and agreed with Tatsumi's and Maitreya's points, the discussion went on and I still agreed with Maitreya's points i.e I did not agree with the OP.

And lame may not be the best word to describe it since I have ESL so I'm not the best with my use of words but if your message was directed at me then yes it's pitiful since I don't know where you got that I didn't read the thread.

It is not your duty to question a person in that way, what does it matter to you if the person has read everything or only the arguments of both sides or nothing, everyone has the right to agree with whoever they find most reliable and even more so if they provide their explanations as to why or why not they agree with the thread.

And in case you are trying to use this as an excuse, I never said I never read the thread, I said if a person agrees with the other person's opinion then so be it, don't start questioning whether or not the person has read the thread because they don't agree with you.


Edit. This matter is being handled appart so don't follow mind this comment anymore nor answer to it.

 

[DarkGrath]

@Dereck03 If you wish to expand on this matter, you may do so on my message wall. I expressed that the topic should be left there because it is a side-comment; an important one at that, but ultimately not the focus of this thread. To further debate this matter here would be derailing.

 

[Dereck03]

Okay I want to note that the matter of Dark and I has been resolved and it was all based on a misunderstanding on her part and apologies have been given and received from both, so please do not quote any comments regarding our discussion and continue with the thread.

Edit. Any comment regarding this will be deleted.

 

[Vietthai96]

Look like i need to say something

zzzz

Sorry i'm on phone so it quite hard for me to response, anyway I have been observing thing since you made your first comment, you criticized many peoples for presented their disagreement despite not reading the thread, arguments. However, that isn't the case, only me is the one who said due to the ontology blog being long, it triggered my laziness and then @TheGunsFinalWrath start asking me did you read things, then we back and forth with 9 to 10 comments with @Dereck03 decide to call out to @TheGunsFinalWrath which you already know his comment. So there is two points i want to tell you that:

1. You wrongly criticized almost everyone while the one you should direct at is me because i actually skim through both the blog and this thread. @Maitreya , @Tatsumi504 and some others actually break down each points to response to @Dr._whiteee . Idk why you came to conclusion that, almost everyone here do not read the thread and just blindly disagree

2. Now before you criticize me again, i will that yes i do not read the entire thread and just skim through the ontology blog, however if you read my comments (sorry i can't link them cause i'm on phone currently and need to go back to work soon), i evaluated and gave my opinion on what i read, i did not agree or disagree on what i did not read, you can see it such as the Dimensional Manipulation i explained why it isn't case due to not fitting with the current standard, or when i agree with everyone else that scaling to Buddhism to get Causality Manipulation and Nonduality simply because the verse have elements of Buddhism, author inspired Buddhism and then the verse have some techniques that have name related to Buddhist term is a big leap in logic, i even said to @Dr._whiteee that i do not fault hom for thinking such a way, however he made a big extrapolate and no one gonna agree with

Anyway i hope this comment clear thing up

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip

I just want your clarifications on CM type 2/3 for Cursed technique. Are you agreeing with all Cursed techniques are automatically gets CM type 2/3?

OP only posted scans for

• Yuki
• Kenjaku
• Mahito
• Gojo
• Mahogara
• Sukuna
• Yorozu (Idk how Perfect Sphere is CM type 2)

These characters are all exceptions throughout the series.

But it was never stated it applies to all cursed techniques (unless I missed something please let me know).

We have Todo cursed technique which is just teleportation/swapping. Hanami cursed technique which just manipulates plants. Same goes for Dagon which can manipulate water nothing else. Yuta who can just copy others technique. Kamo whose technique is blood manipulation in the body. So I definitely need some explanation on this case.

 

[LordGinSama]

I just want your clarifications on CM type 2/3 for Cursed technique. Are you agreeing with all Cursed techniques are automatically gets CM type 2/3?

I think it would only apply to special grades and a few other characters but I think the main point was that conceptual manipulation is a legitimate thing in the verse.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I think it would only apply to special grades and a few other characters but I think the main point was that conceptual manipulation is a legitimate thing in the verse.

I mean I agree Conceptual Manipulation in the verse is legit as we all discussed multiple times in JJK discussion thread. But to every cursed Technique it shouldn't apply that. Especially Kenjaku uses a specific curse to manipulates concepts against Yuki. Using Kenjaku Asian curse and Yuki as an example to argue every other CT is CM 2/3 seems wrong. Here Asian Ganesha curse and Yuki both are exceptional in the series.

All other cursed techniques fall under Concept manipulation type 3 unless meeting the criteria.

This is what OP proposing for.

I'm ready to change my take if Dark or someone gives a reasoning for why all CT can be considered as CM type 3.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Forgot to point out.

Type 2 users currently include Gojo's Satoru for bringing the concept of Infinity into reality and extending to mathematic abstracts and control over the concept/scale of distance [2] Yuki for breaking a conceptual framework with strength, bypassing conceptual defenses, and ignoring her own concept being targeted, Yorozu for construction of a conceptual perfect sphere, and Sukuna/Mahoraga for being able to target the concept of existence in order to bypass infinity. Kenjaku's Ganesha cursed spirit and Anti-Gravity technique could potentially qualify. All other cursed techniques fall under Concept manipulation type 3 unless meeting the criteria.

Gojo/Sukuna/Mahogara has statement for affecting somethings which governs in the world/reality so obviously agree with CM type 2.

But
How Yuki mass is CM type 2?
How Anti gravity and Ganesha is CM type 2?
How Yorozu perfect sphere is CM type 2?
Why these are not considered as personal concepts instead listed as universal concepts?

 

[DarkGrath]

I just want your clarifications on CM type 2/3 for Cursed technique. Are you agreeing with all Cursed techniques are automatically gets CM type 2/3?

OP only posted scans for

• Yuki
• Kenjaku
• Mahito
• Gojo
• Mahogara
• Sukuna
• Yorozu (Idk how Perfect Sphere is CM type 2)

These characters are all exceptions throughout the series.

But it was never stated it applies to all cursed techniques (unless I missed something please let me know).

We have Todo cursed technique which is just teleportation/swapping. Hanami cursed technique which just manipulates plants. Same goes for Dagon which can manipulate water nothing else. Yuta who can just copy others technique. Kamo whose technique is blood manipulation in the body. So I definitely need some explanation on this case.

To clarify my stance on this matter.

Dr. Whiteee's scans establish that 'cursed techniques' function by utilising a 'target concept' as a base, with the scans provided showing that the terminology used is relevant to our definitions of a concept (that is to say, the authors aren't just using the term 'concept' to describe things that aren't concepts). If this holds, then it would entail that cursed techniques function as a form of Type 3 CM at a minimum. If this is incorrect - for example, if there are types of cursed techniques that don't use a 'target concept' - then I would appreciate any evidence to the sort so I can reevaluate this.

Beyond this, I've taken the time to reevaluate the specific examples suggested for Type 2 CM. Type 2 CM, as you likely know, denotes affecting a concept which governs reality within a specific area of influence. This is contrasted with Type 3 CM, which is more broad and can be applied to purely personal concepts or concepts which are not adequately elaborated on. Adjusting the concept of time to make time freeze in a particular area would be an example of Type 2 CM (with adequate elaboration on that being the actual mechanism, of course), while adjusting the concept of 'someone's name' to take it away from them would be Type 3 CM - the former is a concept that applies to a particular, universally-applicable domain of reality, while the latter applies only to an individual and has unclear implications for reality on any other scale.

With this in mind - Sukuna/Mahogara adjusting the concept of 'existence' in order to harm someone who was otherwise untouchable should qualify for Type 2 CM. Gojo adjusting the concept of 'infinity' to bring it into tangible form within the world should also qualify for Type 2 CM. Yuki adjusting the concept of 'mass' should qualify for Type 2 CM. Having reevaluated it, I'm uncertain about Yorozu's feat - I initially interpreted it as adjusting the concept of 'sphericalness' to form a perfect sphere, but having reread the scan, the mechanism is not elaborated on. Kenjaku's CM was only presented in Dr. Whiteee's post as a possibility - a notion I don't disagree with - but I would rather index it as Type 3 without further elaboration. I didn't even interpret Dr. Whiteee as arguing for Mahito having Type 2 CM in the first place, as Mahito's scans are only referenced because they elaborate on the nature of concepts within the verse, not with any actual feats displayed on Mahito's part. Needless to say, if that was the intention, I don't agree with it.

So, for the utmost clarity - I support Sukuna, Mahogara, Gojo, and Yuki having Type 2 CM. The rest I would consider Type 3 without further elaboration.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

To clarify my stance on this matter.

Dr. Whiteee's scans establish that 'cursed techniques' function by utilising a 'target concept' as a base, with the scans provided showing that the terminology used is relevant to our definitions of a concept (that is to say, the authors aren't just using the term 'concept' to describe things that aren't concepts). If this holds, then it would entail that cursed techniques function as a form of Type 3 CM at a minimum. If this is incorrect - for example, if there are types of cursed techniques that don't use a 'target concept' - then I would appreciate any evidence to the sort so I can reevaluate this.

The scan in OP is TCB translation and

For the context Kenjaku calls Yukis Technique is a concept. This statement doesn't apply to other CT because Kenjaku only makes this statement because his special Asian cursed spirit got destroyed by Yukis technique where Asian Ganesha had a technique which can manipulate Concept.
Here is the official translation. Not saying official translation is perfect but if anyone has problem with official translation they should get the raws and check it first instead of using TCB fan translation.

Spoiler

Here Kenjaku is talking about how she defied Ganesha Conceptual Manipulation so his CT wouldn't work on Yuki.

Here Kenjaku states It's cursed spirits technique which uses concepts against obstacles.

Spoiler

Beyond this, I've taken the time to reevaluate the specific examples suggested for Type 2 CM. Type 2 CM, as you likely know, denotes affecting a concept which governs reality within a specific area of influence. This is contrasted with Type 3 CM, which is more broad and can be applied to purely personal concepts or concepts which are not adequately elaborated on. Adjusting the concept of time to make time freeze in a particular area would be an example of Type 2 CM (with adequate elaboration on that being the actual mechanism, of course), while adjusting the concept of 'someone's name' to take it away from them would be Type 3 CM - the former is a concept that applies to a particular, universally-applicable domain of reality, while the latter applies only to an individual and has unclear implications for reality on any other scale.

I agree with your point here & giving CT CM type 3. But I would suggest it should be based on case by case scenario & limited to only CT with either statement/feats/some proof for them Qualifying. Like I already gave example some Cursed techniques are just teleportation or something even simpler like Utahime cursed technique is something which just increases statistics of her or her one ally.

Spoiler

Another example would be like claiming

Ichibē Zanpackto can manipulate Concept of Names so other Zanpacktos should govern Concepts of something.Despite having no evidence.

I don't want to bring another verse as an arguments but couldn't find any better example for this case.
But this kind of thing is completely wrong. Despite CM type 3 is bottom of Conceptual Manipulation. We shouldn't just grant anything and everything CM type 3.

With this in mind - Sukuna/Mahogara adjusting the concept of 'existence' in order to harm someone who was otherwise untouchable should qualify for Type 2 CM. Gojo adjusting the concept of 'infinity' to bring it into tangible form within the world should also qualify for Type 2 CM. Yuki adjusting the concept of 'mass' should qualify for Type 2 CM. Having reevaluated it, I'm uncertain about Yorozu's feat - I initially interpreted it as adjusting the concept of 'sphericalness' to form a perfect sphere, but having reread the scan, the mechanism is not elaborated on. Kenjaku's CM was only presented in Dr. Whiteee's post as a possibility - a notion I don't disagree with - but I would rather index it as Type 3 without further elaboration. I didn't even interpret Dr. Whiteee as arguing for Mahito having Type 2 CM in the first place, as Mahito's scans are only referenced because they elaborate on the nature of concepts within the verse, not with any actual feats displayed on Mahito's part. Needless to say, if that was the intention, I don't agree with it.

So, for the utmost clarity - I support Sukuna, Mahogara, Gojo, and Yuki having Type 2 CM. The rest I would consider Type 3 without further elaboration.

Thanks for Clarifying. Yeah I don't mind Yuki getting CM type 2 for the reasons you mentioned.

Regarding context for Yorozu feat it's only construction of an Sphere feat which can create infinite pressure it was never stated or implied to be based on concepts.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I need some elaboration on this. If it stands that 'chaos' is 'non-existence', existence 'flickers' within it, and this chaos can be warped or adjusted by these users to their benefit, then this would qualify as Void Manipulation. However, both your sources here and in the blog aren't totally clear on these premises. For one, the scan claiming that 'existence flickers darkly in the chaos' does not appear to say anything of the sort in isolation. The quote is "What I can create does not exceed the bounds of my own potential. The answer is always flickering darkly in chaos." - without context, I don't see how you'd infer 'existence' as a whole from this statement. On a similar line of thought, these scans aren't overly clear that this 'chaos' is the inverse of existence, or non-existence. Even if these users can manipulate this chaos, it's not necessarily Void Manipulation without more to it. These scans largely circle around the topic without honing in on anything definitive. If possible, please provide something concrete regarding chaos being non-existence.


To be clear, what exactly is happening in this scan? The phrasing sounds like they're warping reality to 'show one possible ending of events', which would be pretty straightforward reality warping, but it's not clear what's being depicted.


This is fine.


To be clear, this 'concrete image' is the idea of something tangible as manifested in one's mind and perception? If so (and it sounds like the case), this should be fine.


This is fine.


This is fine, but I recommend you link to the translation you provided in the blog, rather than the original scan. I, and likely most evaluators for that matter, am not fluent in Japanese.


This is fine.


To be clear - you're saying people who can interact with cursed energy possess NPI for Type 2 concepts and Void because cursed energy is a type 2 concept (being an intangible 'possibility' that governs the form of all humanity) and also a void (existing between 'mind and matter')?

The scans seem to firmly support the former. The latter is a bit less clear. "The space between dream and reality is a curse." could mean more than just literally being cursed energy. I need some elaboration on the latter scan.


This is fine.


Where do those scans say the things you're claiming they do? I would think the third scan may have some information, but I have no idea which translation in your blog it relates to.


This is fine.


This is fine, but again, I would think it'd be more practical for evaluation to link to the translation of this scan.


What type of nonduality are you proposing, exactly?


This is fine.


This is fine.


Is this applicable to all sorcerers, or just Kairi? The scan is not clear on this point.


This is fine.


This is fine.


This is fine, but I'll note that the first link is broken.


This is fine.


This is fine.


This is fine.


This seems to be the most controversial point throughout the thread, and I can see why.

At present, I can't pass this. The issue is that, similar to my contentions with Void Manipulation, your sources on this topic circle around the core idea without directly substantiating it. You mention, for example, what Dharma entails in Buddhist philosophy, how 'Dharma' is translated as 'Phenomena', how many characters on separate occasions mention things along the lines of fate, and how the Dharma wheel adapts to phenomena in comes into contact with - all things you would expect if the Dharma Wheel entails causality manipulation. But while these are all things you would expect to see if the Dharma Wheel possesses causality manipulation, even all together, they don't prove the Dharma Wheel possesses causality manipulation; it's the difference between "A is true, therefore B is true" and "B is true, therefore A is true". Of all the things you have pointed to, what you haven't pointed to is any instance of the Dharma Wheel manipulating causality - rather, you've inferred it from a long list of things that can very well exist without the Dharma Wheel possessing such a characteristic. Until you can point to a direct feat or showing of this, or a truly deductive inference, this would be inappropriate to index.


This scan doesn't say anything. Please elaborate.


Information Analysis is fine. Information Manipulation is a bit more contentious - merely being able to adapt one's essence or capabilities on the basis of information doesn't inherently entail manipulating the information itself. Can you expand on this?


This is fine.


I'm not sure I fully understand what you've said here. If my understanding is correct - Toji 'overwriting' the soul information of Ogami's grandson prevented him from inhabiting his body?


This is fine.


This is fine.

I believe that is all that needs to be evaluated, but as I have mentioned, there are several points I would appreciate clarification on.

On a side-note:

Refrain from comments like these in the future. To take and respond to criticism is a necessary aspect of any healthy debating environment - this goes regardless of whether you agree with the criticism and acknowledge it, or if you disagree with the criticism and retort it. In your circumstance, my criticism was directed towards you (among other users) for the fact that you acknowledged you had not read the evidence presented by the OP and yet were rejecting it, a manifestly poor standard for someone with evaluation rights. To brush off such criticism by calling it 'lame' is far below the level of respect I would reasonably expect from another staff member. In the interest of not derailing, I would rather we left this matter here and simply both made an effort to uphold higher standards in the future.

Thank you for the detailed response. I will try respond by the end of the day with some scans for the contentions.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I dont know what is so hard to get. Kenjaku in all of his "CT's concept target" statements is talking in a general way and not as something special for Yuki. Especially in "It's a special special grade cursed spirit that use concepts against cursed technique targets", which would pretty much confirm that any CT has a target concepts, since that special grade has a technique that has a affect in any CT, not only against Yuki and such. It wasnt created only to counter Yuki and other comparable characters

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I dont know what is so hard to get. Kenjaku in all of his "CT's concept target" statements is talking in a general way and not as something special for Yuki.

Mind sending the scan for this? He never said all of his CT. Only his Asian God is stated to manipulate Concepts

Especially in "It's a special special grade cursed spirit that use concepts against cursed technique targets", which would pretty much confirm that any CT has a target concepts, since that special grade has a technique that has a affect in any CT, not only against Yuki and such. It wasnt created only to counter Yuki and other comparable characters

I'm not disagreeing with Asian God getting CM. I'm disagreeing with other characters getting CM without proof. I'm fine with Kenjaku with Asian God can have whatever CM type it gets.

Also don't forget to send the scan where Kenjaku said all of his CTs targets concepts. I don't remember him saying all of his CTs can target concepts.

 

[Maitreya12]

This is fine.

I still question the evidence for how Tengen’s immortality type 9 is being applied.

To my understanding, there needs explicit statements or showings of a person “becoming one with the universe” which they are not. At best there is a “heaven and earth” statement which doesn’t truly prove “become one with the universe” itself, and nothing in the series of JJK itself bars Tengen from becoming one with just the planet rather than the entirety of the universe which is being claimed for Tengen’s immortality type 9, so I’d just like further clarification of how this is applicable from the evidence presented if you don’t mind.

 

[SunDaGamer]

From what I've read in the official translation, "target concept" isn't really a term, Kenjaku mentions that Ganesha uses concepts against cursed technique targets and then says that Yuki's virtual mass is a concept that targets a cursed technique. From the only showing of Ganesha's technique, it seems to assign the targets of its cursed technique as obstacles (1 2) that are then removed through altering concepts somehow (an interpretation I've read is that it removed the concept of gravity from the soldiers being targeted in that instance to remove them as obstacles in Kenjaku's way). TCB's translation describes it as "entangling a concept with the technique's target" which can be interpreted slightly differently, it sounds like Ganesha is assigning targets as "obstacles" with its technique which entangles them with that concept of obstruction so that they can then be "removed." (we're probably going to have to get translations of the raws evaluated if the officials don't check out since the wiki's standard is that officials are generally prioritized over fan translations and honestly I think we need some input from knowledgeable members on concepts too)

On another note, Sukuna's technique doesn't manifest slashes on targets, he "launches" (Viz)/"sends slashes flying" (TCB) which we can see occur in multiple instances and is also still the case with his new slashes.

I think we need a direct statement of Sukuna targeting the concept of existence if we go by what the officials are saying on the conceptual shenanigans in Chapter 205, we have characters who can cut through an infinite dimension but they aren't indexed with conceptual manip or characters who can destroy the abstract concepts governing a pocket reality but only get limited type 3 conceptual manip off of that.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

On another note, Sukuna's technique doesn't manifest slashes on targets, he "launches" (Viz)/"sends slashes flying" (TCB) which we can see occur in multiple instances and is also still the case with his new slashes. I think we need a direct statement of Sukuna targeting the concept of existence if we go by what the officials are saying on the conceptual shenanigans in Chapter 205, we have characters who can cut through an infinite dimension but they aren't indexed with conceptual manip or characters who can destroy the concepts governing a pocket reality but only get limited type 3 conceptual manip off of that.

This is not a problem regarding Sukunas case. Conceptual manipulation doesn't need to work like some sure hit inside the domain and land on opponents instantaneously.
Sukuna Cutting existence still works for CM type 2 if Gojos Infinity is considered as CM type 2. Slashing Attack traveling is just how mechanism works that's all.

 

[DarkGrath]

I still question the evidence for how Tengen’s immortality type 9 is being applied.

To my understanding, there needs explicit statements or showings of a person “becoming one with the universe” which they are not. At best there is a “heaven and earth” statement which doesn’t truly prove “become one with the universe” itself, and nothing in the series of JJK itself bars Tengen from becoming one with just the planet rather than the entirety of the universe which is being claimed for Tengen’s immortality type 9, so I’d just like further clarification of how this is applicable from the evidence presented if you don’t mind.

To refer to the definition of Type 9 Immortality as denoted on the page:

"9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed."

To quote the dialogue in the provided scan:

"I am not what you see before you at this moment. My evolved soul exists all around us. As I said, my self is now the world itself. A human being who merges with me transforms into something greater than a sorcerer... as a new being that is both there and not there. I possess such techniques... so I am able to maintain this form and self-control even after evolving."

Important sections have been bolded. This dialogue explains that Tengen's form that we see in the scan is not his actual self. Rather, it is something akin to an avatar. His true self is one who has 'evolved', as he refers to it, and he describes how anything that merges with him takes on his true self by being 'both there and not there'.

Now, this is obviously interpretive, owing to the poetic nature of his dialogue, but being 'both there and not there' appears to mean 'both existing and not existing'. That, within the dichotomy of 'the things that exist' and 'the things that do not exist', his 'evolved soul' remains between them. If we take it that his 'avatar' is indeed something that exists (which appears to be the case, owing to having a physical form), that would mean that his avatar remains within the realm of 'things that exist' while his true form resides in the realm of 'things that both exist and not exist'. Therefore, there is some part of his true self, the part that 'does not exist', which is on a separate plane from his form. Referring again to the definition of transcendental immortality, having a true self that is independent of the plane in which their form can be killed (in this case, in 'existence' as a whole) would qualify. There is no need for an explicit statement of being one with the universe - all that is required is that there is some kind of separation in the plane of existence between the form and the true self.

 

[SunDaGamer]

This is not a problem regarding Sukunas case. Conceptual manipulation doesn't need to work like some sure hit inside the domain and land on opponents instantaneously.
Sukuna Cutting existence still works for CM type 2 if Gojos Infinity is considered as CM type 2. Slashing Attack traveling is just how mechanism works that's all.

Infinity's Type 2 CM justification uses the "target concept" mechanic which isn't mentioned in the official translation so we'll probably need a raw translation of that panel to get evaluated. Its other justifications of "near and far" and "infinity existing everywhere" got it rejected before

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

To refer to the definition of Type 9 Immortality as denoted on the page:

"9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed."

To quote the dialogue in the provided scan:

"I am not what you see before you at this moment. My evolved soul exists all around us. As I said, my self is now the world itself. A human being who merges with me transforms into something greater than a sorcerer... as a new being that is both there and not there. I possess such techniques... so I am able to maintain this form and self-control even after evolving."

Important sections have been bolded. This dialogue explains that Tengen's form that we see in the scan is not his actual self. Rather, it is something akin to an avatar. His true self is one who has 'evolved', as he refers to it, and he describes how anything that merges with him takes on his true self by being 'both there and not there'.

Now, this is obviously interpretive, owing to the poetic nature of his dialogue, but being 'both there and not there' appears to mean 'both existing and not existing'. That, within the dichotomy of 'the things that exist' and 'the things that do not exist', his 'evolved soul' remains between them. If we take it that his 'avatar' is indeed something that exists (which appears to be the case, owing to having a physical form), that would mean that his avatar remains within the realm of 'things that exist' while his true form resides in the realm of 'things that both exist and not exist'. Therefore, there is some part of his true self, the part that 'does not exist', which is on a separate plane from his form. Referring again to the definition of transcendental immortality, having a true self that is independent of the plane in which their form can be killed (in this case, in 'existence' as a whole) would qualify. There is no need for an explicit statement of being one with the universe - all that is required is that there is some kind of separation in the plane of existence between the form and the true self.

Honestly "the there and not there"part to me just seems to be referring to her omnipresence like how she exists everywhere but also exists in one point (Like how it's immediately followed up with how she can maintain his form even after becoming the world itself). That wouldn't really be type 9 immortality as she still exists in or as a singular plane.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

To refer to the definition of Type 9 Immortality as denoted on the page:

"9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed."

To quote the dialogue in the provided scan:

"I am not what you see before you at this moment. My evolved soul exists all around us. As I said, my self is now the world itself. A human being who merges with me transforms into something greater than a sorcerer... as a new being that is both there and not there. I possess such techniques... so I am able to maintain this form and self-control even after evolving."

Important sections have been bolded. This dialogue explains that Tengen's form that we see in the scan is not his actual self. Rather, it is something akin to an avatar. His true self is one who has 'evolved', as he refers to it, and he describes how anything that merges with him takes on his true self by being 'both there and not there'.

Now, this is obviously interpretive, owing to the poetic nature of his dialogue, but being 'both there and not there' appears to mean 'both existing and not existing'. That, within the dichotomy of 'the things that exist' and 'the things that do not exist', his 'evolved soul' remains between them. If we take it that his 'avatar' is indeed something that exists (which appears to be the case, owing to having a physical form), that would mean that his avatar remains within the realm of 'things that exist' while his true form resides in the realm of 'things that both exist and not exist'. Therefore, there is some part of his true self, the part that 'does not exist', which is on a separate plane from his form. Referring again to the definition of transcendental immortality, having a true self that is independent of the plane in which their form can be killed (in this case, in 'existence' as a whole) would qualify. There is no need for an explicit statement of being one with the universe - all that is required is that there is some kind of separation in the plane of existence between the form and the true self.

Idk if anyone presented these scans. Seems like Tengen did had his real body hidden not merged with the universe.

Though I don't think it changes anything about Immortality type 9. It should still qualify for that.

 

[DarkGrath]

Honestly "the there and not there"part to me just seems to be referring to his omnipresence like how he exists everywhere but also exists in one point (Like how it's immediately followed up with how he can maintain his form even after becoming the world itself). That wouldn't really be type 9 immortality as he still exists in or as a singular plane.

That's an interesting interpretation. Rereading the scan, I can see it's a perfectly plausible way of reading it, at least in isolation.

For now, I'll remain neutral on the transcendental immortality matter. I am curious if Dr. Whiteee would have anything to say on it.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Infinity's Type 2 CM justification uses the "target concept" mechanic which isn't mentioned in the official translation so we'll probably need a raw translation of that panel to get evaluated. Its other justifications of "near and far" and "infinity existing everywhere" got it rejected before

Sure even if Gojos Infinity qualifies for CM type 2 or not Sukuna Extension Technique does qualifies for CM type 2. What I was trying to say is just because attack travels from user to opponents doesn't disqualify for CM.

What you said about slashes traveling from users to opponents logic doesn't work. Thats what I'm trying to say. I don't remember wiki having a rule like that just because attack travels from user to Opponents CM should be disqualified like that.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Sure even if Gojos CM type 2 or not Sukuna Extension Technique does qualifies for CM type 2. What I was trying to say is just because attack travels from user to opponents doesn't disqualify for CM.

What you said about slashes traveling from users to opponents logic doesn't work. Thats what I'm trying to say. I don't remember wiki having a rule like that just because attack travels from user to Opponents CM should be disqualified like that.

Oh, that travelling part wasn't me trying to say Sukuna's slash can't be CM because they travel I was just saying they don't manifest on the target itself

 

[Maitreya12]

Yeah I think Sukuna should qualify for conceptual manipulation at least.

A statement like “Space, existence, and the world itself” kinda indicates to me something more abstract in nature that is like foundational to reality as it’s encompassing “existence” as a whole, which can hit people “because they exist within that space” I think sounds more like conceptual manipulation to me personally.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Oh, that travelling part wasn't me trying to say Sukuna's slash can't be CM because they travel I was just saying they don't manifest on the target itself

Yeah it's needs to travel but I think there is till some distance between Sukuna and Slash occurrence

Yeah I think Sukuna should qualify for conceptual manipulation at least.

A statement like “Space, existence, and the world itself” kinda indicates to me something more abstract in nature that is like foundational to reality as it’s encompassing “existence” as a whole, which can hit people “because they exist within that space” I think sounds more like conceptual manipulation to me personally.

Obviously. Sukuna normal slashes are capable of interacting with even Souls and mind like we seen with Mahito case. This new extension Technique is even far beyond that NPI/abstraction level. Additionally Sukuna Clearly mentioned He didn't targeted Gojo or infinity instead the existence inside the world which is pretty much clear.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I need some elaboration on this. If it stands that 'chaos' is 'non-existence', existence 'flickers' within it, and this chaos can be warped or adjusted by these users to their benefit, then this would qualify as Void Manipulation. However, both your sources here and in the blog aren't totally clear on these premises. For one, the scan claiming that 'existence flickers darkly in the chaos' does not appear to say anything of the sort in isolation. The quote is "What I can create does not exceed the bounds of my own potential. The answer is always flickering darkly in chaos."

So that section was to outline the point that void (labeled chaos here) is fundamental to existence. Here is the full scan where we see Kenjaku states "sorcerers (those who can use CE), non-sorcerors, and cursed spirits, all represent possibilities" which in the next scan (the one you reference) we are given the visual motif of light flickering on a black background. When Kenjaku states he tried to "bring this forth" himself he is referencing his mixing between curses and humans which is why Choso is highlighted in that panel. So this would extend to ontology of the basis of life forms would have to due with the nature of reality (and we know this extends to animals as well). This motif is something Gege does consistently when the manga addresses deeper ontological aspects.

For instance, making a distortion in space time [2] reveals this same canvas of emptiness

While regular humans would just see Sukuna hanging around, Gojo is able to see past the material world and spot the exact same canvas which houses Sukuna's and Megumi's soul [2] to see how Sukuna was adapting to his domain. We see this previously when Yuji entered Mahito's domain and forced their souls to interact, we see the same exact void pictured to visually depict this. Mahito also being the one to expressly claim that Buddhist scriptures were textbooks to controlling the soul based on his readings of the Heart Sutra ( a sutra which touches upon Sunyata) and mentions the monk can "feels souls in the dark".

Notably, when Mahito is on the verge of death we also see this background, and then immediately afterward, Mahito expands his domain and we see this same canvas hit Yuji and exclude him from the domain.

Gojo separately also discussed seeing "the core of cursed energy" during his near death which gave him enlightenment and immediate insight into how jujutsu works that he didn't have prior to getting shanked.

Finally, we see this blank Canvas again when Sukuna discusses how he bypassed Gojo's infinity, with our starry empty canvas once showing up explicitly as Sukuna mentioned targeting "existence".

I believe that should establish Sunyata being fundamental to the verse. Now as to how that relates to barriers and these upgrades?

Tengen (a verse god tier who laid the foundations for Jujutsu while also preaching Buddhism side by side) discusses with Yuki that she controls "Sunyata barriers" all across her land. She discusses that "any person familiar with barrier jutsu" would be able to configure it's structure to some extent, with particularly proficient sorcerers being able to straight up reality warp. The first clause would indicate that all barrier users can inherently interact with emptiness, hence why they'd be able to do so in the Sunyata barrier (just more freely as shown by Kenjaku) despite never being there before (remember we also saw this when Mahito materialized his first domain barrier). The second clause highlights the extent by which this emptiness can be formed with Kenjaku's reality warping and constructing reality (see circular definition) in there based on logical concepts.

The translator note on the page also directly highlights to use that the Sunyata concept comes from Buddhism and does indeed represent the foundational emptiness of reality.

- without context, I don't see how you'd infer 'existence' as a whole from this statement. On a similar line of thought, these scans aren't overly clear that this 'chaos' is the inverse of existence, or non-existence. Even if these users can manipulate this chaos, it's not necessarily Void Manipulation without more to it. These scans largely circle around the topic without honing in on anything definitive. If possible, please provide something concrete regarding chaos being non-existence.

I forgot I quoted this section and answered this up top lol. I hope the above satisfies any concerns.

To be clear, what exactly is happening in this scan? The phrasing sounds like they're warping reality to 'show one possible ending of events', which would be pretty straightforward reality warping, but it's not clear what's being depicted.

Yeah, Choso is meeting with Kenjaku to fight and initially, we only see the Sunyata barrier with white background and the tree in the background repeating. Kenjaki stops before the fight to reflect back on events that happened in the past and his projections for the future. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

This is what Tengen was referring to in this scan when discussing Sunyata/barriers.

To be clear, this 'concrete image' is the idea of something tangible as manifested in one's mind and perception? If so (and it sounds like the case), this should be fine.

Indeed, the scan posted was discussing how it was seemingly impossible to condense Domains being superimposed over reality for hundreds of meters, into the space the size of a basketball. Kusakabe muses this is typically impossible due to conceptualization issues, but that Gojo's time in the prison realm allowed him the experience of such and thus the foundation for his "image".

Tengen also states their ability to keep their consciousness (personal concept) from merging with the universe is due to barrier jutsu.

This is fine, but I recommend you link to the translation you provided in the blog, rather than the original scan. I, and likely most evaluators for that matter, am not fluent in Japanese.

Yeah I originally meant for people to come to the thread after the blog, but I do realize it'd be better to add the translations to this blog, so I will do that in a bit, although I did make an announcement of where the translations could be found at the beginning of the thread.

To be clear - you're saying people who can interact with cursed energy possess NPI for Type 2 concepts and Void because cursed energy is a type 2 concept (being an intangible 'possibility' that governs the form of all humanity) and also a void (existing between 'mind and matter')?

This would be a power for cursed energy in general, not all sorcerers. As mentioned in the blog, perception dictates what humans can interact with in the verse. So if someone can't interact with concepts, it's likely due to perception rather than a failing of CE. For instance, Maki could see cursed spirits only after unlocking her awakening, regular humans can be impacted by Curses, but won't know what is actually happening and attribute it to physical causes. Regular humans can also "see" curses by using the Sunyata principle of "seeing what's not there".

So people would only get NPI for that they showed (concept type 3 for most sorcs) but it would be listed for cursed energy overall (NPI for the other aspects has been added in previous threads so these are just the newest additions.).

The scans seem to firmly support the former. The latter is a bit less clear. "The space between dream and reality is a curse." could mean more than just literally being cursed energy. I need some elaboration on the latter scan.

That scan is in reference to curses abilities to interact with the fundamental aspect of reality. That scan is Kenjaku entering a realm implied to be "the cursed realm" which exist between the spiritual and physical. This is why Kenjaku is able to enter through dreams and physically escort people from their abstract state into a separate place in physical reality from whence they dreamt (scans can be found in the dimensional travel section). This also has to do with the Sunyata stuff I went over earlier.

On a separate but related note, Death seems to heavily correlate with curses and what Kenjaku is talking about here, hence why he is able to access dream spaces sleep being when humans return to their innate domain and cut off from the external/sleep is the cousin of death yada yada), hence why multiple people experience accelerated development/enlightenment on the verge of death [1/1.25/1.5/1.75] [2/2.5] [3], why regular humans can unlock the ability to see curses close to death, unleash CE when they die, and why people seem to go into "dream states" prior to dying, which is symbolized by the innate domain of a person (or their own personal mindscape shared by all sentient beings). [1] [2] [3/3.5] [4/4.5] [5]

Where do those scans say the things you're claiming they do? I would think the third scan may have some information, but I have no idea which translation in your blog it relates to.

Sorry this one is a pretty well known thing in the JJK verse, but when Sorcerors die, they risk coming back to life as a cursed spirits. This has happened to several famous historical figures, and the 3 houses are founded upon each of those figures coming back to life as a curse.

Naoya, used to be a sorcerer. He was killed by Maki's mom after getting beat by Maki, who used a kitchen knife with no cursed energy. Thus Naoya's hate festered and brought him back to life as a curse, until he metamorphized into his final form (this scan doesn't have a translation it's just showing his final form).

It's not an active thing which is why I just wanted listed as an ability of CE. But apparently this was already added.

What type of nonduality are you proposing, exactly?

I actually wanted help deciding this.

Is this applicable to all sorcerers, or just Kairi? The scan is not clear on this point.

Kairi is just a young girl with a sixth sense, she has will power stated over the average human. Mai also resists the same thing Kairi resists, so it seems to be a willpower thing.

But while these are all things you would expect to see if the Dharma Wheel possesses causality manipulation, even all together, they don't prove the Dharma Wheel possesses causality manipulation; it's the difference between "A is true, therefore B is true" and "B is true, therefore A is true". Of all the things you have pointed to, what you haven't pointed to is any instance of the Dharma Wheel manipulating causality - rather, you've inferred it from a long list of things that can very well exist without the Dharma Wheel possessing such a characteristic. Until you can point to a direct feat or showing of this, or a truly deductive inference, this would be inappropriate to index.

Thanks for the breakdown! All the stuff you mentioned is quite important context! But there is indeed more to this via feats as well. To briefly go over the context you mentioned, it is extremely important. Since jujutsu is conceptial in nature, it's form (manifested by abstract thought) would indeed by related to it's function. To prove this notion we have Sukuna. Sukuna and Gojo separately point out that the form of the wheel symbolizing "a perfect cycle and harmony" which is indeed a callout to the Dharma wheel in Buddhism representing the conditioned and casual nature of reality (not ultimate reality, important note). Sukuna/Gojo use this as the basis (along with his experience fighting Mahoraga) to deduce what Mahoraga's ability means. Meaning we have two qualified sorcerers actively telling us the form indeed has to do with it's powers.

Looking at the mechanisms behind the wheel we also see that the "adaptation" is granted after receiving the effect from a cause. Sukuna an Gojo discuss this when breaking down how Sukuna is adapting to Gojo's domain. gojo surmises that Megumi took the "process of adaption" (causal agent being adapted) but the "result of adaptation" was instead rerouted to Mahoraga/Sukuna. Looking at the definition of "cause and effect" we can see that mechanically the wheel is interfacing with this aspect of the phenomena it's interacting with.

Cause-and-effect

1. noting a relationship between actions or events such that one or more are the result of the other or others.

To bolster this, we also have the direct mechanism by which the Dharma wheel grants adaptation after encoding information, and this is done via "turning of the wheel" which also has great buddhist significance

The Buddha is said to have set the "wheel of dharma" in motion when he delivered his first sermon,[12] which is described in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. This "turning of the wheel" signifies a great and revolutionary change with universal consequences, brought about by an exceptional human being.

Finally, we see the wheel itself has properties not shared by Mahoraga. Mahoraga was damaged by Sukuna's domain (despite being quite tanky) and ultimately defeated by Sukuna's large scale explosion. In both instances, the wheel was completely fine, even though it did not adapt to the fire attack from Sukuna, the same attack vaporizing Mahoraga into nothing.

We only ever see the wheel be destroyed by Hollow Purple, which has exotic characteristics that don't rely on OP via utilizing imaginary mass. Pointing out that even some of the strongest attacks in the verse cannot interact with the wheel (damage it) even if the wheel hadn't been exposed to said pheonema.

This scan doesn't say anything. Please elaborate.

That attack was the "blueprint" Sukuna spoke of when discussing how he learned how to target the concept of existence to hit Gojo, Mahoraga is doing the same thing to bypass infinity here.

Information Analysis is fine. Information Manipulation is a bit more contentious - merely being able to adapt one's essence or capabilities on the basis of information doesn't inherently entail manipulating the information itself. Can you expand on this?

JJK is already accepted as having Info type 2 as the basis of the spiritual and material split for the verse. Mahoraga isn't utilizing type 1 information as the means for bypassing causality, hence why he actually has to be struck by the essence of said thing he is adapting too. So the information in that context would be type 2 as Mahoraga isn't learning info and then using a separate power. He's downloading the fundamental information and using that as the basis for his adaptation. Which is why Sukuna states the first way Mahoraga beat Infinity was impossible and the second was "nearly impossible".

I'm not sure I fully understand what you've said here. If my understanding is correct - Toji 'overwriting' the soul information of Ogami's grandson prevented him from inhabiting his body?

Yeah, basically Ogami summoned Toji's material information while leaving out his soul. Toji's body information, despite being physical, overrode the soul information of her grandson, and later also overrode the technique itself, as Toji was supposed to kill the strongest person around until he collapsed, but upon fighting his son was able to just kill himself instead of carrying out the order.

I believe that is all that needs to be evaluated, but as I have mentioned, there are several points I would appreciate clarification on.

Once again thank you for taking the time to make a detailed response. I also wanted to address the Tengen immortality stuff since I saw that was something you mentioned wanting to hear about from me. I touch upon that subject here.

Tengen is a buddha, who spread japanese buddhism, and become one with everything.
This Raw

言っただろう てんち 天地そのものが 私の自我なんだ わたし

It is as I said. I am heaven and earth itself

Clearly within the context, becoming one with the Earth would not make much sense. The concept of Nirvana also entails one's ego dissolving into the world, which is what expressly happened to Tengen. She is only around by using barriers jutsu to keep her consciousness and individuality solidified and by incarnating into a star vessel every so often. Nothing about this context points to Tengen becoming one with Earth, that would make no sense based on the scope of ontology touched upon thus far.

The whole "existing and not existing" is a call back to the Heart Sutra's main theme where "Form is emptiness and emptiness form" which was also touched on by the random non sorcerer human who could see things by not seeing them.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

From what I've read in the official translation, "target concept" isn't really a term, Kenjaku mentions that Ganesha uses concepts against cursed technique targets and then says that Yuki's virtual mass is a concept that targets a cursed technique. From the only showing of Ganesha's technique, it seems to assign the targets of its cursed technique as obstacles (1 2) that are then removed through altering concepts somehow (an interpretation I've read is that it removed the concept of gravity from the soldiers being targeted in that instance to remove them as obstacles in Kenjaku's way). TCB's translation describes it as "entangling a concept with the technique's target" which can be interpreted slightly differently, it sounds like Ganesha is assigning targets as "obstacles" with its technique which entangles them with that concept of obstruction so that they can then be "removed." (we're probably going to have to get translations of the raws evaluated if the officials don't check out since the wiki's standard is that officials are generally prioritized over fan translations and honestly I think we need some input from knowledgeable members on concepts too)

On another note, Sukuna's technique doesn't manifest slashes on targets, he "launches" (Viz)/"sends slashes flying" (TCB) which we can see occur in multiple instances and is also still the case with his new slashes.

I think we need a direct statement of Sukuna targeting the concept of existence if we go by what the officials are saying on the conceptual shenanigans in Chapter 205, we have characters who can cut through an infinite dimension but they aren't indexed with conceptual manip or characters who can destroy the abstract concepts governing a pocket reality but only get limited type 3 conceptual manip off of that.

Official translation ≠ Valid translation

 

[SunDaGamer]

So that section was to outline the point that void (labeled chaos here) is fundamental to existence. Here is the full scan where we see Kenjaku states "sorcerers (those who can use CE), non-sorcerors, and cursed spirits, all represent possibilities" which in the next scan (the one you reference) we are given the visual motif of light flickering on a black background. So this would extend to ontology of the basis of life forms would have to due with the nature of reality (and we know this extends to animals as well). This motif is something Gege does consistently when the manga addresses deeper ontological aspects.

For instance, making a distortion in space time [2] reveals this same canvas of emptiness

While regular humans would just see Sukuna hanging around, Gojo is able to see past the material world and spot the exact same canvas which houses Sukuna's and Megumi's soul to see how Sukuna was adapting to his domain. We see this previously when Yuji entered Mahito's domain and forced their souls to interact, we see the same exact void pictured to visually depict this. Mahito also being the one to expressly claim that Buddhist scriptures were textbooks to controlling the soul based on his readings of the Heart Sutra ( a sutra which touches upon Sunyata).

Gojo separately also discussed seeing "the core of cursed energy" during his near death which gave him enlightenment and immediate insight into how jujutsu works that he didn't have prior to getting shanked.

Finally, we see this blank Canvas again when Sukuna discusses how he bypassed Gojo's infinity, with our starry empty canvas once showing up explicitly as Sukuna mentioned targeting "existence".

I believe that should establish Sunyata being fundamental to the verse. Now as to how that relates to barriers and these upgrades?

Tengen (a verse god tier who laid the foundations for Jujutsu while also preaching Buddhism side by side) discusses with Yuki that she controls "Sunyata barriers" all across her land. She discusses that "any person familiar with barrier jutsu" would be able to configure it's structure to some extent, with particularly proficient sorcerers being able to straight up reality warp. The first clause would indicate that all barrier users can inherently interact with emptiness, hence why they'd be able to do so in the Sunyata barrier (just more freely as shown by Kenjaku) despite never being there before. The second clause highlights the extent by which this emptiness can be formed with Kenjaku's reality warping and constructing reality (see circular definition) in there based on logical concepts.

The translator note on the page also directly highlights to use that the Sunyata concept comes from Buddhism and does indeed represent the foundational emptiness of reality.

Kenjaku is talking about creating chaos as in "disorder and confusion" by starting the Culling Game because he cannot push the potential of Jujutsu with his own creations.

"Do you understand? What I should have created was chaos that even I could not control."

We're going to need more evidence to substantiate things like Black Flash being a representation of sunyata in the series, something that important for the series's ontology would've been referenced by Gege anywhere from within the series, volume extras, interviews or the official fanbook but something that could confirm those vital details is absent from all of those, it'd be good to have confirmation that the black backgrounds are indeed referencing sunyata and aren't just an artistic choice to represent an abstraction so I agreed with Mait's arguments in regards to this. It's also a little perplexing to me how the proposal is that the nature of the verse is non-dualistic between existence and non-existence yet non-existence at the same time.

Something like the verse being non-dualistic in regards to body and soul is something that I do agree with considering how much focus the dichotomy between the two is given within the series with Mahito saying the body isn't any different to him because he can perceive the soul, Kenjaku theorising the body and soul are one in the same foreshadowing Toji gaining consciousness despite his body being summoned as a soulless husk for someone else to use and Yaga copying soul info using body info to create sentient beings