Cursed Energy as a UES (Jujutsu Kaisen)

[Duedate8898]

Bump

 

[JnSteHar002]

This might be stupid to ask, but how do Domain Expansions factor into this?

 

[Duedate8898]

They shouldn't really, as Sukuna displays the ability to perform a domain expansion regardless of his output and the way domains are described output in relation to domain expansions is separate. Though ultimately they should be a separate thread since their scaling and nature isn't pivotal for whether or not CE is a UES

 

[JnSteHar002]

They shouldn't really, as Sukuna displays the ability to perform a domain expansion regardless of his output and the way domains are described output in relation to domain expansions is separate. Though ultimately they should be a separate thread since their scaling and nature isn't pivotal for whether or not CE is a UES

That was the only question/concern I can think off. Still in Agreement for UES!

 

[JnSteHar002]

Been a couple weeks, should we start trying to get other people involved?

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

This looks quite good as far as I can tell. CE looks pretty analogous to Chakra from Naruto, in the same way chakra powers jutsus and physical statistics, CE powers cursed techniques and physicals too.
I can see some people arguing against this, although I don’t really understand how CE contradicts the UES criteria. If we have a quick look at it, we find the following:

In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System. Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power. Visual evidence of amplification is not considered necessary.

And CE does just that, there are various explicit statements and showings of CE enhancing both physical strength and durability, which already suffice for CE to qualify as a UES.
The only possible defeaters I can think of would be there being several occasions where CTs are seen to be notably superior to CE-enhanced physical strikes, which I don’t recall being the case.

So yeah, I agree to the OP.

 

[Epyriel]

Clover, if you go further down on the page, you'll see underneath the first explanation going into UES it says: If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

And furthermore, when going into proving whether or not something is any of the three listed systems none of the requirements are that you need it to be 1-1. In fact, all we get is that in limited systems you have to prove that a similar amount of energy has to go into different attacks.

This seems fair. Needing an exact 1:1 in order to assume you can generally scale characters’ physical stats to the AP of their abilities when they draw from the same power source seems needlessly restrictive, and I doubt almost any verse that is generally accepted as a UES would actually live up to that standard.

For the Force for instance, it is true that most characters demonstrate similar physical power to their raw telekinesis, but there are notable outliers. For instance characters with a lot of natural talent and raw potential typically find it easier to channel the Force into raw augmentation leading to, for example, Savage Opress overpowering Darth Sidious in a bladelock despite being effortlessly overpowered in raw telekinesis mere moments before. Or Obi-Wan Kenobi telekinetically stalemating Darth Vader despite being easily out-muscled seconds prior.

In my eyes, the practical takeaway should be that in a UES if you are presented with a random character from the verse it would safe to assume both their physical stats and extenuating abilities would scale to the same tier. This is true in Star Wars (with only a couple notable exceptions) and similarly true in JJK. I agree with this thread.

 

[KingTempest]

This seems fair. Needing an exact 1:1 in order to assume you can generally scale characters’ physical stats to the AP of their abilities when they draw from the same power source seems needlessly restrictive, and I doubt almost any verse that is generally accepted as a UES would actually live up to that standard.

For the Force for instance, it is true that most characters demonstrate similar physical power to their raw telekinesis, but there are notable outliers. For instance characters with a lot of natural talent and raw potential typically find it easier to channel the Force into raw augmentation leading to, for example, Savage Opress overpowering Darth Sidious in a bladelock despite being effortlessly overpowered in raw telekinesis mere moments before. Or Obi-Wan Kenobi telekinetically stalemating Darth Vader despite being easily out-muscled seconds prior.

In my eyes, the practical takeaway should be that in a UES if you are presented with a random character from the verse it would safe to assume both their physical stats and extenuating abilities would scale to the same tier. This is true in Star Wars (with only a couple notable exceptions) and similarly true in JJK. I agree with this thread.

This has to be the worse reasoning I have ever seen in my life

 

[Epyriel]

This has to be the worse reasoning I have ever seen in my life

Care to elaborate?

 

[That_moron2]

Bump

 

[JnSteHar002]

Care to elaborate?

I second that

 

[Duedate8898]

@Maverick_Zero_X @Damage3245 As you were two of the three votes which originally removed the verse from UES, I would like to ask your input here. Everything is really in the OP and the main area of objection so far is Clover's post here 1,2,3.

 

[Damage3245]

I still think Clover makes the most sense here.

 

[Duedate8898]

I will of course ask in that case, the same question I asked to Clover, when has this 1-1 precedent ever actually been established or used when other verses have qualified for UES?

 

[Raiden38]

Hello there, this thread is all about getting Cursed Energy (CE) accepted as a universal energy system.

For that reason, I'll be building it up from a Limited Energy System towards a Universal Energy System. Also spoiler warnings for anyone not caught up to the current chapter of the manga.

Cursed Energy as a Limited Energy System​

CE is utilized within all Curse Techniques (CT), the series making the point that cursed energy is the fuel for CT. To be more exact, CE is likened to electricity while CTs are the electrical appliances.

Most sorcerer's possess a single CT, with the variety of attacks/moves derived from it being noted as extensions/reinterpretations and we do see that sorcerers are able to choose how much energy goes into their techniques through multiple means.
One, is through employing hand signs or chants that they've removed in mastering their CT in order to create a ritual which boost the strength of it as seen with Gojo and Sukuna

Another is through binding vows, a self-imposed law in which the user offers up something in exchnage for something else, such as Nanami with Overtime (limiting his CE usage during work hours and increasing it during Overtime hours) and Revealing His Hand (devolving the nature of his CT to his opponent) for his usage of Collapse

And finally a sorcerer can just choose to pour as much as possible into a CT as marked by Maximum Output/Stack techniques

As seen with Gojo, Uruame, Choso, and Yuta/Angel, or without mentions of Maximum Output/Stack as seen with the likes of Yuki in her final move. As a related bit, Sukuna with Cleave will adjust his output so he cuts cleanly through a target.

We also see that people who possess the same abilities can get drastically different results due to a difference in their output, illustrating that no CT should have a set amount of CE that can go into it.

Choso impressed Noritoshi with how high his compression with his Blood Manipulation is in comparison to when Noritoshi does the same move. And it is stated that Piercing Blood can be compressed to different amounts which is a techinque that relies on cursed energy to do this compression.
Sukuna's Ten Shadows are both larger and far more powerful than Megumi's of the same variant, and Sukuna can even show further power with a weaker form of these shadows than Megumi is able to with the stronger versions.
Mai is exhausted after creating a single bullet, whereas Yoruzu can create insect power-armor and keep going with ease.
Hana nearly tears apart Sukuna with her curse technique on first usage, but deals mostly superficial damage after losing her arm and growing weaker.

Cursed Energy as a Non-Physical Energy System​

I actually don't have anything to say here as everything said here will simply be restated in the CE as a UES section, so I see little point in saying it now. Especially as Cursed Energy doesn't really have many other applications of CE that aren't overtly tied to being physical.

Cursed Energy as a Universal Energy System​

So the biggest thing to demonstrate here is that the same amount of energy can go into CE Reinforcement/Output.
First thing first, someone Cursed Energy output can be applied not just to their CT but towards their physical feats too.

As seen with Yuta's battle in his Colony during the Culling Games, we're shown Yuta doing a blast of cursed energy with a swing of his katana where Ryu notes Yuta output is nothing special when he's using cursed energy blast and when they fight up close later, Yuta talks about Ryu's output being high even though its only punches and kicks being exchanged.

We then see output mentioned again when Hakari battles with Kashimo and Hakari's high output is noted to negate the effect of Kashimo's CE, this marks output in reference to defense.

For CT, we see output directly tied to CT's in Gojo's fight with Sukuna and Sukuna's battle with all the sorcerer's aftward.

Gojo's output affects both his CT as Red and Blue are now weaker but also his ability to regenerate. He then hits a blackflash and recovers his regeneration and through chants further recovers the strength of his Curse Techinques.

And with Sukuna, as the cast battles against him, he's constantly having his output lowered by Yuji so whereas before it's established that he could punch through someone and that taking his CT up close was fatal, after some strikes lowering his output his punches don't pierce through opponents even as black flashes and things like Cleave and Dismantle are tanked with little issue and as he recovers output the inverse becomes true once more.

Nanami also demonstrates that as he goes into Overtime his CT isn't just amped so too are his physical strikes as Mahito notes Nanami's overall CE has grown stronger.

People can also choose much like with Stack/Maximum Output for CTs to imbue their maximum amount of CE into either striking opponents or in tanking attacks as Yuji and Todo display in their final fight with Mahito. And as shown with the explanation given when Yuji encounters Yuta for the first time, a sorcerer can change how much energy is amping their physicals and it is a tactic to keep this amount even throughout the body up until an attack is to land. We are also shown that Binding Vows can increase physical toughness with CE through both Hakari and Cursed Naoya as both undertake binding vows of such a nature.

Finally, while I'm not sure the fully logic as to why this can serve as proof, we also know that someone have their CE/CT removed kills them as stated within the Culling Games. The background is that there are two rules within the culling games that if not followed end with something called CT Removal. Shoko theorizes this might lead to death, which Tengen directly confirms when explaining Kenjaku's true objective to the cast.

With all of that stated, I hope I've demonstrated why CE should be treated as a Universal Energy system. However before I'm completely done with this OP I will mention potential counterpoints to be made.

Ryu is the only sorcerer capable of maintaining the same output with or without his CT.​

I believe showings like of Sukuna being able to defend and tank against Gojo's CT Blue Enhanced Punches but still dodging Gojo's attacks even when Gojo lacks his CT and Yuji tanking both Sukuna's normal punches and his dismantle slashes within the same attacks demonstrates that while CT output is higher, it is still relative to output through physical attacks within the series.

Of course, the most direct example to show this is through Ryu as well. As while he is noted to be the only sorcerer capable of maintaining the same output, Yuta in his battle with him is noted to only be slightly weaker in his output. And since Yuta's output in this instance is only him manipulating raw cursed energy, not CT, this further shows that the difference in output between CT and raw usage isn't particularly large.

Edit: To further support that the difference between cursed techinque output and output for amping physicals isn't too big, since Ryu has the same output no matter what, his defense, attack, and blast are all the same. Yuta demonstrates he can hurt Ryu with a use of Thin-Ice Breaker and draw blood when swapping hands near the final end of their fight. Futhermore, we're also shown that both Rika and Yuta can deflect Ryu's granite blast with a single hand, Yuta and Rika are relative in hurting Uro at the same time, and Rika is able to hurt Ryu with a punch as well.


No other form of pushback currently comes to mind, but if it pops up it can be handled throughout the thread.

That's my OP.

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree: Clover

Hyper disagree

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.