Jujutsu Kaisen Downgrade

[Dr._whiteee]

Unfortunately idk how to make this post 'aesthetically pleasing' or 'easier to read', but...basically speed scaling tiers should be something like this:

1.) Hakari and Kashimo as the current god tiers of the verse speed wise with the lightning timing calc and both of them getting much faster over the course of the fight, with Hakari getting blitz levels of Kashimo at the end of 188. Lore/Narrative wise it also works as Kashimo is narratively the most dangerous opponent in the early parts of the Culling Games and Hakari has like 4 different statements in and out of the manga that says or implies he's above Yuta.

Full Power Sukuna and Gojo should get a likely rating for this as they 'should' scale above.

15 Finger Sukuna shouldn't scale to this though.

As for the Naobito statement, it wasn't fact, but 'Naobito is known as'. Its 'word on the street' kinda scaling.

But even then, Kashimo exists outside of the Naobito statement as he was dead when it was made. And Hakari should as well as he's

A.) Been suspended/out of the eye of the Jujutsu World for a year, so they have no idea his current strength

B.) Even assuming they know his current strength, they would have to somehow measure his speed compared to Naobito's. The 'good for nothing' High School Student with a weird technique that the higher ups hate vs a clan head leader who's ability displays his speed at all times + confuses people's perceptions if they don't understand the frame aspect.

C.) Blatantly has higher feats by narrative (straight up times lightning on panel and gets blitz levels faster, is considered to be stronger than Yuta and Tokyo School's secret weapon even with Yuta being known to all, with Naoya and Naobito scaling relative) and calcs (both the electricity speed calc and the lightning speed calc)

D.) Naobito and Naoya should be relative as the reason why Naobito was the fastest was 'strategic movement and timing', rather than having a faster version of Projection Sorcery or more raw speed. Their CT speed should be relative but Naobito moves and times things 'better' making him 'faster'.

E.) The statement was made before these characters were even introduced in the story. It was also made before Yuta returned from training in Africa, so even if you imply he was a character that was introduced, his current power would be unknown. And shonen power progression is a thing, because in the literal next arc, Naoya has feats above Naobito's, and people scale to or above Naoya

2./2.5) Next speed tier under would either be Cursed Naoya or Yuta/Ryu/Uro. I dunno who's universally considered faster, but they can't really upscale to Hakari since Hakari > Yuta, at least in terms of physical stats in context. They all should scale above human Naoya though, as human Naoya was basically cucking down to Base Yuta.



3.) Next tier would be Human Naoya, Naobito, Maki, Choso, Current Yuji and anyone who scales to them. Maki could react and has combat speed relative to Human Naoya, Choso is similar, and Yuji while injured and holding back scales to Base Yuta. Him getting 'blitzed' by Projection Sorcery isn't an anti feat as everyone that see's PS notes that it's not just speed, but 'something else' which we know is the fps aspect. So it's expected to blitz people who are off guard. Even Maki was getting blitzed by it at first even when she can react to that speed. She had to get the specific timing of the CT to counter.

That and a weaker 4 Finger Shibuya arc Yuji could 'anime speed vanish' blitz relative to the Supersonic Piercing Blood, so in terms of reactions he can see supersonic attacks, and in short burst movements he can 'blitz' them to a higher degree than Hakari dodged the lightning. That weaker 4 Finger Yuji could also keep up with FRSS Choso in terms of combat speed, and while Choso's reactions were lower due to not focusing on his eyes, his combat speed was still somewhat relative to Naoya. Current Yuji ate 15 total fingers, got amped in the Mahito fight in Shibuya, and got amped again compared to his post Mahito fight self as that's the last version of Yuji Choso had seen before his 'Demon God' statement in the Culling Games arc. He specifically mentioned that Yuji was still injured there too.

(keep in mind the fingers give Yuji more CE and base stats as current Culling Game Yuji is physically Grade 1 Sorcerer level with 0 CE in his body at all while, at full power with CE, Black Flash experience, and all that in the Goodwill though Shibuya arcs with 3 and 4 fingers, he was Grade 1 level scaling to Todo and Nanami)

Base Hakari might be able to scale to this speed as before Yuji stopped fighting back, while some blows were off guard, Hakari was able to tag and beat up an on guard Yuji for a while who was actively fighting back before being knocked out of the room. This was a fully healed Yuji compared to the injured one that 'fought' and avoided all of Base Yuta's blitz and one shot attempts. And in Yuta's first blitz attempt on Yuji, he was shown moving relative in speed to Naoya, side by side. Which is more supporting evidence that the PS's FPS is what makes things hard to react to rather than raw speed, as Yuta began speeding up after noting that Yuji was fast enough to dodge his first blitz attempt and then dodged his second.

4.) This would be where the high tier Grade 1s and some Special Grade Curses go. Shibuya Todo scales in speed to Mahito fight Yuji which is stronger than Choso fight Yuji who reacted to and 'blitzed' Piercing Blood. Yuji prior to the Choso fight was scaled to Nanami physically, so Nanami should scale. Mahito upscales above Todo and Shibuya Yuji in terms of speed due to him keeping up with both of them even with Boogie Woogie. Idk if Kamo is a high tier Grade 1, but he reacted to Supersonic Naoya without even having Flowing Red Scale activated.

And then from there we just go down. Now, for Maki and Cursed Naoya's speed concretely for rating/profile purposes, we should wait until the fight is done. We don't know if Maki failed to react or if she tried what she did before, reacted, and was just overpowered. That and if she reacts to Naoya's speed, depending on how it's done, she would be beyond mach 3. And Naoya might get faster as well.

Keep in mind, even if these characters scale to higher speeds than mach 3 in terms of reactions, short burst movements, or even combat with calcs, Projection Sorcery is unique in that those character's travel/movement speeds also scale. And if you wonder why movement speed would be considered impressive in a verse full of people that have that level of reactions and such, just look at Naoya vs Maki, where they have relative reaction and combat speeds, but Naoya had the superior movement speed and was able to bully her for it for most of the fight until she figured him out.

Before we start throwing out what's contradicting author intent and what's not, we should wait until this fight finishes as the conclusion should affect the speed scaling. If Naoya shows us more and Maki or Kamo end up with feats, then that would contradict the whole Mach 3 > downgrade.

Though High Hypersonic is sounding far fetched right about now. Supersonic to Hypersonic+ is sounding more consistent for anyone outside of tier 1

Hypersonic+ is where most people already are. We also recently have Megumi capable of slightly reacting to explosions which helps solidify the rating goven he had notably lesser reactions than even Maki recently and isn’t as physically inclined.

I disagree with only Hakari and Kashimo scaling this far as Gojo should definitely scale, and Yuta level peeps should also scale.

 

[PowerToScale]

The site has a standard regarding statements and how they are used for power scaling. The statement at hand the is that Naoya’s (curse) top speed had reached Mach 3, and that Naoya as a human was reaching speeds equal to sound, if not supersonic at his peak.

This character’s speed is being regarded as the faster than the majority, if not all other characters in the series. This statement would fall under Option 5.

• Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings.

When taking statements, a character can be upgraded (in this case downgraded) off a statement compared to a criterion:

1) If the source of the statement is reliable?​

​

Spoiler: Reliability

The statement comes from the narrator (author) of the series, meaning it comes from the current most reliable source in the series. However, when we take a look into the author, we can find a few “hi-cups” in their reliability. The author has one previous occasion made claims such as the black flash being a ^2.5 increase in strength, falling to realize its ability limitations and admits to their “stupidity” being exposed. Not only that, but the ^2.5 increases fail to follow consistency with scaling, ultimately resulting in character reaching levels to great for the series. Another instance is with Gojo technique, they author has displayed their annoyance in explaining the technique due to not being able to do so properly, resulting in other staff and external mathematicians brought by the editor of the series to do so. The author themselves have shown to not be the best when it comes to math's, already lower creditability in that department.

Am I saying the author is completely unreliable, no. However, they have shown to not be completely accurate at times and should be double checked before assuming they are correct.

2) If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?​

This one is a big yes. Throughout the series, characters have shown feats and inconsistencies towards the idea of human Naoya being sound/supersonic and his cursed self being Mach 3 at their peaks. To start of the list:

Spoiler: 1

Maki’s bullet feats- Early on in the series Maki displays feats of catching a bullet that is mere inches from her face, being quick enough, sweep it aside, resulting in Supersonic to High Hypersonic speeds. Her ability to respond and move at speeds faster than sound and Mach 3 is demonstrated by this early in the series.

Spoiler: 2

Not only that, Maki reacts to bullets that are being fired at her from close range (not point blank) at Supersonic speeds, even after correcting for correct bullet speeds in the other calculation (220-360 m/s). Additionally, there are previous instances in which she splits a bullet in two from point blank ranges and potentially avoids being hit from point blank again. Ranges closer than the feat.

Spoiler: 3-4

Another feat is Sukuna's (3 fingers) feat of blitzing Megumi resulting in Supersonic+ speeds. This feat is important as this same Sukuna is what Toji speed is referred to be comparable if not faster than, which while still slower, Megumi while on guard in Shibuya was able to still react and dodge to him. Showing Shibuya characters in at least in the Supersonic+ ranges. Sukuna’s (15 finger) feat results in him reaching Hypersonic+ levels of speed, another feat above Mach 3.

Spoiler: 5

Fumihiko Takaba's jump into the path of an explosion to halt it, which resulted in speeds of High Hypersonic, is another accomplishment depicted in the series. This would increase the number of feats for above sound.

Spoiler: 6

Yuji dodging Piercing Blood (PB) is another feat that showcases speeds greater than the sound. Piercing Blood is an attack that exceeds the speed of sound, while viz says reaches the speed of sound, it has been shown to be an incorrect translation, viz holds the status of butchering translation in the series. For the Piercing Blood there is a calculation placing it at Hypersonic+ reactions.

The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" by Yuji, initially implying it to slow down after it’s been fired. However, I believe this is not case. When taking account, the situation. The two mentions of the attack, both mention its speed surpassing sound with one only mentioning it being slow, this would be a significant feature to mention until you look at the situation. The only instance of Piercing Blood being regarded as slower later is in the fight with Choso where Yuji was attacked with the PB initially only to be followed by a secondary slash attack with the PB beam, were after experiencing them both Yuji referrers to the PB beam as the initial fast aspect, while the slash would be the slower aspect with the attack. The part of it initially surpassing sound its base speed, which can be increased as the guidebook states. Coupled by the fact that it being slowed down or slower than before is never mentioned ever besides the one time Yuji was attacked by a two attack combo, suggests my interpretation has some validity.

To give the benefit of the doubt if it slows down after it’s been fired, there is no known rate of how fast it decelerates, which leads to only assumptions. Even if you assume it be half the speed of sound (171.5 m/s) or even 1/10 of sound (34.3 m/s) would still result in supersonic reactions from Yuji. Yuji would also gain Supersonic perception from seeing it initially being faster than sound.

Spoiler: 7

Hakari (Infinite Mode) has shown to dodge lightning at point blank ranges, resulting in Massively Hypersonic+ results. While Hakari is a Top Tier-God Tier that scales above almost everybody else Human Naoyo, who is regarded to be the fastest along Naobito in the whole JJK Association, besides Gojo (faster than everyone besides Gojo), is supposedly only sound/supersonic at his top speed. This same lightning feat also had a science advisor overseeing and helping it accuracy to be lightning. The same feat lowballed heavily to electricity speeds produces Mach 6 results, still above Mach 3.

Spoiler: 8-9

Other feats included in the series that showcase such as the Hand attack by Chojuro Zenin reaching Transonic speed, and Hanami’s tree expansion reaching Supersonic speeds. Furthering the idea of characters being in the sound Mach ranges and not below it significantly.

Spoiler: 10

Kamo manages to dodge react and block Naoya’s (curse) attack resulting in Supersonic speeds. This feat is funny as it happens in the fight with Naoya (curse) where he himself acknowledges Naobito (by extension human Naoya) as the fastest sorcerers, where he gets blitz by cursed womb Naoya who would be Supersonic, but reacts the complete and faster Naoya, without any amps or help.

Essentially a character who believes the fastest characters are sound/supersonic, gets blitz by a supersonic character, only for him to react and block a faster version of that character at point blank without an increase of speed.

Spoiler: 11

Another instance of characters being in the sound/supersonic are that happens early on in the series Juzo perceiving and block sound attacks, showing relativity to those speeds, yet faster characters in later arcs are supposedly perception blitz by Sound-Mach 3 speeds.

Spoiler: 12

Uraume reacts to Piercing Blood and at point blank ranges, and managing to block the attack. Pretty simple

Spoiler: 13 linkes with 6

Naoya (human) while going at casual speeds blitz Choso and Yuji, the same Yuji who is able to perceive the initial supersonic speeds of piercing blood, and even states to be able to up his speed. This same Naoya while still casual is running circles around Choso who increased his visual acuity to perceive faster and dodges PB from close ranges, although is only sound/supersonic when going all out.

Spoiler: 14

There are also other feats such as Geto (Kenjaku) reacting and blocking to sniper fire only after the bullet has travelled close to him, and young Geto blocking bullets shoot at him from relatively close ranges.

Spoiler: Misc.

The misc. arguments are ones that aren’t concrete although potentially can be used.

Characters like Yuji (beginning or Series) and lesser Zenin members are capable of going subsonic speeds, with the difference from sound being only roughly 2 times less.

The sound users in the series aren’t treated as extreme opponents and are not even regarded for the attack speeds, while rivalling the fastest characters.

Sukuna (1 finger) is perception blitzing a curse spirit, who is able to perception blitz Beginning of Series Megumi and Yuji.

3) If the statement is only valid in the context of its setting, or if it holds up in comparison with other settings?​

Spoiler: Setting

As shown by the aforementioned feats and inconsistencies, the statement does not hold up in the setting or story. A previous statement used to justify it states the Naoya (Human) had already surpassed subsonic speeds. Key word: Already (past tense). The statement states that in their battle Naoya had already surpassed subsonic speeds and is greatly increasing speed as fight goes on, causing trouble for a worn out and wounded Maki. In the same recent chapters Maki herself says that she needs to prep for at speed of sound, yet while worn and wounded is able to count a faster than subsonic Naoya’s movements and even turn and punch a full speed Naoya before he could hit her. She also reacts to cursed womb Naoya and states he is move at supersonic speeds. She also manages to keep up with supersonic Naoya, yet is scared of him going as fast as sound.

I believe this show enough evidence that the current statements regarding speed of sound to Mach 3 speeds for the fastest JJK characters is inconsistent. While the author is the most reliable source, they have made mistakes, furthermore feats and other showings throughout the series shows that characters have plenty of moments contradicting the proposed speeds, with contradictory moments in the setting of said statements.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The site has a standard regarding statements and how they are used for power scaling. The statement at hand the is that Naoya’s (curse) top speed had reached Mach 3, and that Naoya as a human was reaching speeds equal to sound, if not supersonic at his peak.

This character’s speed is being regarded as the faster than the majority, if not all other characters in the series. This statement would fall under Option 5.

• Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings.

When taking statements, a character can be upgraded (in this case downgraded) off a statement compared to a criterion:

1) If the source of the statement is reliable?​

​

Spoiler: Reliability

The statement comes from the narrator (author) of the series, meaning it comes from the current most reliable source in the series. However, when we take a look into the author, we can find a few “hi-cups” in their reliability. The author has one previous occasion made claims such as the black flash being a ^2.5 increase in strength, falling to realize its ability limitations and admits to their “stupidity” being exposed. Not only that, but the ^2.5 increases fail to follow consistency with scaling, ultimately resulting in character reaching levels to great for the series. Another instance is with Gojo technique, they author has displayed their annoyance in explaining the technique due to not being able to do so properly, resulting in other staff and external mathematicians brought by the editor of the series to do so. The author themselves have shown to not be the best when it comes to math's, already lower creditability in that department.

Am I saying the author is completely unreliable, no. However, they have shown to not be completely accurate at times and should be double checked before assuming they are correct.

2) If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?​

This one is a big yes. Throughout the series, characters have shown feats and inconsistencies towards the idea of human Naoya being sound/supersonic and his cursed self being Mach 3 at their peaks. To start of the list:

Spoiler: 1

Maki’s bullet feats- Early on in the series Maki displays feats of catching a bullet that is mere inches from her face, being quick enough, sweep it aside, resulting in Supersonic to High Hypersonic speeds. Her ability to respond and move at speeds faster than sound and Mach 3 is demonstrated by this early in the series.

Spoiler: 2

Not only that, Maki reacts to bullets that are being fired at her from close range (not point blank) at Supersonic speeds, even after correcting for correct bullet speeds in the other calculation (220-360 m/s). Additionally, there are previous instances in which she splits a bullet in two from point blank ranges and potentially avoids being hit from point blank again. Ranges closer than the feat.

Spoiler: 3-4

Another feat is Sukuna's (3 fingers) feat of blitzing Megumi resulting in Supersonic+ speeds. This feat is important as this same Sukuna is what Toji speed is referred to be comparable if not faster than, which while still slower, Megumi while on guard in Shibuya was able to still react and dodge to him. Showing Shibuya characters in at least in the Supersonic+ ranges. Sukuna’s (15 finger) feat results in him reaching Hypersonic+ levels of speed, another feat above Mach 3.

Spoiler: 5

Fumihiko Takaba's jump into the path of an explosion to halt it, which resulted in speeds of High Hypersonic, is another accomplishment depicted in the series. This would increase the number of feats for above sound.

Spoiler: 6

Yuji dodging Piercing Blood (PB) is another feat that showcases speeds greater than the sound. Piercing Blood is an attack that exceeds the speed of sound, while viz says reaches the speed of sound, it has been shown to be an incorrect translation, viz holds the status of butchering translation in the series. For the Piercing Blood there is a calculation placing it at Hypersonic+ reactions.

The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" by Yuji, initially implying it to slow down after it’s been fired. However, I believe this is not case. When taking account, the situation. The two mentions of the attack, both mention its speed surpassing sound with one only mentioning it being slow, this would be a significant feature to mention until you look at the situation. The only instance of Piercing Blood being regarded as slower later is in the fight with Choso where Yuji was attacked with the PB initially only to be followed by a secondary slash attack with the PB beam, were after experiencing them both Yuji referrers to the PB beam as the initial fast aspect, while the slash would be the slower aspect with the attack. The part of it initially surpassing sound its base speed, which can be increased as the guidebook states. Coupled by the fact that it being slowed down or slower than before is never mentioned ever besides the one time Yuji was attacked by a two attack combo, suggests my interpretation has some validity.

To give the benefit of the doubt if it slows down after it’s been fired, there is no known rate of how fast it decelerates, which leads to only assumptions. Even if you assume it be half the speed of sound (171.5 m/s) or even 1/10 of sound (34.3 m/s) would still result in supersonic reactions from Yuji. Yuji would also gain Supersonic perception from seeing it initially being faster than sound.

Spoiler: 7

Hakari (Infinite Mode) has shown to dodge lightning at point blank ranges, resulting in Massively Hypersonic+ results. While Hakari is a Top Tier-God Tier that scales above almost everybody else Human Naoyo, who is regarded to be the fastest along Naobito in the whole JJK Association, besides Gojo (faster than everyone besides Gojo), is supposedly only sound/supersonic at his top speed. This same lightning feat also had a science advisor overseeing and helping it accuracy to be lightning. The same feat lowballed heavily to electricity speeds produces Mach 6 results, still above Mach 3.

Spoiler: 8-9

Other feats included in the series that showcase such as the Hand attack by Chojuro Zenin reaching Transonic speed, and Hanami’s tree expansion reaching Supersonic speeds. Furthering the idea of characters being in the sound Mach ranges and not below it significantly.

Spoiler: 10

Kamo manages to dodge react and block Naoya’s (curse) attack resulting in Supersonic speeds. This feat is funny as it happens in the fight with Naoya (curse) where he himself acknowledges Naobito (by extension human Naoya) as the fastest sorcerers, where he gets blitz by cursed womb Naoya who would be Supersonic, but reacts the complete and faster Naoya, without any amps or help.

Essentially a character who believes the fastest characters are sound/supersonic, gets blitz by a supersonic character, only for him to react and block a faster version of that character at point blank without an increase of speed.

Spoiler: 11

Another instance of characters being in the sound/supersonic are that happens early on in the series Juzo perceiving and block sound attacks, showing relativity to those speeds, yet faster characters in later arcs are supposedly perception blitz by Sound-Mach 3 speeds.

Spoiler: 12

Uraume reacts to Piercing Blood and at point blank ranges, and managing to block the attack. Pretty simple

Spoiler: 13 linkes with 6

Naoya (human) while going at casual speeds blitz Choso and Yuji, the same Yuji who is able to perceive the initial supersonic speeds of piercing blood, and even states to be able to up his speed. This same Naoya while still casual is running circles around Choso who increased his visual acuity to perceive faster and dodges PB from close ranges, although is only sound/supersonic when going all out.

Spoiler: 14

There are also other feats such as Geto (Kenjaku) reacting and blocking to sniper fire only after the bullet has travelled close to him, and young Geto blocking bullets shoot at him from relatively close ranges.

Spoiler: Misc.

The misc. arguments are ones that aren’t concrete although potentially can be used.

Characters like Yuji (beginning or Series) and lesser Zenin members are capable of going subsonic speeds, with the difference from sound being only roughly 2 times less.

The sound users in the series aren’t treated as extreme opponents and are not even regarded for the attack speeds, while rivalling the fastest characters.

Sukuna (1 finger) is perception blitzing a curse spirit, who is able to perception blitz Beginning of Series Megumi and Yuji.

3) If the statement is only valid in the context of its setting, or if it holds up in comparison with other settings?​

Spoiler: Setting

As shown by the aforementioned feats and inconsistencies, the statement does not hold up in the setting or story. A previous statement used to justify it states the Naoya (Human) had already surpassed subsonic speeds. Key word: Already (past tense). The statement states that in their battle Naoya had already surpassed subsonic speeds and is greatly increasing speed as fight goes on, causing trouble for a worn out and wounded Maki. In the same recent chapters Maki herself says that she needs to prep for at speed of sound, yet while worn and wounded is able to count a faster than subsonic Naoya’s movements and even turn and punch a full speed Naoya before he could hit her. She also reacts to cursed womb Naoya and states he is move at supersonic speeds. She also manages to keep up with supersonic Naoya, yet is scared of him going as fast as sound.

I believe this show enough evidence that the current statements regarding speed of sound to Mach 3 speeds for the fastest JJK characters is inconsistent. While the author is the most reliable source, they have made mistakes, furthermore feats and other showings throughout the series shows that characters have plenty of moments contradicting the proposed speeds, with contradictory moments in the setting of said statements.

Excellent post. Megumi is also able to react twice to explosions in his most recent fight. In the second feat he is even able to grab another person, run to a door, open the door, run in, close the door, and brace himself before the explosion completes. Should add that as another example.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The speed of the explosions does need to being mentioned though.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The speed of the explosions does need to being mentioned though.

All explosions have a bare minimum speed of 1000 m/s which is well above speed of sound. Anything under that is considered deflagration which is the speed at which flames propagate.

The second feat Megumi performs is also a gasoline explosion which has an even greater value of 1800m/s.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

All explosions have a bare minimum speed of 1000 m/s which is well above speed of sound. Anything under that is considered deflagration is the speed at which flames propagate.

The second feat Megumi performs is also a gasoline explosion which has an even greater value of 1800m/s.

This does also depend on how close they are to the explosion as well as other factors IIRC. Usually you need some timeframe as well as the distance being used in that regard although that also relies on which calcs is valid and which ones aren’t valid to use and that requires a different discussion for that topic.

The only points I see is mainly from the results being demonstrated in the fan calcs that is currently accepted and is liable to corrections. That and we going for statements vs fan calcs in these specific circumstances.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

This does also depend on how close they are to the explosion as well as other factors IIRC. Usually you need some timeframe as well as the distance being used in that regard although that also relies on which calcs is valid is used and which ones aren’t valid to use and that requires a different discussion for that topic.

The only points I see is mainly from the results being demonstrated in the fan calcs that is currently accepted and is liable to corrections. That and we going for statements vs fan calcs in these specific circumstancesx

Both times he was within 5m of the blast. There is no physically consistent way in which Megumi can perform those feats and be <<< mach 3 ( goven that if mach 3 is a cap for maki megumi scales way below).

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Hypersonic+ is where most people already are. We also recently have Megumi capable of slightly reacting to explosions which helps solidify the rating goven he had notably lesser reactions than even Maki recently and isn’t as physically inclined.

I disagree with only Hakari and Kashimo scaling this far as Gojo should definitely scale, and Yuta level peeps should also scale.

Fair enough. I just glanced around the profiles and saw High Hypersonic everywhere, but at a second glance they have the outdated scaling all around.

I think Yuta and the Sendai crew could get a possibly rating, but Yuta straight up says Hakari is stronger than him, and Gege repeats this line of thinking like 3 times outside the manga, so it's hard to say that Yuta and Hakari directly scale. I have the scans if need be, though I'm not 100% sure how accurate the translations are to be fair. And Kashimo is hyped up to be the strongest antagonist in the culling games so far at least, has the best scaling due to scaling to Hakari's feat, and scales to Hakari who at the very least physically seems to scale above Yuta to an unknown degree. It's like those 2 are in a sort of scaling bubble with each other.

At least or likely 'scale/upscale from Human Naoya' for Yuta and 'scale to Yuta' for Ryu and Uro, possibly 'scale to or downscale from Hakari and Kashimo' seems fair for Yuta and the Sendai Crew.

This part is my personal opinion, but I see Hakari and Yuta like a more powerful version of Yuji and Megumi. In an oversimplified way, one has the insane physical stats and the other isn't as strong stat wise but has the techniques and versatility. Comparable still but not purely due to stats, but rather overall package.

I'm fine with upscaling Gojo and Sukuna above Hakari and Kashimo as it makes sense. There's just no concrete line of scaling between them. Gojo upscales concretely from Naobito who Hakari and Kashimo fall outside of, but those 2 are hyped as the strongest so I don't think anyone would have issues.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Both times he was within 5m of the blast. There is no physically consistent way in which Megumi can perform those feats and be <<< mach 3 ( goven that if mach 3 is a cap for maki megumi scales way below).

Mach 3 is 2301.807 miles per hour which is 1029 meters per second so not impossible actually.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Mach 3 is 2301.807 miles per hour which is 1029 meters per second so not impossible actually.

Mach 3 is 1029 m/s. Which is just above baseline explosion level. The gasoline explosion is 1800m/s making it hypersonic.

Megumi also reacted after the explosions began meaning he outpaced their speed and this any resilt is goong to be > the speed of the blast meaning Megumi can’t be < mach 3.

and Megumi isn’t anything to high/top tiers which makes the idea that someone like current maki being unable to react to mach 3 speeds inherently ridiculous.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Fair enough. I just glanced around the profiles and saw High Hypersonic everywhere, but at a second glance they have the outdated scaling all around.

I think Yuta and the Sendai crew could get a possibly rating, but Yuta straight up says Hakari is stronger than him, and Gege repeats this line of thinking like 3 times outside the manga, so it's hard to say that Yuta and Hakari directly scale. I have the scans if need be, though I'm not 100% sure how accurate the translations are to be fair. And Kashimo is hyped up to be the strongest antagonist in the culling games so far at least, has the best scaling due to scaling to Hakari's feat, and scales to Hakari who at the very least physically seems to scale above Yuta to an unknown degree. It's like those 2 are in a sort of scaling bubble with each other.

At least or likely 'scale/upscale from Human Naoya' for Yuta and 'scale to Yuta' for Ryu and Uro, possibly 'scale to or downscale from Hakari and Kashimo' seems fair for Yuta and the Sendai Crew.

This part is my personal opinion, but I see Hakari and Yuta like a more powerful version of Yuji and Megumi. In an oversimplified way, one has the insane physical stats and the other isn't as strong stat wise but has the techniques and versatility. Comparable still but not purely due to stats, but rather overall package.

I'm fine with upscaling Gojo and Sukuna above Hakari and Kashimo as it makes sense. There's just no concrete line of scaling between them. Gojo upscales concretely from Naobito who Hakari and Kashimo fall outside of, but those 2 are hyped as the strongest so I don't think anyone would have issues.

I will respond to this more in depth tomorrow bro bro. On mobile rn so can’t really get in depth.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

fair enough, no worries

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Mach 3 is 1029 m/s. Which is just above baseline explosion level. The gasoline explosion is 1800m/s making it hypersonic.

Megumi also reacted after the explosions began meaning he outpaced their speed and this any resilt is goong to be > the speed of the blast meaning Megumi can’t be < mach 3.

and Megumi isn’t anything to high/top tiers.

Actually that depends on the type of gas being used too as it does varied.

Explosion Dynamics Laboratory

shepherd.caltech.edu

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Actually that depends on the type of gas being used too as it does varied

Hydrocarbons have a 1800m/s speed. The gasoline being used is the same for cars. Once again, even the most baseline of explosions are mach 3 and reacting to them is goong to gove a number > that so it really doesn’t even matter that much even if you lowball to the lowest number.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Explosion Dynamics Laboratory

shepherd.caltech.edu

the detonation cell width.

“Detonation This is a supersonic combustion wave. Detonations in gases propagate with velocities that range from 5 to 7 times the speed of sound in the reactants. For hydrocarbon fuels in air, the detonation velocity can be up to 1800 m/s. The ideal detonation speed, known as the Chapman-Jouguet velocity, is a function of the reactant composition, initial temperature and pressure.”

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Hydrocarbons have a 1800m/s speed. The gasoline being used is the same for cars. Once again, even the most baseline of explosions are mach 3 and reacting to them is goong to gove a number > that so it really doesn’t even matter that much even if you lowball to the lowest number.

Tbf, I not trying to deny the speed of the explosion if you attempt to accuse me of not being aware of that when I am aware of that specific fact.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The site has a standard regarding statements and how they are used for power scaling. The statement at hand the is that Naoya’s (curse) top speed had reached Mach 3, and that Naoya as a human was reaching speeds equal to sound, if not supersonic at his peak.

This character’s speed is being regarded as the faster than the majority, if not all other characters in the series. This statement would fall under Option 5.

• Option 5: The author is the one calling the Green Knight indestructible outside of the story. As the previous option, this should be examined in the context of the story. A character being described as invincible, indestructible or all powerful in one setting might not be in the same position when compared to characters from other settings.

When taking statements, a character can be upgraded (in this case downgraded) off a statement compared to a criterion:

1) If the source of the statement is reliable?​

​

Spoiler: Reliability

The statement comes from the narrator (author) of the series, meaning it comes from the current most reliable source in the series. However, when we take a look into the author, we can find a few “hi-cups” in their reliability. The author has one previous occasion made claims such as the black flash being a ^2.5 increase in strength, falling to realize its ability limitations and admits to their “stupidity” being exposed. Not only that, but the ^2.5 increases fail to follow consistency with scaling, ultimately resulting in character reaching levels to great for the series. Another instance is with Gojo technique, they author has displayed their annoyance in explaining the technique due to not being able to do so properly, resulting in other staff and external mathematicians brought by the editor of the series to do so. The author themselves have shown to not be the best when it comes to math's, already lower creditability in that department.

Am I saying the author is completely unreliable, no. However, they have shown to not be completely accurate at times and should be double checked before assuming they are correct.

2) If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?​

This one is a big yes. Throughout the series, characters have shown feats and inconsistencies towards the idea of human Naoya being sound/supersonic and his cursed self being Mach 3 at their peaks. To start of the list:

Spoiler: 1

Maki’s bullet feats- Early on in the series Maki displays feats of catching a bullet that is mere inches from her face, being quick enough, sweep it aside, resulting in Supersonic to High Hypersonic speeds. Her ability to respond and move at speeds faster than sound and Mach 3 is demonstrated by this early in the series.

Spoiler: 2

Not only that, Maki reacts to bullets that are being fired at her from close range (not point blank) at Supersonic speeds, even after correcting for correct bullet speeds in the other calculation (220-360 m/s). Additionally, there are previous instances in which she splits a bullet in two from point blank ranges and potentially avoids being hit from point blank again. Ranges closer than the feat.

Spoiler: 3-4

Another feat is Sukuna's (3 fingers) feat of blitzing Megumi resulting in Supersonic+ speeds. This feat is important as this same Sukuna is what Toji speed is referred to be comparable if not faster than, which while still slower, Megumi while on guard in Shibuya was able to still react and dodge to him. Showing Shibuya characters in at least in the Supersonic+ ranges. Sukuna’s (15 finger) feat results in him reaching Hypersonic+ levels of speed, another feat above Mach 3.

Spoiler: 5

Fumihiko Takaba's jump into the path of an explosion to halt it, which resulted in speeds of High Hypersonic, is another accomplishment depicted in the series. This would increase the number of feats for above sound.

Spoiler: 6

Yuji dodging Piercing Blood (PB) is another feat that showcases speeds greater than the sound. Piercing Blood is an attack that exceeds the speed of sound, while viz says reaches the speed of sound, it has been shown to be an incorrect translation, viz holds the status of butchering translation in the series. For the Piercing Blood there is a calculation placing it at Hypersonic+ reactions.

The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" by Yuji, initially implying it to slow down after it’s been fired. However, I believe this is not case. When taking account, the situation. The two mentions of the attack, both mention its speed surpassing sound with one only mentioning it being slow, this would be a significant feature to mention until you look at the situation. The only instance of Piercing Blood being regarded as slower later is in the fight with Choso where Yuji was attacked with the PB initially only to be followed by a secondary slash attack with the PB beam, were after experiencing them both Yuji referrers to the PB beam as the initial fast aspect, while the slash would be the slower aspect with the attack. The part of it initially surpassing sound its base speed, which can be increased as the guidebook states. Coupled by the fact that it being slowed down or slower than before is never mentioned ever besides the one time Yuji was attacked by a two attack combo, suggests my interpretation has some validity.

To give the benefit of the doubt if it slows down after it’s been fired, there is no known rate of how fast it decelerates, which leads to only assumptions. Even if you assume it be half the speed of sound (171.5 m/s) or even 1/10 of sound (34.3 m/s) would still result in supersonic reactions from Yuji. Yuji would also gain Supersonic perception from seeing it initially being faster than sound.

Spoiler: 7

Hakari (Infinite Mode) has shown to dodge lightning at point blank ranges, resulting in Massively Hypersonic+ results. While Hakari is a Top Tier-God Tier that scales above almost everybody else Human Naoyo, who is regarded to be the fastest along Naobito in the whole JJK Association, besides Gojo (faster than everyone besides Gojo), is supposedly only sound/supersonic at his top speed. This same lightning feat also had a science advisor overseeing and helping it accuracy to be lightning. The same feat lowballed heavily to electricity speeds produces Mach 6 results, still above Mach 3.

Spoiler: 8-9

Other feats included in the series that showcase such as the Hand attack by Chojuro Zenin reaching Transonic speed, and Hanami’s tree expansion reaching Supersonic speeds. Furthering the idea of characters being in the sound Mach ranges and not below it significantly.

Spoiler: 10

Kamo manages to dodge react and block Naoya’s (curse) attack resulting in Supersonic speeds. This feat is funny as it happens in the fight with Naoya (curse) where he himself acknowledges Naobito (by extension human Naoya) as the fastest sorcerers, where he gets blitz by cursed womb Naoya who would be Supersonic, but reacts the complete and faster Naoya, without any amps or help.

Essentially a character who believes the fastest characters are sound/supersonic, gets blitz by a supersonic character, only for him to react and block a faster version of that character at point blank without an increase of speed.

Spoiler: 11

Another instance of characters being in the sound/supersonic are that happens early on in the series Juzo perceiving and block sound attacks, showing relativity to those speeds, yet faster characters in later arcs are supposedly perception blitz by Sound-Mach 3 speeds.

Spoiler: 12

Uraume reacts to Piercing Blood and at point blank ranges, and managing to block the attack. Pretty simple

Spoiler: 13 linkes with 6

Naoya (human) while going at casual speeds blitz Choso and Yuji, the same Yuji who is able to perceive the initial supersonic speeds of piercing blood, and even states to be able to up his speed. This same Naoya while still casual is running circles around Choso who increased his visual acuity to perceive faster and dodges PB from close ranges, although is only sound/supersonic when going all out.

Spoiler: 14

There are also other feats such as Geto (Kenjaku) reacting and blocking to sniper fire only after the bullet has travelled close to him, and young Geto blocking bullets shoot at him from relatively close ranges.

Spoiler: Misc.

The misc. arguments are ones that aren’t concrete although potentially can be used.

Characters like Yuji (beginning or Series) and lesser Zenin members are capable of going subsonic speeds, with the difference from sound being only roughly 2 times less.

The sound users in the series aren’t treated as extreme opponents and are not even regarded for the attack speeds, while rivalling the fastest characters.

Sukuna (1 finger) is perception blitzing a curse spirit, who is able to perception blitz Beginning of Series Megumi and Yuji.

3) If the statement is only valid in the context of its setting, or if it holds up in comparison with other settings?​

Spoiler: Setting

As shown by the aforementioned feats and inconsistencies, the statement does not hold up in the setting or story. A previous statement used to justify it states the Naoya (Human) had already surpassed subsonic speeds. Key word: Already (past tense). The statement states that in their battle Naoya had already surpassed subsonic speeds and is greatly increasing speed as fight goes on, causing trouble for a worn out and wounded Maki. In the same recent chapters Maki herself says that she needs to prep for at speed of sound, yet while worn and wounded is able to count a faster than subsonic Naoya’s movements and even turn and punch a full speed Naoya before he could hit her. She also reacts to cursed womb Naoya and states he is move at supersonic speeds. She also manages to keep up with supersonic Naoya, yet is scared of him going as fast as sound.

I believe this show enough evidence that the current statements regarding speed of sound to Mach 3 speeds for the fastest JJK characters is inconsistent. While the author is the most reliable source, they have made mistakes, furthermore feats and other showings throughout the series shows that characters have plenty of moments contradicting the proposed speeds, with contradictory moments in the setting of said statements.

Most of this does not even change anything as most of those calcs I can also calc them using valid assumptions and still give you subsonic results, also disregard anything placing maki above mach 3, that is inherently wrong.

but there is something you said here that is just plain idk what to say but here

For the Piercing Blood there is a calculation placing it at Hypersonic+ reactions.

So you are saying there is a fan calc that place an attack that was given a canonical speed higher than what the author said, so the author is wrong because the calc said the speed is higher??

The attack is regarded as "fast in the beginning" by Yuji, initially implying it to slow down after it’s been fired. However, I believe this is not case.

At this point, write your own manga.

 

[Chariot190]

Might have been brought up but...
T̵h̵e̵ ̵a̵u̵t̵h̵o̵r̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵m̵s̵e̵l̵v̵e̵s̵ ̵a̵l̵l̵e̵g̵e̵d̵l̵y̵ ̵a̵l̵s̵o̵ ̵t̵h̵i̵n̵k̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵m̵a̵c̵h̵ ̵s̵p̵e̵e̵d̵ ̵s̵t̵u̵f̵f̵ ̵i̵s̵ ̵a̵ ̵b̵i̵t̵ ̵s̵u̵s̵
̵K̵i̵n̵d̵a̵ ̵a̵l̵s̵o̵ ̵i̵m̵p̵l̵i̵e̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵o̵t̵h̵e̵r̵ ̵s̵t̵u̵f̵f̵ ̵w̵a̵s̵n̵'̵t̵ ̵u̵n̵i̵n̵t̵e̵n̵t̵i̵o̵n̵a̵l̵,̵ ̵b̵u̵t̵ ̵a̵c̵t̵u̵a̵l̵l̵y̵ ̵a̵r̵e̵ ̵a̵b̵o̵v̵e̵ ̵m̵a̵c̵h̵ ̵s̵p̵e̵e̵d̵s̵ ̵i̵f̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵a̵u̵t̵h̵o̵r̵ ̵r̵e̵c̵o̵g̵n̵i̵z̵e̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵y̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵y̵ ̵w̵e̵r̵e̵ ̵f̵a̵s̵t̵e̵r̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵n̵ ̵m̵a̵c̵h̵ ̵a̵t̵ ̵a̵ ̵p̵r̵e̵v̵i̵o̵u̵s̵ ̵p̵o̵i̵n̵t̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵t̵i̵m̵e̵, t̵h̵i̵s̵ ̵w̵o̵u̵l̵d̵ ̵t̵e̵c̵h̵n̵i̵c̵a̵l̵l̵y̵ ̵m̵e̵a̵n̵ ̵n̵o̵b̵o̵d̵y̵ ̵i̵s̵ ̵w̵r̵o̵n̵g̵,̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵a̵u̵t̵h̵o̵r̵ ̵j̵u̵s̵t̵ ̵u̵n̵i̵r̵o̵n̵i̵c̵a̵l̵l̵y̵ ̵p̵u̵t̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵l̵e̵g̵i̵t̵i̵m̵a̵t̵e̵ ̵h̵i̵g̵h̵e̵r̵ ̵f̵e̵a̵t̵s̵ ̵w̵h̵i̵l̵e̵ ̵a̵l̵s̵o̵ ̵p̵u̵t̵t̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵m̵a̵c̵h̵ ̵s̵c̵a̵l̵i̵n̵g̵
a̵t̵ ̵l̵e̵a̵s̵t̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵'̵s̵ ̵w̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵I̵ ̵w̵a̵s̵ ̵t̵o̵l̵d̵ ̵w̵h̵e̵n̵ ̵I̵ ̵a̵s̵k̵e̵d̵ ̵s̵o̵m̵e̵o̵n̵e̵ ̵w̵h̵o̵ ̵k̵e̵e̵p̵s̵ ̵u̵p̵ ̵w̵i̵t̵h̵ ̵J̵J̵K̵,̵ ̵i̵d̵k̵ ̵i̵f̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵'̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵a̵c̵t̵u̵a̵l̵ ̵c̵o̵n̵t̵e̵x̵t̵ ̵a̵r̵o̵u̵n̵d̵ ̵i̵t̵

 

[PrinceofPein]

Might have been brought up but...
T̵h̵e̵ ̵a̵u̵t̵h̵o̵r̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵m̵s̵e̵l̵v̵e̵s̵ ̵a̵l̵l̵e̵g̵e̵d̵l̵y̵ ̵a̵l̵s̵o̵ ̵t̵h̵i̵n̵k̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵m̵a̵c̵h̵ ̵s̵p̵e̵e̵d̵ ̵s̵t̵u̵f̵f̵ ̵i̵s̵ ̵a̵ ̵b̵i̵t̵ ̵s̵u̵s̵
̵K̵i̵n̵d̵a̵ ̵a̵l̵s̵o̵ ̵i̵m̵p̵l̵i̵e̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵o̵t̵h̵e̵r̵ ̵s̵t̵u̵f̵f̵ ̵w̵a̵s̵n̵'̵t̵ ̵u̵n̵i̵n̵t̵e̵n̵t̵i̵o̵n̵a̵l̵,̵ ̵b̵u̵t̵ ̵a̵c̵t̵u̵a̵l̵l̵y̵ ̵a̵r̵e̵ ̵a̵b̵o̵v̵e̵ ̵m̵a̵c̵h̵ ̵s̵p̵e̵e̵d̵s̵ ̵i̵f̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵a̵u̵t̵h̵o̵r̵ ̵r̵e̵c̵o̵g̵n̵i̵z̵e̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵y̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵y̵ ̵w̵e̵r̵e̵ ̵f̵a̵s̵t̵e̵r̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵n̵ ̵m̵a̵c̵h̵ ̵a̵t̵ ̵a̵ ̵p̵r̵e̵v̵i̵o̵u̵s̵ ̵p̵o̵i̵n̵t̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵t̵i̵m̵e̵, t̵h̵i̵s̵ ̵w̵o̵u̵l̵d̵ ̵t̵e̵c̵h̵n̵i̵c̵a̵l̵l̵y̵ ̵m̵e̵a̵n̵ ̵n̵o̵b̵o̵d̵y̵ ̵i̵s̵ ̵w̵r̵o̵n̵g̵,̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵a̵u̵t̵h̵o̵r̵ ̵j̵u̵s̵t̵ ̵u̵n̵i̵r̵o̵n̵i̵c̵a̵l̵l̵y̵ ̵p̵u̵t̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵l̵e̵g̵i̵t̵i̵m̵a̵t̵e̵ ̵h̵i̵g̵h̵e̵r̵ ̵f̵e̵a̵t̵s̵ ̵w̵h̵i̵l̵e̵ ̵a̵l̵s̵o̵ ̵p̵u̵t̵t̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵m̵a̵c̵h̵ ̵s̵c̵a̵l̵i̵n̵g̵
a̵t̵ ̵l̵e̵a̵s̵t̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵'̵s̵ ̵w̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵I̵ ̵w̵a̵s̵ ̵t̵o̵l̵d̵ ̵w̵h̵e̵n̵ ̵I̵ ̵a̵s̵k̵e̵d̵ ̵s̵o̵m̵e̵o̵n̵e̵ ̵w̵h̵o̵ ̵k̵e̵e̵p̵s̵ ̵u̵p̵ ̵w̵i̵t̵h̵ ̵J̵J̵K̵,̵ ̵i̵d̵k̵ ̵i̵f̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵'̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵a̵c̵t̵u̵a̵l̵ ̵c̵o̵n̵t̵e̵x̵t̵ ̵a̵r̵o̵u̵n̵d̵ ̵i̵t̵

Has already been addressed check page 2

 

[Shey]

but there is something you said here that is just plain idk what to say but here

So you are saying there is a fan calc that place an attack that was given a canonical speed higher than what the author said, so the author is wrong because the calc said the speed is higher??

What?, it states that it Surpasses SoS, that isn't a specific speed and the calc doesn't place Piercing Blood's speed higher than the Speed Of sound it uses the bare minimum for the projectile , it's Yuji's evasive movement that has the Hypersonic+ result

 

[PrinceofPein]

What?, it states that it Surpasses SoS, that isn't a specific speed and the calc doesn't place Piercing Blood's speed higher than the Speed Of sound it uses the bare minimum for the projectile , it's Yuji's evasive movement that has the Hypersonic+ result

Again absurd
The calc places yuuji faster than piercing blood itself.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Again absurd
The calc places yuuji faster than piercing blood itself.

Yuji was faster than it though? From the perspective showing us the Supersonic Piercing Blood as something clearly visible, Yuji's speed was a blur compared to the attack. Which is only made more impressive by the fact that he started moving only after it was a few inches from his face and didn't start moving or reacting before. And him moving that fast while on guard and perceiving the Supersonic attack is supported by him being able to bring up both hands for a 2 handed guard the first time he ever experienced the attack while not aware of how fast it would be

When it comes to reacting and dodging, the closer the attack is before you begin to move/the later you react, the faster you are in comparison to the attack itself. Very similar to the Hakari feat, only Hakari simply moved his head but got shoulder clipped, while Yuji 'blitzed' or at the very least was a blur compared to the Supersonic attack

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yuji was faster than it though? From the perspective showing us the Supersonic Piercing Blood as something clearly visible, Yuji's speed was a blur compared to the attack. Which is only made more impressive by the fact that he started moving only after it was a few inches from his face and didn't start moving or reacting before. And him moving that fast while on guard and perceiving the Supersonic attack is supported by him being able to bring up both hands for a 2 handed guard the first time he ever experienced the attack while not aware of how fast it would be

When it comes to reacting and dodging, the closer the attack is before you begin to move/the later you react, the faster you are in comparison to the attack itself. Very similar to the Hakari feat, only Hakari simply moved his head but got shoulder clipped, while Yuji 'blitzed' or at the very least was a blur compared to the Supersonic attack

Again read the manga
1. The attack is only supersonic when it is fired. It gets slower as it moved.
2. We don't know the rate at which it gets slower
3. Yuuji believes the attack to be very fast, which he won't say if the attack is 5 times slower than he is.
4. The entire narrative of that scene is that the attack is faster than the characters.

 

[Arkenis]

So you are saying there is a fan calc that place an attack that was given a canonical speed higher than what the author said, so the author is wrong because the calc said the speed is higher??

funny thing is that calc used a speed of 340m/s even though the attack is stated to only exceed the speed of sound at the beginning meaning it got slower as it travels, calcs invalid asf.

 

[Cyberblader90]

powertoscale did say this in regard to that

To give the benefit of the doubt if it slows down after it’s been fired, there is no known rate of how fast it decelerates, which leads to only assumptions. Even if you assume it be half the speed of sound (171.5 m/s) or even 1/10 of sound (34.3 m/s) would still result in supersonic reactions from Yuji. Yuji would also gain Supersonic perception from seeing it initially being faster than sound.

 

[KingTempest]

And you guys are acting as if the calc doesn't make Yuji 11x faster than it, which already makes the calc invalid

 

[Cyberblader90]

Curious what is the issue with the subsonic maki bullet calc

That value would be narratively consist

 

[Arkenis]

Curious what is the issue with the subsonic maki bullet calc

They got subsonic for her reacting to it?

 

[Cyberblader90]

Jujutsu Kaisen: Mai's Bullet Catch - Super Hyper Enhanced Ultra Cursed Edition

vsbattles.fandom.com

subsonic for both ends

 

[PowerToScale]

Jujutsu Kaisen: Mai's Bullet Catch - Super Hyper Enhanced Ultra Cursed Edition

vsbattles.fandom.com

subsonic for both ends

Problem with the calc is the bullet speed as it mentions it uses 60 m/s of riot gun 37-mm M201-Z, which for the record looks like this. Its like firing a sniper but using BB gun bullet speeds, it not comparable. While using the 220 m/s speeds which are more accurate would give.

Method 1:
3.50633/220=0.01593786363
0.86515/0.01593786363= 54.2826830549 Subsonic

Method 2:
0.047/220=0.00021363636

Moving head down speed: 0.12887/0.00021363636= 603.221286863 (Mach 1.7) Supersonic

Moving head to the side speed: 0.074143/0.00021363636= 347.052346333 (Mach 1.01) Supersonic

Considering the calcer also states that method 2 is more reliable and is the most accurate based on the scene that is the one that should be used. Also this same calc was compared to Dr._whiteee's calc (aforementioned one with the 220) in the previous thread with Dr._whiteee's being more reliable.

 

[Arkenis]

Problem with the calc is the bullet speed as it mentions it uses 60 m/s of riot gun 37-mm M201-Z, which for the record looks like this. Its like firing a sniper but using BB gun bullet speeds, it not comparable. While using the 220 m/s speeds which are more accurate would give.

Method 1:
3.50633/220=0.01593786363
0.86515/0.01593786363= 54.2826830549 Subsonic

Method 2:
0.047/220=0.00021363636

Moving head down speed: 0.12887/0.00021363636= 603.221286863 (Mach 1.7) Supersonic

Moving head to the side speed: 0.074143/0.00021363636= 347.052346333 (Mach 1.01) Supersonic

Considering the calcer also states that method 2 is more reliable and is the most accurate based on the scene that is the one that should be used. Also this same calc was compared to Dr._whiteee's calc (aforementioned one with the 220) in the previous thread with Dr._whiteee's being more reliable.

Should be ignored or an outlier for Maki given the new speed scaling we have.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Again read the manga
1. The attack is only supersonic when it is fired. It gets slower as it moved.
2. We don't know the rate at which it gets slower
3. Yuuji believes the attack to be very fast, which he won't say if the attack is 5 times slower than he is.
4. The entire narrative of that scene is that the attack is faster than the characters.

1.) The slashing blade aspect is slower, not the single shot piercing blood beam.

There's 2 phases. The piercing blood shot, and the ability to manipulate the beam like a blade after its shot. The context where Yuji said it was slower was the second phase. This was shown in 103 when Yuji was able to avoid it after Choso started using the extended beam like a blade. The quickest most known comparison I could make is the Madara light fang. The light fang itself is the SoL, Madara swinging his head is its own separate speed.

That and it's never stated to be supersonic as a speed cap, we know it's at least Supersonic as it's said to be faster than sound.

2.) Same as 1, though it scales to Base Choso's swing. We know Base Choso isn't as fast as Yuji as he needed Flowing Red Scale Stack to match him physically, so it's not an anti feat.

3.) Yuji also blocked the said attack that he said was fast while off guard his first time seeing it, and then completely outpaced it upon knowing it was coming. Chapter 101. It was Choso's literal first attack in the entire fight. And we saw that Yuji didn't put his hands up before the attack was shot. Distance is also a thing. Yuji was aiming to get closer to Choso, meaning he'd have less room for error, meaning it'd be more dangerous and easier to hit the closer he goes, especially since he doesn't know exactly where it'd be fired.

4.) No, the narrative is that the attack is fast. You asserting its faster than the characters reaction and combat isn't even supported by narrative, as almost everyone who the attack was used against reacted to it. In context, its faster than their movement/travel speed. Keep in mind, JJK as a series holds travel speed of characters and attacks in high regard, such as piercing blood, Naoya and Naobito's projection sorcery movement/travel speed, cursed Naoya's travel speed etc. Even Naoya considers Piercing Blood dangerous when it has relative speed to his movement speed with his CT, yet he could easily avoid it in terms of reactions while off guard. This line of thinking is very consistent with JJK verse's feats as a whole.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but out of all the times Piercing Blood was used in the series, the only people who didn't react to it were Hanami, who was straight up just walking through and tanking everyone's attacks without ever trying to dodge, and Yuji when Choso used it for the third time point blank while Yuji was stunned and reeling from previous attacks. Every other time that I remember, everyone either reacted with a block or a clean dodge.

Aside from piercing blood, this line of thinking is quite literally shown in Maki vs Naoya. In terms of reaction and combat speed, Maki with her 'new body' could see Naoya well enough to eventually figure out the exact way his technique worked in a short time (albeit with knowledge of Naobito's use of it in Shibuya.) Combat speed wise, in the beginning of 151 they were shown as relative, and again at the end where she reacted to and counter punched him. But in terms of movement speed, he was blitzing and ragdolling her around the whole battlefield. There was even a page where Maki got up and started sprinting, and Naoya straight up blitzed her when comparing movement speed.

Most JJK characters have movement speed that scales lower than their combat speed, and Gege makes characters acknowledge when certain people have exceptional movement or attack speed. They're called fast by everyone, but consistently get reacted to. And even when people fail to react to Projection Sorcery the first time, they usually notice it's not just due to raw speed but the odd movement.

Narratively consistent

 

[Qawsedf234]

“Detonation This is a supersonic combustion wave. Detonations in gases propagate with velocities that range from 5 to 7 times the speed of sound in the reactants. For hydrocarbon fuels in air, the detonation velocity can be up to 1800 m/s. The ideal detonation speed, known as the Chapman-Jouguet velocity, is a function of the reactant composition, initial temperature and pressure.”

A key point there

Detonations in gases propagate with velocities that range from 5 to 7 times the speed of sound in the reactants.

Detonation velocity is not the speed of the explosive wave, it is the speed of the explosion spreading through the reactant.

C4 has a Detonation Velocity of like 8,400 m/s but by the time that explosion travels like 2 meters its slowed down to 1,200 m/s or something like that.

 

[Arkenis]

This your supersonic socerer? Can't even react to an explosion.

The comedian though probably has supersonic speed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Oh right, for my previous comment here's a UN calculator regarding explosions and velocities.

Hydrocarbons have a 1800m/s speed. The gasoline being used is the same for cars. Once again, even the most baseline of explosions are mach 3 and reacting to them is goong to gove a number > that so it really doesn’t even matter that much even if you lowball to the lowest number.

To use this as an example:

• TNT has a detonation velocity of 6,900 m/s
• According to the above UN calculator, 10 Kilograms of TNT exploding has the shockwave velocity drop to 560.13 m/s at a 5 meters. That's a 91.8822% decrease in speed

So with the above, reacting to explosions at any decent distance is not that good. You'd only ever scale to the fully value if it literally blew up while touching the character and the character then escaped.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

This your supersonic socerer? Can't even react to an explosion.

Explosions can be above supersonic speed easly, I would not use this as an antifeat

 

[PowerToScale]

1.) The slashing blade aspect is slower, not the single shot piercing blood beam.

There's 2 phases. The piercing blood shot, and the ability to manipulate the beam like a blade after its shot. The context where Yuji said it was slower was the second phase. This was shown in 103 when Yuji was able to avoid it after Choso started using the extended beam like a blade. The quickest most known comparison I could make is the Madara light fang. The light fang itself is the SoL, Madara swinging his head is its own separate speed.

That and it's never stated to be supersonic as a speed cap, we know it's at least Supersonic as it's said to be faster than sound.

2.) Same as 1, though it scales to Base Choso's swing. We know Base Choso isn't as fast as Yuji as he needed Flowing Red Scale Stack to match him physically, so it's not an anti feat.

3.) Yuji also blocked the said attack that he said was fast while off guard his first time seeing it, and then completely outpaced it upon knowing it was coming. Chapter 101. It was Choso's literal first attack in the entire fight. And we saw that Yuji didn't put his hands up before the attack was shot. Distance is also a thing. Yuji was aiming to get closer to Choso, meaning he'd have less room for error, meaning it'd be more dangerous and easier to hit the closer he goes, especially since he doesn't know exactly where it'd be fired.

4.) No, the narrative is that the attack is fast. You asserting its faster than the characters reaction and combat isn't even supported by narrative, as almost everyone who the attack was used against reacted to it. In context, its faster than their movement/travel speed. Keep in mind, JJK as a series holds travel speed of characters and attacks in high regard, such as piercing blood, Naoya and Naobito's projection sorcery movement/travel speed, cursed Naoya's travel speed etc. Even Naoya considers Piercing Blood dangerous when it has relative speed to his movement speed with his CT, yet he could easily avoid it in terms of reactions while off guard. This line of thinking is very consistent with JJK verse's feats as a whole.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but out of all the times Piercing Blood was used in the series, the only people who didn't react to it were Hanami, who was straight up just walking through and tanking everyone's attacks without ever trying to dodge, and Yuji when Choso used it for the third time point blank while Yuji was stunned and reeling from previous attacks. Every other time that I remember, everyone either reacted with a block or a clean dodge.

Aside from piercing blood, this line of thinking is quite literally shown in Maki vs Naoya. In terms of reaction and combat speed, Maki with her 'new body' could see Naoya well enough to eventually figure out the exact way his technique worked in a short time (albeit with knowledge of Naobito's use of it in Shibuya.) Combat speed wise, in the beginning of 151 they were shown as relative, and again at the end where she reacted to and counter punched him. But in terms of movement speed, he was blitzing and ragdolling her around the whole battlefield. There was even a page where Maki got up and started sprinting, and Naoya straight up blitzed her when comparing movement speed.

Most JJK characters have movement speed that scales lower than their combat speed, and Gege makes characters acknowledge when certain people have exceptional movement or attack speed. They're called fast by everyone, but consistently get reacted to. And even when people fail to react to Projection Sorcery the first time, they usually notice it's not just due to raw speed but the odd movement.

Narratively consistent

The one time where hanami was hit by piercing blood was when he was frozen, so he couldn't have dodged it.

 

[Jibz]

Put me as agree btw.

Spoke with Gege an hour ago, apparently Kashimo’s lightning is only subsonic lightning, very unfortunate.

Agree with the crt (nah but fr i do)

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Oh right, for my previous comment here's a UN calculator regarding explosions and velocities.

To use this as an example:

• TNT has a detonation velocity of 6,900 m/s
• According to the above UN calculator, 10 Kilograms of TNT exploding has the shockwave velocity drop to 560.13 m/s at a 5 meters. That's a 91.8822% decrease in speed

So with the above, reacting to explosions at any decent distance is not that good. You'd only ever scale to the fully value if it literally blew up while touching the character and the character then escaped.

This is true, and that's why being close to the blast will greatly impact the result of the calc (such as the todano calc). The strength of the blast also impacts this as we see increasing the kg to 100 results in a speed of 1112.25 m/s at 5m.

However, even if we increase the distance to 15m (3x your distance) the value is still 374m/s and over supersonic. Reacting to explosions from 5m (like Megumi did) is not something a person is who well under supersonic levels of speed can. Especially in the second instance in which he takes several complex and discrete actions prior to the blast engulfing him in addition to the accelerant of gasoline being used.

 

[Qawsedf234]

accelerant of gasoline being used.

While true, a thing to consider with that is gasoline explosions are massively slower than TNT/most conventual explosions. They'd hit a wall far sooner than those explosives would from what I understand.

not something a person is who well under supersonic levels of speed can.

But it might be something someone under mach 3 or so could accomplish. Which is what I think the point is.