Projection Sorcery - Killing the elephant

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Continuation of this thread.
The goal post:

• Determine if 24m/s - 34m/s is far faster against Heavenly Restricted characters (Toji and Maki), who are already blitz worth above most of the cast, capping the verse at Superhuman based on Itadori in chapter 1 running at 16m/s
• Determine if we should assume that Maki post sumo got faster or not

I will try to update as the discussion goes on

Current calcs that would be removed

Spoiler

I will little by little update it

Arguments for superhuman cap

Spoiler

Original argument from @KingTempest and most here is from him

Projection Sorcery basically allows the user to make 24 movements within one second (Ch. 151). The thing is, Naobito and Naoya can blitz most of the characters within such timeframe while moving only a few meters

Examples:

In this scene Naobito basically moved less than 15-20 meters. Assuming the timeframe of 1 second, the speed would be 20m/s at most
Dagon is completly static while Naobito is moving at such speed, so it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Dagon to be already subsonic while getting blized by superhuman speed.

Heavenly Restricted Maki loses in a direct combat against Naoya, who would be punching around 34m/s using the same logic

Supporting evidence for such cap:

• Hanami's buds can't travel one meter within 0.01 seconds (Ch. 51)
  • And thus, slower than 27m/s
• Higuruma and Yuta were the only ones who could perceive a delay of less than 0.01 seconds (Ch. 229)
• Naobito's Projection Sorcery of covering melee distances. He was blitzing Dagon, and stated to be possibly faster than Jogo (Ch. 107)
• Naoya by using Projection Sorcery could speedblitz both Itadori and Choso. Within the same timeframe, both Choso and Itadori could only move some centimeters while Naoya had moved several meters (Ch. 139)
• Naoya's peak speed after constant build up is stated to be transonic (Ch. 151)
• Maki believed that Cursed Naoya moves faster than the speed of sound, and Maki thought that she could only catch him with proper preparation from dozen of meters away (Ch. 193)
• Mach 3 is a complete blitz (Ch. 193)

Arguments against the cap

Spoiler

1- Too many feats
There's several of feats that puts the cast consistently around subsonic in speed:
NOTE: PLEASE, don't turn this into a calc discussion. These calcs were already accepted by CGMs and/or in CRTs, so let's not turn this into a calc discussion and delay the main goal. I also removed the anime feats since those are being revised due to the new canon standards

• Holding back Hanami moves a tree very fast - Subsonic (Mach 0.161)
• Maki blitzes Ogi - Subsonic (Mach 0.37)
• Geto blocks Toji's bullets - Subsonic(Mach 0.17)
  • Alternative version - Mach 0.22
• Maki cuts Mai's rubber bullet in half - Subsonic (Mach 0.26)
• Mahito jumps around - Subsonic (Mach 0.5)
• Itadori barely reacts to Piercing Blood - Subsonic (Mach 0.31)
• Mahito's long arms - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.62)
• Megumi block arrows - Subsonic (Mach 0.19)
• Maki dodges rubber bullet - Subsonic(Mach 0.35)
  • The point blank version gives Hypersonic results, but since Gege called this feat "too much", we just use the longest possible distance as a lowball
• Tsurugi dash - Subsonic (Mach 0.141)
• Jogo blitzes Nanami - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.64)
• Toji blizes everyone - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.66)
• 3f Sukuna blitzes Megumi - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.72)
• Naobito blitzes Cursed Womb Dagon - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.82)

Non evaluated calcs but still pretty blatant (can be ignored):

• Geto blitzes everyone - Subsonic (Mach 0.32)
• Itadori blocks a Piercing Blood - Subsonic (Mach 0.16)

Not only that, but there's numerous direct feats within the story that would be superhuman cap (24m/s to 34m/s) impossible
Examples:

Spoiler

Maki completly blitzes Ogi's perception and reaction speed from dozen of meters away (Ch. 149) who would already be far above no CE Itadori running at 16m/s (Ch. 1)

Uraume's Maximum Output could cover over 30 meters in less than a second (Ch. 215)

Hanami summons a immense tree in less than two panels (Ch. 49)

Toji blitzes Ogami (Ch. 98)

Geto blitzes sorcerers from dozen of meters (Ch. 3 Vol 0)

And more

All of these feats are by standard subsonic even if we assume the lowest possible reaction speed (average human)

2- Projection Sorcery depends of the user's point of view

From the fanbook
The "one second" depends of the user's point of view and thus it would make it unqualified to cap the verse

3- Maki does have a direct subsonic+ feat via the transonic statement
In chapter 151, in the moment that Naoya was stated to move at transonic speeds, Maki ended up being capable to react in the last second, giving a subsonic+ result (Mach 0.73)

4- Naoya and Naobito casual blitz always give high results

• Naobito while drunk blitzes Cursed Womb Dagon - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.82)
• Casual Naoya blitzes Itadori and Choso - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.67)

---

The vision and intention of Gege about Naoya and Naobito being subsonic to transonic is obvious enough, and while he didn't thought about the base speed of the characters propely, Gege still made a great thought about their top speed. The mach 3 statements makes it obvious enough (Ch.193).

Post Sumo training key

Spoiler

We currently accept that Maki got stronger after her training with Miyo, since it's stated that she couldn't beat even someone she is logically stronger before the training and couldn't focus in the fight propely (Ch. 196). The sumo training probably took over 8 hours (Ch. 197)
.
The arguments against this is due to the fact that the manga itself never outright stated that she got faster, but instead just increased her senses and got precognition (Ch. 197)
.
The main problem is that if we assume that she didn't got faster/stronger after the sumo training, it would mean that the cap would end up affecting far more characters, specially the Heavy Hitters, and such:

• 3f Sukuna blitzes Megumi - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.72)
• Toji blitzes Megumi - Supersonic (Mach 1.27)
• Granite Blast Speed - Supersonic (Mach 1.44)
• Uraume Blocks Piercing Blood - Supersonic (Mach 1.91)
• Frost Calm's speed - Supersonic (Mach 3.34)
• Toji slashes fast - Supersonic+ (Mach 2.79)
• Kenjaku Dodges Piercing Blood - Supersonic+ (Mach 4.6)

All of these feats would be affected by the cap and as such removed since they currently scale to Post Awakening Maki

Options we have
Apply the superhuman cap, most of the verse would just upscale from 16m/s from chapter 1 Itadori:

Remain with the transonic and Mach 3 cap, remove the post sumo key: @AbaddonTheDisappointment (Either) @KingTempest @Damage3245 @Dalesean027 (Either)

Remain with the transonic and Mach 3 cap, keep the post sumo key: @Duedate8898 @Dalesean027 (Either) @AbaddonTheDisappointment (Either)

Remove any kind of speed cap:

Spoiler

Art source

 

[Chariot190]

Post the thread and then [REDACTED].

 

[ElJoaki5]

Permission given by @AbaddonTheDisappointment

As the explanation to projection sorcery states, projection sorcery allows the user to perform 24 movements in one second. What I wanna bring up is that this second isn’t necessarily a second in normal time, but rather a second of animation.

This idea is based on this scene. Dagon is sent flying at high speeds and then appears slowed down as Naobito continues to move at 1 move per frame. As time is slowed down here, this doesn’t actually take 1 second of real time but rather one second of animation.

So basically Projection Sorcery performs one movement per frame of animation and not real time, so the cap that is being proposed isn’t accurate.


Scaling wise I'd also like to point out how based on the speed values given by the narrative the high tiers of the verse shouldn’t be capped by this, just the low tiers. I have a whole sandbox on this.

ElJoaki5/Sandbox 2

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[KingTempest]

Permission given by @AbaddonTheDisappointment

As the explanation to projection sorcery states, projection sorcery allows the user to perform 24 movements in one second. What I wanna bring up is that this second isn’t necessarily a second in normal time, but rather a second of animation.

This idea is based on this scene. Dagon is sent flying at high speeds and then appears slowed down as Naobito continues to move at 1 move per frame. As time is slowed down here, this doesn’t actually take 1 second of real time but rather one second of animation.

So basically Projection Sorcery performs one movement per frame of animation and not real time, so the cap that is being proposed isn’t accurate.


Scaling wise I'd also like to point out how based on the speed values given by the narrative the high tiers of the verse shouldn’t be capped by this, just the low tiers. I have a whole sandbox on this.

ElJoaki5/Sandbox 2

vsbattles.fandom.com

This is a cop out.
Maki fights Naoya and she notes that it's a true second. She had no knowledge of the technique but with her timing she could count the framage and she saw it was 24 per second.

 

[KingTempest]

Remain with the transonic and Mach 3 cap, remove the post sumo key:

Put me here

Spoiler: Reason for my agreeal

The literal only reason as to why those feats (outside of the Naoya one) hold any merit is solely because they have calced values.

• 3f Sukuna blitzes Megumi - Subsonic+ (Mach 0.72)
• Toji blitzes Megumi - Supersonic (Mach 1.27)
• Granite Blast Speed - Supersonic (Mach 1.44)
• Uraume Blocks Piercing Blood - Supersonic (Mach 1.91)
• Frost Calm's speed - Supersonic (Mach 3.34)
• Toji slashes fast - Supersonic+ (Mach 2.79)
• Kenjaku Dodges Piercing Blood - Supersonic+ (Mach 4.6)

Half of these utilize cinematic timeframes, others are assumed timeframes, and they can be disregarded if canonically the timeframes differ. Plus, one of them isn't even evaluated yet, some of them are just inconsistent, and even more.

Piercing Blood is easily dodgeable due to it's easy beeline movement which is how even people like early version Yuji (who falls under the cap) could dodge it. So half the feats for piercing blood that have people considerably faster than it are honestly bs since even Yuji, who falls under the cap, is capable of timing it from far distances based on solely predictive movement. So although the calcs are right, regarding the logic in the verse, they just don't work.

Like Uraume called Piercing Blood fast but he has an attack twice as fast? No.
Kenjaku is over 4.6 times as fast as it but he says that it's fast too? No.

The cap is fully allowed for the higher tiers for damn near everyone except the God tiers as well, I disagree with trying to limit it to the lower end characters.
Yuta is at the top of the food chain and he's as fast as the same Yuji who was far slower than Naoya. The cap applies to him as well. And he scales to quite literally everybody else in the cast that's a high tier so it works there too.

Also

2- Projection Sorcery depends of the user's point of view

This point I tackled above

This is a cop out.
Maki fights Naoya and she notes that it's a true second. She had no knowledge of the technique but with her timing she could count the framage and she saw it was 24 per second.

And it's a bad point overall. "Depending on the user's point of view" is not referring to "seconds in their brain", it's just "what they can see". POV is a sight range.

The cap should encapsulate everyone except Gojo Sukuna and few others

 

[Rodriiogo]

Alright got permission from @AbaddonTheDisappointment , so I wanna list my issues.

Spoiler: Superhuman cap = Bad

The whole way this "cap" treats Projection Sorcery is wrong and inconsistent with what the narrative shows for multiple reasons.

- "1 real time second"
The idea of it being 1 real time second already brings a lot of inconsistencies with what the story says. For example, the story says Naoya had already surpassed subsonic speeds:

If we go with the 1 second timeframe it means Naoya would have to be moving at least 308.7 meters per use of PS. Yet he isn't. Even if you assume Naoya's punches have a movement of 2 meters somehow, 24 of those punches would be 48 meters, and even if you add this kick he does, it will never reach the distance he has left of 260.7 meters, so it still wouldn't reach transonic speeds, and we do know that was over 24 movements because Maki had already resetted her count on his movements in the next pages.

Or for Naobito, we have him use PS and not even move 10 meters while doing 24 whole movements as the thread itself admits.

Naobito isn't "holding back", we quite literally see his whole plan was overwhelming Dagon with speed so he could never use his technqiues and we know he's faster than Naoya, so he should be moving at subsonic-transonic speeds as well, yet in both anime and manga, across all 24 movements he's not even moving dozens of meters. So what now? Do we cap Naobito at 10-20m/s because "timeframe is 1 second"? (SIDE NOTE: This would also entail that Dagon is doing that punch in the gif at 0.00812499999m/s, which would be his speed cap according to the "statements")

The story is saying Naoya and Naobito are both beyond subsonic speeds while not even moving 200 meters throughout the entirety of PS's 24 movements. How is that possible if the timeframe is a single real-time second? The statements don't align and this is just a situation of the authors trying to apply timeframes where they don't work. It's the same argument as the whle "Tournament of Power takes 48 minutes" or "Fusion takes 30 minutes" in Dragon Ball, it's true yes but it shouldn't be used as a defeat for an argument when it's straight up contradicted which in this case it very much is, this also applies to Hanami's buds and the 0.01 second domain delay anti-feat.

The thread tries justifying this by saying Naoya was punching at "30m/s" and to that I answer with my next point.

- PS does not increase Naoya/Naobito's speed unless they stack it.
The whole superhuman end is being held together by the headcanon that "PS increases Naoya's speed to blitz them all but his regular speed is below that". That... isn't how it works.

Projection Sorcery simply allows Naoya and Naobito to freeze his point of view for one second so they can make predetermined movements before their opponent even chooses to make one. It's a boost in "decision speed" to say. If someone at your speed went to punch you and you had the ability to freeze time and choose the distance and to where you're gonna dodge, you'd obviously be able to blitz them regardless if your speeds are simillar. That's what they do, it only allows them to increase speed if maintained for long periods of time as speed continues to build up. In-fact the story even says that it LIMITS THEIR INITIAL ACCELERATION. So regular PS (no stack) Naoya isn't even Naoya's regular raw top speed.

TLDR:
Neither Naoya nor Nabito get a speed boost from PS regularly and the whole idea of it only being "1 real time second" shouldn't be used as a measure for speed since it isn't even consistent with itself via Naoya's body doing barely 70 meters worth of movement in that "1 second" yet is moving "beyond subsonic speeds". Mix that with, as the thread points out, the insane number of feats contradicting this line of scaling and you can see why it doesn't work at all.

Spoiler: Transonic cap = Bad

Note that I'm talking about the high tiers here.
The idea of capping the high tiers such as Maki at "transonic" because of Naoya/Naobito also doesn't work.

Point N1: Toji > Naobito narratively, yes, even in speed.
This should be rather obvious but Toji is faster than Naobito. The entire zenin clan only exists because of Toji's whims which implies Toji would be able to destroy the entire zenin clan by himself despite Naobito being there, alongside the confirmation of Naobito fearing him simply by his presence. Dagon who was able to dodge a punch from one-armed Naobito even when not looking and fought normal Naobito beforehand also gets surprised by how fast Toji was and gets completely overwhelmed even more than he was against Naobito. Naobito should be faster than Naoya himself who had surpassed subsonic speeds as he's known as the fastest jujutsu sorcerer other than Gojo with it even being reiterated during the Curse Naoya fight that, even with PS, Naobito is still the fastest. The anime also shows better how Toji REACTION BLITZES Naobito in the scene where he enters Dagon's domain. This isn't limited to the anime but it shows it better there.

So Toji should be at the very least > Transonic speeds.
Point N2: Maki > Human Naoya and unaccelerated Curse Naoya, yes in speed.
This is something that thread straight up lies on. Maki was already faster than Human Naoya post her awakening. The thread says "Heavenly Restricted Maki loses in a direct combat against Naoya", this is not true. She wasn't losing in direct combat.

Naoya hit a grand total of 0 punches even at his top speed until he grabbed Maki's arm which froze her. This isn't her losing in combat, she just got touched once because she was expecting Naoya to continue the punches via the rule of the 24 movements that are predetermined and Naoya can't change them mid-way through. Naoya had that advantage of planning his movements ahead of maki by 1 second as I already explained and he was still missing every single punch.

It's also noted that, despite the awakening, Maki had suffered alot of injuries and blood loss, so she was extremely weakened against Naoya, yet she was still fast enough to DODGE HIS KICK AND PUNCH HIM in the last moment while he was moving at TOP SPEED.

Side note: The thread points it out but excludes the fact that Maki also dodges his kick, she doesn't simply turn around and punch him, so she is indeed moving faster than him here.

As for Curse Naoya, Maki is able to intercept a dash from dozens of meters away from Curse Naoya towards Kamo even while being at a LARGER DISTANCE away herself:

After the accelerated dash from Naoya it's said that even Maki's internal organs were damaged and she was extremely weakened.
Despite this, while still weakened as she hadn't fully recovered, she's able to save Kamo from YET ANOTHER Dash from Curse Naoya despite being nowhere near the frame in the scene previous.

It's made pretty obvious that even Pre-Sumo Maki is able to easily faster than a regular Curse Naoya who should be supersonic as Cursed Womb Naoya had already reached supersonic speeds.

So A.Maki should be at the very least > Supersonic speeds.

TLDR:
There's absolutely 0 reason to cap Maki and the high tiers at below transonic speeds and they are very clearly, at the very least, Supersonic.

Spoiler: 'B-But what about how A.Maki and everyone else in the cast gets blitzed by Naoya and Naobito?!'

That's simply how Projection Sorcery works. Humans don't move at "24FPS" normally so tracking a movement like that is nearly impossible during a fight. For example with Top speed Naoya, he is dashing at the speed of sound so he should be moving 343 meters in a second, but at 24FPS, from the person looking's perspective it'd look like they are teleporting even if you have equal speed to him as each 1/24 of a second they have to move over 14 meters while only 24 frames are visible. So it'd look like this regardless of how fast you are:

Being comparable to Naoya in speed, does not mean you will be able to track him here because he'd still be teleporting 14 meters from ur perspective, if you don't know WHERE he's gonna go like Maki with her precognition against Curse Naoya or her prediction against Human Naoya, you are completely unable to tag him.

To better show my point I will just show the anime since it potrayed what I mean decently well, imagine you are comparable to someone in speed but, despite moving the same distance in the same time (same speed) as you, they move at you like this:

Would you be able to track them? No right?
That's how PS works.
Even if you use it as an actual real time second as the time for Naoya's movements (which is already stupid as I already explained)
Since Naoya is leaving the intervals between each frame without anything while still moving in-between them, each frame would disappear in just 0.003239390994 seconds after appearing (Transonic reactions) so the speed for you to react to A SINGLE FRAME OF NAOYA appearing before it disappears would already require transonic reactions. Guess who, even when weakened, reacts to every single one of Naoya's frames appearing and disappearing, counting them and even being able to block every single one of them.
The same applies for stuff like Cursed Womb Naoya, who Maki points out she had a sensation beyond simply being "fast". That being the fact that PS allows him to just teleport in her eyes, and, at this point Maki did not know this was Naoya so she didn't know he was using PS. So despite being even superior to womb in speed (she even dodges him right after calling him fast and only gets hit because curse womb naoya is fat {big} asf lmao), she was still a target to getting "blitzed" not because of raw speed but because of being completely unable to track how his movements work, and that's why she needs preparation against him, not because of raw speed.

The same would apply to Mach 3 Naoya cap btw (Side Note: Mach 3 is 1029m/s, so Naoya with PS would be teleporting 42.875 meters every single frame lmao, goodluck tracking that), who Post-Sumo Maki (0 increase in stats) is able to easily avoid and even straight up react and PUNCH while hes speeding around just because of her enhanced senses which now allowed her to fight him in equal terms because the movement of PS being untrackable is now nulified.

Overall I'd choose removing any kind of speed cap compared to the other options. There's nothing capping the high tiers, even mach 3.

 

[NikHelton]

LIFE_OF_KING presented his thoughts on the speed rating very competently and well. Overall, it's a typical story where the narrative and data from manga panels can contradict a huge number of feats. We have many examples of this, like Baki or Kengan, where we have clear supersonic feats, a huge number of hypersonic feats, yet the authors often use timers within 0.1-0.01 seconds as something impressive and inappropriately rely on the concept of supersonic speed.

I understand that the plot has an incredibly large number of moments that contradict high speeds, but I think we should ignore them, because with this approach we'll downgrade half the wiki soon.

I agree that the key "after sumo training" should be removed.

The relativistic rating confuses me greatly against the backdrop of the 3 mach limit, because using a panel where Sukuna blitzes Maki from a distance of 10 meters is strange, as that is a movement speed feat, not a reaction feat.

I don't understand at all how anyone agreed to combine 3 mach and 13% SoL in one key. It's some kind of strange attempt to sit on two chairs at once. We should either completely ignore the statement about 3 mach, or rely on it. Other options are unnecessary.

 

[ElJoaki5]

LoK asked me to drop arguments in favor of the sumo key and abbadon gave me permission again.
Saying Maki only got enhanced senses is a straight up lie. Maki should have a post sumo key because:

• What Maki gains isn’t just enhanced senses that let her predict movement. After her sumo training maki gains the ability to perceive scattered surfaces and she is able to use these to boost herself and practically fly, so this works as a speed upgrade too.
• It's stated that Maki's muscles "are going slack" before her training, such a thing would logically decrease her stats. She is also stated to have completely changed after the training.
• Maki after her sumo training has better speed showings as explained in this sandbox (Maki after sumo training is in the high tier section). This isn’t just her prediction, as she is able to fly down the side of a building side to side with Naoya after he had charged up speed.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't understand at all how anyone agreed to combine 3 mach and 13% SoL in one key. It's some kind of strange attempt to sit on two chairs at once. We should either completely ignore the statement about 3 mach, or rely on it. Other options are unnecessary.

Agreed wholeheartedly,

But as it stands this is a staff thread so technically you're not supposed to speak on it, but I will allow it and give you a sort of "In thread permission" just to let this message slide, but if you have any more comments make sure you get more permission from someone else.

Superhuman cap = Bad

Okay

Spoiler: Superhuman Cap

- "1 real time second"​

This is not contradictory at all in the absolute slightest, and it's a bad argument when trying to prove author inconsistency.

First of all, you used him far before he reached transonic speeds as an argument. Naoya needs to stack this ability in order to reach transonic speeds which he stacks over and over while slowly accelerating and such to reach transonic speeds. Without it, he is far below transonic. We see later on that he is required to run long distances when he truly reaches transonic speed to built up distance.

Projection Sorcery allows individuals who maintain the movement to increase in speed. So smaller distances become larger, which is why we see even his steps and the distance of his movements increasing, proven as those are clearly not melee distances that are having step craters, clearly several to tens of meters in fact. Without that increasing distance, which realistically can reach transonic speeds, or like Mach 0.8 according to wikipedia. But never does he start doing close range movements at mach 0.8, that just blatantly isn't true.

We also see him take irregular patterns running back and forth so we know that the realistic capacity of him reaching Mach 0.8 through running super long distances is not implausible, so this is just a bad argument.

Next

- PS does not increase Naoya/Naobito's speed unless they stack it.​

"PS increases Naoya's speed to blitz them all but his regular speed is below that"
This literally isn't stated anywhere in this OP.

The OP talks about completely unrelated things.

Arguments for superhuman cap

Spoiler

Original argument from @KingTempest and most here is from him

Projection Sorcery basically allows the user to make 24 movements within one second (Ch. 151). The thing is, Naobito and Naoya can blitz most of the characters within such timeframe while moving only a few meters

Examples:

In this scene Naobito basically moved less than 15-20 meters. Assuming the timeframe of 1 second, the speed would be 20m/s at most
Dagon is completly static while Naobito is moving at such speed, so it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Dagon to be already subsonic while getting blized by superhuman speed.

Heavenly Restricted Maki loses in a direct combat against Naoya, who would be punching around 34m/s using the same logic

You're worrying about arguments from an old thread that didn't make it here.
But even if it was relevant, we know this is the case.

Choso and Yuji attribute Naoya's speed to his cursed technique. They note that he is fast, and that although the speed is irregular, he's still fast.
Nanami notes that he has a cursed technique that makes him unnaturally fast.
Him and his usage of the technique, even without having to stack the movements (shown as his basic movements blitzed Dagon Maki and Nanami), made him the fastest sorcerer in the world.

The fanbook says this

PROJECTION SORCERY (投射呪法 - tōsha juhō)

Naobito divides 1 second into 24 frames and freezes his field of view for 1 second, which allows him to produce movements in advance. If the opponent does not follow the 1/24 rule and doesn‘t abide by the laws of nature, they get frozen. So if Naobito succeeds in performing the predetermined set of movements, it feels as if only a second has passed.

Naobito practiced high speed combat with this technique and because of it became known as the fastest sorcerer. After the set of movements is determined, Naobito produces his movements in advance, the same way an animation would. It allows him to trace these movements earlier, and at high speeds.

Trying to act like Projection Sorcery is just a move that just makes stupid flashes without changing your speed is dishonest to the actual ability. It's an ability that increases speed. There's a limit to the initial acceleration yes, but that means that you can't just jump from speed A to speed Z, although you can jump to LMNO&P.

Transonic cap = Bad

Part 2

Spoiler: Transonic Cap

Point N1: Toji > Naobito narratively, yes, even in speed.

Not a single thing here that you showed showcases "Toji is faster than Naobito". All you noted was "Toji was a threat to Naobito", and we quite literally see with Dagon vs Naobito, you don't need to be faster than him to hurt him.

In fact there's actually more that shows THE CONTRARY.
When you grab contextless statements like this you do a disservice to the characters and you end up making it seem as if a statement with 1 meaning objectively means 1 thing, and with that logic the same can be done back.

Toji overall regarding strength is stated comparable to Naobito. So you can't use this point to try to act like Toji is just a demon in speed compared to him when overall their capabilities are the same.

With this speed we see something unique.
Toji is stated to be potentially superior but still comparable to 3 finger Sukuna regarding speed.
Jogo is superior to that same Sukuna, while being generous he's on the level of 8 or 9 fingers.
Using mindless scaling like this, you would see "Jogo > Toji".
In that same breath, Naobito is faster than Jogo.

Toji is a demon for a few reasons.
#1, He is very fast even in sorcerer standards. This is the truth.
#2 Most sorcerers utilize semi-precognition in combat, although difficult with stronger opponents. They utilize sensing cursed energy in order to predict the movements.
Besides the fact that Toji truly is fast, Toji has no cursed energy, so it's hard to predict his movements. So in a world of humans with precognition, a superhuman immune to it is a demon in itself.

But when you look at the comparisons of their speed, you know that Toji, although faster than most, is still under that damn cap.
Naobito reached Dagon first, not Toji.
Megumi could trace Toji's movements canonically and time them. He said tracking his movements was near impossible, which means that he could still do it, just barely.
Meanwhile Naoya and Naobito move in a 1/24 timeframe that literally nobody knew about, and it required a double stacked perception amp of Choso and the heavenly restriction amplification of Maki to perceive. So if Toji's at the limit, Naobito's timeframe is beyond the limit.

Point N2: Maki > Human Naoya and unaccelerated Curse Naoya, yes in speed.

Why are we lying.

You can be slower than someone and intercept them. Especially when they're literally RUNNING AT YOU.
The whole thing of "they need to prepare cause he teleports" is a lie. They blatantly say it's cause of the speed.

Heck, Kamo, who is standing right next to Maki, fighting alongside Maki, seeing Maki fight repeatedly, and honestly even the rest of the heavy hitters, he blatantly says that Naoya, referring to regular Naoya and not stacked Naoya since he refers to the binding vow after, is FASTER THAN ANYTHING.

Acting like you're faster because you can intercept or tag someone is so annoying when we visibly see a player, Daido, who can not even perceive Naoya due to his cursed spirit status, capable of tagging him repeatedly.

What are we talking about.

Next

LoK asked me to drop arguments in favor of the sumo key and abbadon gave me permission again.
Saying Maki only got enhanced senses is a straight up lie. Maki should have a post sumo key because:

• What Maki gains isn’t just enhanced senses that let her predict movement. After her sumo training maki gains the ability to perceive scattered surfaces and she is able to use these to boost herself and practically fly, so this works as a speed upgrade too.
• It's stated that Maki's muscles "are going slack" before her training, such a thing would logically decrease her stats. She is also stated to have completely changed after the training.
• Maki after her sumo training has better speed showings as explained in this sandbox (Maki after sumo training is in the high tier section). This isn’t just her prediction, as she is able to fly down the side of a building side to side with Naoya after he had charged up speed.

1. It never says anything about boosting speed. learning a new method of movement does not mean it increases your speed unless it has shown to do so. Maki was dodging Naoya even without it. The only person who can boost their speed while doing that technique is Sukuna and it's because he utilizes cursed energy to boost himself like generating explosions in order to propel off of the jumped air faster.
2. They went slack cause she got her ass beat. Muscles going slack means that she's just exhausted and her muscles aren't moving as efficiently. The moment they "went slack", she went back to normal.
3. She didn't fly down a building she was literally just freefalling waiting for Naoya unless you think someone can freefall at Mach 1.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Again got permission from @AbaddonTheDisappointment .

Spoiler: Superhuman cap

First of all, you used him far before he reached transonic speeds as an argument. Naoya needs to stack this ability in order to reach transonic speeds which he stacks over and over while slowly accelerating and such to reach transonic speeds. Without it, he is far below transonic. We see later on that he is required to run long distances when he truly reaches transonic speed to built up distance.

Projection Sorcery allows individuals who maintain the movement to increase in speed. So smaller distances become larger, which is why we see even his steps and the distance of his movements increasing, proven as those are clearly not melee distances that are having step craters, clearly several to tens of meters in fact. Without that increasing distance, which realistically can reach transonic speeds, or like Mach 0.8 according to wikipedia. But never does he start doing close range movements at mach 0.8, that just blatantly isn't true.

We also see him take irregular patterns running back and forth so we know that the realistic capacity of him reaching Mach 0.8 through running super long distances is not implausible, so this is just a bad argument.

He was already stacking beforehand. If you want to argue in bad faith that Naoya wasn’t even approaching transonic speeds during those punches, then I honestly don’t know what to tell you. I’ll repost the scan, but again, Maki chooses to bait Naoya into a head-on fight because he had already surpassed subsonic speeds. That decision only makes sense if Naoya was already moving at that level.

So why are you claiming he only reached transonic speeds during the final dash? What is that based on? Also, even if you include the final dash, he still never travels anywhere near 300 meters, you didn’t attack the point at all. Naoya surpasses subsonic speeds quite easily with Projection Sorcery, even with minimal acceleration. He was dodging and moving at comparable speeds to Piercing Blood while retreating and even later, despite being slowed by Choso’s blood weight, Naoya was still confident he could dodge Piercing Blood while charging directly toward it at close range, with essentially zero acceleration.

All of this is while he is fully aware that Piercing Blood's speed is supersonic or higher. Acting like Naoya is "far below transonic" under normal PS and that he only surpasses subsonic in the final dash is extremely disingenuous. He was already moving near transonic speeds and surpassing them during the entirety of the Maki fight.

You also still have not addressed the multiple examples on the Naobito point, don’t narrow the argument to one issue when there are multiple.

"PS increases Naoya's speed to blitz them all but his regular speed is below that"
This literally isn't stated anywhere in this OP.

The OP talks about completely unrelated things.

You're worrying about arguments from an old thread that didn't make it here.

The thread says that some uses of Projection Sorcery, such as Naoya’s punches against Maki, or Naobito versus Dagon, are below subsonic, while simultaneously agreeing that other uses of the technique are subsonic or higher even without acceleration. (And feats straight up showing it lmao)

It's indeed indirectly saying that PS increases speed or that it somehow varies, when it either produces subsonic movement or it doesn’t as the speed doesn't come from the technique. Unless you’re actually arguing that they were deliberately holding back their speed, which I’ve already shown is not the case in neither Maki VS Naoya nor Dagon VS Naobito.

But even if it was relevant, we know this is the case.

Choso and Yuji attribute Naoya's speed to his cursed technique. They note that he is fast, and that although the speed is irregular, he's still fast.
Nanami notes that he has a cursed technique that makes him unnaturally fast.
Him and his usage of the technique, even without having to stack the movements (shown as his basic movements blitzed Dagon Maki and Nanami), made him the fastest sorcerer in the world.

The fanbook says this

Trying to act like Projection Sorcery is just a move that just makes stupid flashes without changing your speed is dishonest to the actual ability. It's an ability that increases speed. There's a limit to the initial acceleration yes, but that means that you can't just jump from speed A to speed Z, although you can jump to LMNO&P.

Choso, Yuji, and Nanami attribute their speed to the cursed technique because, despite the speed, it appears unnatural (As nanami points out and Choso immediatly discovers) to sorcerers looking at them using it. Naoya and Naobito seem to be teleporting between positions due to how Projection Sorcery operates on a frame-by-frame basis. The intent behind those statements is not "they are only fast because of the technique". They’re saying Projection Sorcery makes their movement unnatural and abnormal, not that it boosts the actual speed, the same applies to the fanbook statement since it directly notes that Naobito was already using high speed while learning the technique, not that the technique gave him the high speed, also where is that even said? Here's the official image of PS in the fanbook and it doesn't say that? Please show any valid proof of PS boosting their speed.

Spoiler: Transonic cap

Not a single thing here that you showed showcases "Toji is faster than Naobito". All you noted was "Toji was a threat to Naobito", and we quite literally see with Dagon vs Naobito, you don't need to be faster than him to hurt him.

I showed all of this images:

And keep in mind I forgot to include the fact that Dagon tries to use the SAME technique he used to overwhelm 2 arm naobito (third image) but it doesn't work on Toji because he keeps getting faster and faster and doesn't let his vision get blocked. But sure go ahead and say nothing supports him being faster.

Also the statement from Toji and the zenin clan is that Toji would be able to take down the ENTIRE CLAN by himself. Naobito wouldn't be fighting Toji one on one and he'd still lose, Toji being slower than Naobito is dumb.

In fact there's actually more that shows THE CONTRARY.
When you grab contextless statements like this you do a disservice to the characters and you end up making it seem as if a statement with 1 meaning objectively means 1 thing, and with that logic the same can be done back.

Toji overall regarding strength is stated comparable to Naobito. So you can't use this point to try to act like Toji is just a demon in speed compared to him when overall their capabilities are the same.

Thank you for making my point stronger? Because, if their strength is comparable, please tell me how Toji is able to take him AND THE ENTIRE ZENIN CLAN TOGETHER if naobito is "miles faster" than him.

With this speed we see something unique.
Toji is stated to be potentially superior but still comparable to 3 finger Sukuna regarding speed.
Jogo is superior to that same Sukuna, while being generous he's on the level of 8 or 9 fingers.
Using mindless scaling like this, you would see "Jogo > Toji".
In that same breath, Naobito is faster than Jogo.

Kenjaku was exaggerating massively, we have WoG statements that confirm Jogo was only 5 fingers level, Toji being faster than 3F doesn't mean he isn't faster than 5 Fingers aswell. Also the statement is about power, nothing says Jogo is as fast as 5F sukuna just that his level of power is around 5F Sukuna.

Toji is a demon for a few reasons.
#1, He is very fast even in sorcerer standards. This is the truth.
#2 Most sorcerers utilize semi-precognition in combat, although difficult with stronger opponents. They utilize sensing cursed energy in order to predict the movements.
Besides the fact that Toji truly is fast, Toji has no cursed energy, so it's hard to predict his movements. So in a world of humans with precognition, a superhuman immune to it is a demon in itself.

This works if Toji is faster or at least comparable to you, this does not work if he's slower so following your claim of Naobito > Toji in speed, this would not work against Naobito.

But when you look at the comparisons of their speed, you know that Toji, although faster than most, is still under that damn cap.
Naobito reached Dagon first, not Toji.

Your own scans show that Toji hadn't even tried to move before Naobito reached Dagon. Do you wanna say that Dagon blitzed/is faster than Toji here as well because he got that high before Toji even moved? There was no speed comparission here, Toji didn't even try to move.

Megumi could trace Toji's movements canonically and time them. He said tracking his movements was near impossible, which means that he could still do it, just barely.
Meanwhile Naoya and Naobito move in a 1/24 timeframe that literally nobody knew about, and it required a double stacked perception amp of Choso and the heavenly restriction amplification of Maki to perceive. So if Toji's at the limit, Naobito's timeframe is beyond the limit.

So... "speed comparison" and you decide to use movements tracking comparision as if Toji didn't move "like a normal human" (as in, his FPS) does while Naoya and Naobito move in 24 Frames teleportations which is what I already adressed in the "'B-But what about how A.Maki and everyone else in the cast gets blitzed by Naoya and Naobito?!" point. Of course neither Maki nor Choso could track their movements normally. That's LITERALLY the whole point of the technique. This isn't a speed comparison. Completely irrelevant.

You can be slower than someone and intercept them. Especially when they're literally RUNNING AT YOU.
The whole thing of "they need to prepare cause he teleports" is a lie. They blatantly say it's cause of the speed.

Are you purposefully missing the point and ignoring multiple parts?

Naoya was coming at top speed and got to a VERY CLOSE RANGE. Maki was able to completely dodge his kick, turn around 180º and direct a punch to his face. If you genuinely think she's moving slower than Naoya here I don't know what to say man. If someone shoots a bullet at you from close range, are you able to, get out of the way of the bullet, completely turn around 180º and go for a punch?

And in neither of the other situations was Naoya moving at Maki, only the Human Naoya one. Maki directly outpaces Curse Naoya movements while moving larger distances than him:

Why was this not adressed?

Heck, Kamo, who is standing right next to Maki, fighting alongside Maki, seeing Maki fight repeatedly, and honestly even the rest of the heavy hitters, he blatantly says that Naoya, referring to regular Naoya and not stacked Naoya since he refers to the binding vow after, is FASTER THAN ANYTHING.

The kanji used for his speed is that his speed is "出类拔萃" which just means outstanding, TCB even supports this by saying unparalleled. Nothing in the raw kanjis says anything about "faster than"

Just classic John Werryism dumbing down stuff to the point they mean something else.

Acting like you're faster because you can intercept or tag someone is so annoying when we visibly see a player, Daido, who can not even perceive Naoya due to his cursed spirit status, capable of tagging him repeatedly.

He can't percieve him because he can not see cursed spirits as he's not a sorcerer, this is not a speed diff where Naoya is too fast for Dadio. In fact it just proves Naoya's speed isn't "above top tiers" since Daido (not a top tier) who physically couldn't even see him, can do what you just said, so thanks, again, for making my point stronger.

 

[KingTempest]

Again got permission from @AbaddonTheDisappointment .

Spoiler: Superhuman cap

He was already stacking beforehand. If you want to argue in bad faith that Naoya wasn’t even approaching transonic speeds during those punches, then I honestly don’t know what to tell you. I’ll repost the scan, but again, Maki chooses to bait Naoya into a head-on fight because he had already surpassed subsonic speeds. That decision only makes sense if Naoya was already moving at that level.

So why are you claiming he only reached transonic speeds during the final dash? What is that based on? Also, even if you include the final dash, he still never travels anywhere near 300 meters, you didn’t attack the point at all. Naoya surpasses subsonic speeds quite easily with Projection Sorcery, even with minimal acceleration. He was dodging and moving at comparable speeds to Piercing Blood while retreating and even later, despite being slowed by Choso’s blood weight, Naoya was still confident he could dodge Piercing Blood while charging directly toward it at close range, with essentially zero acceleration.

All of this is while he is fully aware that Piercing Blood's speed is supersonic or higher. Acting like Naoya is "far below transonic" under normal PS and that he only surpasses subsonic in the final dash is extremely disingenuous. He was already moving near transonic speeds and surpassing them during the entirety of the Maki fight.

You also still have not addressed the multiple examples on the Naobito point, don’t narrow the argument to one issue when there are multiple.


The thread says that some uses of Projection Sorcery, such as Naoya’s punches against Maki, or Naobito versus Dagon, are below subsonic, while simultaneously agreeing that other uses of the technique are subsonic or higher even without acceleration. (And feats straight up showing it lmao)

It's indeed indirectly saying that PS increases speed or that it somehow varies, when it either produces subsonic movement or it doesn’t as the speed doesn't come from the technique. Unless you’re actually arguing that they were deliberately holding back their speed, which I’ve already shown is not the case in neither Maki VS Naoya nor Dagon VS Naobito.


Choso, Yuji, and Nanami attribute their speed to the cursed technique because, despite the speed, it appears unnatural (As nanami points out and Choso immediatly discovers) to sorcerers looking at them using it. Naoya and Naobito seem to be teleporting between positions due to how Projection Sorcery operates on a frame-by-frame basis. The intent behind those statements is not "they are only fast because of the technique". They’re saying Projection Sorcery makes their movement unnatural and abnormal, not that it boosts the actual speed, the same applies to the fanbook statement since it directly notes that Naobito was already using high speed while learning the technique, not that the technique gave him the high speed, also where is that even said? Here's the official image of PS in the fanbook and it doesn't say that? Please show any valid proof of PS boosting their speed.

Spoiler: Superhuman Cap

Dude, what?

The whole conversation is that Naoya when he starts off with his technique, isn't subsonic. Then as he spams his technique over and over, the longer he uses it, he gets to subsonic.
The first time he truly hit subsonic was when he started doing bullshit like this after stacking up.

Said afterimages is proof of the acceleration.
His base usage of the technique is not subsonic. Him after stacking it and prolonging it reached subsonic, then further down the line he reached transonic.

You have a ridiculous nothing point when he flat out see that it takes growth for him to reach subsonic, then it takes growth to reach transonic.

And this "He didn't travel 300 meters"
1. Naoya traveled offscreen
2. We don't see his travel path
3. When we do see his travel path, he's taking fat ass steps

You're arguing with a WALL based on points nobody is making and it sounds dumb. I'm legit confused on what you're even trying to get at.

On top of that, why is it bad that someone with that reaction time can track piercing blood?
#1 He got hit by a slower attack
#2 You don't need sound speed reaction time to react to mach speeds meters away from you. This is how we react to JETS that are far away from us.
#3 Point 1, again. HE GOT HIT BY A SLOWER ATTACK.

Like these elementary arguments are annoying dude.

Spoiler: Transonic cap

I showed all of this images:

And keep in mind I forgot to include the fact that Dagon tries to use the SAME technique he used to overwhelm 2 arm naobito (third image) but it doesn't work on Toji because he keeps getting faster and faster and doesn't let his vision get blocked. But sure go ahead and say nothing supports him being faster.

Also the statement from Toji and the zenin clan is that Toji would be able to take down the ENTIRE CLAN by himself. Naobito wouldn't be fighting Toji one on one and he'd still lose, Toji being slower than Naobito is dumb.


Thank you for making my point stronger? Because, if their strength is comparable, please tell me how Toji is able to take him AND THE ENTIRE ZENIN CLAN TOGETHER if naobito is "miles faster" than him.


Kenjaku was exaggerating massively, we have WoG statements that confirm Jogo was only 5 fingers level, Toji being faster than 3F doesn't mean he isn't faster than 5 Fingers aswell. Also the statement is about power, nothing says Jogo is as fast as 5F sukuna just that his level of power is around 5F Sukuna.


This works if Toji is faster or at least comparable to you, this does not work if he's slower so following your claim of Naobito > Toji in speed, this would not work against Naobito.


Your own scans show that Toji hadn't even tried to move before Naobito reached Dagon. Do you wanna say that Dagon blitzed/is faster than Toji here as well because he got that high before Toji even moved? There was no speed comparission here, Toji didn't even try to move.


So... "speed comparison" and you decide to use movements tracking comparision as if Toji didn't move "like a normal human" (as in, his FPS) does while Naoya and Naobito move in 24 Frames teleportations which is what I already adressed in the "'B-But what about how A.Maki and everyone else in the cast gets blitzed by Naoya and Naobito?!" point. Of course neither Maki nor Choso could track their movements normally. That's LITERALLY the whole point of the technique. This isn't a speed comparison. Completely irrelevant.


Are you purposefully missing the point and ignoring multiple parts?

Naoya was coming at top speed and got to a VERY CLOSE RANGE. Maki was able to completely dodge his kick, turn around 180º and direct a punch to his face. If you genuinely think she's moving slower than Naoya here I don't know what to say man. If someone shoots a bullet at you from close range, are you able to, get out of the way of the bullet, completely turn around 180º and go for a punch?

And in neither of the other situations was Naoya moving at Maki, only the Human Naoya one. Maki directly outpaces Curse Naoya movements while moving larger distances than him:

Why was this not adressed?

The kanji used for his speed is that his speed is "出类拔萃" which just means outstanding, TCB even supports this by saying unparalleled. Nothing in the raw kanjis says anything about "faster than"

Just classic John Werryism dumbing down stuff to the point they mean something else.


He can't percieve him because he can not see cursed spirits as he's not a sorcerer, this is not a speed diff where Naoya is too fast for Dadio. In fact it just proves Naoya's speed isn't "above top tiers" since Daido (not a top tier) who physically couldn't even see him, can do what you just said, so thanks, again, for making my point stronger.

Spoiler: Transonic Cap

1. You got a scan of a man getting hit by a domain's autotarget that is incapable of missing and it literally spawns on you when he attacks with his bare limbs, which he was still capable of destroying with absolute ease until he was caught off guard through methods like blindsiding and such, and you got a man incapable of being autotargeted by domains, WHILE THE AUTOTARGETING EFFECT OF THE DOMAIN IS CURRENTLY BEING MITIGATED, so on top of him being immune, it's not even working, and he STATES THAT HE CAN KILL TOJI IF HE GOT HIS SURE HIT BACK, but Toji destroyed that attack with a weapon, and the only thing you deduced from it is "yeah he's objectively faster".
You need to actually read the series with an intention of objectivity instead of reading it for threads.

2. Maki is slower than Naoya and she killed the whole clan.

3.
Me: Jogo is stronger than 3f Sukuna. While being generous, Kenjaku said 8 or 9 fingers.
You: He was exaggerating saying 8 or 9 he's actually 5f level
You're literally arguing with points that don't matter. If I say "the dude with the nike shirt who killed the 8 dudes lied during court" you would somehow find a way to say "but his hair was dark brown". Your points are literally chunks of irrelevant knowledge that mean nothing.

4.
My scan shows Toji still trying to build his weapon to climb upwards while Naobito blitzed him.

5.
Go and read any DC comic where Superman is canonically slower than the flash but can still beat him, or same with Wonder Woman and the Reverse Flash. I am not entitled to explain to you how people can defeat characters drastically superior to them in speed.

6.
You got support of a scan saying his speed is unparalleled and you said it doesn't mean faster than when the phrase "unparalleled" literally means UNMATCHED.
Are we deadass?

7. If someone showcases inferiority in an entire fight and there's 1 moment of them even weaker showing a contradictory feat, then we can acknowledge that it's an outlier meant to hype feats up.
Same way Kamo canonically is far slower than curse Naoya but Gege drew him close range blocking his punches.

8. 出类拔萃 does not just mean outstanding. The regular Japanese term for outstanding is 抜群, based on the roots 抜 (to pull out from) 群 (crowd).
出类拔萃 is a whole different thing. It's referring to way more than just "outstanding".
We can go grab a native speaker if need be but I'm letting you know right now you're not correct.

 

[KingTempest]

Can we get staff here cause this is ridiculous

 

[Damage3245]

I'll evaluate this later today.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you summarise explanations for your conclusions here, KingTempest?

 

[NikHelton]

I'll evaluate this later today.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I'll evaluate this later today.

Just pinging in case you forgot about this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I'll evaluate this later today.

@Damage3245

 

[KingTempest]

Can you summarise explanations for your conclusions here, KingTempest?

#1 I agree with the cap.
#2 I agree with the highest cap.
#3 The only characters who shouldn't fall under the cap should be the god tiers, so Gojo, Sukuna, Dabura, Mahoraga, etc..
#4 A lot of the reasons for characters to not fall under the cap are pure headcanon, a lot of them are fancalcs, and some are valid but the cap's reasons outweigh them tenfold
#5 A character who has witnessed the likes of Kenjaku, Maki and many more have said that Mach 1-3 is faster than anything he's seen before,
#6 Naoya, one of the members imposing the cap, has blitzed almost everyone he fought save for literally 1 person who was still shown as inferior.
#7 Although Projection Sorcery moves in unnatural ways, the users are still noted to be fast
#8 Most of the reasons in the OP are mine
#9 Half the calcs used against the cap are inconsistent with the work.
9a. Uraume's calced to be faster than a technique he called fast and has a move twice as fast when he struggled with the speed of the piercing blood technique
9b. Toji's noted to be dozens of times faster than megumi when megumi at max focus could still react to him albiet with difficulty.
9c. Some of these are anime exclusive feats that shouldn't exist.

I have more reasons to showcase but those aren't really relevant to this specific thread so it's aight.

 

[KingTempest]

In advance, I already know my message will be replied to. Personally (and I'll give the opposition permission to reply after the next one just so their arguments can be fairly given out) I recommend we both each send 2 messages detailing our points in a professional manner and the next message being counters to the points, just so we don't stay here and go back and forth before more staff come. Too many messages = more staff saying "I'm not reading that" (speaking from experience)

 

[Da3ggman]

#3 The only characters who shouldn't fall under the cap should be the god tiers, so Gojo, Sukuna, Dabura, Mahoraga, etc..

I don't care about anything else but where does MBA Kashimo fall on the list?

 

[KingTempest]

I don't care about anything else but where does MBA Kashimo fall on the list?

him too i guess

 

[Damage3245]

Based on this post, and this post, I find myself in agreement with KingTempest and his conclusions for this thread. The reasons given there are more convincing than the other sides.

 

[NikHelton]

Based on this post, and this post, I find myself in agreement with KingTempest and his conclusions for this thread. The reasons given there are more convincing than the other sides.

him too i guess

While this topic isn't closed, could you please tell me what you'll do with the 3 Mach and Relativistic Reaction combo? It seems KingTempest agrees that this combo is questionable.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

While this topic isn't closed, could you please tell me what you'll do with the 3 Mach and Relativistic Reaction combo? It seems KingTempest agrees that this combo is questionable.

This thread isn't about that and it could be covered in another thread

Also planning on responding/voting later so there can be actual staff votes

 

[Rodriiogo]

Personally (and I'll give the opposition permission to reply after the next one just so their arguments can be fairly given out) I recommend we both each send 2 messages detailing our points in a professional manner and the next message being counters to the points, just so we don't stay here and go back and forth before more staff come.

Alrighty. First off let me just add this part here where I already explained how Projection Sorcery works above (ignore every instance where I make a side point in it, this is just for the staff who haven't checked have no need of scrolling up):

Spoiler: How Projection Sorcery works

Humans don't move at "24FPS" normally so tracking a movement like that is nearly impossible during a fight. For example with Top speed Naoya, he is dashing at the speed of sound so he should be moving 343 meters in a second, but at 24FPS, from the person looking's perspective it'd look like they are teleporting even if you have equal speed to him as each 1/24 of a second they have to move over 14 meters while only 24 frames are visible. So it'd look like this regardless of how fast you are:

Being comparable to Naoya in speed, does not mean you will be able to track him here because he'd still be teleporting 14 meters from ur perspective, if you don't know WHERE he's gonna go like Maki with her precognition against Curse Naoya or her prediction against Human Naoya, you are completely unable to tag him.

To better show my point I will just show the anime since it potrayed what I mean decently well, imagine you are comparable to someone in speed but, despite moving the same distance in the same time (same speed) as you, they move at you like this:

Would you be able to track them? No right?
That's how PS works.
Even if you use it as an actual real time second as the time for Naoya's movements (which is already stupid as I already explained)
Since Naoya is leaving the intervals between each frame without anything while still moving in-between them, each frame would disappear in just 0.003239390994 seconds after appearing (Transonic reactions) so the speed for you to react to A SINGLE FRAME OF NAOYA appearing before it disappears would already require transonic reactions. Guess who, even when weakened, reacts to every single one of Naoya's frames appearing and disappearing, counting them and even being able to block every single one of them.
The same applies for stuff like Cursed Womb Naoya, who Maki points out she had a sensation beyond simply being "fast". That being the fact that PS allows him to just teleport in her eyes, and, at this point Maki did not know this was Naoya so she didn't know he was using PS. So despite being even superior to womb in speed (she even dodges him right after calling him fast and only gets hit because curse womb naoya is fat {big} asf lmao), she was still a target to getting "blitzed" not because of raw speed but because of being completely unable to track how his movements work, and that's why she needs preparation against him, not because of raw speed.

Now I will try to address all my points as clear as possible, I will tag mainly the transonic cap since by doing so I kinda already tag the superhuman one.

Spoiler: Naoya and Naobito's Non-Stacking Speed

I think the thread is unjustifiably "capping" Unstacked Naoya and Naobito’s speed below subsonic. Both characters have alot of blatant subsonic feats without any stacks, and this is narratively consistent with other Zenin clan members who are explicitly said to be "slow" are still shown as FTE (Faster Than Eye, and the anime adaptation makes this intent even clearer)

This is also supported by Naoya himself, as even without stacking his speed, he is confident he could dodge Piercing Blood at extremely close range while actively dashing toward it. Using real life measures of the same road, Naoya is initiating his dash from just around 3 meters. This only makes sense if his base speed is already decently high into subsonic as even at it's baseline Piercing Blood is supersonic. The time it would take for it to reach the INITIAL position where Naoya is, even using 3 meters and only baseline for PB, is already only 0.007951232441 seconds which is almost Subsonic+ reactions. Naoya with basically 0 acceleration is even faster than this as he would be mid-way through the dash.

Naoya being hit by other Choso's attacks does not contradict this:

• Wave: Not only does he literally call the wave extremely slow, Naoya quite literally outpaces the wave even after getting even closer to it while dodging Piercing Blood. The only reason it ends up splashing onto him is because Choso kicks him directly into it immediately afterward, as Choso had already adapted to Naoya’s Projection Sorcery movement by this point.
• Supernova: First off, Naoya was not expecting that. He was focused on Choso's hands since he was certain he would use piercing blood and gets confused when Choso doesn't, Choso only uses Supernova when Naoya was mid-dash of his predetermined movements that he can not switch otherwise he'd be frozen (Though I will acknowledge that there's an argument he was not using Projection Sorcery here, but using that would just make my argument better since it'd make NO PS Naoya almost Subsonic+ already). And second off, Supernovas are not slower than Piercing Blood. They function through convergence in the same way by releasing it, the attack is essentially alot of compressed blood to create a Mini Piercing Blood explosion. The same supernovas force Kenjaku to rely on Gravity Technique when he's surrounded by them, despite him being more than fast enough to dodge Piercing Blood at near point-blank range, and even reacting fast enough to rotate his head while DIRECTLY at point-blank.

TLDR: Both feats and narrative support UNSTACKED Naoya and Naobito being high into subsonic. The whole idea of saying they are "superhuman" is just wrong.

Spoiler: Maki VS Human Naoya

Alot of points are being ignored about this fight.

We only start seeing this fight midway through. The end of chapter 150 is simply Naoya confronting Maki after she has already wiped out the Zenin clan in front of their residence. By the very next page of chapter 151 (excluding the Naoya childhood flashbacks), the two are already in a completely different location. Despite this, neither Maki nor Naoya shows any visible injuries at that point. If Naoya were truly "miles faster" than Maki, she would have already been damaged multiple times off-screen. We later see that even single clean hits from Naoya are enough to draw blood, so the absence of injuries strongly implies that Maki had been keeping pace with him for the entire time, even while Naoya was continuously using Projection Sorcery. At no point is Naoya able to outright overwhelm her.

When Naoya does start landing hits, it is not because "he is faster". Throughout the opening exchange, Maki is focused on counting frames and understanding how Projection Sorcery functions. Naoya exploits this focus to grab her arm once which causes her to freeze. From there, he maintains pressure, preventing her from recovering or creating any space between them. This is being reduced to "Naoya overwhelms Maki", but what it actually shows is Naoya fighting with extreme intent, never letting her breathe because he knows that giving her room would allow her to counter, we literally see that Maki is still reacting to every single frame Naoya is making but she is being given no room to breath due to the damage and constants hits, even grunting in pain.

After that sequence, it is revealed that Maki has been heavily nerfed from the very start. She is suffering from blood loss and accumulated injuries from her fight with Ogi and the entire Zenin clan. This is a severely weakened Maki, and yet Naoya still fails to blitz her at any point, even with Projection Sorcery granting him the movement advantage. That context is why Maki decides on a head-on collision. She understands that in a prolonged fight against a top-speed Naoya, given her current physical condition, she would be at a major disadvantage. Ending the fight in a single blow is her best option.

Naoya baits that he's going for it (head-on collision), only to touch her with his palm instead and apply Projection Sorcery onto her. And even then, despite the technique, straight up restricting initial acceleration and movement in general, Maki immediately turns 180°, dodges Naoya’s kick, and counters with a punch directly to his face, all while Naoya is moving at top speed. In this moment, Maki straight up moves faster than Naoya, and that ends the fight

Extra note: The statement that “Naoya had already surpassed subsonic speed” does not imply that he only reached that level at that very moment, in-fact, the fact that Maki is the one making this conclusion implies that the speeds she's been seeing are already beyond subsonic. The fight had already been going on for an unknown amount of time beforehand, and Naoya is just not slowing down. He could very well have been moving beyond subsonic speeds from the beginning of what we see on-screen.

TLDR: At no point in this fight is Maki portrayed as inferior to human Naoya. If anything, the opposite is being shown, a severely weakened, blood loss ridden Maki consistently keeps up with him and is able to move faster than Naoya even while he is at top speed.

Spoiler: Maki VS Curse (+ Womb) Naoya

Another fight that in my opinion gets heavily oversimplified by hyper-focusing on a few isolated moments.

The fight begins with Cursed Womb Naoya descending from the sky towards Maki. She blocks the initial impact but is dragged along by the force. When Maki tries to counter with a punch, Naoya dodges extremely quickly, which surprises her, not solely because of his raw speed, but also because of a sensation according to Maki, this because, at this point, Maki does not realize that this is Naoya and that he has Projection Sorcery even as a curse. Naoya attempts to punch her, but she easily dodges said punch. She is only hit afterward because of Naoya's new elongated body allows his "tail" (not a tail but you get it) to catch her despite her dodging.

Kamo then helps in the fight by trying to hit Naoya with his attacks. Naoya dodges Kamo’s attacks by swooping away to a house's roof in the city below them, however, Maki, who was just there where they were, immediately catches up to his new position and throws him directly into the attack he just dodged and slashing him in two. This is not something a character who is "miles slower" can do.

After Kamo seemingly exorcises Cursed Womb Naoya, Curse Naoya appears and punches Kamo away. Seeing that Kamo survived by blocking with blood, Naoya dashes at him with the intent of killing him fast. Despite being visibly farther away, as she was on the building far below while Kamo was just punched deep into the forest behind him, Maki catches up to Naoya before he can reach Kamo, intercepting and cutting him mid-charge. On-panel, Maki is outright moving faster than Naoya. Cornered, Naoya decides to detonate the air around himself so he can escape, as he knows that he needs further acceleration to win.

This leads into the infamous Mach 3 dash, which is often misunderstood. There are two crucial factors here:

• First, Projection Sorcery makes blitzing significantly easier than raw speed. At Mach 3 (1029 m/s), using 24 frames per second means Naoya’s position effectively "updates" once every ~43 meters from someone's perspective. Reacting to that is fundamentally different from reacting to conventional movement speed, it is borderline impossible without precognition.
• Second, Maki was not trying to dodge this attack. The plan was to prepare an attack so Naoya could be countered mid-dash, just like she did back in the Human Naoya fight. This fails because Naoya accelerates far beyond what they were expecting, and they were not even fully prepared yet.

As a result, Maki is left in critical condition, as even her internal organs were damaged, leaving her, again, severely weakened. Despite this, later, when Naoya attempts to punch Kamo again, Maki still arrives while not even being visible on-screen before, once again covering a greater distance in less time than Naoya, even when still weakened.

After the sumo training, Naoya goes back to accelerating to Mach 3 as Kamo even notes. However, this time, a fully realized Maki easily dodges him and moves faster than him, even landing a punch on him mid-dash, once again covering more distance in less time than Naoya as seen by her movements line. Naoya reinforces this as he complains that he should be the one with overwhelming speed, not Maki.

The reason for this is made clear, Maki now perceives movement through changes in the air, allowing her to track movements in the same way sorcerers read cursed energy to see their opponent's movements. This completely nullifies Projection Sorcery’s "untrackable" advantage and forces the fight onto equal grounds, despite Naoya still possessing PS.

Everything after this point is irrelevant since we know that Naoya just resorts to his Domain Expansion and is killed by being stabbed in the back.

TLDR: Even in the fight against Cursed Womb and Curse Naoya, Maki consistently shows that she is indeed superior to Naoya in speed. Naoya is undeniably fast, I'm not denying that, but Maki repeatedly outpaces him, intercepts/tags him, and reacts faster than him. The narrative shows Maki having the speed advantage in that regard far more often than the reverse.

Spoiler: Extra Small Points

• Toji =Maki > Naobito > Naoya ; fairly obvious that Toji is faster than Naobito. The Zenin clan only existed up to the present day because of Toji’s whims, which implies that Toji could have wiped out the entire clan on his own, including Naobito. One of the clearest pieces of evidence how this also applies to speed is how Toji reaction-blitzes Naobito upon entering Dagon’s Domain (This is not anime-only, the anime just shows it better). Other points that support this are, Naobito is scared of Toji from his presence alone, Dagon, who was able to dodge a punch from one-armed Naobito without even looking and who had already fought a fully capable Naobito before this, is completely overwhelmed and surprised by Toji’s speed where Toji overwhelms Dagon far more than Naobito ever did. Naobito should logically scale above Naoya as he is referred to as the fastest jujutsu sorcerer other than Gojo, and this is reiterated even during the Curse Naoya fight, explicitly stating that even with Projection Sorcery, Naobito remains the fastest.
• Kenjaku > Piercing Blood ; I’ve already touched on this earlier, but it’s worth repeating for this section, Kenjaku consistently dodges Choso’s Piercing Blood with zero difficulty, even at near point-blank range. Piercing Blood has a baseline supersonic speed, and its speed just increases the more pressure is applied, something Choso should be doing. That means Kenjaku is easily superior and dodges attacks that exceed baseline supersonic speeds. Even when it's later fired at complete point-blank range, Kenjaku still has enough time to fully turn his head and react before it connects.
• Piercing blood should not cap speeds, in fact it just proves they are faster than supersonic ; As a small but important addition, Piercing Blood should not be used to cap anyone at supersonic either like Uraume who calls it fast. Choso is the most skilled Blood Manipulation user in the series, and his Piercing Blood has far greater pressure than the baseline technique, as proved by how Kamo get shocked by the one he uses against Uraume saying his power is extremely big which we know correlates to speed aswell as both rely on the pressure. Since the baseline Piercing Blood is already supersonic, Choso’s version, having pressure well beyond the standard, should be unquantifiably faster than supersonic, with its exact speed scaling just depending on how much pressure he applies. There is no numerical upper limit given, so there's no reason to use it as a cap and actually proves these characters are faster than Supersonic.

 

[KingTempest]

I will address my points primarily targeting why I believe in the Transonic cap. The Superhuman one, well, same as Rodriiogo. I will tackle his points in my next message while I give him the freedom to tackle my own points so that we do not have an endless back and forth.

Spoiler: How Projection Sorcery Works

Projection Sorcery is a technique utilized to increase the speed of a character by allowing them to Pre-Program their moves at extremely high speeds.
I'll note it as the rules of projection sorcery
1. Projection Sorcery allows the user to trace predetermined moves. It's akin to flip animation, except the transition moves do not exist. It is simply the primary movements that are being predetermined. AKA, there is no "punch, start to bring arm back, bring arm back, prepares next arm, throws punch, punch", it is only "punch 1, punch 2".
2. It works in a very strict 1/24 second timeframe. For every 24th of a second, there is 1 movement.
3. You can not alter the determined moves.
4. Those who are touched by a user of this technique must follow the same FPS. rule, and if they don't, they are frozen into a floating glass frame.

Spoiler: The Visible Caps in the Verse Showcasing the Limits of Speed in the Verse

1. The existence of Piercing Blood.​

Piercing Blood is a technique that utilizes the massive compression of blood in order to shoot it out at the speed of sound.
Piercing Blood is justified with its supersonic rating due to the frequent existence of sonic booms, utilized to showcase the speed truly reaching the speed of sound.
Note that if it isn't truly charged enough, it might not move at the speed of sound, and it'll be weaker.

The existence of Piercing Blood alone isn't just a showcase to the cap. The issue is that Piercing Blood is Choso's fastest move, showcasing that the other techniques don't move faster than sound. But with this in mind, he is still very capable of attacking his opponents.

Opponents in question

1. Naoya without Projection Sorcery​

Projection Sorcery requires a period of time to actually trace your movements.
Naobito mastered this and could quickly trace movements, which is why he was known as the fastest sorcerer ever. Naoya has not. So when he was being chased by the slow flowing river of blood, he was not utilizing his technique when he ran away from this technique, and through things like trickery and such, he was tagged by the slow blood.

2. Yuji​

Choso and Yuji fought. In their fight, when things like aim dodging weren't possible, Yuji was tagged by a myriad of moves from Choso, including blood meteorite, the move slower than Piercing Blood.

2. Projection Sorcery's Enhanced Speeds​

Projection Sorcery is utilized to increase the speed of the user over longer buildups of time. But initially, it is just unquantifiably faster than their base movement. Naoya and Naobito showcase that the speed of the Projection Sorcery isn't really astronomically fast in the sense of distance per frame, as we see them utilize basic melee movements over and over (these frames accurately represent the distance in the manga, I just linked them cause they looked cool, but it shows the melee distances covered by each frame).
We see that Naoya showcases this application against Maki.
Against Choso, he failed to utilize his cursed technique to build up his speed.
He notes that he will not make that same mistake against Maki, so he continuously amplified his speed until he surpassed subsonic speeds and reached transonic speeds.
Note that he had to build speed up to reach subsonic speeds. This showcases that prior to his amplification, aka during his base usages, he is not just slower than transonic speeds, but slower than subsonic speeds.
He also tries to make these speeds logical to physics.

After he is amplified to a Cursed Womb, he badly blitzes the likes of Kamo and Maki. It is noted that he is going > Mach 1 here (The purpose of the translation is to show that it's referring to his Cursed Womb state, since viz says "before", and people like to use the "before" to claim it's referring to him as a human).
After he amps himself as a full Cursed Spirit, he badly blitzes Maki while going at Mach 3.
Naoya doesn't solely utilize Projection Sorcery to reach these top speeds, so this isn't scaleable to Naobito in any way through solely Projection Sorcery. Naoya utilizes his Projection Sorcery, then alongside that he ejects air out of his body at incredible speeds to propel himself even further, then after built up acceleration through Jujutsu and Physics, he reaches Mach 3.

Victims of The Cursed Technique Speed Cap​

1. Grade 1 sorcerers and below​

Nanami and Maki are 2 strong sorcerers on the level of Grade 1 Sorcerers, yet even in that, Naobito rushes past them to hit Dagon, a Special Grade Cursed Spirit, and Nanami notes that his speed was too fast, to the extent that he couldn't even perceive his movement.
I'll copy and paste the OP.
Naoya by using Projection Sorcery could speedblitz both Itadori and Choso. Within the same timeframe, both Choso and Itadori could only move some centimeters while Naoya had moved several meters.

Actually, instead of just that, we can say...

2. All Sorcerers except for Gojo and Sukuna, and those who scale.​

Naobito is known as the fastest sorcerer besides Gojo. This is blatantly with the usage of Projection Sorcery, stated here too.
Maki was physically gifted to be on the level of high grade sorcerers, and even with that, she couldn't perceive a 1/24th second timeframe until she had her heavenly restriction.
Via our perceptions and reactions chart, 1/24 seconds, or 0.04167... is Superhuman, not even borderline Subsonic perception. Yet she needed an amp to be able to react to this.

3. Special Grade Cursed Spirits and below.​

Naobito instantly and quickly blitzes Dagon, who notes that Naobito might be faster than Jogo. We see that he actually is faster than Jogo.

4. Heavenly Restriction Users​

Naoya showcases his superiority to the likes of Maki in speed in their fight.
Off of the initial movements where he was covering much further distances than her (he threw whole punches across to her while she only had to swipe her arms in small movements), then after he tagged her, he repeatedly outsped, assaulted, and manhandled her with speed until she predicted his movement and tagged him.

It is noted that Maki is injured, but her injury does not excuse her lack of speed. The narrator notes that he's fast and that his speed's advantage is only boosted due to Maki's injuries, not any false pretense of "Maki is only slower because she's injured".

On top of that, a much healthier stable Maki states blatantly that regarding the Speed of Sound, it needs preparation.

I'll explain the reason as to why Maki vs Naoya is not a showcase of "Maki is faster than Naoya" in the counter message.

Regardless, with all of these characters, they show 2 things.
1. They struggle with these speeds.
2. They struggle with the timeframes.

The fact that no one was able to perceive them, regardless if they work frame by frame, still moving in their line of sight, shows that a 24th of a second is too small of a timeframe for them. So even if their perceptions were struggling, they could see things flicker in a 24th of a second if they were over transonic.

Spoiler: Supporting Showcases of the Speed Cap

1. Yuta and Higuruma Barely Notice the 0.01 Second Timeframe.​

Yuta and Higuruma, the 2nd most capable sorcerer alive at that point, and a sorcerer with immense potential, are the only ones in a room of capable top tiers (Yuji, Maki, Hakari, etc.) to notice a 0.01 difference, and they themselves barely even noticed it.
Via our perceptions and reactions chart, 0.01 is almost borderline Subsonic perception. Barely deep into Subsonic.

2. Mahito's 0.2 Domain Expansion​

After witnessing Gojo activate a Domain Expansion in 0.2 seconds, Mahito was inspired to do the same against Yuji and Todo.
So Mahito does it.
It's noted that Mahito is able to combine the processes of opening the domain and activating the cursed technique in 1 step, aka the whole process took 0.2 seconds.
Todo fails to activate his technique (which is why he was affected) and Yuji couldn't cover that distance in 0.2 seconds, showcasing that they do have more realistic limits of speed in the verse.

3. Hanami Fails to Land an Attack in 0.01 Seconds​

I'll just copy and paste the OP
Hanami's buds can't travel one meter within 0.01 seconds, and thus, are slower than 27m/s.

4. Todo's Upgrade Allows Him to do 50 Swaps per Second​

Todo lost an arm, and by gaining a vibraslap and changing the condition from a clap to a instrument blow, he became able to do 50 swaps per second.
This means that prior, he wasn't capable to do 50 claps per second, or 1 clap in 1/50th of a second, or (you won't believe it), 1 clap in 0.02 seconds.
To reach baseline subsonic speed (34.3 m/s), you need to move 0.686 meters in 0.02 seconds. This means that Todo, a top notch sorcerer who hasn't been in the field since early manga, yet can intercept the likes of Sukuna and others, can't cover 0.686 meters in 0.02 seconds. So if Todo is able to switch to intercept someone, it means they can't cover 0.686 meters in 0.02 seconds.

5. The mangaka noting an inverse feat​

Gege comments on Maki catching a bullet was kind of an excessive feat.

6. Everybody in the verse noting Piercing Blood as fast​

Yuji notes it as an incredibly fast blood beam.
Uraume notes it as a very fast blood beam.
The earlier scans showing it's the fastest blood manipulation move.

7. BOS Yuji considered fast​

This is Yuji without any physical training. He doesn't even know how to fully imbue cursed energy throughout his entire body yet.
Basically the same Yuji as BOS, who runs 50m in 3 seconds.
Todo says he has good speed.
Comparable/superior to Maki in agility. Actually, fully superior.
Megumi even says that BOS Yuji would beat anyone (Todo and Maki) in regular combat.
His pure speed outran Eso's cursed technique and damn near went FTE to Nobara, and Choso uses an inferior version of the same move that early Yuji outran.

 

[Rodriiogo]

This is my message on tackling KT's points; Will be the last one as KT said

Spoiler: Small Nitpick on the how PS works section

Projection Sorcery is a technique utilized to increase the speed of a character by allowing them to Pre-Program their moves at extremely high speeds.

This is a half-truth because while part of it is true yes, the technique does allow them to pre-program their movements at extremely high speeds, it is never and I mean NEVER said to increase speed at all. I already explained on my other message but let me add the fact that the story strictly says it increases speed IF you continuously build it by constantly using the technique, regularly it does not, and is never said to increase their speed and more that it actually makes their initial acceleration slower and makes them unable to move in ways that ignore the laws of physics. Nothing ever notes that Naoya and Naobito get their speed increased by it.

Spoiler: The existence of Piercing Blood

1. The existence of Piercing Blood.​

Piercing Blood is a technique that utilizes the massive compression of blood in order to shoot it out at the speed of sound.
Piercing Blood is justified with its supersonic rating due to the frequent existence of sonic booms, utilized to showcase the speed truly reaching the speed of sound.
Note that if it isn't truly charged enough, it might not move at the speed of sound, and it'll be weaker.

The existence of Piercing Blood alone isn't just a showcase to the cap. The issue is that Piercing Blood is Choso's fastest move, showcasing that the other techniques don't move faster than sound. But with this in mind, he is still very capable of attacking his opponents.

First off, small nitpick, that section linked on "Choso's fastest move" doesn't prove it's undeniably his fastest move and nothing else compares. Simply that Piercing Blood is fast, I am saying this because of something that I will talk about in the "Yuji" section.

Piercing Blood can not be used as a cap to anyone. The supersonic rating is for even the weakest piercing blood as that's how the technique works. It takes compressed blood from convergence and launches it at supersonic speeds, however, the more pressure exerted by convergence, the stronger and faster it will be. Supersonic is just bare minimum as seen by someone like Kamo, Kamo's piercing blood is likely the weakest we've seen in the series yet it's already supersonic as seen by how it still causes a sonic boom against Hanami even with a very small amount of blood. (Small Note: Keep in mind that they felt the need for Toge to freeze Hanami before he used it. Weird strategy for something that would blitz Hanami regardless right?) , so even a small very small amount of blood from someone with weaker blood manipulation can already launch supersonic piercing bloods. Choso is the most skilled Blood Manipulation user in the entire series, and his Piercing Blood has far greater pressure than the baseline technique, as proved by how Kamo get shocked by the power of the one he uses against Uraume which we know correlates to speed aswell as both rely on the pressure. Since the baseline Piercing Blood is already supersonic, Choso’s version, having pressure and blood well beyond the standard, should be unquantifiably faster than supersonic, with its exact speed scaling just depending on how much pressure he applies. There is no numerical upper limit given, so there's no reason to use it as a cap and actually proves characters like Kenjaku are faster than Supersonic.

1. Naoya without Projection Sorcery​

Projection Sorcery requires a period of time to actually trace your movements.
Naobito mastered this and could quickly trace movements, which is why he was known as the fastest sorcerer ever. Naoya has not. So when he was being chased by the slow flowing river of blood, he was not utilizing his technique when he ran away from this technique, and through things like trickery and such, he was tagged by the slow blood.

Naoya does say that he can use his technique to trace movements just like Naobito can. And the same Naoya with 0 acceleration and likely not using Projection Sorcery was confident he could easily dodge piercing blood at a distance of around 3 meters. He was not tagged by the wave normally at all, first off even when backing away he calls the wave a "slow attack", Choso quite literally outpaces the wave himself despite being slower than Naoya himself. And we also see him dashing towards it when dodging piercing blood and he's able to get meters away from it again even after approaching to only centimeters away from it before it splashed onto him. He is way faster than that wave even without PS. He only gets tagged by it because Choso, who adapted to his movements and was using FRSS, kicked him into it so he got splashed.

2. Yuji​

Choso and Yuji fought. In their fight, when things like aim dodging weren't possible, Yuji was tagged by a myriad of moves from Choso, including blood meteorite, the move slower than Piercing Blood.

I already explained in the first section here why Choso's piercing blood is not simply "capped at supersonic" but to address the other points here, the first attacks that tag Yuji are Supernovas which are not slower than piercing blood. They function through convergence in the same way by releasing it, the attack is essentially alot of compressed blood to create a explosion of Mini Piercing Bloods. The same supernovas force Kenjaku to rely on Gravity Technique when he's surrounded by them, despite him being more than fast enough to dodge Piercing Blood at near point-blank range, and even reacting fast enough to rotate his head while DIRECTLY at point-blank. As for Blood Meteorite, Yuji himself says he only got hit by it because he got careless and didn't think there were more projectiles, if he was focusing it would not have hit him. I'd also like to say this is Shibuya Yuji, who was way weaker than even his culling game self, he gets way stronger (and faster) since then, and even then he says he has a 50% chance of dodging piercing blood which even gave him the confidence to get close.

Spoiler: Projection Sorcery's Enchanced Speeds and the people who get capped

2. Projection Sorcery's Enhanced Speeds​

Projection Sorcery is utilized to increase the speed of the user over longer buildups of time. But initially, it is just unquantifiably faster than their base movement. Naoya and Naobito showcase that the speed of the Projection Sorcery isn't really astronomically fast in the sense of distance per frame, as we see them utilize basic melee movements over and over (these frames accurately represent the distance in the manga, I just linked them cause they looked cool, but it shows the melee distances covered by each frame).
We see that Naoya showcases this application against Maki.
Against Choso, he failed to utilize his cursed technique to build up his speed.
He notes that he will not make that same mistake against Maki, so he continuously amplified his speed until he surpassed subsonic speeds and reached transonic speeds.
Note that he had to build speed up to reach subsonic speeds. This showcases that prior to his amplification, aka during his base usages, he is not just slower than transonic speeds, but slower than subsonic speeds.
He also tries to make these speeds logical to physics.

After he is amplified to a Cursed Womb, he badly blitzes the likes of Kamo and Maki. It is noted that he is going > Mach 1 here (The purpose of the translation is to show that it's referring to his Cursed Womb state, since viz says "before", and people like to use the "before" to claim it's referring to him as a human).
After he amps himself as a full Cursed Spirit, he badly blitzes Maki while going at Mach 3.
Naoya doesn't solely utilize Projection Sorcery to reach these top speeds, so this isn't scaleable to Naobito in any way through solely Projection Sorcery. Naoya utilizes his Projection Sorcery, then alongside that he ejects air out of his body at incredible speeds to propel himself even further, then after built up acceleration through Jujutsu and Physics, he reaches Mach 3.

(For mods) I have addressed all of this in the "Maki VS Human Naoya" and "Maki VS Curse (+ Womb) Naoya" sections and why it doesn't cap people like Maki. Just gonna say this so I don't flood the chat with the same explanation.

(I will skip the 1st and 3rd once because i don't disagree with Naoya/Naobito are faster than the disaster curses and grade 1 sorcerers)

2. All Sorcerers except for Gojo and Sukuna, and those who scale.​

Naobito is known as the fastest sorcerer besides Gojo. This is blatantly with the usage of Projection Sorcery, stated here too.
Maki was physically gifted to be on the level of high grade sorcerers, and even with that, she couldn't perceive a 1/24th second timeframe until she had her heavenly restriction.
Via our perceptions and reactions chart, 1/24 seconds, or 0.04167... is Superhuman, not even borderline Subsonic perception. Yet she needed an amp to be able to react to this.

Okay, this calculation is wrong. 0.04167 would be the time that it takes for Naoya and Naobito to go from one frame to the other, that isn't how frames work cause this is acting like Naoya and Naobito just stand still for those 0.04167 seconds in one frame before appearing in the other. As I already explained in my Projection Sorcery section:

That's simply how Projection Sorcery works. Humans don't move at "24FPS" normally so tracking a movement like that is nearly impossible during a fight. For example with Top speed Naoya, he is dashing at the speed of sound so he should be moving 343 meters in a second, but at 24FPS, from the person looking's perspective it'd look like they are teleporting even if you have equal speed to him as each 1/24 of a second they have to move over 14 meters while only 24 frames are visible. So it'd look like this regardless of how fast you are:

Being comparable to Naoya in speed, does not mean you will be able to track him here because he'd still be teleporting 14 meters from ur perspective, if you don't know WHERE he's gonna go like Maki with her precognition against Curse Naoya or her prediction against Human Naoya, you are completely unable to tag him.

To better show my point I will just show the anime since it potrayed what I mean decently well, imagine you are comparable to someone in speed but, despite moving the same distance in the same time (same speed) as you, they move at you like this:

Would you be able to track them? No right?
That's how PS works.
Even if you use it as an actual real time second as the time for Naoya's movements (which is already stupid as I already explained)
Since Naoya is leaving the intervals between each frame without anything while still moving in-between them, each frame would disappear in just 0.003239390994 seconds after appearing (Transonic reactions) so the speed for you to react to A SINGLE FRAME OF NAOYA appearing before it disappears would already require transonic reactions. Guess who, even when weakened, reacts to every single one of Naoya's frames appearing and disappearing, counting them and even being able to block every single one of them.

Via the correct calculation, you would actually need a reaction speed of at least 0.003239390994 seconds to react to each frame Naoya and Naobito make, which Maki does quite easily. That's Transonic Reactions. Maki before the "amp" was also only a candidate for Grade 1 and weaker + slower than Todo and Kyoto Yuji, she wasn't at all compared to high grade sorcerers, let alone special grades like Yuta.

4. Heavenly Restriction Users​

Naoya showcases his superiority to the likes of Maki in speed in their fight.
Off of the initial movements where he was covering much further distances than her (he threw whole punches across to her while she only had to swipe her arms in small movements), then after he tagged her, he repeatedly outsped, assaulted, and manhandled her with speed until she predicted his movement and tagged him.

She was still blocking all of them though? Do you think Naoya was purposefully missing all his punches here? She was also counting every single frame he was using in the same image. She was indeed reacting to every single punch and frame of Naoya here.

As for the repeated hits on her, this is being reduced to "Naoya blitzes Maki" for no reason, Naoya is just not letting her breathe because he knows that giving her room would allow her to counter, we literally see that Maki is still reacting to every single frame Naoya is making but she is being given no room to breath due to the damage and constants hits, even grunting in pain. It isn't a proof of higher speed.

It is noted that Maki is injured, but her injury does not excuse her lack of speed. The narrator notes that he's fast and that his speed's advantage is only boosted due to Maki's injuries, not any false pretense of "Maki is only slower because she's injured".

The narrator says that Maki got to the conclusion that a prolonged fight with someone that surpassed subsonic speeds would be a disadvnatage for her because of her injuries, not denying that Naoya is fast, but the only reason Maki got to that conclusion is because of her current state, not because "Naoya is too fast". The narrator is implying that if Maki wasn't injured she'd be able to fight Naoya for longs amount of time and not be at the disadvantage. Nerfs in JJK because of injury have always been massive aswell, even to speed, Naobito went from being the fastest sorcerer to being slower than Jogo because he lost his arm.

On top of that, a much healthier stable Maki states blatantly that regarding the Speed of Sound, it needs preparation.

First off, "speed of sound" is being used as an umbrella term here. She straight up admits Cursed Womb Naoya is supersonic, she would have no reason to think Curse Naoya, who she says is faster, is coming at her at the literal "speed of sound" after accelerating. Second off, she is not saying that "speed of sound needs preparation". She is saying that they should prepare an attack and hit Naoya just like she herself did back in the Human Naoya fight, where, even if she did indeed prepare, she moved faster than him regardless. I will say it again, the issue is not just raw speed EVEN IF Naoya is indeed fast, Projection Sorcery is an issue.

Spoiler: Supporting Showcases

2. Mahito's 0.2 Domain Expansion​

After witnessing Gojo activate a Domain Expansion in 0.2 seconds, Mahito was inspired to do the same against Yuji and Todo.
So Mahito does it.
It's noted that Mahito is able to combine the processes of opening the domain and activating the cursed technique in 1 step, aka the whole process took 0.2 seconds.
Todo fails to activate his technique (which is why he was affected) and Yuji couldn't cover that distance in 0.2 seconds, showcasing that they do have more realistic limits of speed in the verse.

First off, the whole process of 0.2 seconds isn't just the opening of the domain and the activation of the technique. It is the time of the domain opening, expanding, applying the technique and closign that takes in total 0.2 seconds. Second, this doesn't even work because of the next point with Todo that you also used as proof.

3. Hanami Fails to Land an Attack in 0.01 Seconds​

I'll just copy and paste the OP
Hanami's buds can't travel one meter within 0.01 seconds, and thus, are slower than 27m/s.

The Hanami's "0.01" seconds timeframe comes from the time elapsed in real life compared to Todo's mind. The issue here is that this is also implying Todo had this whole line of thinking and disengaged his CE in just 0.01 seconds, which just actually means Todo has AT LEAST Subsonic perception and CE usage. Which makes no sense if we apply this to hanami's speed since it means Todo's perception and CE usage is over 3x, almost 4x faster than Hanami's attacks and Hanami himself.

I'd also now like to add the one I skipped over because of this:

1. Yuta and Higuruma Barely Notice the 0.01 Second Timeframe.​

Yuta and Higuruma, the 2nd most capable sorcerer alive at that point, and a sorcerer with immense potential, are the only ones in a room of capable top tiers (Yuji, Maki, Hakari, etc.) to notice a 0.01 difference, and they themselves barely even noticed it.
Via our perceptions and reactions chart, 0.01 is almost borderline Subsonic perception. Barely deep into Subsonic.

This would mean everyone there has a slower perception time than Kyoto Todo which as you even said above with Maki's amp it makes no sense. The timeframes don't support one another, and are contradicting themselves instead so they can't be used together to make it "More supporting proof" if each proof contradicts one another, if anything this just proves all this type of "timeframe statements" are inconsistent and shouldn't be used. The same applies to point 4.


Extra note about the timeframes
This is something I said in the beginning of the thread, and I will say it again now, this just feels like we are using stated timeframes as the absolute cap of the verse despite all their consistent feats being higher and multiple narrative showings of them being just faster than the eye can see (blatant subsonic). It's the same argument as "Tournament of Power takes 48 minutes" or "Fusion takes 30 minutes" in Dragon Ball, it's true yes but it shouldn't be used as a way to cap the verse if the feats showed by said verse are visibly way higher. Mangakas and authors in general add timeframes for immersion purposes and as we can see they sometimes mess up and contradict eachother. And that's fine but using them as "debunking scaling" stuff is weird.
There's multiple other timeframes and just blatant stuff in JJK that prove subsonic or higher scaling aswell:

• As I said before, I'm gonna use the feat you just showed against you now, Todo can have a whole thinking process and disengage his own Cursed Energy in just 0.01 seconds. That is a subsonic timeframe and he managed to not only percieved it but also have that entire thinking process before disengaging his Cursed Energy.
• Random Zenin clan members who are explicitly said to be "slow" are still shown to be FTE (Anime adaptation makes this intent even clearer)
• Naoya and Naobito's movements work on 24 frames per second, even when moving beyond Subsonic speeds, at around the speed of sound when at top speed, Weakened Maki is able to react to each of those frames, count them and even move faster than them when up-close. Using baseline transonic speed of 308.7m/s since only 14 frames would appear over an entire second, they would need to disappear after appearing at least every 1/308.7 = 0.003239390994 seconds as that's the time it'd take for Naoya to move at least 1 meter so the previous frame would disappear. That's transonic reactions (obviously). And the fact that Maki moves faster than him just supports that level of speed.
• Gojo claims that if the entire secret behind landing a Black Flash was the timeframe of 0.000001 seconds, then he'd be able to land it at will. That's Massively Hypersonic+. Which is not inconsistent as we also have a calculation for a Sukuna who Gojo MASSIVELY upscales also having a Massively Hypersonic perception/reaction time.

And just.. the great amount of calculated (Some even VISIBLY just FTE at the very least or blatantly higher) feats lol, even ignoring multiple others that are not in the verse's page:

(Not including higher ones and stuff that only Gojo and Sukuna scale to just to be fair, I'm also not including stuff like Hakari and Kashimo's lighting etc here but those are obviously other stuff that could be used to say that capping at superhuman-subsonic is just NOT consistent)

There's also the obvious elephant in the room with Dabura's speed in Modulo variying from Relativistic to Light speed but we will see how that goes in next chapters with Yuji and stuff.

5. The mangaka noting an inverse feat​

Gege comments on Maki catching a bullet was kind of an excessive feat.

Never understood this myself. he's not saying it is an excessive feat, he wondered if it was at the time of making but then it turned out fine. (I couldn't find the page in english online so I just took a photo from my own physical copy lol) the whole context is that he was talking about the whole process of making said chapter. He thought that her catching the bullet would be too much but it worked out at the end.

6. Everybody in the verse noting Piercing Blood as fast​

Yuji notes it as an incredibly fast blood beam.
Uraume notes it as a very fast blood beam.
The earlier scans showing it's the fastest blood manipulation move.

I explained above why Piercing Blood from Choso is not a cap at supersonic, why supernovas aren't contradictions, and, again, Kenjaku quite literally dodges it at near point-blank range and straight up point-blank.

7. BOS Yuji considered fast​

This is Yuji without any physical training. He doesn't even know how to fully imbue cursed energy throughout his entire body yet.
Basically the same Yuji as BOS, who runs 50m in 3 seconds.
Todo says he has good speed.
Comparable/superior to Maki in agility. Actually, fully superior.
Megumi even says that BOS Yuji would beat anyone (Todo and Maki) in regular combat.
His pure speed outran Eso's cursed technique and damn near went FTE to Nobara, and Choso uses an inferior version of the same move that early Yuji outran.

I'm confused here.
First off that's travel speed, completely unrelated to R/C.
Second off, most of the scans here are after Yuji learnt Cursed Energy through his training with Gojo and aren't "BOS Yuji".

• So the same Todo that can percieve/have a whole process of thinking in 0.01 seconds? That Todo? Also, this is combat speed, not travel speed:
• Maki's superiority is with Cursed Energy, and again, combat speed;
• Megumi's statement is a fight where CE is not involved;
• "Outran Eso technique", this is Shibuya Yuji, with CE involved, "damn near went FTE to Nobara", yes so how can he be superhuman at that point in the story? Are you implying Nobara has below average human reactions that 16m/s is "almost FTE" to her? "Choso uses an inferior version of the same move that early Yuji outran" it being a imitation/copy doesn't prove it is slower, and that's the same fight where Kenjaku no diffs Piercing Blood's > Supersonic speed so like...?

With that I'm done as that was the agreement (Me and KT send points, respond each, and now wait for mods)
Re-iterating that my option in the thread in general is the "Remove any kind of speed cap"

 

[KingTempest]

This is my message countering Rod's points. @Rodriiogo I appreciate you for the agreement btw, makes threads like this smoother.
Sorry for the length in advance.

Spoiler: Regarding the Dodging of Piercing Blood, and Other Things

Inconsistent Paneling​

Not too long ago, there were threads made about reaction speeds, specifically tackling how there is a common trope of characters to fail to perceive an attack from several meters away, then they notice it when it gets close and they move astronomical speeds afterwards. It's intended to show how narrow their capabilities of dodging is.

Unfortunately, the verse of JJK abuses this. Many times.
We see characters like Uraume stare down a Piercing Blood from 6 meters away yet he only narrowly blocks it when it appears close to him, yet with the calc (specifically the crossed out version) we see that he's basically relative to the feat.
Kenjaku's commonly calced to be twice as fast as the piercing blood that he needed to dodge from several meters away and could only act when it was in his face.
Shit, with the lineups of calcs of Yuji dodging and blocking Piercing Blood, the move from over 10 meters away that he said was "too fast", HE'S FASTER THAN IT IN ALMOST ALL OF THE CALCS.

There's a lot more examples that people love to abuse too even outside of piercing blood.
We see the famous Hakari lightning dodge, Kamo blocking Naoya, Maki's bullet catch, and a lot more.

Jujutsu Kaisen has a serious issue when it comes to these dodging feats, or rather the fandom. Gege's intention is to show that there were narrow dodges, but the fandom uses it as "consistency that they're faster than the author stated". Especially for techniques implied to be the fastest things in the verse.
It is a serious problem when we see throughout the thread that these types of feats are being used as "the authors intention" because he drew feats meant for hype, yet they're being used to go against his intention.

These need to be addressed, cap or not.

I motion to honestly, ignore these feats. Or if we do calc the feats, use the full distance. Because these feats are now being used to break canon established scaling and statements for the sole purpose of proving that characters are faster than they really are. Yuji being relative to a move he says is "too fast" from over half a dozen meters away showcases the issue.

Spoiler: Reply to Naoya and Naobito's Non-Stacking Speed

This message is basically just a huge reply to "feats vs statements", but the feats regarded are just... bad.

Rodriiogo's entire point with Projection Sorcery was that people can react to them, but the whole issue of Projection Sorcery was that they're basically teleporting, aka "they're fast, but they don't blitz people because of speed, but they blitz people because they're teleporting".
Why would calculations showcasing them blitzing now be legit to show that they're casually subsonic... but in the same breath whenever people are shown to be blitzed by them, you consider it an issue of "perception diff"?
You can't eat your cake and have it. Either they are much faster than the cast, utilizing their 24 fps statement to showcase that they're slow, or their technique's framage makes them appear to teleport, making their blitz feats illegitimate.

The only ones free from this example are the piercing blood dodge (which I brought up), and those guys apparently being FTE cause they "blitzed the reader" like an old famous calc calced.
The Piercing Blood one also isn't as solid as thought about. Dodging something from 2 meters away means little unless you're moving relative distances. He just shifted his already moving body a little bit over, seems to be barely .2 meters, under subsonic.

Also, regarding those zen'in assassins, they aren't called slow in speed, they're called slow in efficiency. Commonly in this thread and in other threads, statements referring to 1 thing (slow inefficient killers) is being taken to mean another (slow in movement), and because people don't look too deep into it, it's made to seem like it's proving a big point when in fact it's not.

Regarding the other techniques
Wave: The wave isn't slow. He was ******** himself from the wave. Not to say the wave is super fast or that it's even faster than him, but that wasn't the target of his insult. The thing he called slow was whatever slow projectile he weaved with his head. He never knocked the wave's speed, which is why he said "it's probably slow cause he lost a lot of blood", not "it's slow cause it's the wave". And this is far before he even perceived that Choso could use Piercing Blood, so it definitely wasn't even in comparison to that.
Supernova: Not expecting a move that you're staring at to fire at you is a cop out. Now although I do consider supernova slower than Piercing Blood, it's much harder to dodge a subsonic omnidirectional attack than a transonic beeline one, especially when you're being weighted down by your legs.
Supernova is slower than Piercing Blood, most definitely. Supernova is just an omnidirectional explosion of blood, while Piercing Blood is the mass ejection of blood being focused out through 1 medium. This is why in the fanbook, the only move noted to be faster than sound is the Piercing Blood.
It makes no sense for Piercing Blood, Supernova, and more to be on 1 page, and the only move stated to move faster than sound is the one being shot out, the Piercing Blood, if they both did it. It's like saying Goku can break a wall with a kamehameha if every single move in his arsenal could do it. It makes no sense unless it's a unique technique for that application.

Spoiler: Reply to Maki VS Human Naoya

#1 We can't tell that they're in a different location because the first fight has a bunch of movement lines. All we know that it was in the same general area since Naoya could crawl back home.
#2 Rodriiogo fails to understand that although characters are faster than other characters, they do not immediately defeat them solely because there is a big gap in speed.
My favorite example is Superman vs the Flash. We see that the Trigon-Flash is most definitely obviously superior in speed, but Superman can tag him, even catch him. That is shown in this fight.
#3 Maki, although showcasing inferiority in speed, can track those movements. But tracking movements isn't the same as being comparable in speed.
We see earlier that Choso, with a visual amp, can track Naoya. Choso is still slower than him.
Now on top of that, Maki was trying to figure out the cursed technique. We see this in the end of the fight where Maki, although tagged by Naoya, didn't freeze. She didn't freeze because she finally understood the technique, that you need to make a movement for every 24th of a second. Which brings me to my first important point.

1. Maki Was a Victim of Projection Sorcery​

Maki, being touched by Naoya, was forced to move in a 1/24 second timeframe. Because of this, she was at risk of being frozen for 1 second.
But instead of this, Maki, due to witnessing Naobito's ability and repeatedly timing out the limits of the ability, discovered that it was 24 frames per second.
Showcasing that she had to move her next movements in that timeframe.
And if Maki was a victim of projection sorcery, it means something else too

2. Maki Intercepting Naoya is Not a Showcase of Superior Speed​

The anime shows it very well, but the anime is not canon, and I do not want to fully base my arguments on non-canon.
If Maki is moving at 24 fps, it means that in the entire motion where she turned her body around happened at a 24 fps rate. Whether she teleported, legitimately moved, whatever, she did move in either a 24th of a second, or greater (larger) timeframe. And if she did do that, it means that her body turned around a melee distance, in a 24th of a second.
What does that show?

3. Slower People can Combat Faster People​

Rodriiogo fails to understand that you can intercept fast objects while moving slower, in fact you can do it while moving much slower. For Naoya to still run several meters while all she does is rotate her body, there is no reason as to why it's considered that she "outsped him".
Regarding dodging Naoya's kick, she could already time out his movements. Safe to say she could've started to dodge before he got into melee distances.

The entire fight is intended to show that Maki is a capable fighter who can combat individuals faster than her, and to minimize the fight just to say "Maki's faster than Naoya", it's disrespectful to Maki as a fighter.

I already showed the panel where I believe Naoya exceeded subsonic speeds when he started forming afterimages with his running, so that's that as well.

Spoiler: Reply to Maki VS Curse (+ Womb) Naoya

My message of "Inconsistent Paneling", this whole fight shows it. But not just inconsistent paneling, but the versions of speed that take place.

Casual vs Max Speed Womb​

1. Cursed Womb Naoya (Second Shown)
2. Max Speed Cursed Womb Naoya (First Shown)
Note that the Max Speed is the one who had hundreds of meters worth accelerating. Initially, it wasn't Mach 1, which is why Kamo noted that he could see it coming down.
After it touched ground, it accelerated even more, finally shattering all the windows after hitting the ground (it would've destroyed the ground after touching it if it went at top speed from the jump), then it ran straight for Kamo, and it went at top speed, which is why although Kamo could see it falling initially, he couldn't see it running after.
The slower version is the one who dodged Maki here.
On top of that, it shows that Maki wasn't going against the Supersonic Cursed Womb, but a slower version. He canonically creates large sonic booms destroying the environment, yet this time he didn't do so. Maki did not go blow for blow with a Supersonic Naoya.

Maki ran up to Naoya to grab him. Maki also, like I said in my previous messages, has no cursed energy, so Naoya has no way of sensing her arrival. So Maki, physically superior, caught him while he wasn't moving, threw him, then attacked him while he didn't have control of his own body. This is not a testament of Maki's speed, and we need to stop treating it like it is.

Casual vs Max Speed Spirit​

The inconsistent paneling starts here. Showing a bullshit narrow block made to seem as if he's on Naoya's level of speed.
Maki intercepting him from a much further distance is another showing. Maki is blatantly not faster than him. Either that, or he isn't using Projection Sorcery at the moment since we can see his movements, and apparently Projection Sorcery allows damn near frame teleportation, showing that tracking his movements would be impossible.
So either
A. Maki's faster than Naoya without his speed technique.
B. Maki's feat of intercepting him is inconsistent with the other showings.
Please note that for these next few feats, Kamo doesn't have the blood around his eye, showing that he's not using Flowing Red Scale, the technique that amplifies your combat, reaction, and perception speeds.
After his famed Mach 3 blitz, we see Kamo tag him. We now know that all because you're faster than someone doesn't mean that you're untouchable.
He then intercepts him again, showing he wasn't moving at max speed.

The next page, we see a statement referring to his regular state (which is why it talks about his regular durability), and it says that that same form is FASTER THAN ANYTHING. It makes very little sense for Kamo to frequently track Maki then say Naoya is faster than anything if Maki is faster than Naoya.

Some new dudes come in the fight, and Maki returns as well, intercepting that same Naoya.
She hands Daido, the swordsman who can't see Cursed Spirits, her Soul Split Katana, and he cuts apart Naoya.
She sees this. And after gaining a new body meant to put her on the level of Toji Fushiguro, she questions something.
What's the difference between her and Toji?
Maki then gains a new ability.

The Ability to Smell Light and See Sound​

Maki wrestles with Miyo to gain the ability of True Freedom.

At the moment of impact, everything that led up to entering the ring flows into the combatants. It's like smelling light or seeing sound, you sense everything about your opponent and yourself, and then the person in front of you, even victory and defeat, become meaningless.

Naoya and Maki then play keep away.

I want everyone to know that this doesn't say "I should be the one with overwhelming speed", it says "I should be overwhelming you with speed".
Wording is everything.
I should be the one with overwhelming speed = I should be the fast one, not you.
I should be overwhelming you with speed = I'm faster than you, my speed should be beating you.

This was not a deliberate attempt to fool anyone, honest mistake, but the wording changes everything.

Maki is now untouchable.

Notice in the panels that Naoya hasn't reached Mach 1 yet. We know this because he hasn't reached the speed to where he's shattering glass with air pressure, instead he keeps crashing into buildings trying to hit Maki. We know he didn't get the same time to prepare to get to Mach 3 because Maki left early to intercept him.
Even with this speed, although he can't tag Maki, we see he outspeeds her. He covers larger distances than her in the same timeframe.
And no, I use this travel speed anti-showing because a previous showing for her speed being "superior" than his was her outrunning him.

He finally reaches mach 1, which is why the windows shatter now.
And with that speed, he tries to tag her, but she dodges in mid air due to her new ability to touch mid-air surfaces.
Notice in all this, he never calls her fast. He is just surprised with her abilities. Dodging in mid air should be impossible.

Then he runs around a building and she jumps off 2 blocks of air and punches him in his side. This isn't her being faster, it's her timing where he is and hitting him. The paneling just makes it seem like she did quick motions, all it meant to show was that she could time him.

On top of that, he's clearly not moving at Mach 1 anymore.
1. He needs to accelerate to reach Mach 1. He kept frequently stopping and he was just stagnant before this showing that he didn't accelerate to that speed again.
2. The windows of buildings he ran around/through weren't breaking. His Mach speed is known for doing that.

So whatever version of Naoya Maki hit, it wasn't the fast one.

This message is big, but I showcase it to tackle very crucial points.

1. Maki is not faster than Naoya. Statements and showings show that she isn't. Only certain panels Rod looks at make it seem like it is when in fact it's diabolically contradicted.
2. Maki constantly notes him as fast when he never does the same.
3. Maki keeps up with Naoya based on his willingness to use his CT and her own abilities
4. Kamo says Naoya's speed is unparalleled, and this is while fighting alongside Maki.

Spoiler: Reply to Extra Small Points

Spoiler: Toji is not faster than Naobito

Toji and Maki are not faster than Naobito and Naoya.
Taking statements of superiority of overall capability is not valid when talking about certain departments.
In all of his statements, Toji is noted to be fully capable of slaughtering the Zen'in clan. But this is not something to say "he's faster than all of them". It's more of "He's a killer who didn't want to kill them all". This is why when Maki wanted to kill them all, she did. Not through statements of overpowering speed, but through being an efficient killer on the likes of Toji.
Toji and Naobito are noted as equals in fact.

The overhypification of Toji's presence "blitzing" Naobito minimizes the entire sequence of Toji's appearance.
Naobito reacts to his movement. In fact, they all do.
Naobito is shocked because Toji was DEAD. Toji was a corpse the last time Naobito saw him.
So when Naobito saw him again, he was ******** himself. Not because he's stronger and faster, but because the KILLING MACHINE is back in the land of the living.
That's why when they asked Naobito who he was, he said "a ghost".

Now to compare, because there is a drastic simplification of the showcase of speed.
When Naobito fought Dagon, he bodied him badly. Dagon couldn't even think about validly getting into a fight with Naobito without his domain.
Dagon's Domain amplifies Dagon's stats, but it also spawns Shikigami against sorcerers as a "Can't Miss attack" that all domains have.
And it's not like they spawn then home in on them, no they SPAWN ON THEM. They don't exist until they hit them.
Naobito is fine though. He utilizes a technique to instantly attack them, but through the sheer number of them, he can't see. He blatantly notes that they blocked his view so Dagon could hit him.
Because of that, Naobito couldn't keep his technique up, and he lost an arm, but he still withstood the onslaught.

Megumi then enters the domain, and with his presence inside the domain, the Can't Miss attack is now mitigated.
When Naobito was done dealing with the shikigami, he threw a punch at Dagon, but he wasn't using his cursed technique to amplify his speed. We know this because when you touch someone while the ability is active, they freeze if they aren't moving at the frame rate.
He blocked a stream of shikigami and they didn't freeze for a long distance.
Afterwards, he activated his technique, the shikigami froze, and he destroyed it.

Naobito never struggled in speed with Dagon. Dagon couldn't handle him.

What did Toji deal with?
Toji has no cursed energy. Because he has no cursed energy, he can't be targeted by Can't Misses of Domains.
The can't miss of the domain was already disabled by Megumi.
He then was given a weapon (he stole it from Maki) and used it to whoop Dagon's ass and destroy his Shikigami that couldn't spawn on him.
Dagon jumps in the air to buy time. He's right in front of Toji by the way. But who reaches it first? Naobito. Naobito jumps in the air before Toji does, then pushes Dagon down on Toji.

Naobito had to deal with
1. An endless stream of Shikigami instantly spawning on him
2. A blocked view
3. Sneak attacks
4. Attacking with his arms, soon being arm

Toji had to deal with
1. Shikigami weaker than him not spawning on his body
2. A free view
3. Attacks he could see coming
4. One of the strongest weapons in the verse

This is not a valid reason to say he's faster than Naobito.

I already tackled the Piercing Blood ones. So that's that.

Spoiler: Conclusion

Everything I've wanted to say has been said. They have no reason to not fit under the cap, nor does anyone. It takes a flawed feats > statements POV and it tries to use it to say that certain characters are faster than they are. That's really it from me.

Sorry for how long it was.

 

[KingTempest]

Bump.

 

[Dalesean027]

i'm taking time reading through, I'll have my answer sometime later in the day

 

[KingTempest]

Thank you Dale. I've told some other staff offsite (I just sent it and pinged a bunch of ppl) so I won't worry.

Regardless thank you @Rodriiogo for your good rectitude, regardless of opinion

 

[Dalesean027]

yeah I can't lie gang, I got burnt out catching up on my wiki backlog of work/evals and got too mentally tired while reading this, so apologies. Tomorrow for sure

 

[KingTempest]

No rush brudda

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Okay so finally got around to reading through the thread and I'm more leaning towards a transonic and mach 3 cap though I think that a post-sumo key has enough evidence that makes sense in my eyes that I'd be fine with accepting that.

To make it more clear, I'm for either the 2nd or 3rd options presented in the OP, fine with either.

 

[KingTempest]

Okay so finally got around to reading through the thread and I'm more leaning towards a transonic and mach 3 cap though I think that a post-sumo key has enough evidence that makes sense in my eyes that I'd be fine with accepting that.

To make it more clear, I'm for either the 2nd or 3rd options presented in the OP, fine with either.

Thank you

Bump

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah i'm in the same boat as Abaddon, the transonic and mach 3 cap is making sense to me after reading each points made by those above so I'm for either options 2 or 3 as well

 

[Duedate8898]

I'll throw my hat behind option 3.

 

[KingTempest]

Concensus?

 

[KingTempest]

Bump

 

[Dalesean027]

What's left here? There's already sufficient votes