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Jujutsu Kaisen Downgrade
- Thread starter FanSyst
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- jujutsu kaisen maki zenin
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SOL Haku is currently accepted for his ice mirrors on site, so bad example
Maki's bullet dodge doesnt matter much but can still get supersonic with the lowest of assumptions.
More importantly as I explained above Hakari's feats off of kashimo's lightning are valid
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Because it's not consistent, hence the discussion.
Not in the slightest comparable. We don't have one outlier feat from a mid tier. We have several feats spread out across the manga that are all Hypersonic or greater and only statements that would indicate mach 3 is a cap for the verse. So heavy false equivalence here.
Uhm actually this is incorrect. We did use a value for rubber bullet speed and the result was 1554.44 m/s, Mach 4.53. Did you actually read the calc?
Also did you read the manga? The bullet utilized for the bullet catching feat was a creation of Mai's cursed ability that allows her to create matter. She ran out of rubber bullets and this is apart of the reason Maki is surprised as she counted the 6 shots from her revolver.
We are also told Mai wanted to Kill Maki, and Maki notes that Mai's using dangerous rounds as it left a scorch mark on her hand.
The second portion is not an assumption. We see Maki not reacting the bullets inches away from her and then she catches the bullet. No matter how you slice it, the feat is hypersonic. Calc or not.
So yes real bullet speed is fine unless you have evidence against it.
Above the speed of sound means > mach 1. There is no cap.
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Sasuke literally tagged haku with a fire ball eventually and was also reacting to/ perceiving his movement between mirrors but he still doesn't scale.
Wouldn't contradict mach 3 as much as hypersonic does.
Hakari literally has the biggest CE buff in the series and depending on whether kashimo's CT is treated as real lightning or electricity, then like a previous comment said, would get hakari to Mach 6 which implies he would be above Naoya when scaling
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Mach 4,000. Kashimo's lightning meets more of the standards than not for lightning speed.
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If it was but a single contradictory statement , i would agree with the calcs.
But here, it's repeated many times that sonic to supersonic speeds are super impressive so i'll go with the author,despite hurting my scaling.
But here, it's repeated many times that sonic to supersonic speeds are super impressive so i'll go with the author,despite hurting my scaling.
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mach 6 is from like the lowest end accepted on the wiki for electricity in mid air
vsbattles.fandom.com
Speed of Electricity
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Then my knowledge about the calc is old I guess
Still and assumption. For all we know flower buds imbued with CE are enough to pierce through and kill someone. Taking the created bullet being a lead bullet and not rubber simply because she wanted to kill is still an assumption. Regarding scorch marks, this once again comes down to CE.
Only its initial firing speed is above speed of sound. It gets slower and yuuji needed enough distance, has to bait out the attack to either block or dodge it, a.k.a aim dodging
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Agreed FRA
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That's from a device with nowhere near the energy output of a lightning bolt or Kashimo.
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Considering that 15 finger Yuji scales to Yuta in physicals only (for instance he was incapable of blitzing Yuji and called him fast, and basically said that his plan to knock Yuji out and fake his death is tough when he didn't get an assist from Rika), this is not a good sign for top tier speed.
A casual Naoya moves FTE to 15 finger Yuji. Basic 1/24 math shows that he moved at subsonic speed considering the short distance, and per the narrative Naoya needs to accelerate to his top speed to crack supersonic.
Out of curiosity, if you are making Naoya's profile, what will you put his speed as?
Even though rubber bullets can be slower than that.
Also the calc is a high-end; we should simply use a low-end to get consistency. Let's use this analogy from HxH:
It is indicated that the cheetah dude dodged bullets close to his face, and in the next panel it is indicated that he does a speed feat against cops.
High-end: We can combine this as a single feat, where the blitz feat uses the timeframe taken from the distance of the bullets to the face.
Low-end: The bullet dodge timeframe does not apply to the blitz feat, and the blitz feat gets a different timeframe from human perception.
In Maki's situation, she already moved her head away before catching the bullet. This dodge gives her more time to catch it, therefore we can use a low-end timeframe instead.
So? The narrative is that Mai's trump card is a surprise extra bullet, nothing about its material.
Considering Mai is afraid to challenge authority (despite being rowdy to her peers), she would be incentivized to keep on not using regular bullets to avoid lethal or serious injury to opponents (besides Yuji, the only one she is permitted to kill or seriously injure).
She hated Maki; citation she wanted to kill Maki, or is willing to disobey instructions from superiors?
Sure, we can say that catching rubber rounds are dangerous and shouldn't be done. Friction and kinetic energy (reverse KE equation) doesn't tell us anything about material or speed per Wiki standards.
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Anyway, I'm only reading JJK for the story not to scale it so instead of agreeing I'll stay neutral.
This is one of the reasons why power scaling is considered stupid. Taking fan calcs above authors statements despite the statements being consistent. With how consistent Gege has been i think its safe to take statements above the calcs.
Them. dodging explosions and whatnot, It won't be the first time fiction goes against real life.
Edit: Stupid Autocorrect
This is one of the reasons why power scaling is considered stupid. Taking fan calcs above authors statements despite the statements being consistent. With how consistent Gege has been i think its safe to take statements above the calcs.
Them. dodging explosions and whatnot, It won't be the first time fiction goes against real life.
Edit: Stupid Autocorrect
Last edited:
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My argument above regarding kashimo and hakari was playing off authorial intent. Gege went as far as to get the scientific advisor for the Dr Stone manga to explain the properties of the lightning correctly (ch 188-189), and directly inserts narrative text boxes describing the lightning to be actual lightning and also bringing up the information regarding the charge of it.
This is no different than invoking the narrative text boxes regarding the Mach 3 statement that just came out.
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If I'm not mistaken I believe you also once made a calculation regarding that bullet feat. Do you have it by chance?Considering that 15 finger Yuji scales to Yuta in physicals only (for instance he was incapable of blitzing Yuji and called him fast, and basically said that his plan to knock Yuji out and fake his death is tough when he didn't get an assist from Rika), this is not a good sign for top tier speed.
A casual Naoya moves FTE to 15 finger Yuji. Basic 1/24 math shows that he moved at subsonic speed considering the short distance, and per the narrative Naoya needs to accelerate to his top speed to crack supersonic.
Out of curiosity, if you are making Naoya's profile, what will you put his speed as?
Even though rubber bullets can be slower than that.
Also the calc is a high-end; we should simply use a low-end to get consistency. Let's use this analogy from HxH:
It is indicated that the cheetah dude dodged bullets close to his face, and in the next panel it is indicated that he does a speed feat against cops.
High-end: We can combine this as a single feat, where the blitz feat uses the timeframe taken from the distance of the bullets to the face.
Low-end: The bullet dodge timeframe does not apply to the blitz feat, and the blitz feat gets a different timeframe from human perception.
In Maki's situation, she already moved her head away before catching the bullet. This dodge gives her more time to catch it, therefore we can use a low-end timeframe instead.
So? The narrative is that Mai's trump card is a surprise extra bullet, nothing about its material.
Considering Mai is afraid to challenge authority (despite being rowdy to her peers), she would be incentivized to keep on not using regular bullets to avoid lethal or serious injury to opponents (besides Yuji, the only one she is permitted to kill or seriously injure).
She hated Maki; citation she wanted to kill Maki, or is willing to disobey instructions from superiors?
Sure, we can say that catching rubber rounds are dangerous and shouldn't be done. Friction and kinetic energy (reverse KE equation) doesn't tell us anything about material or speed per Wiki standards.
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Except it's on his page and accepted as SoL lol.
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Yep here. Prefer method 2 over method 1.
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You missed the point. The outlier is Sasuke reacting to Haku not Haku being SoL
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In what universe would someone think Mai wanted to kill Maki just because she was angry at her.
Like let's not stretch things too far.
Also, it is true that the Kashimo-Hakari lightning feat introduces a big gap but I don't think anyone should worry about that since that feat only affects those two characters. If there comes a day where those 2 are compared to other characters in terms of speed, it can be discussed then.
But anyone who is below Naoya in speed should definitely be affected by recent author statements. Heck, even older scaling. It's not like Naoya being subsonic during his introduction is new, he was always subsonic and ramped up to supersonic when he had enough distance. Some just chose to ignore that to support their fan calcs.
Like let's not stretch things too far.
Also, it is true that the Kashimo-Hakari lightning feat introduces a big gap but I don't think anyone should worry about that since that feat only affects those two characters. If there comes a day where those 2 are compared to other characters in terms of speed, it can be discussed then.
But anyone who is below Naoya in speed should definitely be affected by recent author statements. Heck, even older scaling. It's not like Naoya being subsonic during his introduction is new, he was always subsonic and ramped up to supersonic when he had enough distance. Some just chose to ignore that to support their fan calcs.
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The thread that got the statement accepted reconciles this outlier.
- Haku seemingly 'teleporting' via. reflection is SoL
- Haku physically exiting a mirror to attack or jump into an other mirror is not SoL
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How Hikari scale to 3x faster than the lightning?
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I agree with the earlier points, the fact that characters who can move short distances in 1/24 seconds (something that is only Superhuman to Subsonic) are considered fast kinda just details the true levels for the verse’s speed
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SoL is not on beginning Genin Sasuke's page despite him reacting to Haku since it was found inconsistent with his later feats in OG Naruto.
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Im talking it being on Haku's page.
Haku does move at SoL, but Sasuke reacting to it is an outlier
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Ah forgive me
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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Who was it earlier that mentioned they have a Mach 6 calc
I would love to see itI would love to see it
I would love to see itI would love to see it
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By reacting to it point blank to his face, and moving his body to avoid a head shot
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There's no need to bring up something I'm aware of when that isn't the point. Haku was tagged by a fireball when moving between mirrors not when attacking Sasuke, sasuke could just Barely follow haku's movements between mirrors as well. Anyway this is derailing
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Change my vote from neutral to agree
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Jujutsu Kaisen: Hakari Dodges Lightning
vsbattles.fandom.com
For reference, the current hakari calc
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,851
- 7,740
Heavily advised you to start reading the official trans, the raw also says abilities and not that mistrans lol.
not responding to that other stuff all bad interpretation or just irrelevant.
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,851
- 7,740
Look in the jujutsu discussion page i linked it there. I used the same speed you did for when you calced a tg speed feat.
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Hakari Dodges Electricity
vsbattles.fandom.com
Found it
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Ain't he canonically slower than the lightning though?
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,851
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He is canonically able to dodge it and reacts to it another time
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Canonically able to get his arm torn off by it too...
Arkenis
They/Them- 16,851
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The attack canonically follows the target so he got tagged on his arm but the original specific target was his head. Read the manga IM URGING YOU
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Unfortunately idk how to make this post 'aesthetically pleasing' or 'easier to read', but...basically speed scaling tiers should be something like this:
1.) Hakari and Kashimo as the current god tiers of the verse speed wise with the lightning timing calc and both of them getting much faster over the course of the fight, with Hakari getting blitz levels of Kashimo at the end of 188. Lore/Narrative wise it also works as Kashimo is narratively the most dangerous opponent in the early parts of the Culling Games and Hakari has like 4 different statements in and out of the manga that says or implies he's above Yuta.
Full Power Sukuna and Gojo should get a likely rating for this as they 'should' scale above.
15 Finger Sukuna shouldn't scale to this though.
As for the Naobito statement, it wasn't fact, but 'Naobito is known as'. Its 'word on the street' kinda scaling.
But even then, Kashimo exists outside of the Naobito statement as he was dead when it was made. And Hakari should as well as he's
A.) Been suspended/out of the eye of the Jujutsu World for a year, so they have no idea his current strength
B.) Even assuming they know his current strength, they would have to somehow measure his speed compared to Naobito's. The 'good for nothing' High School Student with a weird technique that the higher ups hate vs a clan head leader who's ability displays his speed at all times + confuses people's perceptions if they don't understand the frame aspect.
C.) Blatantly has higher feats by narrative (straight up times lightning on panel and gets blitz levels faster, is considered to be stronger than Yuta and Tokyo School's secret weapon even with Yuta being known to all, with Naoya and Naobito scaling relative) and calcs (both the electricity speed calc and the lightning speed calc)
D.) Naobito and Naoya should be relative as the reason why Naobito was the fastest was 'strategic movement and timing', rather than having a faster version of Projection Sorcery or more raw speed. Their CT speed should be relative but Naobito moves and times things 'better' making him 'faster'.
E.) The statement was made before these characters were even introduced in the story. It was also made before Yuta returned from training in Africa, so even if you imply he was a character that was introduced, his current power would be unknown. And shonen power progression is a thing, because in the literal next arc, Naoya has feats above Naobito's, and people scale to or above Naoya
2./2.5) Next speed tier under would either be Cursed Naoya or Yuta/Ryu/Uro. I dunno who's universally considered faster, but they can't really upscale to Hakari since Hakari > Yuta, at least in terms of physical stats in context. They all should scale above human Naoya though, as human Naoya was basically cucking down to Base Yuta.
3.) Next tier would be Human Naoya, Naobito, Maki, Choso, Current Yuji and anyone who scales to them. Maki could react and has combat speed relative to Human Naoya, Choso is similar, and Yuji while injured and holding back scales to Base Yuta. Him getting 'blitzed' by Projection Sorcery isn't an anti feat as everyone that see's PS notes that it's not just speed, but 'something else' which we know is the fps aspect. So it's expected to blitz people who are off guard. Even Maki was getting blitzed by it at first even when she can react to that speed. She had to get the specific timing of the CT to counter.
That and a weaker 4 Finger Shibuya arc Yuji could 'anime speed vanish' blitz relative to the Supersonic Piercing Blood, so in terms of reactions he can see supersonic attacks, and in short burst movements he can 'blitz' them to a higher degree than Hakari dodged the lightning. That weaker 4 Finger Yuji could also keep up with FRSS Choso in terms of combat speed, and while Choso's reactions were lower due to not focusing on his eyes, his combat speed was still somewhat relative to Naoya. Current Yuji ate 15 total fingers, got amped in the Mahito fight in Shibuya, and got amped again compared to his post Mahito fight self as that's the last version of Yuji Choso had seen before his 'Demon God' statement in the Culling Games arc. He specifically mentioned that Yuji was still injured there too.
(keep in mind the fingers give Yuji more CE and base stats as current Culling Game Yuji is physically Grade 1 Sorcerer level with 0 CE in his body at all while, at full power with CE, Black Flash experience, and all that in the Goodwill though Shibuya arcs with 3 and 4 fingers, he was Grade 1 level scaling to Todo and Nanami)
Base Hakari might be able to scale to this speed as before Yuji stopped fighting back, while some blows were off guard, Hakari was able to tag and beat up an on guard Yuji for a while who was actively fighting back before being knocked out of the room. This was a fully healed Yuji compared to the injured one that 'fought' and avoided all of Base Yuta's blitz and one shot attempts. And in Yuta's first blitz attempt on Yuji, he was shown moving relative in speed to Naoya, side by side. Which is more supporting evidence that the PS's FPS is what makes things hard to react to rather than raw speed, as Yuta began speeding up after noting that Yuji was fast enough to dodge his first blitz attempt and then dodged his second.
4.) This would be where the high tier Grade 1s and some Special Grade Curses go. Shibuya Todo scales in speed to Mahito fight Yuji which is stronger than Choso fight Yuji who reacted to and 'blitzed' Piercing Blood. Yuji prior to the Choso fight was scaled to Nanami physically, so Nanami should scale. Mahito upscales above Todo and Shibuya Yuji in terms of speed due to him keeping up with both of them even with Boogie Woogie. Idk if Kamo is a high tier Grade 1, but he reacted to Supersonic Naoya without even having Flowing Red Scale activated.
And then from there we just go down. Now, for Maki and Cursed Naoya's speed concretely for rating/profile purposes, we should wait until the fight is done. We don't know if Maki failed to react or if she tried what she did before, reacted, and was just overpowered. That and if she reacts to Naoya's speed, depending on how it's done, she would be beyond mach 3. And Naoya might get faster as well.
Keep in mind, even if these characters scale to higher speeds than mach 3 in terms of reactions, short burst movements, or even combat with calcs, Projection Sorcery is unique in that those character's travel/movement speeds also scale. And if you wonder why movement speed would be considered impressive in a verse full of people that have that level of reactions and such, just look at Naoya vs Maki, where they have relative reaction and combat speeds, but Naoya had the superior movement speed and was able to bully her for it for most of the fight until she figured him out.
Before we start throwing out what's contradicting author intent and what's not, we should wait until this fight finishes as the conclusion should affect the speed scaling. If Naoya shows us more and Maki or Kamo end up with feats, then that would contradict the whole Mach 3 > downgrade.
Though High Hypersonic is sounding far fetched right about now. Supersonic to Hypersonic+ is sounding more consistent for anyone outside of tier 1
1.) Hakari and Kashimo as the current god tiers of the verse speed wise with the lightning timing calc and both of them getting much faster over the course of the fight, with Hakari getting blitz levels of Kashimo at the end of 188. Lore/Narrative wise it also works as Kashimo is narratively the most dangerous opponent in the early parts of the Culling Games and Hakari has like 4 different statements in and out of the manga that says or implies he's above Yuta.
Full Power Sukuna and Gojo should get a likely rating for this as they 'should' scale above.
15 Finger Sukuna shouldn't scale to this though.
As for the Naobito statement, it wasn't fact, but 'Naobito is known as'. Its 'word on the street' kinda scaling.
But even then, Kashimo exists outside of the Naobito statement as he was dead when it was made. And Hakari should as well as he's
A.) Been suspended/out of the eye of the Jujutsu World for a year, so they have no idea his current strength
B.) Even assuming they know his current strength, they would have to somehow measure his speed compared to Naobito's. The 'good for nothing' High School Student with a weird technique that the higher ups hate vs a clan head leader who's ability displays his speed at all times + confuses people's perceptions if they don't understand the frame aspect.
C.) Blatantly has higher feats by narrative (straight up times lightning on panel and gets blitz levels faster, is considered to be stronger than Yuta and Tokyo School's secret weapon even with Yuta being known to all, with Naoya and Naobito scaling relative) and calcs (both the electricity speed calc and the lightning speed calc)
D.) Naobito and Naoya should be relative as the reason why Naobito was the fastest was 'strategic movement and timing', rather than having a faster version of Projection Sorcery or more raw speed. Their CT speed should be relative but Naobito moves and times things 'better' making him 'faster'.
E.) The statement was made before these characters were even introduced in the story. It was also made before Yuta returned from training in Africa, so even if you imply he was a character that was introduced, his current power would be unknown. And shonen power progression is a thing, because in the literal next arc, Naoya has feats above Naobito's, and people scale to or above Naoya
2./2.5) Next speed tier under would either be Cursed Naoya or Yuta/Ryu/Uro. I dunno who's universally considered faster, but they can't really upscale to Hakari since Hakari > Yuta, at least in terms of physical stats in context. They all should scale above human Naoya though, as human Naoya was basically cucking down to Base Yuta.
3.) Next tier would be Human Naoya, Naobito, Maki, Choso, Current Yuji and anyone who scales to them. Maki could react and has combat speed relative to Human Naoya, Choso is similar, and Yuji while injured and holding back scales to Base Yuta. Him getting 'blitzed' by Projection Sorcery isn't an anti feat as everyone that see's PS notes that it's not just speed, but 'something else' which we know is the fps aspect. So it's expected to blitz people who are off guard. Even Maki was getting blitzed by it at first even when she can react to that speed. She had to get the specific timing of the CT to counter.
That and a weaker 4 Finger Shibuya arc Yuji could 'anime speed vanish' blitz relative to the Supersonic Piercing Blood, so in terms of reactions he can see supersonic attacks, and in short burst movements he can 'blitz' them to a higher degree than Hakari dodged the lightning. That weaker 4 Finger Yuji could also keep up with FRSS Choso in terms of combat speed, and while Choso's reactions were lower due to not focusing on his eyes, his combat speed was still somewhat relative to Naoya. Current Yuji ate 15 total fingers, got amped in the Mahito fight in Shibuya, and got amped again compared to his post Mahito fight self as that's the last version of Yuji Choso had seen before his 'Demon God' statement in the Culling Games arc. He specifically mentioned that Yuji was still injured there too.
(keep in mind the fingers give Yuji more CE and base stats as current Culling Game Yuji is physically Grade 1 Sorcerer level with 0 CE in his body at all while, at full power with CE, Black Flash experience, and all that in the Goodwill though Shibuya arcs with 3 and 4 fingers, he was Grade 1 level scaling to Todo and Nanami)
Base Hakari might be able to scale to this speed as before Yuji stopped fighting back, while some blows were off guard, Hakari was able to tag and beat up an on guard Yuji for a while who was actively fighting back before being knocked out of the room. This was a fully healed Yuji compared to the injured one that 'fought' and avoided all of Base Yuta's blitz and one shot attempts. And in Yuta's first blitz attempt on Yuji, he was shown moving relative in speed to Naoya, side by side. Which is more supporting evidence that the PS's FPS is what makes things hard to react to rather than raw speed, as Yuta began speeding up after noting that Yuji was fast enough to dodge his first blitz attempt and then dodged his second.
4.) This would be where the high tier Grade 1s and some Special Grade Curses go. Shibuya Todo scales in speed to Mahito fight Yuji which is stronger than Choso fight Yuji who reacted to and 'blitzed' Piercing Blood. Yuji prior to the Choso fight was scaled to Nanami physically, so Nanami should scale. Mahito upscales above Todo and Shibuya Yuji in terms of speed due to him keeping up with both of them even with Boogie Woogie. Idk if Kamo is a high tier Grade 1, but he reacted to Supersonic Naoya without even having Flowing Red Scale activated.
And then from there we just go down. Now, for Maki and Cursed Naoya's speed concretely for rating/profile purposes, we should wait until the fight is done. We don't know if Maki failed to react or if she tried what she did before, reacted, and was just overpowered. That and if she reacts to Naoya's speed, depending on how it's done, she would be beyond mach 3. And Naoya might get faster as well.
Keep in mind, even if these characters scale to higher speeds than mach 3 in terms of reactions, short burst movements, or even combat with calcs, Projection Sorcery is unique in that those character's travel/movement speeds also scale. And if you wonder why movement speed would be considered impressive in a verse full of people that have that level of reactions and such, just look at Naoya vs Maki, where they have relative reaction and combat speeds, but Naoya had the superior movement speed and was able to bully her for it for most of the fight until she figured him out.
Before we start throwing out what's contradicting author intent and what's not, we should wait until this fight finishes as the conclusion should affect the speed scaling. If Naoya shows us more and Maki or Kamo end up with feats, then that would contradict the whole Mach 3 > downgrade.
Though High Hypersonic is sounding far fetched right about now. Supersonic to Hypersonic+ is sounding more consistent for anyone outside of tier 1
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this is a excellent breakdown
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