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JoJo's Bizarre Adventures: Small Town/High MCB Upgrade (Parts 1 to 6)

Austrian-Man-Meat

Austrian-Man-Meat

VS Battles
Retired
2,072
240
I have recently made a calc which seems to of gathered general acceptance around here and the OBD Result was 962 tons of tnt.

Part 1

Jonathan (Was able to harm Dio, who in his inferior body managed to withstand a punch from Star Platinum)

Zepelli and the rest of the cast remain as 9A, they don't compare to a Hamon Pass Jonathan.

Dio Brando ( His inferior vampire body in Part 3 managed to withstand punches from Star Platinum, Should be equal to Jonathan in terms of AP)

Part 2

All the pillar men (Vastly superior to vampires)

Joseph Joestar (Managed to beat the Pillar Men)

Ceaser Zepelli (Was very close to beating Wamuu, and according to him could of also given Kars a difficult fight)

Part 3

Jotaro Kujo (Reasons already stated)

Joseph Joestar (Hamon is still effective, even against DIO)

Polnareff (Managed to skewer DIO's head, managed to withstand blows from Star Platinum in the Anubis fight)

'Avdol'? (Managed to keep pace with a newbie Jotaro. Might scale from Polnareff otherwise)

Other characters I may forget.

Part 4

Josuke Higashikata (Managed to break Star Platinum's guard and was only beaten through the use of time stop)

Yoshikage Kira (Was able to give Crazy Diamond a hard time, Sheer heart attack managed to withstand a flurry of SP's punches)

Koichi (Was able to keep Killer Queen in place with Act 3)

Part 5

Diavolo (Power is ranked as "A" is regarded as a powerful stand)

Not sure apart from him tbh, I only read the ending and prologue of Part 5 (chapters missing inbetween)

Part 6

Memory of this part has run thin to be honest, not completely sure.
 
They might not have read the source material. But I have two questions to ask: can you prove that a stand, which is a representation of your soul, has weight, and can you prove that he sucked in the entire area of fog instead of simply dispelling it by absorbing the stand?
 
Derpurple said:
Tivanenk said:
Where? What proof is there that it has the weight of real fog?
Click to expand...
Well I mean where's any real proof against it not being a fog?
Click to expand...
The fact that a stand is a soul which is completely weightless. Besides, the stand didn't just create "the fog" it also created a town, so it was more of an illusion. And it seems that he sucked in the stand only and not the fog in the vicinity.
 
The proof that it is fog alone? Stands not having weight would make no sense at all, if that was the case Dio would be unable to harm anyone with The World.

Plus it is generally accepted that what Stand users create have similar properties to the irl counterparts. It's why Polnareff's FTL sun calculation was even able to be accepted. So I don't see how fog is somehow weightless.

Justice 1
This was the scope of what Star Platinum inhaled.
 
Nope, he sucked in her stand, not the fog blanketing a town. Her illusion or whatever was dispelled upon her stand being defeated. I don't approve of this calc for that reason.
 
Look at the picture I had posted above. I believe the illusion was only dispelled once the stand user was unable to provide anymore fog towards the illusion or was ko'd.

You can clearly see the head of the stand above being shoved right into Jotaro's mouth, and given how big it is and how huge it's range is I doubt that he only absorbed the stand within a limited range.

More Fog
Remember, Enya was left with no fog whatsoever to provide her body with anything, she could of just used the remaining fog to supply her if he had not inhaled the whole thing.
 
I don't see what is implying that he had to suck up all of the fog nor do I see that implication in the panel itself. It looks like he is also sucking up the remains of the main stand body proper. A wiki is not a better source than the manga it is based on and I have no way of knowing what types of speculation are on it.

Furthermore, when stands in Jojo are harmed, so are their wielders. If he had sucked up the main body, Enya choking isn't really surprising.
 
" Star Platinum is inhaling the fog, He's completely sucking it all in!" There is your in panel proof of SP sucking in all of the fog. Note of how it says all it only adds to Jotaro sucking in all fog present in the town.

The fog itself is the Justice stand and the scope of it spans over a city, so if Jotaro was to only suck in the part within that room there is still much more of the stand remaining, which Enya would be able to utilise how see she fits. Jotaro had to of completely sucked in all of the fog to make Enya choke and be able to disable her to use it any further.

Also, this is the stand body
Justice 1
 
He's sucking the shown subbody of the stand in. That's taken out of context.

Also, Enya was already choking when had just the subbody ~70% in his mouth.
 
Nothing was taken out of context at all. That is what the manga says, nothing about sucking it's subbody is mentioned at all. It just says he is inhaling the fog and is sucking it all in.

The image I have shown is the size of the stand. If Jotaro had only absorbed the part within mansion there is still much more fog present. Which would still be able to be utilised.

Also you mind if we discussed this on chat? I feel we would come to a conclusion much faster than talking here.
 
Alright, during the manga pay close attention towards the sky before SP inhales the fog. We can never see the clouds as shown here,here and here. The only time wesee the clouds is when Star Platinum has finished inhaling the air. Now you may think to yourselves here " The fog is only gone because Enya cant breathe anymore" I can't agree to that for this reason. Stands are still able to manifest themselves even if the user is in critical conditon, examples include Kakyoin,Guy on the train in pt 5 and various others.

The only reason why the clouds were visible is because SP had inhaled Justice therefore preventing Enya from using it anymore. Infact Enya was still conciouss afterwards in this sca. And the illusions faded away only after Enya truly lost conciousness.

This proves that SP had indeed inhaled a town full of fog as there was indeed fog outside of the building which SP had inhaled. Not a result of Enya making it dissapear.
 
No it doesn't. SP just sucked up Enya's stand and knocked her out, dispersing the illusion of the town and fog.
 
Jotaro did suck up the stand, which was across the whole town as shown here and in the images I linked and shown earlier. The fog being gone while Enya was still concious proves that the blanket of fog was sucked up by Jotaro rather than it dispersed due to Enya being ko'd.

Keep in mind the manga itself says "Jotaro completely inhales all the fog" nothing is said about it being a subbody or anything. And the next scan showing clear clouds does indeed prove so.
 
Tivanenk said:
The stand itself was only the size of Jotaro's size, as shown on panel.
Click to expand...
However Jotaro sucked in the whole town of fog, Lets say Jotaro did suck in the stand exclusivley and nothing else. This is how the events would play out.

After Jotaro inhales the stand (exclusivley without the town) Enya would look like this pass out and then the clouds would be visible again as shown here

However the clouds being normal again is being shown before Enya passes out. This proves that Jotaro had managed to inhale all of the fog in the vicinity before Enya could lose the influence of her stand. Which just so hapenned to be across the town.
 
No, that's just speculation about how her abilities work. Speculating about stands is pretty much a no-go.

Also, you point out that the fog didn't disappear until Jotaro was finished inhaling, however, that is clearly not the case. Enya in the bottom right of this sca - which happens before Star Platinum has fully inhaled even the human shaped portion of her stand - is depicted with a clear background, indicating her fog is already disappearing. If we are to believe that he sucked in the entire amount of fog, we would need to see that human shaped portion of her stand already well inside Star Platinum's "lungs" by this point. She also began choking right when Star Platinum began inhaling her fog - that is, when he began swallowing merely the human shaped portion of it. It's very clear that she is linked to that human shaped portion, like other stand users are.
 
There is no speculation. It's clearly shown in this scan here that the fog reaches out across the tow, also it was able to block out clouds in multiple scans being shown.

Also the moment you show does not confirm anything. During the scan Star Platinum is said to be Sucking it all i. Now if the very next scan did indeed show there to be fog from the outside I would believe what you're saying. However this is not the case, it is shown that directly afterwards that the clouds are indeed visible and because Enya was still concious during this we know that Star Platinum had to sucked in the fog before Enya could remove it via being knocked out.

Also you could say that he had already inhaled most of the fog from within the town at this point and then finished it off here . Choking and losing air entirely are different, she was still able to breath in that scan albeit very badly, it was only when the fog was completely gone that she was completely unable to breath

By the time she lost all ability to breathe was the exact moment that Star Platinum had inhaled all fog in the vicinity. However due to her being concious we know that her dissapting the fog was not what had hapenned.
 
You're not responding to anything I said, except by repeating some arguments I already responded to.

For example - I already said the images don't match what the text is saying, very clearly. That didn't have a response and you just repeated it.

I've already told you it is unrealistic for Star Platinum to have even touched the fog outside without absorbing the comparatively tiny amount that made up the human shaped portion. Additionally, since you are making the positive claim, the inverse is in fact true; you need to show me that the fog outside was affected by Star Platinum directly, which the evidence for simply isn't there. Enya was knocked out and that is all we need to show that the fog could have realistically disappeared without being sucked in.

Additionally, the town - which was also a part of Enya's illusion - did not disappear until she was knocked out as well. It's very clear that her conscious state is linked to her powers.

Unless you can actually show me Star Platinum affecting the fog on a town level rather than a mere room level (and probably not even that, since again, he didn't take in the human shaped portion until well into Enya choking) then there is no reason to believe this occurred.
 
Star Platinum already has shown to affect the fog on a town level...

Alright, how do the images not match what the text is saying? Star Platinum is in the process of sucking in all the fog nothing is said about it just sucking the stand body. He has only completely finished sucking it all in when Enya was unable to breath altogether. Keep in mind she was still able to breath albeit slightly when the fog was being inhaled to begin with.

The fog outside was affected because the clouds were visible after he had sucked it all in, and I already said Enya was not knocked out, infact she even shared her embaressment to the party by saying "How Shameful" when the clouds were visible. Being in critical condtion is not an excuse either. Because many stand users where able to use theirs being on the brink of death, proving the fog had all been inhaled by SP rather than it disapearing due to loss of concection with the user.

Her illusion disappeared far after the fog inhaling feat. I am not including the town at all only the fog which blanketed it due to that being what SP had inhaled.
 
The fact that the stand body - which occupies a minimal amount of volume compared to an entire town - is not fully inside his mouth after Enya has already collapsed and the panel was clear?

Look at the order of the panels again, right to left.

There is no direct indication that the fog in the entire town - and not the room - disappearing was SP and not just Enya getting messed up because her stand was inside of Jotaro's. Even from the beginning, when he touched less than 0.01% of the fog that Enya controlled (which was the human shaped fog), she was already in serious pain. There's very clearly a connection there.

But again, the most damning thing is the fact that SP did not fully take in the human shaped one before the clear room is shown. That means he can't have even begun to have touched the fog in the entire town. But even if that was the case, what you need is positive evidence for the fog from the entire town - not the room - going in. It's not there.
 
In my opinion, and this isn't even solely related to the calc, but I believe it's odd to assume that Justice's presence simply took up one room. Justice is shown to be the entirety of the fog. It does not really seem to create fog so much as its body simply covers the entire town. The fog, like Justice's "main body" (whatever that is), is an extension of Enya's soul and part of the Stand.

Had Star Platinum only inhaled a tiny part of the town-sized Justice, would this have rendered Enya completely incapable of breathing? I find that doubtful, as she simply could have used more of the fog that was, again, a part of herself.

If one wants to assert that sucking up Justice's...face...thing alone would completely remove the presence of the Stand, I would like to ask...has anything like this ever happened to Justice or even a remotely similar stand? If so, then I can see the reasons for the complaint. If not, I do not find the assertion that sucking up a small part of Justice caused the whole stand to vanish to be trustworthy. If Justice's skeletal appearance is some sort of off switch, this needs evidence.

Because right now, I can honestly not see why inhaling a room sized portion of a town sized amorphous fog entity would cause the rest of the being to simply vanish.
 
Well, there's no stand that I can think of close to Justice in size and effect.

But the anime makes it pretty clear what is being sucked in is just the human like body of justice. The hag starts choking as soon as that body is absorbed and is basically fainted even when the entire room is full of her fog. If the anime portrays it that way and the manga suggests it, I don't find any basis for this to be true.
 
To my knowledge, we strictly use manga panels and scenes for JJBA. If we didn't, we probably wouldn't even be discussing this topic, because Part 1 Dio would already be small city+ and scale to almost everyone.
 
Even if that's the case, the fact that the anime follows closely what I am implying the manga does is pretty much proof that this is not right.

But outside of that, there is no panel in the manga depicting the fog in the town being sucked in, so, by burden of evidence, this should be dropped.
 
It does not matter what the anime implies, though. To my understanding, we cannot use anything from it, and if we did, as I said before, everyone would already be Small City+ and this thread would be pointless.

Also, the dialogue between the manga and anime seems to be different. In the anime, all it says is Star Platinum is sucking in Justice's face. In the manga, it simply says Star Platinum is sucking up all the fog. There also seem to be a few shots of the fog outside lingering a minute or so after the fight is done, which is different from the manga in which it seemed to disappear instantly. That is a pretty big difference, in this case.

I'm also not sure that's the correct use of burden of proof, in this case. If you are asking as to why I believe Star Platinum sucked up all the fog, it's because

1. the dialogue in the manga suggesting it.

2. Justice's body being the fog that covers the fake town, and it suddenly disappearing after a small portion was absorbed would not make sense.

If you assert that Star Platinum only sucked up a room-sized portion of Justice's "face" and this caused the whole stand to disappear, you should provide proof for this, as well. And as I've already said, I believe the anime is completely off the table.
 
It is the correct burden of proof. If you are asserting something - making a positive claim - the burden is on you. The assertion here is that the town's fog was sucked up and I don't think that was met. I don't have to prove the opposite really (which is what I think you are suggesting), but just disprove what was said.

Since you listed two circumstancial things that aren't really direct evidence of the occurence, I will at least list my responses to those individual points:

1) The dialogue does not match up with what is happening in the scene. Furthermore, the statement is not "he is sucking all of the fog in the town up!" merely "he is sucking all of the fog up"

2. It would because stand bodies affect the user and getting your stand body compacted into a lung would probably choke you out or do nasty things. That's based off other stands in the series. Also, again, by the time that SP has finished taking in the miniscule, miniscule amount of fog that makes up the apparent body, the sky is already clear around Enya (bottom right panel). There's also the fact that Enya starts choking when less than 0.0001% of the proposed volume of fog is in SP's mouth. That doesn't line up with anything about Enya being fine without the fog being sucked in. It instead lines up with the apparition being taken in.

Again, I don't need to prove the theory that only the room was affected. However, if we are talking about what was shown, then it is clearly this case. There is no direct visual proof for the stand sucking it in i.e. no panels of wind in the entire town, no panels of his breath reaching outside the entire room, no panels of really SP doing anything directly to anything but that apparition body.
 
Burden of proof does not automatically fall upon the positive claim. It falls upon the claimant in general. I was stating that you should also provide evidence behind your claims, which you made earlier.

I did not say what I listed was direct 100% proof? I even stated it was reasoning as to why I believed the entirety of the town's fog to have been sucked up, not something that proves you completely wrong.

1. Yes, it says he's sucking up all the fog. Justice is a stand made entirely out of fog, and in this scene, is blanketing an entire town. To me, this implies something much more along the lines of "all fog being sucked up" than "a portion of the Stand's body in the room being sucked up".

2. Yes, stand bodies being hurt affects the user, and having your whole body compressed would be painful. This is part of the reason I'm arguing the entirety of Justice's form was likely sucked up. Having a finger put in a vice grip is painful, but it wouldn't stop you from taking air into your lungs properly like having your entire body in a vice would. Also, I'm not fully understanding where this assumption that only a small part of Justice was sucked in. Is it due to the face and the hands in the panels? Because in the anime, which you said supported your version of events, numerous faces were sucked in. Couldn't this have simply been the last of them? There's also the fact that the room they're in doesn't appear to be sealed, so I don't understand how Star Platinum would suck up the fog in the room without the room refilling with fog.

You seem to be fixated on this apparition thing, but again, it's not like this "apparition" is anything but a part of Justice's larger form. Also, the only panels in the scene show Star Platinum sucking Justice in and Enya choking. This does not mean only a tiny chunk of Justice seen in the immediate panel is what was sucked in.
 
"Burden of proof does not automatically fall upon the positive claim." -> Nope, it does. Not even arguable.

It's not direct because again, you aren't showing SP affecting the town's fog.

1. Implications don't make the statement better than it is.

2. We have already seen that just a portion of her stand being sucked up is painful. There is no reason to believe the entire town was sucked up if you are going to argue that. There is no assumption that only a small part of Justice was sucked up; it is literally the only thing shown in the panel. There aren't multiple faces being sucked up in the anime, that is a relic of the animation and if you go frame by frame (Stardust Crusaders, Episode 15, Justice Part 2), you can see that there is just a single face fluctuating around the area of his mouth. Also, again, I'm not forwarding any sort of claim about the room, merely about why OP's positive claim has not met the burden of proof it needs.

True that Justice's larger form is way bigger than the apparition, but the apparation is the only thing that goes in SP's mouth. Again, there is no direct evidence of the town entirely being affected. You are, again, saying that I need to prove the opposite, when that is not true at all. If this is your claim, prove it or don't.
 
Nope, it does. Not even arguable.

I think a great many people would argue that, actually. Of course, I suppose it depends on how loosely you define "positive claim".

1. It kind of does, though. My point was that the statement itself doesn't read like a single part of Justice is being sucked up. On the other hand, the anime line very much reads like that, which is why I pointed out how different they are.

2. Again, I specifically noted that even having a small portion sucked up would be painful. My comment was that presumably a significantly larger portion would need to be sucked up to actually make it so that Enya is completely unable to breathe. Ah, thank you for pointing out that face thing. I didn't notice that. Anyway, it's not solely the claim about the room. It's any claim which a portion of either side of the argument hinges on, such as the stand being sucked up immediately dispelling the fog along with the illusions, etc. It's not a clear cut scenario, which is obviously why we're trying to figure out the most accurate way to go about it.

The apparition goes into Star Platinum's mouth, but this does not mean it's the only thing that goes in, as the dialogue seems to suggest otherwise, mentioning that Star Platinum was inhaling all the fog, and as I said earlier, there doesn't seem to be anything sealing the room off from the rest of the town (in the manga, at least). I also never said you needed to prove the opposite. I'm saying evidence should be provided for any major claim. See above.
 
Not really. It's a standard of argumentation. Otherwise, it just degenerates into "you can't prove x" competitions.

1. I don't care much about the anime line in particular, what I care about is the lack of reference to the town. If it isn't there it's just an implication at best.

2. She was already choking hard even befeore he full apparition was taken in. The next panel that occurred after SP took in the apparition by itself showed her collapsed. It's pretty clear that its the apparition, not the town. As for dispelling the fog, I'm not exactly forwarding that, per se. There are a variety of reasons it could have acted that way, but I certainly don't think sucking up the entire town is the most evidenced or even the best by Occam's razor. It seems a lot better to go by what we see, which is what we can actually confirm.

As for sucking in merely the apparition, the panels I referenced above regarding the order of events and whether the apparition was fully in the mouth or not are pretty much the evidence I have to the contrary for that.
 
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