Massive Lifting Strength Revision for JJBA High Tiers

[Baken384]

Lifting Strength for the stronger characters (Jotaro's Star Platinum and DIO's The World) will be upgraded to Class G through two calculations.
Star Platinum briefly holding up High Priestess' Bite: Around 55 Million Tons (Class G)

JoJo - High Priestess Bite

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Dark Blue Moon through its physical might, spins its arms around to form a violent whirlpool: Around 6 Million Tons (Class G)

JoJo - Dark Blue Moon

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The Class G Rating for the Physical God Tiers such as Star Platinum should be consistent as throughout the entirety of Jotaro's adventure in Stardust Crusaders, Star Platinum has never been shown to struggle when it comes to Lifting Strength, barring the time Star Platinum held up High Priestess' bite. (The Class G Feat, in fact this is the only time he was shown to be struggling when it comes to lifting.)
The Class G rating also has a Class M supporting feat to help its case.
By merely inhaling, an even earlier (thus weaker), incarnation of Plat could move and inhale roughly 25,000 tons of hyper-dense fog directly compared to clouds, casually. A potential low-end at that, as the fog was said to have extended over not just the town, but even some of the mountain.

JoJo Part 3 - Star Platinum And Fog

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When it comes to scaling for Class G, the clear and cut that will scale would be Part 3 Star Platinum, The World (Treated to be Star Platinum's equal, arguably even superior), High Priestess (Scales to its own feat), and Dark Blue Moon (Will be scaling to its own feat)
But the other stands such as Gold Experience Requiem, King Crimson. Part 4 Star Platinum, Angry Crazy Diamond, etc being able to scale should be discussed below.

rldr; peeps like star plat and the world go from class k possibly class m to class g

Votings:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Baken384]

Super Duper thanks to Chariot190 and M3X for making this possible.
Also 8-B Star Platinum when?

 

[Unknownnah]

Jotaro can finally stop Outer Haven…

 

[Chariot190]

I'll allow it, for as long as Toriko gets away with it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

First calc unfortunately is invalid as it is

 

[Baken384]

First calc unfortunately is invalid as it is

BALLS

 

[M3X_2.0]

BALLS

 

[HollowVanity]

First calc unfortunately is invalid as it is

reasons ?

 

[M3X_2.0]

reasons ?

Star Platinum should be scaling to the whole jaw’s force, because he stopped the full jaw from closing and that that few cm2.

 

[HollowVanity]

Star Platinum should be scaling to the whole jaw’s force, because he stopped the full jaw from closing and that that few cm2.

Knew that, was just testing you ong

 

[M3X_2.0]

Knew that, was just testing you ong

Balls ?!?!?!?!

 

[HollowVanity]

Balls ?!?!?!?!

Balls

 

[SeijiSetto]

DBM's feat wouldn't be 6 million tons, the number you were looking at is the moment of inertia which is not a measure of mass.
the mass of water in that feat is just shy of 20,000 tons, Class M.

 

[Agnaa]

That first calc is even more unusable than that. Our Large Size Calculations page doesn't include anything about being able to use square-cube for lifting strength. I think letting that happen would be very weird considering our other standards, where we have to see them move with proportionally ordinary speeds for square-cube to be used for speed, and how we never just use square-cube to multiply up AP.

Making things worse, muscle strength is proportional to cross-sectional area. Even if we do allow scaling it up, doing so to the power of 3 is blatantly incorrect.

 

[KLOL506]

I thought we stopped doing the whole square-cube thing for LS and "to the power of 5" for AP

 

[Dalesean027]

Huh had no knowledge of any of this, how long ago was that?

 

[SeijiSetto]

Huh had no knowledge of any of this, how long ago was that?

afaik (admittedly not very far) it was looooong before i joined, which was back in february

 

[Dalesean027]

afaik (admittedly not very far) it was looooong before i joined, which was back in february

Well I joined 2021 granted I didn't immediately start doing calcs but still this is the first I'm hearing of this especially since it isn't listed anywhere to not do this.

 

[Chariot190]

I thought we stopped doing the whole square-cube thing for LS and "to the power of 5" for AP

That first calc is even more unusable than that. Our Large Size Calculations page doesn't include anything about being able to use square-cube for lifting strength. I think letting that happen would be very weird considering our other standards, where we have to see them move with proportionally ordinary speeds for square-cube to be used for speed, and how we never just use square-cube to multiply up AP.

Making things worse, muscle strength is proportional to cross-sectional area. Even if we do allow scaling it up, doing so to the power of 3 is blatantly incorrect.

Go have fun with Toriko and Naruto then, I actively checked with CGM's and those verses first. Toriko's whole's first chunk is based off cubing up a mammoth's bite for example, and Sage Mode does the same with something else as well i forget tho, a rhino bite?

 

[KLOL506]

Go have fun with Toriko and Naruto then, I actively checked with CGM's and those verses first. Toriko's whole's first chunk is based off cubing up a mammoth's bite for example, and Sage Mode does the same with something else as well i forget tho, a rhino bite?

They should probably be revised then as well.

 

[Chariot190]

Well, I am going to have to ask you to go overturn those first because as it stands, we do in fact accept and implement these types of calcs. Something I made damn sure was the case before even attempting to fix it.

 

[KLOL506]

Can you give me the links to those calcs then? I will ask someone to change that real soon. Like @DontTalkDT or @Executor_N0.

 

[Chariot190]

Don't know Naruto one, M3X just went on about it a lot, just know it exists. Regal Mammoth for Toriko.

Toriko: Regal Mammoth KE

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[Agnaa]

Well, I am going to have to ask you to go overturn those first because as it stands, we do in fact accept and implement these types of calcs. Something I made damn sure was the case before even attempting to fix it.

And similarly, I'd have to ask you to put this thread on hold while we go through the process of overturning them.

 

[Chariot190]

And similarly, I'd have to ask you to put this thread on hold while we go through the process of overturning them.

Let me ask this directly first then.
Is this an actual rule that absolutely 100% currently exists that we absolutely cannot calc things like that. Or is this just a personal opinion in that we shouldn't?

 

[Agnaa]

Let me ask this directly first then.
Is this an actual rule that absolutely 100% currently exists that we absolutely cannot calc things like that. Or is this just a personal opinion in that we shouldn't?

If by "actual rule" you mean "written" then no. But there's also no "actual rule" that you can't assume that animal bites are universal for zero reason. We don't write down every single thing that cannot be done in a calculation.

But I am 98% certain that the way the rest of our standards on Large Size Calculations, particularly how it doesn't let us scale up AP, and doesn't let us assume proportional speeds without that being shown, that it wouldn't let us scale up LS (which involves assuming proportional crushing speeds) without that being shown.

And I am 99% certain that using the square-cube formula, with a 3 in the exponent, is physically incorrect.

 

[M3X_2.0]

In fact, we accept these kind of feats and despite knowing about Large Size revisions, it was never a thing for lifting strength.

This matter has to be discussed on a different thread.

 

[Chariot190]

If by "actual rule" you mean "written" then no.

By actual rule I mean actual rule. Like "You can not do this to get this" written, or at least accepted somewhere, even if just a thread with general consensus.

But there's also no "actual rule" that you can't assume that animal bites are universal for zero reason.

Perhaps, yet we do that anyway. Hell this ain't even my calc, I just stole M3X's old calc, tweaked it to follow the accepted ones and called it a day, it's been a meme for a year.

We don't write down every single thing that cannot be done in a calculation.

Well, you should.

But I am 98% certain that the way the rest of our standards on Large Size Calculations, particularly how it doesn't let us scale up AP, and doesn't let us assume proportional speeds without that being shown, that it wouldn't let us scale up LS (which involve assuming proportional crushing speeds) without that being shown.

So as above, just presuming we can't based on unrelated rules? Speed though I don't think actually applies in the cases of bite force. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the human bite tested after the jaw makes contact with the stress testing device? As in, more akin to pushing and muscle pulling, then speed and velocity playing any factor. Somewhat like a hydraulic press.

And I am 99% certain that using the square-cube formula, with a 3 in the exponent, is physically incorrect.

Tbh I'll give you that, but that's what the accepted formula's used so shrug, I'm just following the precedence.

As it stands, I'm not sure this is an actual rule but rather your personal preference. Which while fair, doesn't affect anything until such a rule is put in place as the current wiki accepts and implements such things, doubly so as the conclusion might be that we can do that depending on what other CGM decide or figure out. You don't know till it's said and done. I have no problem waiting, but I'm not OP here, stopping everything based on 'maybe' and ignoring current standards, well nothing would ever get done if we worked like that.

If you ultimately throw out this formula and method to gain force, that's fine, not like there isn't five backups albeit lower, or we could go about calcing it a different way which I'm sure there is given we've been blessed with this.

 

[KLOL506]

At this point I'd just suggest making another thread regarding Large Size calculations as a whole and tagging DontTalkDT and other calc members (Minus me, I don't care much) to take a look at it, instead of derailing here.

 

[Baken384]

My goat Jotaro won't be stopped can't stop the bizarre adventure

 

[Agnaa]

So as above, just presuming we can't based on unrelated rules? Speed though I don't think actually applies in the cases of bite force. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the human bite tested after the jaw makes contact with the stress testing device? As in, more akin to pushing and muscle pulling, then speed and velocity playing any factor. Somewhat like a hydraulic press.

Acceleration matters for all of those things; they involve forces.

As it stands, I'm not sure this is an actual rule but rather your personal preference. Which while fair, doesn't affect anything until such a rule is put in place as the current wiki accepts and implements such things, doubly so as the conclusion might be that we can do that depending on what other CGM decide or figure out. You don't know till it's said and done. I have no problem waiting, but I'm not OP here, stopping everything based on 'maybe' and ignoring current standards, well nothing would ever get done if we worked like that.

Usually these things go by CGM consensus, only leading to threads if there is none. And so far, I haven't seen any CGMs hear these arguments and give their reasons for why they still think it's acceptable.

If we let threads pass when CGMs reject calcs, despite no CGMs seeing the reasoning and still thinking the calcs are okay, we'd let a lotta shit slide that shouldn't.

All of which is to say, I've made a thread to abstract the topic due to how many verses it'd effect, but I don't think that calc should be applied through until that thread resolves.

 

[Chariot190]

Acceleration matters for all of those things; they involve forces.

This feels like dodging the issue

Usually these things go by CGM consensus, only leading to threads if there is none. And so far, I haven't seen any CGMs hear these arguments and give their reasons for why they still think it's acceptable.

Exactly. And CGM's have been accepting feats like this for ages, it's you who needs to make a new consensus and overturn what we do. Just because you, personally haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as evidenced by the handful of accepted and implemented calcs, by CGM's (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be accepted) where this is utilized.

If we let threads pass when CGMs reject calcs, despite no CGMs seeing the reasoning and still thinking the calcs are okay, we'd let a lotta shit slide that shouldn't.

What? This isn't a matter of you rejecting a calc, it's a matter of you rejecting a calc because you "think" we don't do that.
In which there's no rule on it, and on the contrary, something we do accept.
As it stands, the formula is accepted, used, and implemented, you must change that as a whole before you can reject it on those grounds.

All of which is to say, I've made a thread to abstract the topic due to how many verses it'd effect, but I don't think that calc should be applied through until that thread resolves.

Other way around, currently, there's nothing wrong with the calc based on our, as of now, accepted practices and implemented calculations except the area aspect of it, but that'd just make it higher. You'd need to deal with that too btw because the Naruto formula calculates it via area^2, even if it's wrong.

But good, hopefully, the pros and cons can be evaluated fairly in order to conclude if such a thing is viably usable.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Exactly. And CGM's have been accepting feats like this for ages, it's you who needs to make a new consensus and overturn what we do. Just because you, personally haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, as evidenced by the handful of accepted and implemented calcs, by CGM's (obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be accepted) where this is utilized.

tbh a cgm accepting a calc doesn't mean it's correct
god knows i've seen multiple look over a calc that was completely fucked in terms of numerics and go "looks good" despite the fact it clearly WASN'T, so i don't think leveraging the point of "CGMs have been accepting it so it must be right" means anything.

 

[Chariot190]

It does because that's the current standards. The method itself was even proposed by CGM's. This would be like saying "explosions calcs wrong so rejected", sure, maybe they are, but we use them, so if they're wrong make a thread to oppose explosion feats.
a lot of our formulas are totally ****** as it is, we just ignore it for simplicity so being hyper realistic evidently isnt the goal, more like we just want an approximation.

I'm not even arguing for the feat, I'm just saying standards and precedence exist, so change that first.

 

[SeijiSetto]

It does because that's the current standards. The method itself was even proposed by CGM's. This would be like saying "explosions calcs wrong so rejected", sure, maybe they are, but we use them, so if they're wrong make a thread to oppose explosion feats.
a lot of our formulas are totally ***** as it is, we just ignore it for simplicity so being hyper realistic evidently isnt the goal, more like we just want an approximation.

no, what i'm saying is that it's more akin to a calc beginning with the assumption that 1 + 1 = 3 and it being used because "a CGM accepted it/suggested the method so it must be correct" which is just wrong, nobody is immune to fault. obviously they're supposed to spot things like that (it's basically their purpose here) but something can be accepted and still wrong.

this thread'll be on hold anyway since agnaa's actually made a thread addressing your concern over the standards of upscaling LS, so ain't nothin to do but wait until that one comes to a conclusion.

 

[M3X_2.0]

no, what i'm saying is that it's more akin to a calc beginning with the assumption that 1 + 1 = 3 and it being used because "a CGM accepted it/suggested the method so it must be correct" which is just wrong

It’s kinda easy to say that with such example, but think about an explosion calculation. If we somehow figure that our formulas don’t work, the calcs will still be used because there is no way we can discuss, reach a conclusion and change hundreds of profiles with the explosion calcs in less than a few weeks.

And that’s assuming there’s a clear mistake on the formula, which isn’t the case here. So, unless we have reached a conclusion of our new standards on that, the obvious path to follow is just using what the standards current tell you unless new ones are put in place.

 

[Chariot190]

no, what i'm saying is that it's more akin to a calc beginning with the assumption that 1 + 1 = 3 and it being used because "a CGM accepted it/suggested the method so it must be correct" which is just wrong, nobody is immune to fault. obviously they're supposed to spot things like that (it's basically their purpose here) but something can be accepted and still wrong.

And I'm saying that isn't the case, we accept it, we use this formula, and it's been implemented for ages? You disagree, cool. This is not the same as some random math **** up. You're acting like this is a one off calc, a more apt example would be if some CGM randomly decided we don't accept ripping feats because they're secretly wrong, they'd still need to go through the process of overturning them.

this thread'll be on hold anyway since agnaa's actually made a thread addressing your concern over the standards of upscaling LS, so ain't nothin to do but wait until that one comes to a conclusion.

It isn't my concerns, it's his concerns, concerns he has to prove and get implemented first, I'm just here watching it happen. Nobody actually has to stop anything here though as there doesn't exist any rule against this format. If a better one is to be found, we can fix it, but that's then, this is now.

The thread, also, doesn't need to stop in the slightest, you're acting like the only thing OP proposed was this specific thing.

 

[SeijiSetto]

The thread, also, doesn't need to stop in the slightest, you're acting like the only thing OP proposed was this specific thing.

my bad. i'm only referring to the high priestess bite calc, i don't have anything else to say about the others other than this which i already mentioned:

DBM's feat wouldn't be 6 million tons, the number you were looking at is the moment of inertia which is not a measure of mass.
the mass of water in that feat is just shy of 20,000 tons, Class M.

 

[Chariot190]

You're gonna be in for a shock when you learn that's just torque, something we also generally accept for LS

 

[SeijiSetto]

You're gonna be in for a shock when you learn that's just torque, something we also generally accept for LS

news to me, the more you know