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JoJo's Bizarre Adventures: Small Town/High MCB Upgrade (Parts 1 to 6)
- Thread starter Austrian-Man-Meat
- Start date
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My point was that yes, there is no "devolves into x" for this argument, because an initial negative claim still requires evidence for it if it is to be taken into consideration. Yes, a negative can be forced into the ground by a strong positive, but there can (not always will) be that possibility of an entirely disprovable negative which someone can attempt to fall back on (i.e. Prove that space unicorns don't live at the edge of the universe), weak as it may be. I simply implied that burden of proof can fall on a negative in a debate if said negative is the initial or an important claim to the argument. If said negative cannot have proof and is merely a "you cannot prove me wrong" sort of thing, of course it's likely to not even be a factor in the argument to anyone who actually cares.Alakabamm said:
1.
2. While I still don't agree on the whole minimal amount being sucked in (mainly due to the fact that there are various reasons as to why Justice's head being sucked up does not necessarily have to mean only that portion has been sucked up), I can very much see where you're coming from with the "Stands are BS" thing, mainly due to the looser explanation a lot of them receive in the series. I don't believe many options are considerably more likely than Star Platinum inhaling the fog, but you are certainly right in that there are many possible options due to the sparse information, and that does indeed complicate things.
No, but "it all" is direct reference to the fog, which covers the entire town, and is connected to the outside fog via the completely broken window, in the background. Enya is also notably not collapsed in the bottom right panel. She is on her knees mentioning that she's in pain, which obviously even part of your body being violently compressed would do. She does not collapse from lack of air until after the mention of Star Platinum sucking "it all" (the fog) in, and in the immediate next panel, said fog which Star Platinum was stated to have sucked in is entirely gone.
I want to stress again that I never said "prove the opposite", nor suggested that you needed to do so. I suggested that if you make a claim about something in the scene, evidence should be provided, even if it is "negative"/in opposition to something.
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There is a difference between me making an opposing framework and me simply attacking your own links to your warrants. The former requires warrants because I am forwarding my own perspective, the latter is merely me checking your own argument, which itself relies upon internal logic that can never be warranted unless you want to make this an 80-page debate. Throughout this, I have always been attacking links, not proposing a competing stucture so I'm not really required to go that extreme.
Also, what I mean by "ground" is the argument itself, which the positive constructs. When the positive constructs an argument, they have a supreme advantage in setting the grounds for how it can be discussed which means that attacking links is far more than fair.
2. OK.
"It all" is at best an indirect reference because the town is not mentioned explictly. The panel on the bottom right is important because it shows that the fog around Enya is gone before SP has even taken in a lot of it (as evidenced by the position of the apparition) and yet she is already struggling. There is no way that he could have taken in 10000x more fog without killing her, if that tiny amount did that much.
That's fine, but just remember that disconnecting links in your argument =/= making a claim.
Also, what I mean by "ground" is the argument itself, which the positive constructs. When the positive constructs an argument, they have a supreme advantage in setting the grounds for how it can be discussed which means that attacking links is far more than fair.
2. OK.
"It all" is at best an indirect reference because the town is not mentioned explictly. The panel on the bottom right is important because it shows that the fog around Enya is gone before SP has even taken in a lot of it (as evidenced by the position of the apparition) and yet she is already struggling. There is no way that he could have taken in 10000x more fog without killing her, if that tiny amount did that much.
That's fine, but just remember that disconnecting links in your argument =/= making a claim.
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The problem here is you seem to think that when I say "provide evidence", I mean for anything you say in opposition to what I say. This is not the case, as that would pretty much already qualify as evidence for the opposite point should it be solid enough. My point was that earlier, you made a few claims (before I was even part of this debate). One of them was that Star Platinum did not suck up Justice's whole body. The point I was making was that this claim, despite its negative nature, requires evidence. It is a negative claim which can be argued. Not that every time you attacked a link, you were required to provide undeniable proof that the opposition to my ideas was correct. Sorry if I was unable to articulate that, properly.
Anyway, back on the topic of my actual arguments, it is not entirely important that "it all" makes direct mention of the town. "It all" explicitly refers to the fog, which is Justice's body. In order to suck in "it all", Star Platinum would be required to suck in all of Justice. Justice's entire body covers the town, and is directly connected to the face and current room the cast is in via a large, broken window to the outside. As I said before, once Star Platinum had started sucking Justice in, it caused her lots of pain, but that is far from completely cutting off her ability to breathe. While you have repeatedly stated that it was only that only a small portion of Justice had been sucked in at the time, this is far from the only option, as going by how soon after the line "he's sucking it all in" comes, it's equally possible that Star Platinum inhaled a large amount in a short period of time. This would make sense, as having a small portion of Justice being compacted would not cause Enya to be unable to breathe, as much, MUCH more of Justice's body would still be outside and unaffected.
See first paragraph.
Anyway, back on the topic of my actual arguments, it is not entirely important that "it all" makes direct mention of the town. "It all" explicitly refers to the fog, which is Justice's body. In order to suck in "it all", Star Platinum would be required to suck in all of Justice. Justice's entire body covers the town, and is directly connected to the face and current room the cast is in via a large, broken window to the outside. As I said before, once Star Platinum had started sucking Justice in, it caused her lots of pain, but that is far from completely cutting off her ability to breathe. While you have repeatedly stated that it was only that only a small portion of Justice had been sucked in at the time, this is far from the only option, as going by how soon after the line "he's sucking it all in" comes, it's equally possible that Star Platinum inhaled a large amount in a short period of time. This would make sense, as having a small portion of Justice being compacted would not cause Enya to be unable to breathe, as much, MUCH more of Justice's body would still be outside and unaffected.
See first paragraph.
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I'm only saying that he didn't suck up his full body because a) the warrants for it are weak b) occam's razor says we go with the direct panel showings and c) it is the primary positive claim itself and the basis of the feat. So me saying the opposite had a lot more to do with attacking the warrants than anything else.
Justice's body at that point was related to several entities, one of which was the town and the other a very small stand like configuration. It could refer to anything so without a direct modifier it is not enough.
He couldn't have inhaled in a large amount because he failed to inhale in the smallish stand like body in that timespan.
Justice's body at that point was related to several entities, one of which was the town and the other a very small stand like configuration. It could refer to anything so without a direct modifier it is not enough.
He couldn't have inhaled in a large amount because he failed to inhale in the smallish stand like body in that timespan.
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I don't view the warrants to be as weak as you do, primarily because Justice having a part of itself sucked in and causing the whole stand to vanish, despite the fact that it has shown to be capable of just being fog with no humanoid features, does not seem to be the most logical conclusion. Yes, there haven't been other stands too similar to Justice, but Stands have always shown to have their entirety linked to their users. For example, Hol Horse's Emperor is both the gun and the bullets it fires, even when the two are disconnected. Justice having a portion of itself sucked up would hurt Enya, yes, but there isn't reason to assume it would somehow shut off the entire Stand. Due to Justice's nature, I doubt it looking remotely humanoid gives it some kind of inherent importance, unless I'm missing something.
"It" refers directly to the fog mentioned in the prior sentence. If it was meant to refer to Justice's presence in the room, it would have almost certainly read "He's sucking Justice's face up" (like in the anime), or even just "He's sucking the Stand up".
I don't follow. The panels by no means convey that as a certainty. It could easily be an artistic license, as the two panels are separated, and the hands could easily be meant to convey Justice itself was still being sucked up. There's also the option of the face itself resisting and swirling while other fog was sucked in, which as you pointed out to me earlier, the anime itself shows. It's a possibility that only that tiny portion of Justice was inhaled, but it is not a fact.
"It" refers directly to the fog mentioned in the prior sentence. If it was meant to refer to Justice's presence in the room, it would have almost certainly read "He's sucking Justice's face up" (like in the anime), or even just "He's sucking the Stand up".
I don't follow. The panels by no means convey that as a certainty. It could easily be an artistic license, as the two panels are separated, and the hands could easily be meant to convey Justice itself was still being sucked up. There's also the option of the face itself resisting and swirling while other fog was sucked in, which as you pointed out to me earlier, the anime itself shows. It's a possibility that only that tiny portion of Justice was inhaled, but it is not a fact.
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- Thread starter
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If we go by panel showings we clearly see the clouds made outside the building visible after Jotaro had "inahled all the fog"
Saying that Enya was ko'd and therefore stopped the use of her stand is wrong, she was concious enough to speak and even maintain the illusionary town.
Maybe we should get JoJoveller stand book scans for definitve proof, however this will be kinda difficult seeing as it is only in Japanese and costs a bloody fortune.
Saying that Enya was ko'd and therefore stopped the use of her stand is wrong, she was concious enough to speak and even maintain the illusionary town.
Maybe we should get JoJoveller stand book scans for definitve proof, however this will be kinda difficult seeing as it is only in Japanese and costs a bloody fortune.
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A thought process still means she was conscious enough to use her stand. Kakyoin was able to use his stand after Dio made him into a living donut and sent him flying straight into a water tank, guy on part 5 was mangled on a train and was keeping his stand up until the point of death. As long as Enya was not truly knocked out there is no other way for the fog to be completely disspelled other than Jotaro inhaling it.
But why would you think it's a thought process? Is it because of the weird looking speach bubble thing?
But why would you think it's a thought process? Is it because of the weird looking speach bubble thing?
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- Thread starter
- #91
Huh, never knew about that.
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It definitely seems to be a thought bubble, though that would mean she was still conscious.
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Alright, so now what?
This seems like solid proof to me
"By the time Star Platinum is done with sucking in all the fog, Enya is completely unable to breathe due to her stand being compressed within Star Platinums lungs. We know that Star Platinum could not have just inhaled the fog present in the room because the clouds (which was previously blocked by fog) is now visible. And knowing that Enya was conscious whilst the clouds were visible we know that her turning of her stand is not the case. However the illusions were gone only when Enya was truly ko'd."
I have adressed the issue on what "sucking in all the fog" refers to (not just aparition) with evidence from the panels. And have shown Enya was still conscious by showing she was still capable of thought even after SP inhaled her stand.
This seems like solid proof to me
"By the time Star Platinum is done with sucking in all the fog, Enya is completely unable to breathe due to her stand being compressed within Star Platinums lungs. We know that Star Platinum could not have just inhaled the fog present in the room because the clouds (which was previously blocked by fog) is now visible. And knowing that Enya was conscious whilst the clouds were visible we know that her turning of her stand is not the case. However the illusions were gone only when Enya was truly ko'd."
I have adressed the issue on what "sucking in all the fog" refers to (not just aparition) with evidence from the panels. And have shown Enya was still conscious by showing she was still capable of thought even after SP inhaled her stand.
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I agree with Austrian. Where did this whole Apparition meme come from? I thought the entirety of the fog = Justice Stand. Rather than trying to fit your idea into the author creation, why don't you try to understand what the author tried to convey here?
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"We know that Star Platinum could not have just inhaled the fog present in the room because the clouds (which was previously blocked by fog) is now visible." Not direct enough, not implied by the panels, not implied by the way she was affected by a miniscule amount being taken in and certainly not. You have stopped replying to my posts because you failed to address them, and so there is no reason for you to continue saying the same things over and over and over and OVER.
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I don't even understand what you are trying to say. The only theory being posited - the one that doesn't have direct panel proof - is the one you are trying to support. You are, in fact, the one trying to fit your idea into the author's creation. What he portrayed is not enough to speculate on what was occuring in the rest of the town.Aurugermil said:
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(1) Not just a small portion, an insanely small portion compared to what you are suggesting. Insanely.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
(2) That's not an argument, that's just trying to, once more, suggest that I am proposing an alternative. I am not. I don't think the author said "he is sucking the town's fog up" or "he is sucking the body up". Neither of those are true. So what you are left with is evidence that can't be applied either way, which you, nonetheless, are still trying to do.
(3) What is fact is that only a small portion of Justice was ever shown, in panel, being inhaled. There is no picture of the town being inhaled. There is no picture of the winds outside the room picking up. There is nothing but that one small body being depicted and thus when we talk about what is speculation and what is fact, the only thing that is fact is that the small body was inhaled.
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1. Yes, a very small portion, which is why it would seem all the weirder and less consistent with other stands that having that insanely small portion alone sucked up would cause Enya such harm.
2. It is very much an argument, and it wasn't even suggesting you were proposing anything. I simply said that "it" referred directly to the fog, and then addressed the counter point that could be brough up of only Justice's face/presence in the room being sucked up, because as I said earlier, no smaller body is ever referred to and the area appears to be open and connected to the rest of the town.
3. Yes, it is fact that the small body was inhaled, as even with the lowest possible assumption, you see the head be inhaled. The key word was "only". Simply because that is all we see does not mean it's all that was sucked up. I never stated Star Platinum sucking up anything outside to be fact. I provided reasoning for my belief as to why it wasn't the only thing sucked up, and why only the said small head image being sucked up "deactivating" it would seem go against the concept of this stand.
Once again, I have never stated certain things to be fact (Star Platinum sucking up all the fog, for example). I have only provided reasons as to why I believe it to be what is likely the case. There is a difference between speculation with no basis and drawing conclusions based on things within a story and universe.
2. It is very much an argument, and it wasn't even suggesting you were proposing anything. I simply said that "it" referred directly to the fog, and then addressed the counter point that could be brough up of only Justice's face/presence in the room being sucked up, because as I said earlier, no smaller body is ever referred to and the area appears to be open and connected to the rest of the town.
3. Yes, it is fact that the small body was inhaled, as even with the lowest possible assumption, you see the head be inhaled. The key word was "only". Simply because that is all we see does not mean it's all that was sucked up. I never stated Star Platinum sucking up anything outside to be fact. I provided reasoning for my belief as to why it wasn't the only thing sucked up, and why only the said small head image being sucked up "deactivating" it would seem go against the concept of this stand.
Once again, I have never stated certain things to be fact (Star Platinum sucking up all the fog, for example). I have only provided reasons as to why I believe it to be what is likely the case. There is a difference between speculation with no basis and drawing conclusions based on things within a story and universe.
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3. If you buy (1), then this shouldn't be a logical jump because the small amount had a huge effect.
Even so, speculation is speculation and what is shown takes precedence. As I said before, there are very many speculative arguments that can be made but going by what is shown first and foremost is the principle of Occam's razor.
Even so, speculation is speculation and what is shown takes precedence. As I said before, there are very many speculative arguments that can be made but going by what is shown first and foremost is the principle of Occam's razor.
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3. The contention wasn't even really fully that he would need to absorb all of it for her to collapse. Simply that the stand itself vanishing without being entirely absorbed and while its user was alive, but in pain seems odd. Not to mention the whole reason she collapsed was because she couldn't breathe, which she should have been able to do had such a large portion of the stand remained.
I don't know if one could call it the simplest option, as many questions are left if we assume only the shown portion of Justice was sucked up as shown.. Why would the entire stand vanish from a small portion being sucked up? Why would Enya faint from lack of breath if the vast, vast majority of her stand remained unaffected? Why would the stand immediately disperse upon her collapsing despite her seeming to maintain consciousness? I don't think these can really be written off as minor things due to their importance to the whole scenario and the nature of the cast's victory.
I don't know if one could call it the simplest option, as many questions are left if we assume only the shown portion of Justice was sucked up as shown.. Why would the entire stand vanish from a small portion being sucked up? Why would Enya faint from lack of breath if the vast, vast majority of her stand remained unaffected? Why would the stand immediately disperse upon her collapsing despite her seeming to maintain consciousness? I don't think these can really be written off as minor things due to their importance to the whole scenario and the nature of the cast's victory.
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Was that ever mentioned? It's been a while since I read part 3 in its entirety, though I don't remember that being something that was stated about Justice.
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The "sub-body" is sucked up on panel. This does not mean the sub-body is so important that the stand cannot function without it. Aren't there instances in which this "sub-body" does not even manifest when Justice is used and is simply part of the fog? The body itself seems to vary in size and shape, and it's not like it contains any vital organs or anything. In fact, it's not even separate from the main body, which is the fog. The anime (and OVA) seemed to treat it like some kind of head which was important, but I do not recall anything of the like being implied in the manga.
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I'm very much aware. I mentioned it because, as I said, the head is actually treated as important there, but I do not remember any such mention in the manga. As I said, it's been a while.Alakabamm said:
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Panel evidence showing exclusivley on why only the sub body was sucked in?
Doesnt the quote " He's sucking it all in!" followed by clear skies and no fog basically disprove that he had only sucked in the sub body, otherwise how would you explain that the whole town was disspelled of its fog? Nothing is mentioned about the sub body being connected with the rest of the fog, so assuming so is not going to help anything.
You have failed to convince me and many others it's an 8-2, I say we should drop this and actually move on with how we are going to calc this feat rather than continuing this debate which has already been agreed upon.
Doesnt the quote " He's sucking it all in!" followed by clear skies and no fog basically disprove that he had only sucked in the sub body, otherwise how would you explain that the whole town was disspelled of its fog? Nothing is mentioned about the sub body being connected with the rest of the fog, so assuming so is not going to help anything.
You have failed to convince me and many others it's an 8-2, I say we should drop this and actually move on with how we are going to calc this feat rather than continuing this debate which has already been agreed upon.
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The only panels we have show the body being sucked in and nothing afterwards.
It doesn't need to be mentioned honestly, since we go with what is shown over theories about what is shown.
This debate has not been agreed upon and as a calc member, considering that this is part of the calc, I don't approve.
It doesn't need to be mentioned honestly, since we go with what is shown over theories about what is shown.
This debate has not been agreed upon and as a calc member, considering that this is part of the calc, I don't approve.
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8/7 people (discluding me) agree with Jotaro inhaling the town of fog, including a calc member and an admin.
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Tivanenk said:
Are fogs basically grounded clouds? Thats the impression I get from this article. We are also not given a proper timeframe when SP inhales the fog either so perhaps you can adjust it so it fits atmospheric pressure. So air density could be used, however you can do one with a fast timeframe but without air density either.
Plus Jotaro inhaling the fog exlcusivley so it disapears would not really deprive the town of it's oxygen either I feel. Since Enya's fog would just add to the overall amount of oxygen present in the area. If I am wrong about this feel free to tell me.
Oh yea, I am looking through towns in the UK with a population size of 2K people, If you want a mean size for diameter check here
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Ahhhhhhh alright. We should find overall size of the Town first. My bet is 70km^2 in area (found a few of them in the list, forgot though..)Tivanenk said:
Okay so we can do two calcs here.
One with air density (longer timeframe)
One without air density (Shorter timeframe)
Perhaps doing both and going for the highest result seems like the best option here.
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Either way the diameter should be much more higher than 1 Kilometer.Tivanenk said:
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This is from the UK keep in mind, I have yet to research any towns within Pakistan which can have a 2 thousand population.Tivanenk said:
