JoJo's Bizarre Adventures: Small Town/High MCB Upgrade (Parts 1 to 6)

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Proof for Star Platinum being able to affect all the fog is this.

> Star Platinum inhales the fog which begins to choke out Enya.

> Star Platinum is finished sucking up the stand which completely makes Enya completely breathless

> The clouds are now visible from outside the building and Enya is still conscious (implies Jotaro had inhaled the fog which covered the town. And not because of Enya losing power with her stand, dispersing the clouds)

> Enya loses complete consciousnees which dispells the illusionary buildings.

Also the anime should not be used in any circumstances as we have to deal with the manga panels. Which directly quote Star Platinum to completely sucking in all the fog (which covered the town)

 

[fandom_007Goldeneye]

I agree with the small town upgrade, if you check this sca, Star Platinum inhales all the fog that covered the town.

I think that's good enough.

 

[Tivanenk]

I agree with Alakabamm. He dismantled every point rather efficiently and has shown that there isn't enough proof for such an upgrade.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Only you seem to think that Tiva. Everybody else agrees with Star Platinum inhaling the town of fog.

 

[Tivanenk]

Not just me, Alakabamm also agrees that there is no town level shenanigans. And he's actually a calc member so I think his say has more impact when it comes to this matter.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

1 calcer < 4 people & admin agreeing for the upgrade. The people themselves find our points to be more convincing than yours unfortunately.

We have already proved Star Platinum has inhaled all of the fog (direct quotes,visible clouds and a conscious Enya) yet you're still adamant on saying otherwise. It truly has gotten somewhat frustrating, especially when the anime is being brought into the topic.

I say we get more thoughts and opinions regarding the matter.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Regardless of this current convo going on.. we still have not had input from other calc members about whether this calc itself is actually usable for AP/Dura.

@Alaka regardless of whether he sucked up the town fog or not, assuming he did do you think that can be translated to Attack potency/Durability?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

This feat translating to Attack Potency or Durability would be nice to know.

 

[Tivanenk]

My thoughts? No. You have to remember that he had to spend a lot of time to bust those diamond teeth. If he was even small town level, he would have one shotted those teeth.

 

[CuriousWatcher]

If it can help to understand clearly what Justice is and how it works, how about translating the original japanese stat sheets which comes with a description?

Also, I want to point out that Justice has A in range and can only use illusion inside that range. As a result, Justice was probably the fog that was engulfing the whole town. Note thought that this doesn't prove that SP sucked all the body of Justice nor Justice has been deactivated so the fog disappeared.

 

[Alakabamm]

You haven't met the burden of proof so I don't agree and TBH since the fog is a component of the calc itself that means I don't agree with the calc.

Aizen, if you are asking me if the fog = town thing was legit, would it be fine then the answer is maybe. Changing the speed of the air is certainly translatable into KE. However, if he actually sucked in all of the fog, he would have actually made a vacuum according to the original calc, since his fog density includes the density of air. I'm not quite sure how you would correct for that, however.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

well, if the scans say so, it can be legit

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

If it can help to understand clearly what Justice is and how it works, how about translating the original japanese stat sheets which comes with a description?
Also, I want to point out that Justice has A in range and can only use illusion inside that range. As a result, Justice was probably the fog that was engulfing the whole town. Note thought that this doesn't prove that SP sucked all the body of Justice nor Justice has been deactivated so the fog disappeared.

It is a good idea, however JoJo-A-GO-GO is outdated compared to the newer JoJoveller artbook which also has a complete list of stands etc and there battle performance etc. However it is only in Japanese and costs quite a fortune.

 

[Tivanenk]

Come to think of it: how the hell are they still breathing if Jotaro breathed in all the air? This is more evidence that Jotaro didn't breathe in the entire fog and just a sub-body of the stand to dispel the illusion.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The calc's not about breathing in oxygen, it's about breathing in all the fog from throughout the town. Hence why only fog density is used etc.

 

[Der_Purple_Ist_Dank]

Come to think of it: how the hell are they still breathing if Jotaro breathed in all the air? This is more evidence that Jotaro didn't breathe in the entire fog and just a sub-body of the stand to dispel the illusion.

When did the scan ever say Jotaro sucked in all the air? I feel like you're just stalling now...

 

[Tivanenk]

The calc's not about breathing in oxygen, it's about breathing in all the fog from throughout the town. Hence why only fog density is used etc.

Actually, he calculated using cloud density which does include the air. If he only wanted to calculate fog, he would have to take the ppm of water and remove the air from the equation, but he did not.

 

[Tivanenk]

Come to think of it: how the hell are they still breathing if Jotaro breathed in all the air? This is more evidence that Jotaro didn't breathe in the entire fog and just a sub-body of the stand to dispel the illusion.

When did the scan ever say Jotaro sucked in all the air? I feel like you're just stalling now...

The calc itself uses air in its equation, thus invalidating it. And how would Jotaro suck in the fog without sucking in the air to choke Enya?

 

[Alakabamm]

The calc's not about breathing in oxygen, it's about breathing in all the fog from throughout the town. Hence why only fog density is used etc.

The fog density includes the density of the air.

@007Goldeneye, do not post spam in this thread.

 

[Tivanenk]

Come to think of it: how the hell are they still breathing if Jotaro breathed in all the air? This is more evidence that Jotaro didn't breathe in the entire fog and just a sub-body of the stand to dispel the illusion.

RERORERORERORERORERORERORERORERORERORERORERO
Scan never said anything about inhaling the air, you stalling bruh?

RERORERORERORERORERORERORERORERORERORERORERO

Calc uses air to calculate the energy yield. So if you want to argue that Jotaro didn't suck in air, it would completely invalidate the calc in the first place.

 

[SomebodyData]

Actually Tivan has a point, by extension, he had to have sucked up the air around as well. Unless the fog was like a complete liquid or something

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

He based the fog's weight on cloud density, still don't see how that includes sucking in air also.

And most of the people who commented in the thread (Chaos Theory,Wily) where fine with the calculation overall. It even got accepted into the OBD power ranking thing (Which was how Azazoth discovered it)

Only this seemed like a problem " I think you could've done at least an approximate scaling on the town before making the calc.Because depending on its size the feat could be multitudes more/less impressive."

 

[Alakabamm]

Cloud density includes air density.

 

[Tivanenk]

Nuh-uh-uh. If you want to suck in only the fog (the liquid water) without the air, you wouldn't take the cloud density, but rather the liquid water content, which according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_water_content

is 0.00005 kg/m^3. Which would reduce the mass that Jotaro needed to suck in by over 20000 times, and the yield by 20000 times. Which means it's less than a tenth of a ton in reality.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The point still stands that Star Platinum managed to inhale all the fog, which is widely agreed on. The rest of the party is never shown at all in the manga during it, so we cant say for sure if they are holding in there breath or not. Even if they where it can be disregarded as PIS. Similalry to the Hanged Man coin feat and various other FTL feats.

 

[SomebodyData]

Nah, all it needs is to be recalced without air density, other than that, its legit

 

[Tivanenk]

A) The calc is based on a false scenario. The fog is not actually inhaled, but rather the sub-body of the stand is the reason why the illusion is dispelled and thus the premise of which the calc is based on is invalid.

and/or

B) The calc is purely wrong in the first place. Star Platinum did not create a vacuum in the room, as the others are clearly still breathing, meaning that he only absorbed the liquid content of the fog. As a result, the calc is invalidated by using an incorrect property to calculate the energy yield.

Either way, the calc is false and not acceptable. I don't care if the OBD members accepted a 2012 calc, they're very inattentive when it comes to actually checking calcs. As it stands, the calc cannot be accepted under current conditions.

 

[Tivanenk]

Nah, all it needs is to be recalced without air density, other than that, its legit

Pointless. I just did the calc myself on Wolfram and got 0.06 tons of TNT, which is small building level. Jotaro already has way better feats than that, so why bother?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Nah, all it needs is to be recalced without air density, other than that, its legit

It should be re calced with the proper measurements of fog, if Air density is not included within fog whatsoever I have no qualms with it.

If air density is present in fog then that should still be included within the feat, seeing as Jotaro did manage to inhale a town full of fog. The details of them not chocking can be just called PIS as said before.

 

[Tivanenk]

No, PIS would be something like forgetting to draw burn marks after a fire attack. Them not choking is not PIS at all, it means that there was air in the room. The fact that you throw away any argument against you as PIS really bothers me, especially since there's no proof for many things. In fact, how about we write off the "He's sucking in all the fog!" as PIS? That makes more sense.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Er, why shouldn't there be air in the room? The air from external sources could have simply traveled inside to make up for the decrease in concentration of gasses.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

(Seeing Mighty's post changed my mind. If that is given a good counter argument I have no problems with giving up this upgrade)

Enya being the only one chocking is probably the result of her stand being compressed into SP's lungs. Everyone else could of still breathed via air from external sources as the point above says.

 

[Tivanenk]

Er, why shouldn't there be air in the room? The air from external sources could have simply traveled inside to make up for the decrease in concentration of gasses.

Because he would have just sucked up a town's worth of air? Atmospheric pressure isn't enough for it to replenish in seconds, the point where they would be standing in would be a vacuum or have so little air that they would have passed out.

 

[Tivanenk]

Think of it this way, if Jotaro is using a small town level of energy to suck in air, then there would need to be small town energy to force the air back in at the same speed. So unless you're saying that the air is delivering the energy equivalent to the punch of a boxer in your face each second, then it's not an argument.

 

[Alakabamm]

The timeframe is 1 second, it would pretty much be a near instant vacuum.

If you used, like, a minute or something the natural air may be able to compensate.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

The timeframe is 1 second, it would pretty much be a near instant vacuum.

If you used, like, a minute or something the natural air may be able to compensate.

There goes my point.

 

[Tivanenk]

Do you even know what a vacuum is? It's a space void of matter, that's it. I don't care what the size of it is. In fact, you can make a pseudo-vacuum in your own home, people do that all the time to check for air leakage.

Face it, there's no evidence of any sort that the air has been sucked up fully by Jotaro, clearly evidence by the fact that the company is standing around just fine: no indication of breathing problems, no indication of fainting, no statements about air missing. Hell, they wouldn't even be able to talk without a medium. So air is clearly there. Atmospheric pressure is not enough to refill the air Jotaro would have sucked up.

I know this site loves to upgrade their favorites, I do too. But it needs to be done on a clear and concise basis, not suppositions where someone purposefully twists the situation in their favour while ignoring the counter evidence.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not really. It's a standard of argumentation. Otherwise, it just degenerates into "you can't prove x" competitions.

1. I don't care much about the anime line in particular, what I care about is the lack of reference to the town. If it isn't there it's just an implication at best.

2. She was already choking hard even befeore he full apparition was taken in. The next panel that occurred after SP took in the apparition by itself showed her collapsed. It's pretty clear that its the apparition, not the town. As for dispelling the fog, I'm not exactly forwarding that, per se. There are a variety of reasons it could have acted that way, but I certainly don't think sucking up the entire town is the most evidenced or even the best by Occam's razor. It seems a lot better to go by what we see, which is what we can actually confirm.

As for sucking in merely the apparition, the panels I referenced above regarding the order of events and whether the apparition was fully in the mouth or not are pretty much the evidence I have to the contrary for that.

Holy crap, what happened while I was gone? Anyway...

By that logic, someone claiming a negative always has the shield of "you can't prove me wrong", which is nonsense. If an initial claim is made, and that claim is a negative claim, they must still provide proof for it. You made a claim that Star Platinum only inhaled Justice's "apparition" and nothing else. You could then state something like, "The room was closed off, therefore Star Platinum could not have reached the outside fog" (which isn't the case, but still). If I then said something like, "You can't prove Star Platinum is unable to suck up Justice through walls", then it would just devolve into "You can't prove x". Since this is not debate format, in which a single point is brought up with one side defending it and the other side trying to disprove their points, it is a case by case basis.

1. I would argue the importance of heavy implications, such as the room not being closed off to the rest of the town and the fact that Justice's body itself was all of the fog and, unlike in the anime, the room is less inclosed and no reference is made to Justice's "body" aside from the image of its face and hands, but you've already expressed your disagreement, and I'm not really trying to convince you, so whatever. My initial point made several comments ago was stating why I believed Star Platinum inhaled all the fog. If you believe "it's just implications", then that's fine, because as I said before, I'm not even really arguing in favor of the calc. Just that Justice's body was in fact all the fog.

2. Having what is basically air sucked out of your lungs and being entirely unable to breathe are two different things. When Star Platinum begins inhaling Justice, Enya mentions that "it hurts". It's not until the line "he's sucking it all in", which implies Star Platinum had already inhaled a significant amount, that she is totally unable to breathe. As for the variety of reasons the fog could have dispersed, what are you referring to? This isn't really an argumentative question. I'm genuinely curious, because to me, a significant portion of the fog being inhaled seems to be the most likely option, due to it vanishing immediately in the panel in which Enya falls over, which is right after Justice is inhaled.

I have already covered the "apparition being not fully in his mouth" thing. As I said before, Enya shows a difference between just being in pain and being unable to breathe. If this is because of the line "he's sucking it all in", it is likely "it all" refers to the fog, which was mentioned in the previous sentence, as opposed to Justice's apparition body. Something like "he's inhaling Justice" or even "he's inhaling Justice's body" could definitely suggest only the apparition being sucked in due to context (despite the entirety of its body being all the fog), but the mention of Star Platinum sucking up all the fog without specific mention of the smaller Justice seems to suggest otherwise.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The timeframe is 1 second, it would pretty much be a near instant vacuum.
If you used, like, a minute or something the natural air may be able to compensate.

Before we get any timeframes of the sort. We should perhaps look for clues which would enable us to look for how big the diameter of the town actually is?

Joseph here gives us a hint that the population is about a couple thousand people. Due to his intellect and resoruceful nature I think we can take this statement to be true.

Now I think we should look for the common sizes of a town in Pakistan (whatever town) with a population of about 2000 people and get down a mean for diameter. The height is not really a problem seeing that there is only one large building which can be pixel scaled from the jeep they drive in.

 

[Alakabamm]

snip

On conceptual structure of debate: a person should always have the right to question your warrants aka your evidence. There is no "devolves into x" for this because attacking internal links between evidence and justifications is important to ensuring that it is actually evidence. Furthermore, if I use an unwarranted turn and it still is legitimate, all that means is that your link was weak. So there is no "unlimited tries" from a negative persepective, since ultimately the negative is forced into ground that the positive sets forward.

1. OK

2. She's already collapsed by the time the feet are sticking out of SP's mouth (read: a minimal amount of time) and she started collapsing once less than 0.001% of the speculated fog was inside. That's rather extreme if you need to suck up all the fog. When I say "variety of reasons" I am referring to the fact that stands are BS and that anything could cause her fog to disappear, really. It could be linked to her mental state, her consciousness (somewhat confirmed), its representation in a single body, the giant amount of fog itself could be an illusion, could be confidence based, etc, etc. Occam's razor says we go with the simplest and the simplest is what is shown directly and unquestionable in the panel, which is the small stand body merely getting sucked up.

"It all" is not a reference to the town directly and Enya is already collapsed in the bottom right panel, despite the fact that less than 0.001% of the town fog is inside SP. That's way too far gone for town level shenanigans to be true.

Again, I don't need to prove the opposite. See my conceptual argument above. If your link is weak, I can just disconnect your warrant entirely and not worry about turning it.