JoJo Stuff (Mostly Phantom Blood)

[Promestein]

The Stuff that Is Phantom Blood

Why are Jonathan, Zeppeli, and Bruford Building level? Tarkus, who is himself inferior to Dio, defeated Jonathan and Zeppeli without much issue. There doesn't seem to be any source for their Building level feats? The pages don't even scale them to Tarkus.

Jonathan, Zeppeli, Bruford, Dire, and Straizo should probably all be At least Small Building level - possibly Building level+, in the latter two's cases, as Dire was able to briefly fight against a powered up Jonathan. They should also all be Hypersonic, not Hypersonic+; Mach 5 is Hypersonic. (Bruford is also just Supersonic for some reason?)

Even that's questionable, given that a casual Dio > Zeppeli and Jonathan, so maybe Unknown is best. Though there's Supersonic ratings. I don't remember where those come from but if you'll enlighten me I'm fine with that.

The Stuff that Isn't Phantom Blood
I edited Kira's page the other day and someone edited it to remove the + from all the Building level statistics. This is stupid. While Killer Queen is weaker than Crazy Diamond and Star Platinum, it is within the same range and its bombs can easily badly injure Josuke.

So Building level+ for Killer Queen and co. is completely fine. Removing it from their durabilities is especially inane, since Kira took barrages from both Jotaro and Josuke.

TLDR:

• Jonathan:
  • Building level -> At least Small Building level
  • Hypersonic+ -> Hypersonic or Unknow
• Zeppeli:
  • Building level -> At least Small Building level
  • Hypersonic+ > Hypersonic or Unknow
• Bruford:
  • Building level -> At least Small Building level
  • Supersonic -> Hypersonic or Unknow
• Dire:
  • Likely Building level -> At least Small Building level, likely Building level+
  • Hypersonic+ -> Hypersonic
• Straizo:
  • Likely Building level -> At least Small Building level, likely Building level+
  • Hypersonic+ -> Hypersonic
• Dio:
  • Supersonic with Hypersonic reactions and attack speed -> Hypersonic

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Agreed

 

[TriforcePower1]

• Part 1

I think they upscale from this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kkapoios/Some_JJBA_calcs

I don't know if they still reach 8-C, though.

• Kira

Stand users durability is, inconsistent to say the least. I don't know if harming Josuke really counts as 8-C+. Also, Kira never tanked anything from Jotaro, as he got heavily harmed and wasn't able to continue fighting both times, and Crazy Diamond is shown to be much stronger than Killer Queen (a single kick harmed Killer Queen pretty badly).

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It was less the single kick harming Killer Queen badly and more that from that exchange between the two, Kira understood that in terms of a pure fight, Crazy Diamond would overpower Killer Queen.

 

[Promestein]

Yes, that's the 9-A calc I'm trying to get them scaled to.

Oh I strongly disagree with scaling Stand user durability to Stands (besides a few cases where the Stand user actually TAKES a hit rather than just surviving it) and was planning on making a thread about it later, but for now it would be better to be consistent. You're right, though. Kira is completely incapable of fighting after a beatdown from Jotaro, and would be in similar condition if Josuke was able to beat him down.

A kick didn't harm Killer Queen THAT badly, anyways, and it took a much more solid punch to the head and kept on fighting. Kira does get back up after flying into the wall from that kick, though, and the wall cracked, IIRC. So that's a more sensible durability feat.

Sheer Heart Attack should definitely be Building level+ though. It nearly killed Jotaro and knocked him unconscious, which is more than DIO accomplished with a beatdown or two.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

There's Koichi shrugging off getting slammed into the ground hard enough to crack it by Giorno reflecting gravity back at him.

 

[Promestein]

Yes, that too. That's also a feat for ECHOES ACT3, since that was the effect of its attack being reflected.

Let's stay on topic, though.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Okay, your proposals make sense.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Yeah, this makes sense.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Sheer Heart Attack should definitely be Building level+ though. It nearly killed Jotaro and knocked him unconscious, which is more than DIO accomplished with a beatdown or two.

This is funny, but I agree with this.

 

[Promestein]

Bump.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

ProfessorLord is rolling over in his grave ovo

 

[Eficiente]

I agree.

Why does ghost Kira have High-Low regen? He literally got Skywalker'd and couldn't heal from that.

 

[Promestein]

No clue.

 

[Eficiente]

@Prom Btw I really like how you improved all those JoJo profiles, nice work.

 

[Promestein]

Thanks.

 

[TataHakai]

I think i redid the Jojo calc and got different results, the 9-A one.

 

[Promestein]

Please provide.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Stand users should be scaled when they are attacked by someone with killing intent. Jotaro obviously pulls his punches, but in other cases the stand users are actually trying to kill.

Jonathan is able to harm Dio, all hamon aside, anyway. Remember that he almost bisected him

 

[Promestein]

Yes, I agree. The best example there is Jotaro taking beatdowns from DIO.

That was post-Deep Pass Hamon Jonathan, who is Building level+, yes. That was not base Jonathan.

 

[DMB_1]

We have no 8-C+ calcs IIRC.

Jnoathan, Jotaro, Dio etcetera are 8-C+ via being far superior to Tarkus and others, who are currently 8-C.

 

[Promestein]

Well, okay.

 

[DMB_1]

Also, I have an issue with Speedwago:

He is 8-C with his hat bai being able to harm Jonathan. even if Jonathan at the time had no Hamon training, people still thought that for some reason, he shouldn't have gotten much stronger with that, which is silly since he got stomped by a likely 9-A Dio, whop at the time had no knowledge on his vampiric powers.

Edit: looks like it has been downgraded.

 

[Promestein]

He's not Building level? That's not on his page.

 

[DMUA]

He is 8-C with his hat

I already yeeted that awhile ago

 

[DMB_1]

Wait, if we have no 8-C+ calcs (only a few 8-C ones I think), and 8-C+ characters were 8-C+ via scaling from previously 8-C Bruford and Tarkus, will currently 8-C+ Jojo characters just become straight-up 8-C?

 

[TriforcePower1]

I think the chain scaling is long enough to put them at 8-C+.

 

[Promestein]

I mean. I don't really think so. It's just for being stronger than Tarkus.

 

[DMUA]

The calc is itself a hare away from + and Jonathan curbed them.

 

[Promestein]

Checks out then! Not really the point here though.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I agree with the Phantom Blood changes and upgrading Sheer Heart Attack to 8-C+, but I disagree on Kira or Killer Queen being at that level.

 

[Promestein]

Fair enough.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Hey Prom, thanks for taking interest in JoJo. I'll start off with things I agree with:

Your analysis seems to hold true in terms of speed, I just want to say that I believe we as a wiki in general should be more mindful when it comes to reactions and movement speed. I don't believe that they should all have Hypersonic movements speeds, as none of them have demonstrated they can move that fast for long periods of time, despite all of them having the stamina to do so (with the exception of the pillar men, as we've flat out seen Whamu move faster than dozens of armed guards could see). I propose that we treat Zeppeli's speed feat as reaction rather than movement, it really seems like a single speedy lunge and nothing suggests this can be sustained.

I agree with the AP for the most part too, except that the only 8-C+ characters in PB should be Jonathan and Dio. Dire did not do any meaningful harm to Jonathan and neither did Straizo, while both of them should be on par with Zeppeli on the basis that they're all hamon masters and have been through the same training... and we saw what happened to Zeppeli when he tried to fight Tarkus. So my conclusion for this is the same as yours, except Dire and Straizo are likely building level, no plus.

In terms of your non PB stuff, I was the one who removed all the + statistics I believe, and if I wasn't I would too. Besides it already being agreed upon in several discussion threads, Killer Queen just has not demonstrated he can fight on par with either Star Platinum or Crazy Diamond, and each time his stand has been crippled and sent flying without him getting a meaningful attack in. Compare him to The Hand for a second, who HAS fought Crazy Diamond and even had the upper hand for a large majority of the fight, sending Josuke flying backwards into a wall as a result. In essence, the + is reserved only for characters on par with the heavy hitters and from what I've seen KQ just fails to qualify as "on par".

(P.S, I'm pretty knowledgeable about JoJo, contact me in the future!)

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

I agree with the Phantom Blood changes and upgrading Sheer Heart Attack to 8-C+, but I disagree on Kira or Killer Queen being at that level.

Agreed, SHA did explode the shit out of Star Platinum.

Adding to that, Kira taking hits from CD or SP is not indicitive of his durability being on that level. In each encounter he is badly injured and left nearly crippled. I'm not 9-B because I can be hit by a car and survive.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Wait, if we have no 8-C+ calcs (only a few 8-C ones I think), and 8-C+ characters were 8-C+ via scaling from previously 8-C Bruford and Tarkus, will currently 8-C+ Jojo characters just become straight-up 8-C?

The best 8-C calc is the one with Jolyne delecting meteorites. Since she could so relatively casually, it's probably safe to assume that if really angered and bloodlusted, they could definitely dish out more strength than what is seen.

The main piece of logic though is Star Platinum and related stands are so much stronger than ones like Killer Queen, Echoes, Silver Chariot, Hierophant Green, Magician's Red, Golden Experience, etc etc, that they should NOT scale to each other 1-1.

The + is basically their to denote that they are shown to be much stronger in comparison to other 8-C characters despite them all technically being rated on the same feats. (By so much stronger I mean Star Platinum shatteringanother 8-C's head strong, or choking you out with a single outstreched arm while you use your entire upper body strong, or leave large ass dents in your entire body as I break it despite me tanking a grenade and barely being alive strong)

 

[Promestein]

That's all sensible. I'm fine with leaving Dire and Straizo just 9-A.

Speedwise, I still think Unknown is better for Zeppeli and others on that level, Hypersonic doesn't make sense given how superior Dio is.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Unknown is better for Zeppeli and those on that level, but they should be given Hypersonic reaction speed as well, seeing as how all the feats listed on his page are reactions, not movement.

Dio has much better movement speed, likely Supersonic based on his flight speed while chasing Jotaro, though acknowledging that feat means acknowledging Jotaro was flying and we've already adressed it as artistic liberty rather than an ability of his.

So Dio should really just be Unknown with Hypersonic attack speed and reactions as well. When he gets into part 3 and gains his stand, we can give him MFTL reactions instead.

We can change all these unknowns if we find more running/continious movement feats in Parts 1/2, but for now I don't see anything other than lunges and ambigious dashes.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It's not artistic liberty, he's just Stand Jumping.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

heat seeking stand jumping missile amiright

 

[Promestein]

I mean, I don't think those feats are legitimate. Keeping up with a casual Dio isn't super impressive. Jonathan and Dio can get Unknown with Hypersonic reactions / attack speed, in Dio's case.