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Halo: Master Chief and Spartans' revisions and downgrades

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VersusJunkie54 said:
I just found something worth mentioning, a feat possibly from one of the stationary shade turrets. In one of the Halo 2 cutscenes, they seem to obliterates an ODST pod in some burst fire.

I'll attempt to calc it. As I understand it we do not have a fragmentation value for Titanium, so we will use steel at 208 j/cc. An ODST pod used in the scene is about 870 kilograms. The density of Titanium is 4,500 kg/M^3 so 870/4500= 0.19333 cubic meters, or 193330 cc. 208* 193330= 40.21 Megajoules, so low 9-A, but I am pretty sure it took burst shots to do this. A burst of these turrets would be 3-6 plasma bolts no? So the Shade Turrets are possibly 13.40 Megajoules, 9-B+, or 6.70 Megajoules, close to 9-B+. It's been a loooooong time since I attempted any calculations, so my math could easily be off. This result would be consistent with shown durability feats, and the MkV Mjolnir can take hits from shade turrets without breaking instantly.
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Hmm, at least it is a solid durability feat for Mark 5 MJOLNIR as the respect thread does have some feats related to Mark V I think
 
HammerStrikes219 said:


There is also the Halo 3 intro scene where we see Master Chief fall from outer space and into a specific part of the Earth
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It is a bit overlooked that his landing did create a shallow crater, but it seems to be dirt rather than rock.

This along with his fall in Halo 4 was calced at around 1-2 megajoules iirc. But more importantly, I want to debunk the Halo detractors trying to downplay Spartans with this.

Firstly, it is implied that John broke off from a powered descent, secondly, John wasn't even injured, his armor was fine from the crash as well. His armor does lock, but he is able to get back up and fight relatively quickly. So this is not an Anti-Feat, it's a supporting feat, especially since John withstood an orbital fall in Halo 4 with no difficulty, his armor didn't even lock, Noble Six also took a terminal velocity fall with at worst moderate injuries.

John also likely crashed into In Amber Clad in Halo 2 at a speed well over 100 meters per second. DDM calced John's speed at 57m/s after giving the Covenant back their bomb, but that calc is flawed. A Covenant carrier is massive, and John is flying fast enough to be well ahead of the blast, when the bomb was possibly 10-15 seconds or less away from detonation going by Cortana's statement "you don't want to know". There's no way John covered that distance away from a massive Covenant carrier in that timeframe at 57 m/s (though tbh that entire cutscene is a little strange).

Jerome in his MkIV jumped from a Banished ship, and didn't seem all to concerned about reentry, or the impact. The only time we see a Spartan actually die, or take serious injuries from a terminal velocity fall is in First Strike, and while some died, and others were gravely injured, other Spartans no sold the fall. Mind you that was in the MkV.

Even when the 9-A-8-C Spartans were a thing, the First Strike fall is outnumbered by other orbital fall feats where Spartans are either fine, or moderately injured at worst. So an Anti-Anti feat if you will (god I hate that term).
 
Hmm, I'm gonna shell out some more Halo Wars shenanigans by mentioning that the Spirit of Fire can drop Scorpions and Colossus at ablation speeds considering they catch fire on the way down.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Hmm, I'm gonna shell out some more Halo Wars shenanigans by mentioning that the Spirit of Fire can drop Scorpions and Colossus at ablation speeds considering they catch fire on the way down.
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I'm pretty skeptical about stuff like that + we do have rules about simply assuming some high end velocities just because they "Catch fire" actually.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm pretty skeptical about stuff like that + we do have rules about simply assuming some high end velocities just because they "Catch fire" actually.
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And I am fairly certain it's game mechanicy, and I've never heard of Scorpions being dropped from orbit anywhere in the Halo Lore. This is something unique to the type of game Halo Wars is.
 
You know what's really funny to think about? The fact that the Prophet of Regret can take several unshielded punches to the face from Master Chief before dying.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
You know what's really funny to think about? The fact that the Prophet of Regret can take several unshielded punches to the face from Master Chief before dying.
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I would personally chalk that up to game mechanics. San'Shyuum in the lore are said to be inferior to Humans durability wise.

Also, see here for John's fall in Halo 3, it clearly produces a crater/depression about a meter or so deep, and maybe up to eight wide eyeballing it. It looks like it impacted in soil, but I'm inclined to say it's mud or clay judging by the texture and the environment. It may be worth a calc attempt.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
I would personally chalk that up to game mechanics. San'Shyuum in the lore are said to be inferior to Humans durability wise.
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Still funny though.
VersusJunkie54 said:
Also, see here for John's fall in Halo 3, it clearly produces a crater/depression about a meter or so deep, and maybe up to eight wide eyeballing it. It looks like it impacted in soil, but I'm inclined to say it's mud or clay judging by the texture and the environment. It may be worth a calc attempt.
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I'm surprised this doesn't have a calc already since it's one of the most iconic feats in Halo.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Still funny though.

I'm surprised this doesn't have a calc already since it's one of the most iconic feats in Halo.
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I did a very rough, and crude calculation, a precise measurement could very widely, but assuming roughly it was a meter deep and eight ish meters wide, even fragmentation (it's clearly either violent frag, or pulverization) of soil nets 15 megajoules. So this is the ballpark we may be looking at here, something higher than his terminal velocity energy.

I always knew that depression was too large to be made by John's KE alone. Accurately measuring and calculating the depression will be a touch complex though.

I'll boot up Halo 3 really quick and get a better look.
 
Hopefully this link works, here's the crater in question.

I overestimated its width, but its height/depth is more or less the same. But it's seems more ellipsoid shaped. I am inclined to call this violent fragmentation. There are no large intact chunks of soil/mud/clay around the depression.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
Hopefully this link works, here's the crater in question.

I overestimated its width, but its height is more or less the same. But it's seems more ellipsoid shaped. I am inclined to call this violent fragmentation. There are no large intact chunks of soil/mud/clay around the depression.
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Does that mean it was pulverized?
 
I almost forgot, but this could possibly be relevant elsewhere. That Forerunner door, the one John held on to created this large crater and is intact. I think that may also be worth calculating, as it can scale to a weapon that can destroy/blow open one of those doors.
 
I Apologize for making a third comment in a row, but I think I have good reason for doing so, this is some important information, and more feats that need to be discussed. Plus, it would clutter my previous reply if I just edited it in.

It appears I was wrong about something again, according to the calculation page we do have data for Frag, violent frag, and pulverization of Titanium, so any calculations substituting with Steel are now obsolete and ought to be reworked. Unless I am again mistaken, and the calc page is obsolete/wrong or something.

@DarkDragonMedeus , your calcs subbing the previously unknown figures for Titanium with steel probably need to be reworked.

What I estimated from the Shade turrets earlier would actually be 550* 193330= 106.3315 megajoules, or 17.729 megajoules, Wall Level+ assuming a burst of 6 bolts were required to destroy the ODST pod.

I found some more feats for Forerunner monitors. This scan on this other forum seems to show a Monitor reduce a Sangheili, armor and all to ashes from the ankles up., then it follows up by punching a hole clean through a Hunter's Torso, likely charring the organic matter, and fragmenting the armor. Pay no mind to the ridiculous assumptions of dodging laser weapons on that thread, the scans are blatant aim dodging, it's beyond obvious. Though a poster on that forum makes some interesting points regarding the Wraith Mortar.

Interesting statement regarding Spartans, and surviving Wraith Mortars. It would be consistent with something in Gameplay (I know to apply game mechanics with great caution) where you can stand within a few meters of a Wraith mortar's impact.

"There was no anti-infantry attack quite as horrifying as a plasma strike, which unleashed such a searing blast that anything inside the impact zone was flash-incinerated, while anything nearby by was merely knocked down and immolated. John had seen direct hits reduce concrete bunkers to swirling clouds of white-hot dust and near-misses leave men standing on smoking pegs of charred bone.
...
The artillery blanket continued to intensify and creep across the jungle slope toward John, flooding the right side of his faceplate with blinding strobe light. The plasma rounds were the least of his concerns. The Mjolnir armor he and his Spartans wore would protect them from anything short of a direct hit. Besides, once the Covenant had flattened the jungle, Blue Team wouldn’t have to wait for the bridging vehicles to enter a predetermined firing zone.
...
Plasma rounds incinerated everything within a twenty-meter radius of the strike, with an even larger secondary damage ring. The concussion wave alone increased the mortality risk of a maneuvering infantry soldier tenfold. Linda would be okay in her Mjolnir armor unless she happened to run directly under an incoming strike—but in a barrage this heavy, the chances of that happening were high."
- Halo Oblivion
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There's another scan further down the thread where John is close to, or in the middle of a large explosion while driving a Ghost. If not John, it may be a durability feat for Ghosts.

Here Fred takes a Hunter's Fuel Rod cannon, which was stated could destroy a Phantom (we've seen this actually happen elsewhere at least twice). Though his shield breaks. I think this was a MkV feat. If I am remembering correctly, the other members of Blue Team in Ghosts of Onyx didn't have any opportunity to get a MkVI like John did.

"One Hunter eased its fuel-rod cannon around the edge of its impenetrable shields—green energized rounds glowing with deadly radiation—and fired.
Fred jumped from cover, his MJOLNIR armor ablaze as if it was burning phosphorus.
The Hunter hit him dead center in his chest, a blast that would have destroyed their dropship. His energy shields flared brighter, failed, and Fred crumpled to the floor, his armor smoking." - Halo Ghosts of Onyx
Click to expand...

Near the top of this page, a user actually calculates John's energy jumping from the bomb in Halo 2, and it actually makes sense given the timeframe, a solid 16.72 Megajoules, Wall Level+. I am liking how consistent this has turned out.

I will post more as I find them.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
It appears I was wrong about something again, according to the calculation page we do have data for Frag, violent frag, and pulverization of Titanium, so any calculations substituting with Steel are now obsolete and ought to be reworked. Unless I am again mistaken, and the calc page is obsolete/wrong or something.

@DarkDragonMedeus , your calcs subbing the previously unknown figures for Titanium with steel probably need to be reworked.

What I estimated from the Shade turrets earlier would actually be 550* 193330= 106.3315 megajoules, or 17.729 megajoules, Wall Level+ assuming a burst of 6 bolts were required to destroy the ODST pod.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, those were made before we had values for Titanium; thus used Steel as placeholder. But I agree with recalculating them using Titanium values. My hands are full atm, but I could do a simple recalc using the values preferably in a new blog. And I could update the general blog that lists all the values.
VersusJunkie54 said:
Interesting statement regarding Spartans, and surviving Wraith Mortars. It would be consistent with something in Gameplay (I know to apply game mechanics with great caution) where you can stand within a few meters of a Wraith mortar's impact.
Click to expand...
I do have another minor note, but most of the calculated values for Wraith Mortals also considers that it's another type of attack that is mostly heat on top of the fact that it's a big area of effect. Meaning small portion of it actually hits targets Spartan sized. And that thermal equilibrium is a common thing that can often serve as a cap for withstanding heat waves.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Oh yeah, those were made before we had values for Titanium; thus used Steel as placeholder. But I agree with recalculating them using Titanium values. My hands are full atm, but I could do a simple recalc using the values preferably in a new blog. And I could update the general blog that lists all the values.
Click to expand...
Fortunately the heavy lifting is already done, and the Steel figures only need to be swapped for the Titanium ones. I'll tally one right here.

First, and most exciting, the Spartan Laser.

4,868,091.61611 *760j/cc for violent fragmentation = 3.69974 Gigajoules, or 0.884 Tons, higher than the original value and still 8-C

Personally I think that this was pulverization. It doesn't really look like there are any debris after the door is destroyed. What may be interpreted as debris looks like matter that was kicked up at the edge of the explosion. It could even be bits of the Grunts who were in close proximity to the blast. The previous blast that destroyed the balcony looks the exact same as well. The destruction of the Balcony could be calculated, but I think the result would be the same anyway. That's just my opinion though.

I am not aware of any other feats for the Spartan Laser. If it weren't for Halo Legends, we'd probably have to scale it to the Spartans' durability, or above the SPINKR.

Pulverization would bring it up to 1.1285 tons, Building Level+ I think.

Moving on, we have a forgotten calc, one that tries to discern the power of Ghost/Banshee plasma cannons, as well as a plasma pistol.

It's obsolete, and probably made a mistake somewhere but it is worth looking at, and possibly revising if needed.

I do have another minor note, but most of the calculated values for Wraith Mortals also considers that it's another type of attack that is mostly heat on top of the fact that it's a big area of effect. Meaning small portion of it actually hits targets Spartan sized. And that thermal equilibrium is a common thing that can often serve as a cap for withstanding heat waves.
Click to expand...

If you mean that the 20 meter radius is the kill radius due to the heat, and overpressure you are correct. The Wraith does not vaporize everything within 20 meters, I think that was always just hyperbole.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
If you mean that the 20 meter radius is the kill radius due to the heat, and overpressure you are correct. The Wraith does not vaporize everything within 20 meters, I think that was always just hyperbole.
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I wasn't talking about the exact "20 meters" part, but the main thing it got it's calculation for was melting/slagging significant surfaces of 7 Wraiths in two shots until only their skeletons remained. Thermal Equilibrium didn't really have anything specific to do with the "20 meters," it's simply based on the specific temperature (Minus the initial temperature of the object) of the attack, multiplied by the mass and average heat capacity of the target for what value for one of the steps. And the other step also repeats the temperature value, but instead uses surface area and emissivity for calculators like this one. And after doing the two steps, the Joule value and Watt value respectively would indicate would have the lower result be treated as "Durability against heat".
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I wasn't talking about the exact "20 meters" part, but the main thing it got it's calculation for was melting/slagging significant surfaces of 7 Wraiths in two shots until only their skeletons remained. Thermal Equilibrium didn't really have anything specific to do with the "20 meters," it's simply based on the specific temperature (Minus the initial temperature of the object of the attack, multiplied by the mass and average heat capacity of the target for what value for one of the steps. And the other step also repeats the temperature value, but instead uses surface area and emissivity for calculators like this one. And after doing the two steps, the Joule value and Watt value respectively would indicate would have the lower result be treated as "Durability against heat".
Click to expand...
Gotcha, I misunderstood.
 
Alright, I have went through a bunch of novels and guidebooks. The guidebooks give similar speeds
But the novels only ever refer to the Beam Rifles as firing particle beams, which is where I'm guessing the "near-lightspeed" stuff is coming from. Unless I'm missing something, I guess beam rifles wouldn't be SoL. While they are called particle beams, ever speed rating ever given does not match the speed of an actual particle beam. Covenant ships do have lightspeed energy beams though, so that was a neat find.
“I never joke when it comes to navigation,” Captain Keyes said. “You will monitor the energy state of that ship. The instant you detect a buildup in their reactors, a spike of particle emissions—anything— you fire our emergency thrusters to throw off their aim.”
Click to expand...
Cortana nodded. “I’ll do my best,” she said. “Their weapon does travel at light speed. There won’t be much time to—”
Click to expand...
Halo: The Fall of Reach page 405
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Qawsedf234 said:
Alright, I have went through a bunch of novels and guidebooks. The guidebooks give similar speeds
But the novels only ever refer to the Beam Rifles as firing particle beams, which is where I'm guessing the "near-lightspeed" stuff is coming from. Unless I'm missing something, I guess beam rifles wouldn't be SoL. While they are called particle beams, ever speed rating ever given does not match the speed of an actual particle beam. Covenant ships do have lightspeed energy beams though, so that was a neat find.
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Actually, I believe it specifically mentioned particles accelerating at light speed; as in the atoms and molecules cycling at such velocities. Not so much the actual beam of plasma it fires. It's similar to how water molecules are regularly moving at 500m/s in room temperature, but squirt guns have that high muzzle velocity. Or those times when there was a study about "Coronal Mass Interjections" which the particles in plasma traveling at Sub-Relativistic, but that doesn't mean we should assume all plasma beams travel that fast. It would be a repeat of the Sub-Relativistic DOOM fodder to take the "Near Lightspeed" statements literally. I can guarantee Spartan Laser and the various Sentinel Beams are legit SoL lasers, but no one canonically eludes those outside of aim dodging.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, I believe it specifically mentioned particles accelerating at light speed; as in the atoms and molecules cycling at such velocities. Not so much the actual beam of plasma it fires. It's similar to how water molecules are regularly moving at 500m/s in room temperature, but squirt guns have that high muzzle velocity. Or those times when there was a study about "Coronal Mass Interjections" which the particles in plasma traveling at Sub-Relativistic, but that doesn't mean we should assume all plasma beams travel that fast. It would be a repeat of the Sub-Relativistic DOOM fodder to take the "Near Lightspeed" statements literally. I can guarantee Spartan Laser and the various Sentinel Beams are legit SoL lasers, but no one canonically eludes those outside of aim dodging.
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The only one who may be able to evade either of those weapons without it being a clear and blatant outlier would be The Didact, but we have no feats of Forerunners evading laser weapons. Otherwise you are correct, there's no reason to assume any other infantry weapon has Speed of Light attack speed.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
The only one who may be able to evade either of those weapons without it being a clear and blatant outlier would be The Didact, but we have no feats of Forerunners evading laser weapons. Otherwise you are correct, there's no reason to assume any other infantry weapon has Speed of Light attack speed.
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Speak for yourself; it’s really funny to think that

But yeah at best the Spartan Laser and maybe Sentinel Beam get SOL; the Promethean weapons are Hard Light and hard confirmed to be comparable to Beam Rifles in velocity
 
Hellbeast said:
Speak for yourself; it’s really funny to think that

But yeah at best the Spartan Laser and maybe Sentinel Beam get SOL; the Promethean weapons are Hard Light and hard confirmed to be comparable to Beam Rifles in velocity
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I want to believe this, but it needs some evidence. I could maybe see it happening for the Binary Rifle, and the Light Rifle, but not the other Promethean Weapons.
 
I did find something potentially interesting regarding the Binary Rifle though. It is implied that this weapon is basically second only to the Incineration cannon. The Halo Waypoint archive states that it can eliminate "nascent key minds", which without a doubt means a Flood Abomination/Juggernaut. It is also stated to fire Ionized particles as ammunition, but Idk if that can be interpreted as SoL attack speed. But I know for a fact no Spartan has ever legitimately evaded a Binary Rifle shot.

Now for the juicy part. "At the height of the Forerunners’ war against the virulent Flood, the Binary Rifle was wielded by flesh-and-blood Warrior-Servants and military constructs alike, employed to eliminate nascent keyminds and particularly dangerous parasite warforms with powerful hard light-jacketed antiparticle beams. Organic targets are often utterly destroyed with a single shot - burned and broken beyond any means of regeneration or medical reconstruction."

This is the scale for the Abomination compared to a Brute, as its an evolution of the Juggernaut,

Basically the Binary Rifle is not only a sniper, but a heavy weapon, though I think we already knew this. Assuming it took two shots to take down an Abomination, it could easily imply the Binary Rifle is High 8-C. The Juggernaut/Abomination is probably heavier than a Hunter, but it would be difficult to calculate its exact mass.
 
I believe "Ionized Particles" simple implies there is some limited degrees of plasma in it and possibly just a little bit of Anti-Matter (We do not know how much, so obviously we cannot assume crazy portions of it considering there are literally 6.02214758 * 10^23 particles in a mole statement would hold up even if there was less than 100 particles that are anti-matter but barely be anything AP wise).

I think High 8-C via ionization effect is legit though, but obviously wouldn't really downscale durability.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I believe "Ionized Particles" simple implies there is some limited degrees of plasma in it and possibly just a little bit of Anti-Matter (We do not know how much, so obviously we cannot assume crazy portions of it considering there are literally 6.02214758 * 10^23 particles in a mole statement would hold up even if there was less than 100 particles that are anti-matter but barely be anything AP wise).

I think High 8-C via ionization effect is legit though, but obviously wouldn't really downscale durability.
Click to expand...
I think the only things shown to tank that are Hunter shields, Knights and the Warden Eternal.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I think the only things shown to tank that are Hunter shields, Knights and the Warden Eternal.
Click to expand...
That me be true, but the decomposition effects anti-matter particles and ionized plasma still doesn't default to how much force it generates. It's also worth mentioning that Promethean weapons don't really do that much damage to things like vehicles, and some larger enemies take some limited damage only to get outright ionized by the last hit. While that could possibly be due to game mechanics, the other point is that there is a lack of evidence of them generating much overpressure compared to the vaporization/ionization effects.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I believe "Ionized Particles" simple implies there is some limited degrees of plasma in it and possibly just a little bit of Anti-Matter (We do not know how much, so obviously we cannot assume crazy portions of it considering there are literally 6.02214758 * 10^23 particles in a mole statement would hold up even if there was less than 100 particles that are anti-matter but barely be anything AP wise).

I think High 8-C via ionization effect is legit though, but obviously wouldn't really downscale durability.
Click to expand...
I agree, there's really nothing we can go off of to discern how much Anti-Matter the weapon fires.

High 8-C was eyeballing on my part, it could easily be wrong.

I don't think we have an ionization figure for human bodies though, we don't even have one for water, so Vaporization is all we have to work off of. Trying to calculate destroying a Flood Abomination with the Binary Rifle isn't going to be easy. I plan on making an attempt, but someone more skilled in calculation would have greater success.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
That me be true, but the decomposition effects anti-matter particles and ionized plasma still doesn't default to how much force it generates. It's also worth mentioning that Promethean weapons don't really do that much damage to things like vehicles, and some larger enemies take some limited damage only to get outright ionized by the last hit. While that could possibly be due to game mechanics, the other point is that there is a lack of evidence of them generating much overpressure compared to the vaporization/ionization effects.
Click to expand...
This is definitely game mechanics. Unless there are no alternatives in the actual lore, games, boosk, comics, etc, game mechanics should be the last thing we should think to apply. Game Mechanics also allow baseline Humans to survive melee strikes from Spartans, Brutes, and stand within mere meters of a Wraith mortar's impact.

Moreover, all of the Promethean Weapons condense their energy into linear beams or pellets. The Incineration cannon is the only one that really splashes like Covenant weapons.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
I don't think we have an ionization figure for human bodies though, we don't even have one for water, so Vaporization is all we have to work off of.
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Yeah, I remember commenting that someone would have to look up every single atom or molecule the human body is composed of, the various values of them individually, and how much of them are in the body for each. Some individuals probably do not even have sourced values for ionization calculations iirc; or at least not ones easily accessed on the internet.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, I remember commenting that someone would have to look up every single atom or molecule the human body is composed of, the various values of them individually, and how much of them are in the body for each. Some individuals probably do not even have sourced values for ionization calculations iirc; or at least not ones easily accessed on the internet.
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Yeah, most likely it literally isn't possible to figure out an ionization value, and why would anyone bother? Halo is unique for a weapon that behaves in between vaporization and atomization.

What about Ionization of Water? Would that be possible to work out or no?
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
Yeah, most likely it literally isn't possible to figure out an ionization value, and why would anyone bother? Halo is unique for a weapon that behaves in between vaporization and atomization.

What about Ionization of Water? Would that be possible to work out or no?
Click to expand...
Considering the human body is 60% water on average. How about Ionization of water for 60 percent of the mass, and the remaining 40 percent uses human body vaporization value. Actually that would be off since "Average human vaporization" includes water as the main component for why specific heat capacity is that high. So we could calculate both separately and pick which ever gives us the higher result.
 
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