JJK is abusing UES

[SunDaGamer]

Gojo says "maybe" meaning he isn't sure about it either.

This is is the relevant part of my post in regards to Sukuna's physicals and the fire arrow that M3X is referring to:

I really disagree with Sukuna's physicals scaling to the Fire Arrow. For one, Sukuna's punches and kick didn't do much damage to Mahoraga, his Dismantles dealt surface cuts and so did a close range Dismantle but we've seen Sukuna's casual Dismantles cleanly slice off the top of Jogo's head and turn people into cubes so Mahoraga's durability is comparable to Sukuna's physical AP at very the least then Mahoraga gets surface cuts from Malevolent Shrine amped Cleaves but a single Fire Arrow completely vaporizes him and a large portion of Shibuya.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Gojo says "maybe" meaning he isn't sure about it either.

I’m talkimg about the Mohoraga part.

 

[Damage3245]

Ok this is overall arguments from Previous thread regarding why Sukuna scales to Fire Arrow physically. If you don't mind review this. I would appreciate it if you guys can give some review why this is wrong.

I read through them and I can't see anything conclusively proving Sukuna's physicals scale to the fire arrow.

 

[Giannysmag]

I agree with the OP for now

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This is is the relevant part of my post in regards to Sukuna's physicals and the fire arrow that M3X is referring to:

I really disagree with Sukuna's physicals scaling to the Fire Arrow. For one, Sukuna's punches and kick didn't do much damage to Mahoraga, his Dismantles dealt surface cuts and so did a close range Dismantle but we've seen Sukuna's casual Dismantles cleanly slice off the top of Jogo's head and turn people into cubes so Mahoraga's durability is comparable to Sukuna's physical AP at very the least

Most of your arguments are debunked here..

Jujutsu Kaisen Honored Ones Upgrade

Hello all Recently two calculations got accepted that bump up the top tiers quite a bit One of them has already been applied but not to all the the profiles it should apply to Here they are https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arnoldstone18/JUJUTSU_KAISEN:_FIRE_ASF - 2.07 Megatons...

vsbattles.com

Jujutsu Kaisen Honored Ones Upgrade

Hello all Recently two calculations got accepted that bump up the top tiers quite a bit One of them has already been applied but not to all the the profiles it should apply to Here they are https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arnoldstone18/JUJUTSU_KAISEN:_FIRE_ASF - 2.07 Megatons...

vsbattles.com

Jujutsu Kaisen Honored Ones Upgrade

Hello all Recently two calculations got accepted that bump up the top tiers quite a bit One of them has already been applied but not to all the the profiles it should apply to Here they are https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arnoldstone18/JUJUTSU_KAISEN:_FIRE_ASF - 2.07 Megatons...

vsbattles.com

Jujutsu Kaisen Honored Ones Upgrade

Hello all Recently two calculations got accepted that bump up the top tiers quite a bit One of them has already been applied but not to all the the profiles it should apply to Here they are https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arnoldstone18/JUJUTSU_KAISEN:_FIRE_ASF - 2.07 Megatons...

vsbattles.com

then Mahoraga gets surface cuts from Malevolent Shrine amped Cleaves

It was never stated as cleave. Sukuna even mentioned that cleave can one shot Mahogara. He clearly mentioned that attack was from Dismantle. Also Mahogara blade was even destroyed in that domain clash

but a single Fire Arrow completely vaporizes him and a large portion of Shibuya.

This is also wrong Even Jogo Tanked Fire arrow some time. Its AP can be adjusted.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Discussion rule to cap the verse below Massively Hypersonic
White's thread on powers and abilities
Cursed Energy being able to buff speed

Yeah, as I said it's two CRTs and a Staff Thread. Staff Threads aren't included in the limitation. Here's the rule:

Up to three active content revision threads can be open for any verse. If three active content revision threads are in progress, the community must conclude one before creating a new one.

• Marvel Comics and DC Comics are exempt from this rule to accommodate their continuous flow of large amounts of story material. Thus, they may have a maximum of six active threads open simultaneously. This exception also applies to extremely popular verses like Dragon Ball, to be granted on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Tatsumi504]

The main arguments from the last thread to counter the above points are Sukuna going easy against Mahoraga as he usually toys with his opponents, Mahoraga already adapting to the slashes.

It was never stated as cleave.

Can't say this is true cause prior to this Sukuna states his dismantle would target everything in that area while cleave will be used for anything with cursed energy.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The main arguments from the last thread to counter the above points are Sukuna going easy against Mahoraga as he usually toys with his opponents, Mahoraga already adapting to the slashes.

Yeah

Can't say this is true cause prior to this Sukuna states his dismantle would target everything in that area while cleave will be used for anything with cursed energy.

No he clearly mentioned it as dismantle. I know the mechanism of the domain but Sukuna mentioned it as Dismantle. Also according to Sukuna Cleave can neg Mahogara. If domain attacked it with Cleave he would already have erased it out of existence.
https://img.spoilerhat.com/img/?url=https://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/27861/119.0/compressed/o007.jpg

 

[KingTempest]

Yall just not gonna tackle the OP but just the side points? Crazy

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

How many fingers was sukuna here again? Like 8 or 9? I agree that 9-finger sukuna shouldn't scale but what about 15 finger sukuna?

 

[Giannysmag]

How many fingers was sukuna here again? Like 8 or 9? I agree that 9-finger sukuna shouldn't scale but what about 15 finger sukuna?

He was at 15 fingers

 

[Tatsumi504]

Yeah

No he clearly mentioned it as dismantle. I know the mechanism of the domain but Sukuna mentioned it as Dismantle. Also according to Sukuna Cleave can neg Mahogara. If domain attacked it with Cleave he would already have erased if out of existence.
https://img.spoilerhat.com/img/?url=https://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/27861/119.0/compressed/o007.jpg

You're confusing what Sukuna is referring to. Prior to using malevolent shrine he hadn't used cleave against Mahoraga. While using the domain though, Mahoraga is attacked with cleave but sukuna says if it adapted to slashing attacks in general and not specifically dismantle, cleave won't be enough to destroy it.

Yall just not gonna tackle the OP but just the side points? Crazy

This is kinda relevant isn't it? I'm only interested in the aspect pertaining to JJK, anything about revising the UES page is beyond me

 

[SunDaGamer]

Most of your arguments are debunked here..

Spoiler: Debunking those debunks

He didn't struggle to damage them though? He easily withstood a sword slash directly to his arm, then proceeded to easily cut into Mahoraga's skin and caused bleeding, putting Mahoraga on his feet in pain:

The sword slash that Sukuna withstood was from a sword enveloped in positive energy, when the blade was instead imbued with cursed energy, it sent Sukuna flying outside of the Curtain.

Then it adapted to be able to deflect the attack. So Sukuna instead used the attack while touching him, and it left a large gash on his front side and laid him out until he regenerated from the wound:

Sukuna's casual Dismantles can cleanly slice off body parts of Special Grade Curses and turn people into cubes yet Mahoraga only suffers surface cuts from Dismantle indicating his durability is great enough to contend with Sukuna's physicals as Sukuna's slashes deal piercing damage and Cursed Techniques have higher output than physicals.

If it is, I don't think it'd be by any relevant margin. Cursed Techniques work by applying Cursed Energy like electricity into an appliance. The same Cursed Energy can also just instead be used for raw physical attacks as demonstrated by Gojo:

The same "electricity" (Cursed Energy) that can be applied to Electronics (Cursed Techniques) can be applied to physical attacks. Basically, if Dismantle cut through a building, Sukuna applied enough Cursed Energy to supply a building cutting attack. He would thus then be able to apply that same energy to his punches/kicks.

Of course, in the case of techniques that completely ignore durability and have no way to be calc'd (I.e. Idle Transfiguration), then yeah, it'd be hard to translate that to raw AP. But for something simple like a cutting attack, it should be more than fine. Same for the fire arrow.

This is quite literally the issue this CRT is tackling (assuming special techniques scale to physicals due to UES, which kind of defeats the point of using a special technique to bring out power), in fact we're told in the series that Ryu is the only character who can output the same amount of Cursed Energy regardless of if he is using his Cursed Technique.

While testing Mahoraga's capabilities, he left wounds deep enough to cause Mahoraga to gush blood and fall onto the ground in pain (Temporarily incapacitated) until he regenerated and got back up. And even after adapting to the cuts and becoming more resistant to it, Domain Expansions cuts managed to shatter the blades on his hands. Then when he got serious about finishing Mahoraga off, he used the flame arrow. Just seems like he wasn't intended to finish him off until after testing his adaptation.

This doesn't change the fact that Sukuna's casual Dismantles can completely slice through Special Grade Curses meanwhile Sukuna empowered his Dismantles more against Mahoraga as seen by him using the hand signs of his technique (which canonically make techniques stronger) yet it only deals surface cuts, that alone shows that Mahoraga's durability is at least somewhere near the ballpark of Sukuna's physicals.

To me it seemed quite clear he was aware it possessed some talent that would be useful for Sukuna later. This had been foreshadowed with him believing Fushiguro could beat a finger-bearer and how it was later used against Gojo who's techniques he was aware of.

He even said "If I'm understanding this correctly, it'll stand up". Only to be proven right and ecstatic when his assumption was correct. Mahoraga had been showing to adapt since the beginning of the fight too as noted by White above.

KingTempest has already debunked this in the post after this on the thread.

It was never stated as cleave. Sukuna even mentioned that cleave can one shot Mahogara. He clearly mentioned that attack was from Dismantle. Also Mahogara blade was even destroyed in that domain clash

"For anything with cursed energy within range - Cleave. For inanimate objects - Dismantle"

This is also wrong Even Jogo Tanked Fire arrow some time. Its AP can be adjusted.

He didn't tank that, he was immediately sent to the Afterlife () despite seemingly clashing against the arrow with his own attack and Jogo is a special grade cursed spirit born from fear of the Earth and natural disasters related to it such as volcanoes, him having Fire resistance is a no-brainer and even with that, Jogo's body was instantly charred.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

He was at 15 fingers

he was at 15, how did I **** up that badly at remembering lmao

 

[KLOL506]

It all comes down to this.

1. Prove that the attacks (Supernatural and physical) are using the same energy source and a similar amount of energy from said energy source (The last part is doubly important otherwise it ain't a UES)

1. Prove that a higher usage of said energy source amplifies attacks (Supernatural and physical) at the same rate

Ultimate Attacks be damned.

 

[Arkenis]

How many fingers was sukuna here again? Like 8 or 9? I agree that 9-finger sukuna shouldn't scale but what about 15 finger sukuna?

15 is what fought Maho

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

15 is what fought Maho

yeah, i remembered, i was way off

 

[Arkenis]

This is also wrong Even Jogo Tanked Fire arrow some time. Its AP can be adjusted.

Tanked is just wrong. He did Jogo worse than Jogo did to Naobito.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

You know, for an attack thats supposed to be above his regular arsenal, he sure doesn't use it a lot

 

[Arkenis]

You know, for an attack thats supposed to be above his regular arsenal, he sure doesn't use it a lot

Yeah its usally never needed.

 

[BadSystems]

You know, for an attack thats supposed to be above his regular arsenal, he sure doesn't use it a lot

It was never really useful, except maybe vs Gojo when Gojo's Infinity was disabled, but I believe he was using the Ten Shadows at the time so he couldn't. Might be wrong about that one.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

It all comes down to this.

1. Prove that the attacks (Supernatural and physical) are using the same energy source and a similar amount of energy from said energy source (The last part is doubly important otherwise it ain't a UES)
2. Prove that a higher usage of said energy source amplifies attacks (Supernatural and physical) at the same rate

Ultimate Attacks be damned.

This.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I'm not sure exactly what the cut off or qualifier is for the listed rating above, but CE does indeed increase physical abilities/speed. furthermore, Panda utilized his cursed energy aura to block an attack from Mechamaru that pierced right through his base durability earlier. When Mechamaru charges his albatross attack, Panda also coats himself in a stronger aura in order to survive the blast before going Ape. I use this early example because it's one of the times were are actually shown aura reinforcement explicitly.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm not sure exactly what the cut off or qualifier is for the listed rating above, but CE does indeed increase physical abilities/speed. furthermore, Panda utilized his cursed energy aura to block an attack from Mechamaru that pierced right through his base durability earlier. When Mechamaru charges his albatross attack, Panda also coats himself in a stronger aura in order to survive the blast before going Ape. I use this early example because it's one of the times were are actually shown aura reinforcement explicitly.

Nobody disagrees that they enhance their physicals with CE

It's just that there's absolutely no proof that they use similar amounts of energy in both their CT and their CE reinforcement

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Sukuna's physicals attacks does not show the same level of power to the Fire Arrow, heck, you can even argue a far lower rating giving how his own feats of physicals attacks are fodder

Huh? Fire arrow was enhanced with his cursed energy.

Sukuna was also at the epicenter of his attack protecting himself with cursed energy so he clearly uses the same amount of CE to defend and attack when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[KingTempest]

Huh? Fire arrow was enhanced with his cursed energy.

Means nothing

Sukuna was also at the epicenter of his attack protecting himself with cursed energy so he clearly uses the same amount of CE to defend and attack when the opportunity presents itself.

For him to be at the epicenter he has to get hit by it

The opportunity doesn't present itself to showcase that at all

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Nobody disagrees that they enhance their physicals with CE

It's just that there's absolutely no proof that they use similar amounts of energy in both their CT and their CE reinforcement

Ultra cannon and Albatross were Mechamaru's best attacks, and Mechamaru is a semi-grade 1 heavenly restriction user who has pretty beefy CE. Panda survived his hits with basic Ren. Unless Panda's ren is > Mechamaru's CE attacks, I'd say it's pretty evident he had to match the CE to not die there.

Side Note: How is nen treated? I'd say the relationship between Nen and CE, and Hatsu and CT is relatively portrayed similar, especially with Todo's whole spiel to Yuji about how CE flows to different parts of the body in different amounts. Hakari was also able to make a binding vow to send his arm reinforcement energy to the rest of his body and survive Kashimo's steam explosion.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Means nothing

For him to be at the epicenter he has to get hit by it

The opportunity doesn't present itself to showcase that at all

Put this thread on hold until next week anime might give better POV.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

For him to be at the epicenter he has to get hit by it

No you don't have to get hit. Sukuna was virtually in the middle of that explosion. Literally 6 feet away if not arms length of Mahoraga.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It all comes down to this.

1. Prove that the attacks (Supernatural and physical) are using the same energy source and a similar amount of energy from said energy source (The last part is doubly important otherwise it ain't a UES)
2. Prove that a higher usage of said energy source amplifies attacks (Supernatural and physical) at the same rate

Ultimate Attacks be damned.

I hope this helps. It's clearly mentioned Sukuna can make up for the CT(Ten shadows) output with his CE control & Output

 

[KingTempest]

No you don't have to get hit. Sukuna was virtually in the middle of that explosion. Literally 6 feet away if not arms length of Mahoraga.

You know being 6 feet away can mean you scale to like a tenth of an explosion in value right?

Ultra cannon and Albatross were Mechamaru's best attacks, and Mechamaru is a semi-grade 1 heavenly restriction user who has pretty beefy CE. Panda survived his hits with basic Ren. Unless Panda's ren is > Mechamaru's CE attacks, I'd say it's pretty evident he had to match the CE to not die there.

Or maybe he just withstands the small fraction of the attack that was gonna hit Nobara like he said

Put this thread on hold until next week anime might give better POV.

If he not getting hit by the move he don't scale to it, simple

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Or maybe he just withstands the small fraction of the attack that was gonna hit Nobara like he said

Pressing "X" for doubt. The attack was conicular and consumed Panda's whole body before exploding into a large flame column all around Panda. No way Panda is taking that if he can't reinforce his physicals to a relative level.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Huh? Fire arrow was enhanced with his cursed energy.

Sukuna was also at the epicenter of his attack protecting himself with cursed energy so he clearly uses the same amount of CE to defend and attack when the opportunity presents itself.

No you don't have to get hit. Sukuna was virtually in the middle of that explosion. Literally 6 feet away if not arms length of Mahoraga.

I really disagree with Sukuna's physicals scaling to the Fire Arrow. For one, Sukuna's punches and kick didn't do much damage to Mahoraga, his Dismantles dealt surface cuts and so did a close range Dismantle but we've seen Sukuna's casual Dismantles cleanly slice off the top of Jogo's head and turn people into cubes so Mahoraga's durability is comparable to Sukuna's physical AP at very the least then Mahoraga gets surface cuts from Malevolent Shrine amped Cleaves but a single Fire Arrow completely vaporizes him and a large portion of Shibuya.

Sukuna's durability would also have to downscale from the value obtained by inverse square law due to attacks made of cursed energy harming the user less as seen with Gojo taking less damage than Sukuna from Unlimited Hollow Purple

That being said, maybe this calc can be used to get sukuna's durability which will scale to the god tiers

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:powerToScale/Jujutsu_Kaisen:_Sukuna_Survives_Explosion

Sukuna surviving the explosion is 7-C and the argument that "it's his CE so it scales to his physicals because UES" is literally the issue this CRT is tackling

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Theres a different output in CT. Some scale to the user, others not

Its not that hard

 

[SunDaGamer]

Theres a different output in CT. Some scale to the user, others not

Its not that hard

In fact, Ryu is noted as the only sorcerer who can output the same amount of power regardless of if he is using his Cursed Technique

 

[SunDaGamer]

Pressing "X" for doubt. The attack was conicular and consumed Panda's whole body before exploding into a large flame column all around Panda. No way Panda is taking that if he can't reinforce his physicals to a relative level.

Didn't taking that attack push Panda to his limit causing him to switch to his Gorilla core

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Didn't taking that attack push Panda to his limit causing him to switch to his Gorilla core

Not for ultra canon. During albatross Panda took the initial cone in base and switched sometime afterward during the explosion.

 

[KingTempest]

Pressing "X" for doubt. The attack was conicular and consumed Panda's whole body before exploding into a large flame column all around Panda. No way Panda is taking that if he can't reinforce his physicals to a relative level.

Doesn't mean much, it just means the attack range is... bigger than Panda

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Doesn't mean much, it just means the attack range is... bigger than Panda

It means he took a significant portion of the concentrated blast in addition to a good bit of exposure to the resultant explosion after engulfing him. If is ability to amp his dura is no where near the ballpark of one of the best AP feats for mid tiers, he would have been crisped.

 

[KingTempest]

That... doesn't mean anything for the convo at hand?

How does that prove ppl use similar amounts of energy for CTs as Reinforcement?