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J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Revision

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VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Dream theory is always present in Matteis Cosmology. All the stories I referenced is him being the main writer or the scriptwriter.
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Am I understanding correctly that you only give 1-B dream hierarchy? If we have infinite dimensions, and it is even known that they are meant to be spatial, and the universes themselves are just holograms of dreams, representing an endless chain of dreams that are ephemeral in relation to each other, then is it possible to give a higher level for this?
 
Brahmatman said:
Am I understanding correctly that you only give 1-B dream hierarchy?
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No, when I mentioned that I was saying at bare minimum if High 1-B didn't get accepted.
Brahmatman said:
If we have infinite dimensions, and it is even known that they are meant to be spatial, and the universes themselves are just holograms of dreams, representing an endless chain of dreams that are ephemeral in relation to each other, then is it possible to give a higher level for this?
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I think we can even go for High 1-A because the set quantity is unquantifiable. However, I don't think that will go well, and I hope Ultima's proposal gets accepted because I don't think mathematics should be considered quality or be the basis of what makes a verse higher in tier.
 
Brahmatman said:
Am I understanding correctly that you only give 1-B dream hierarchy? If we have infinite dimensions, and it is even known that they are meant to be spatial, and the universes themselves are just holograms of dreams, representing an endless chain of dreams that are ephemeral in relation to each other, then is it possible to give a higher level for this?
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Goofy has explained more specifically about the infinite number of hierarchy dreams and he has also provided a conclusion on page 1.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Scaling:

Creation: High 1-B
There are infinite universes to which each reality is divided into levels and exists across a sort of Nexus called the Consciousness of God. The Dream contains sequences of dreams that become more real and transcend the previous to invoke a hierarchy of infinite between each plane/world in the Dream.

Which fits this standard:

The whole idea fits it perfectly. There are infinite dimensions, there is an endless hierarchy with each one level surpassing the previous one into insignificance.

Pralaya: Low 1-A
An aspect of God and the entire ocean of nothing. Completely transcends and is separated from Creation and it's an endless hierarchy. Transcends Maya(Creation), Creator(Aspect of God), and beyond all hierarchies of dreams(Limitless Planes).

Outside any extension of an infinite hierarchy and its varying degrees. No amount of Creation can fill the infinite unmanifest Void.

God: 1-A
God surpasses and transcends everything even Pralaya who is no more an illusion as is an atom. All of them combined together in any degree are fictitious and exist in his mind. His original state is the perfection of power, knowledge, and bliss and the one true soul reality.

To how Pralaya transcends Creation so does God to both her and Creation.
Click to expand...
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
No, when I mentioned that I was saying at bare minimum if High 1-B didn't get accepted.
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As a replacement if one is not accepted. It sounds good

VeryGoofyToddler said:
I think we can even go for High 1-A because the set quantity is unquantifiable. However, I don't think that will go well, and I hope Ultima's proposal gets accepted because I don't think mathematics should be considered quality or be the basis of what makes a verse higher in tier.
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If a fictional universe doesn't use these concepts and techniques, then I don't see why it needs to be taken into account. Thus, Swamp Thing can be assigned level 0 for existing outside of mathematics
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Matteis Inspiration:

Matteis had many spiritual journeys and growth through his lifetime. More specifically he went to India and met the spiritual master called “Meher Baba” who changed his life and his views on things. This is heavily known to be the case since most of his “God” characters are designed after the man.

Meher Baba devoted his life after talking to an old lady in silence and has for over 40+ years. The biggest inspiration that Matteis took is his story called “God’s Speak” which pinpointed the origin of Creation and how it came to be. As such what we learn is that everything we see within Creation is nothing more than a dream or a false illusion of the true reality that is God and simply him alone.
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All of this is fine, interesting too.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Echelons of Wordings:
In case, you're confused with wording:
  • worlds = universes, realities
  • dimensions = parallel realities
  • Dimension = spatial dimensions
  • The Universe = All Creation, all of Existence, The Dream, Creation, Reality, Illusion
Click to expand...
Yeah, these terms tend to be context dependent.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Creation Origin:
The origin of Creation started with the OM point which is used interchangeably with the Creation point. Where God springs his first urge of consciousness to question who he is. (Seekers into the Mystery Vol.1 #9)

The endless ocean of nothing or also known as the Sea of Brahma predates everything which again is nothing that expanded ad infinitium is a latent of Everything. This is why the entire Ocean is still God and when he first sprang brought about endless waves of light that turned the Ocean of nothing into the Ocean of love. (Seekers into the Mystery Vol.1 #9)

Thus Creation sprang forth from God own very breath. When God births Oneness that splits into duality forming Chaos and Order to represent all the forms of duality. Then came an explosion of not power, but of his love which brought about all Creation from the animals, universes, and all forms of life. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #6)
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This is fine, creation in Seekers into the Mystery and in Doctor Fate are the same which shows DeMatteis' underlying philosophy within his works.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Yuga Cycle:
Matteis heavily drew inspiration from Hindu belief thus referring to how the cycle of Creation comes from the Hindu Yuga Cycle. (Doctor Fate Vol.1 #1)
  1. First Yuga(Satya) - The first age is perfection—Order sustained by the shadow of Chaos. Perfection for 1,128,000 years!
  2. Second Yuga(Treta) - The Second Yuga still finds man in harmony, the Universe in balance but something—unwanted—emerges—something…wrong.
  3. Third Yuga(Dwapara)- In the Third Yuga, Chaos influence is finally felt. It rises up to challenge Order. And suffering spreads its wings and flies across the Cosmos. And the Worm if madness began to burrow through men's minds. And so it remains—for another 864,000 years.
  4. Fourth Yuga(Kali) - Then comes the Kali Yuga…The Fourth and Final Age—when Chaos rises triumphant when the forces of Destruction grow in fury—when the Universe dissolves in the fire.
This cycle is meant to bring about rebirth after death as this happened countless amounts of times in the Night of Brahma when the Creator goes to sleep. When the Mahapralaya eats at Creation it dissolves into fire with Kali Yuga and Pralaya eating it all after the reign of Chaos ends. As a metaphor, Creation springs forth like a Lotus burning birth but over time shrinks and shrivels until it eats itself from the inside. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #3)

After the cycle of death Creation begets upon a new beginning, a new cycle an age of men beyond the previous. This Golden Age(Shamaballa) is meant to be beyond the opposite and control of Chaos or Order while still being insignificant to the vast Sea of Eternity. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #10)
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This is fine.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Material Plane(Gross):
The first layer of the Dream is in the Gross plane where the most simple idea is material. Thus the Soul has a body to venture through things physically and with their five senses. Which is the first skin of reality as things such as the spiritual plane are next and everything here is the the the first life that the Soul takes. (Spectre Vol.4 #18). This is where the Soul begins its journey whether in rebirth or recreation, where one must assume mortal form. (Legends of the DC Universe Vol.1 #34)
Larfleeze story later expresses that dimension is used interchangeable with worlds. However, do note this was specifically within this story as the rest of the time, dimension is used interchangeably with higher reality, since the Universe is infinite and layered, each level has a specific dimensionality. Thus the Gross could reach up to twelve dimensions. God himself exist within any level of the Dream as he tries to wake us up from the God with everything as an expression of him, no matter the detail. Most Angels and the world above of reality and those planes transcends each other. The Gross is infinite but limited in its sense, that one plane is simply a fiction to another, one must cut through these layers or mask of reality to find God. (Green Lantern: Willworld Vol.1 #1). There are many planes across Creation that one must go through even Lord Indra of Fourth Heaven is nowhere near the final.

Funny enough, sometimes parallel world are world beyond material and places beyond limitation and sometimes new ones replaced by Maya. As such God can take you through every depth of any world as worlds are used interchangeably with planes as well. (Seekers into the Mystery Vol.1 #15)
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"Across parrallel worlds and infinite dimensions" probably needs some further argumentation to prove it refers to spatial dimensions.

The place of "infinite doorways to infinite universes" and "dimensional skies sprialling onto infinity" which Dead Man was flying through does seem to imply higher-dimensionalities.

The fact that there are many, many planes and layers of creation or dream (existence), with the "mundane" layer being the most simple and then one can progress onto counterless higher and more complex layers with creation being the dream of God in the end is inarguable. The difficulty is proving the "gaps" between layers, the quantitive or qualititive superiorities which corresponds to VSB's system but higher layers of the dream, higher planes, are obviously vastly superior to lower ones in both qualititive and quantitive terms.

I think what @Robo432343 posted regarding QS from the Seekers of the Mystery combined with this proves the qualitative superiority as you transcend into higher planes.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Subtle Plane:

Some minor places goes beyond just what material can bring from our involution in the Gross Plane. Like souls wondering where they will end up in the Subtle places. A place of in between with the balance of karma with souls possessing possibilities of going on to the next. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 Annual #1)

Some things subtle are much more than physical. That some enemies of illusions keep coming back thanks to that. (Adventures of Superman Vol.1 #586)
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This is fine.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Higher Planes(Mental and Beyond):

There are planes above the world we live in physically. That when a Soul lives it’s next life, it transcends beyond just the material plane as such Heaven. Some beings through their psyche can descend upon levels into worlds, heavens, et cetera. Each form in each level will be transcended until all endless forms are transcended. (Supergirl: Wings Vol.1 #1). Angels are thoughts and forms of the God that could be perceived through the veils and all levels
of Creation. (Green Lantern: Willworlds Vol.1 #1)

With each being in higher reality has a state of existence, of consciousness where even concepts like dimensions no longer apply, only levels of existence at that point. Remember the entire concept of dimension whether spatial or temporal or any levels of infinite limited to the aliens much less the Dreamer himself, who is us. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #24). All this is connected to the World Tree. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #38).
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This is fine.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Creation(Maya/Dream):

Maya is the Hindu goddess of Illusion as the one illusion behind True Reality. She comes in many forms from all beliefs and can be seen as the Devil's figure in some Western beliefs. If God is the projectionist behind the Cinema then Maya is every version of the Movie as she is the Movie as well. She is the Shadow of God’s Light when he brought forth everything as her flesh gave substance to everything in the Dream. (Seekers into the Mystery Vol.1 #13)
Pralaya(Illusion/Sea of Brahma):

Before Creation and the Creator was only a sea. This metaphorical sea had many names to describe an infinite ocean of nothing before God manifested his consciousness. Apparently, Matteis told me she transcended Maya who is the Dream/Creation. This could mean that “Illusion” is the entire mind of God since he claims even Pralaya/Void is contained by God and is his unconsciousness. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #39)

God:

Whatever you may call him; God, Primal Ocean, Smile behind the Universe, the Magician, Mother, Father, etc…..He is the one God beyond opposite and is all opposite where everything comes from his love.
Click to expand...
This is fine.
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Scaling:

Creation: High 1-B
There are infinite universes to which each reality is divided into levels and exists across a sort of Nexus called the Consciousness of God. The Dream contains sequences of dreams that become more real and transcend the previous to invoke a hierarchy of infinite between each plane/world in the Dream.

Which fits this standard:
The whole idea fits it perfectly. There are infinite dimensions, there is an endless hierarchy with each one level surpassing the previous one into insignificance.

Pralaya: Low 1-A
An aspect of God and the entire ocean of nothing. Completely transcends and is separated from Creation and it's an endless hierarchy. Transcends Maya(Creation), Creator(Aspect of God), and beyond all hierarchies of dreams(Limitless Planes).
Outside any extension of an infinite hierarchy and its varying degrees. No amount of Creation can fill the infinite unmanifest Void.

God: 1-A
God surpasses and transcends everything even Pralaya who is no more an illusion as is an atom. All of them combined together in any degree are fictitious and exist in his mind. His original state is the perfection of power, knowledge, and bliss and the one true soul reality.
To how Pralaya transcends Creation so does God to both her and Creation
Click to expand...
I agree with this, especially combined with Robo's post about QS.

I should add though maybe you could find a way to add DeMatteis' collective unconciousness here? Perhaps the CU is in a lower part of the dream than God.
 
EmperorRorepmeThree said:
I should add though maybe you could find a way to add DeMatteis' collective unconciousness here? Perhaps the CU is in a lower part of the dream than God.
Click to expand...
It's there below the Kingdom of Now in the Higher Planes section. Where exactly it is still unknown since it's very much of the mind and everything technically is of the mind. It could be as high or as low as possible but definitely beyond Material.

Edit: Oh, you mean tiering. I really couldn't tell, but I think Material can reach as high as 1-B. So I would argue, it's somewhere in the 1-B range.
 
Also, we should readd the Divine Presence as a profile. Perhaps just “God.”

We will also use the old Pralaya keys where her avatar is High 1-B because she scales to Creation and literally ate it in its entirety. While her true form which is the metaphorical Sea of Brahma/Mahapralaya is Low 1-A.
 
Last edited:
Elizio33 said:
At least the void and anyone who scale to it in Vertigo should be likely 1-A, but this is a case for another thread.
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Correct, I'll soon make a thread on it.

vsbattles.com

Lucifer's Creation “infinite dimension”

So I was looking over the revision project when something popped into my mind. Lucifer’s Creation might have infinite dimensions. As we know Mike Carey explicitly states that he sees Universe and Multiverse as synonymous to describe an all-encompassing Creation. Highlighting that the Universe...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

^I need to update this lol.
 
With Grant, I have to go with the uncanny route with the Grand Unified Theory and honestly, I feel the mods will disclose it.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
So you're saying DeMattis and Vertigo will be 1-A while Crisis will be 1-B?
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The former, yes. The latter, no. Since it's merged, it's best we keep it at 1-C. However, I do request you guys try to separate Grant from the other three. If you will his thing can range from maybe 1-B to baseline 1-A with the highest interpretation.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The former, yes. The latter, no. Since it's merged, it's best we keep it at 1-C. However, I do request you guys try to separate Grant from the other three. If you will his thing can range from maybe 1-B to baseline 1-A with the highest interpretation.
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Considering grant Morrison and is animal man comics should be treated differently from Snyder as what has been established there is different from the the other works
 
Westcoast5005 said:
Considering grant Morrison and is animal man comics should be treated differently from Snyder as what has been established there is different from the the other works
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Yes, but that will be left to be discussed on a different topic. This is just whether you agree with my proposal for Matteis Cosmology.
 
Well I agree. Especially because of his other stories that he did for example marvel manthing and divine creator it just makes sense.
 
To make it very short, I think a separate Morrison cosmology is possible but only with the following material: Animal Man, JLA, Doom Patrol, Action Comics...

Final Crisis, Multiversity, Green Lantern (2019) should stay in the Crisis Cosmology since the very basis of Scott Snyder and Joshua Williamson's works were primarily based on what Morrison established since Final Crisis and Multiversity. It wouldn't make sense to not add them.

Back on the topic now.
 
I agree with most of the thread. However, I disagree with the inclusion of Seekers into the Mystery and The Last One. While DeMatteis is the writer for them, they're his creator owned comics and aren't apart of DC comics. It doesn't really matter if he treats God the same in them, that doesn't change that we don't composite creator owned stuff with the main verse comics. It's why Unwritten by Carey and Murder Mysteries by Gaiman can't be used for upgrades. It's also why Seekers into the Mystery already has its own page separated from DC.

So, I agree with the thread but disagree with adding and using scans from DeMatteis creator owned stuff into his DC Cosmology.
 
Asterotheology said:
I agree with most of the thread. However, I disagree with the inclusion of Seekers into the Mystery and The Last One. While DeMatteis is the writer for them, they're his creator owned comics and aren't apart of DC comics. It doesn't really matter if he treats God the same in them, that doesn't change that we don't composite creator owned stuff with the main verse comics. It's why Unwritten by Carey and Murder Mysteries by Gaiman can't be used for upgrades. It's also why Seekers into the Mystery already has its own page separated from DC.

So, I agree with the thread but disagree with adding and using scans from DeMatteis creator owned stuff into his DC Cosmology.
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I thought of this but unlike the other creators owned story. It perfectly blends into his works and still works on the Dream Theory. While Unwritten and Murder Mystery goes against whatever was of the Sandman Universe.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I thought of this but unlike the other creators owned story. It perfectly blends into his works and still works on the Dream Theory. While Unwritten and Murder Mystery goes against whatever was of the Sandman Universe.
Click to expand...
While the similarities are there, it's still not a part of DC. It being creator owned is the main factor. I suppose you can ask Ant, Deagonx or any other staff if they'll make an exception to the rule(?) for it.
 
Robo432343 said:
Here is more evidence of QS (totally not copy pasted)
At the beginning of the story, Lucas experienced dreams, reminiscent to his past, constantly. This certain point of events is part of the premise of the story. These dreams were at first insubstantial, but later on, it reveal to held impact in the story. These dreams is actually layered, with dreams being qualitatively superior than the last.
Issue # 13, P. 12
“The Magician's the one who's interested in ripping the truth out of you... In stripping the layers of dreams and dragging you into a light that's so bright--it will blind you and burn you alive.„

It is further reiterated with another definition such as it being called levels of existence.
Issue # 13, P. 10
“You've seen for yourself, these past weeks there are levels of existence far beyond what you've know.„

Dreams aren't merely simple "dreams", higher dreams can replace what is reality and become more real to it, and there would be another higher dream above it, as shown here; Dreams was able to replace reality, when it was only being viewed as fiction, and afterwards another one can ascend to another higher dream if allowed by God
1
2
3
4
5
6
7

This should explicate and elucidate the fact that the difference between the dreams are qualitatively superior. These dreams are, of course, still part of Maya. As she represent all things in creation. The size of Dreams aren't really specified or stated, however it can contain uncountable universes. This should scale to all other dreams, as there's no invalidations nor statements against it, there's actually more supporting it than against it.
Issue # 10, P. 13
“Then the dreams began: naked, I drift through uncountable universes, falling through the heart of exploding stars. Goddesses of unspeakable beauty would press me against their breasts, gods of terrible power would pierce me with their swords.„

Beyond these layers of dreams, or to be exact; beyond Maya, would be the the True Reality; God. God is the being that emanated these dreams.
Issue # 10, P. 15
“He had come. The singer whose song seduced my heart. The poet whose words brought forth the world. The Reality from which emanated all my cherished dreams. And He flew with me across eternity, danced with me down into time's timeless depth. Silently he gave his love and silently I accept it.„
This is further supported the fact that stripping the layers of dreams would result of being absorbed into God's existence.
Issue # 13, P. 12
“The Magician's the one who's interested in ripping the truth out of you... In stripping the layers of dreams and dragging you into a light that's so bright--it will blind you and burn you alive.„
Click to expand...
The scans linked don't work for me
 
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