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Itachi Outsmarts all of Bleach

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I don’t think you should be bringing up examples you appear to disagree with (calling mindflayer stuff bs) as a bastion for an argument against something. Like perhaps MF should be SG and the arguments/discourse surrounding it isn’t up to snuff (whatever that could mean I’m not involved in the verse). Regardless I see a bunch of “but this verse doesn’t have it” as justifying why Aizen shouldn’t, and frankly that’s just whataboutism moments left and right. Rather than drop whataboutism after whataboutism, it’d be appreciated if you engaged more in the conversation using the context within Bleach and citing our standards instead.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Regardless I see a bunch of “but this verse doesn’t have it” as justifying why Aizen shouldn’t, and frankly that’s just whataboutism moments left and right
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Right, but we also have multiple comments of "this verse has it so Aizen should too." But I agree the whataboutism as a whole should be put aside.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
The mind flayers made star system-spanning empires with tech capable of nuking 2-A multiverses in a verse where it's still pseudo-medieval, and it still didn't qualify for SG my guy, I'm trying to show you how bs the standards are
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I mean we both agree that Supergenius simply exists to wank off Comic characters so 🤷‍♂️.

I'm just saying that your interpretation doesn't seem to be supported by the page itself and seems to contradict accepted examples. If Supergenius is internally inconsistent in definition (application most certainly though), then 🤷‍♂️.
 
Never thought I’d disagree with a Bleach thread but I do. OP states it’s stated to reality warp things on a universal scale but that’s never stated. If that was the case why didn’t Aizen just use it to become the SK and make the universe the way he wants it?
 
I agree with Deagonx and Lephyr here. Characters with Supergenius level intellects have to display an absolutely ridiculous amount of versatility when it comes to constructing reality-warping equipment of an at the very minimum universal scale from whatever material they have at hand, not just use a magical piece of a cosmic entity to do so and have no other extremely versatile feats remotely approaching this scale.
 
Deagonx said:
I don't agree. The nuclear bomb wasn't something that they just poured random substances into until something worked
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Neither was the hogyoku. You repeating this in a condescending and oversimplified way doesn't change that fact. The story doesn't give us the specifics of everything Soul Society-science related Aizen went into, and nothing implies they were throwing shit at the wall to see what stuck.

If what you claim is true, Tokinada and Seinosuke Yamada would've made another Hogyoku... but they can't. This doesn't hold up to a tiny bit of scrutiny.
 
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Antvasima said:
I agree with Deagonx and Lephyr here. Characters with Supergenius level intellects have to display an absolutely ridiculous amount of versatility when it comes to constructing reality-warping equipment of an at the very minimum universal scale from whatever material they have at hand, not just use a magical piece of a cosmic entity to do so and have no other extremely versatile feats remotely approaching this scale.
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However the issue is that the Hogyoku having a Soul King Fragment is argued as a fuel source and it wasn't countered as of right now.
 
Antvasima said:
whatever material they have at hand
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This is an absurd no-limits fallacy

The implication would be characters that qualify as "supergenius" can just make 3-A tech out of something like an unlimited supply of bananas or 3-A technology out of air. Even if the laws of physics can be bent in a verse, there has to be some level of jump a character can make that's impossible in real life that allows them to make 3-A technology, and Aizen making it with Reio fragments and complicated combinations of technology, chemistry, and whatever else it took to make the Hogyoku can just be that jump.
 
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Guacamolefletcher said:
This is an absurd no-limits fallacy

The implication would be characters that qualify as "supergenius" can just make 3-A tech out of something like an unlimited supply of bananas or 3-A technology out of air
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Besides, the Soul King Fragment is just a fuel source that is yet to be countered. Its like saying building a nuclear bomb isn't a feat for us, cause we used plutonium to make it possible.
 
It's never stated the Hogyoku is powered by the fragment (which is SK's fingernail btw), nor is it stated that that's the reason that it's 3-A. The Hogyoku is not composed of SK's part, it simply absorbed one.

It's at most an esoteric substance Aizen uses in his construction of a 3-A device.
 
Do these characters have an extremely wide repertoire of reality-warping inventions of a similar scale, and what are the Hogyoku's capabilities in the first place?
 
SilentBob34 said:
Never thought I’d disagree with a Bleach thread but I do. OP states it’s stated to reality warp things on a universal scale but that’s never stated. If that was the case why didn’t Aizen just use it to become the SK and make the universe the way he wants it?
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The scans are in the blog. Look at the range section of Aizens profile for that.
Antvasima said:
Do these characters have an extremely wide repertoire of reality-warping inventions of a similar scale,
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Well we know there's others for Kisuke in the blog and that have been discussed here.
Antvasima said:
and what are the Hogyoku's capabilities in the first place?
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Also on the blog.
 
Antvasima said:
Do these characters have an extremely wide repertoire of reality-warping inventions of a similar scale, and what are the Hogyoku's capabilities in the first place?
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Limited Fusionism (Aizen physically fused with the Hogyoku[48]), Reality Warping and Mind Reading (The true power of the Hogyoku is to make the owners desires come true. The Hogyoku is an orb with a mind of it's own and is capable of reading the hearts of those around it. It is capable of granting Aizen whatever he desires, so long as it is within his abilities[49]), Power Bestowal and Power Modification (The Hogyoku can bestow powers onto others and modify beings and their powers[50] such as bestowing Sealing onto Wonderwiess[51] or bestowing Hollowfication onto Tosen.[52] By hearing the desires of those close to it, the Hogyoku can force people to realize their latent abilities[53]), Fate Manipulation (The Hogyoku made certain events occur due to reading the hearts of people around it and materializing them. For example, the Hogyoku controlled the boundary between Shinigami and Hollow as that was Kisuke's wish, or Rukia losing all of her powers by giving them to Ichigo as she tortured herself over the death of Kaien Shiba[54]), Soul Absorption and Statistics Amplification (Aizen is able to feed Souls to The Hogyoku to boost its power[55]), Transformation, Adaptation and Reactive Evolution (The Hogyoku made Aizen undergo several evolutions during battle, increasing his statistics, changing his appearance and granting him new abilities and resistances on the spot[56]), Regeneration (Mid-Godly; Aizen can quickly regenerate from attacks such as Mugetsu or any attack within The Soul Society[57][58]), Immortality (Types 1, 2, 3, 4, and 8 - Aizen gained a form of immortality with the Hogyoku.[59] Aizen's immortality allows him to live past his immense 20,000 year prison sentence.[60] Aizen can survive severe wounds such as a missing arm and hole in his chest without initially regenerating.[61] Aizen's immortality and regeneration is entirely reliant upon the Hogyoku embedded in his chest,[62] which will keep Aizen alive even if it were to be stolen from his body, or if Aizen were to sustain mortal damage, forcing him to evolve[63]), Biological Manipulation, Transmutation, Limited Deconstruction, Statistics Amplification and Statistics Reduction (With the Hogyoku, Aizen can induce Hollowfication onto Souls, depending on their level of Strength they either disintegrated or transformed into a Hollow, This causes them to gain the inherent characteristics of Hollows such as gaining a large amount of strength at the cost of massively decreasing their intelligence[64]),
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Range
Universal, possibly Universal+ to Interdimensional with the Hogyoku (The Hogyoku can affect the entire world through its ability to fulfill the desires of people[124])
Click to expand...
 
Deagonx said:
Small clarification, but the scan does not say Hogyoku affects "the entire world" rather it says "the very world."
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When the soul king and world are in the same paragraph, they talk about creation. On the same page, it says that becoming the soul king would allow them to reshape the world; again, when talking about the soul king, we are talking about creation, not a single realm. It should be 2-C, but 2-C bleach must wait until cour 3 and 4.
 
Don't engage with that rage bait 🗿. No one's interested in this semantic fuckery.
Deagonx said:
Small clarification, but the scan does not say Hogyoku affects "the entire world" rather it says "the very world."


What other reality warping inventions do they have at this scale? Also, please refrain from mockery/insults in the future.
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The ones I put in the blog and discussed in the thread.

It's not honest to say there are no other feats. Just say feats you disagree with or sum, bit saying there are no other fears in discussion is simply not true and is a misrepresentation of events.
 
I didn't say there are no other feats, I said they didn't have other "reality warping inventions at this scale."
 
Kisuke's ability with technology is so advanced he can affect his entire cosmology itself. Kisuke's Keikaigi technology manipulates the Garganta space between the worlds to travel through. Kisuke eventually masters this technology to open up a portal to the Garganta at will. The fact that Kisuke with just his technology is capable of warping a space greater than two worlds to travel through them at will is beyond even a supernatural level of technological prowess, but a universal one. This is further shown by Kisuke creating technology to counteract the time dilation of a realm itself. Kisuke's Kaikyō Kotei rods are creations designed to stop the flow of Kōryū in the Dangai, allowing to not only prevent it from trapping people who stay too long within the Dangai, but it also allows one to shorten the range of the Kototsu's ability to throw one off its temporal axis to the point it goes from being able to kill someone by throwing them off their time axis by centuries, to only throwing them off by a couple days. Kisuke's ability to do this showcases not only a technological ability to massively affect entire worlds, but an in depth knowledge of the world and esoteric concepts like how 4th dimensional space and time flow operate within his world, and how Kisuke can manipulate and affect these forces.
Click to expand...
 
Which of those do you believe reach the relevant level here, and what are the actual scans for them?
 
Deagonx said:
Which of those do you believe reach the relevant level here, and what are the actual scans for them?
Click to expand...
Kisuke's ability with technology is so advanced he can affect his entire cosmology itself.
Click to expand...
Kisuke's Keikaigi technology manipulates the Garganta space between the worlds to travel through. Kisuke eventually masters this technology to open up a portal to the Garganta at will. The fact that Kisuke with just his technology is capable of warping a space greater than two worlds to travel through them at will is beyond even a supernatural level of technological prowess, but a universal one.
Click to expand...
The Garganta is space-time that contains at least three more universal space-times and 1 Unknown sized space-time with many more (arguably an infinite number of) at least star-level spaces. it's also one of the space-time barriers in the verse
This is further shown by Kisuke creating technology to counteract the time dilation of a realm itself. Kisuke's Kaikyō Kotei rods are creations designed to stop the flow of Kōryū in the Dangai, allowing to not only prevent it from trapping people who stay too long within the Dangai, but it also allows one to shorten the range of the Kototsu's ability to throw one off its temporal axis to the point it goes from being able to kill someone by throwing them off their time axis by centuries, to only throwing them off by a couple days. Kisuke's ability to do this showcases not only a technological ability to massively affect entire worlds, but an in depth knowledge of the world and esoteric concepts like how 4th dimensional space and time flow operate within his world, and how Kisuke can manipulate and affect these forces.
Click to expand...
This one is self-explanatory
Ask Arcker123 for the scans
 
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Deagonx said:
Which of those do you believe reach the relevant level here, and what are the actual scans for them?
Click to expand...
Kisuke's Kaikyō Kotei rods are creations designed to stop the flow of Kōryū in the Dangai, allowing to not only prevent it from trapping people who stay too long within the Dangai, but it also allows one to shorten the range of the Kototsu's ability to throw one off its temporal axis to the point it goes from being able to kill someone by throwing them off their time axis by centuries, to only throwing them off by a couple days. Kisuke's ability to do this showcases not only a technological ability to massively affect entire worlds, but an in depth knowledge of the world and esoteric concepts like how 4th dimensional space and time flow operate within his world, and how Kisuke can manipulate and affect these forces.
Click to expand...
for this specifically, it was the episode where Ichigo first started his training inside the Dangai. I don't remember the manga chapter though.
 
Most of the rest of this is sound, but there are a couple other things I have to disagree with:

Enhanced Stealth Mastery and Enhanced Camouflage (With the Reiatsu Concealing Cloak, Aizen can completely negate the emission of his Reiatsu, causing him to become unsensible to even Shinigami.[13] He can also intertwine Kido into this cloak which causes him to blend into the environment and conceals his physical appearance[14])
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I checked with DarkGrath on this having invisibility/camouflage doesn't automatically grant stealth mastery, so that should be removed or an additional justification should be provided.
Light Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Enhanced Invisibility and Further Enhanced Stealth Mastery (By bending light, a user of Kyokkō can make themselves[18] or anything they desire invisible[19] and can hide their Reiatsu, Reiryoku, or Kido, even from Shinigami. Kyokkō is described as cutting through space to hide things[20])
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Spatial Manip is redundant to the later Spacetime Manip, so that should be resolved somehow, and the Stealth Mastery should be removed.

Ditto for Kisuke's stealth mastery.
 
Deagonx said:
Most of the rest of this is sound, but there are a couple other things I have to disagree with:


I checked with DarkGrath on this having invisibility/camouflage doesn't automatically grant stealth mastery, so that should be removed or an additional justification should be provided.

Spatial Manip is redundant to the later Spacetime Manip, so that should be resolved somehow, and the Stealth Mastery should be removed.

Ditto for Kisuke's stealth mastery.
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such as Invisibility, adapting to blend into one's surroundings, dampening one's presence entirely, or suppressing the sounds one would make.
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They also provide Resistance to Extra-sensory perception.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
See, the thing is

That doesn't matter for a true Supergenius. The moment you need a specific power source, one you yourself can't invent from scratch, is the moment you stop qualifying for the rating.


The tiering of the power source is irrelevant, as ultimately, the sheer fact it can turn your subconscious desires to reality is reality warping tech. However, the existence of this specific power source instantly make it so that it doesn't qualify.
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But wouldn’t using a power source refining it to make something new apply.
Just think of it like crude oil. Aizen ability to make soul king fragments into the hogykou(something that can affect the universe) should give them super genius.
 
another example u need materials like colbalt and lithium ion batteries for iPhone without it u wouldn’t have the phone. U Can’t just use random materials that would be illogical. Just like in order to make paper u need trees. the same logic would apply here, in order to make an item that can warp reality u would need materials that affect the world. So the ability to take this ingredient and materials to get your desired outcome should count for their intelligence lvl.

So them using the soul king fragment shouldn’t be used as a counter to their intelligence.

Especially because the hogyoku was a ground breaking invention.
 
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Westcoast5005 said:
But wouldn’t using a power source refining it to make something new apply.
Just think of it like crude oil. Aizen ability to make soul king fragments into the hogykou(something that can affect the universe) should give them super genius.
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Not as the standards are currently defined

Plus, I absolutely disagree with treating a soul king fragment as "crude oil"
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Not as the standards are currently defined

Plus, I absolutely disagree with treating a soul king fragment as "crude oil"
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Westcoast5005 said:
another example u need materials like colbalt and lithium ion batteries for iPhone without it u wouldn’t have the phone. U Can’t just use random materials that would be illogical. Just like in order to make paper u need trees. the same logic would apply here, in order to make an item that can warp reality u would need materials that affect the world. So the ability to take this ingredient and materials to get your desired outcome should count for their intelligence lvl.

So them using the soul king fragment shouldn’t be used as a counter to their intelligence.

Especially because the hogyoku was a ground breaking invention.
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That’s why I used another example

Also could u show me where it states what you saying in the wiki standards.
 
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