• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Itachi Outsmarts all of Bleach

Status
Not open for further replies.
Aizen created a device through using his intellect, which is capable of harnessing the full potential of a Soul King fragment, allowing him to warp the literal fabric of reality. It initially not working doesn't disprove the fact that when fully completed, it was capable of warping reality on a 3-A level, which is what is required for Supergenius. Just because you believe he achieved this after trial and error doesn't mean the feat doesn't exist. That's a complete nonsensical assertion, and one which actively grates against our standards. Characters of certain intelligence are still capable of intellectual failure, it doesn't disprove what has actually occurred.

Deagonx, the fragments on themselves aren't capable of warping reality on a Universal scale, that's why everyone with a fragment doesn't possess Universal ap or abilities. But Aizen and Kisuke, through their intelligence, were capable of unlocking that power, and created a device that by all accounts fulfills our requirements for Supergenius.
 
I understand the argument, but I don't consider that sufficient based on what the page says. I am happy to ping more staff to evaluate it if you think my interpretation of the standards is in error.
 
Deagonx said:
I understand the argument, but I don't consider that sufficient based on what the page says. I am happy to ping more staff to evaluate it if you think my interpretation of the standards is in error.
Click to expand...
We'll never convince you otherwise, so I'm completely fine with you pinging more staff.

I would highly recommend pinging @LordTracer @UchihaSlayer96 and @LordGriffin1000 since all three heavily interact with, and comment on Bleach related threads.
 
No worries. I don't expect everyone to see it that way, but for me it's kinda like an FMA philosophers stone. It gets stronger the more souls you feed it. I don't think it upscales to the person's intelligence to just feed it an extremely large amount to gain more power. Or using Element X in DC. Element X is just a super powerful element, tapping into that power doesn't necessarily require Supergenius Intellect, as someone with actual Supergenius Intellect could do it without Element X.

So, to me, a scenario in which a character who creates something capable of 3-A feat (which, to be clear here, we're just talking about taking down the boundary between two worlds) because they filled it with a bunch of powerful objects (fragment of the Soul King, hundreds of soul-reaper worthy residents of the Soul Society, a second Hogokyu) is assigned the same level of intelligence as someone who's just so smart they made a 3-A device through technology (like Reed Richards) doesn't seem fitting, so I am a disagree. Fully prepared for the possibility that most people don't feel that way, but thats my take on it.
 
Last edited:
Deceived3596 said:
Aizen created a device through using his intellect, which is capable of harnessing the full potential of a Soul King fragment, allowing him to warp the literal fabric of reality. It initially not working doesn't disprove the fact that when fully completed, it was capable of warping reality on a 3-A level, which is what is required for Supergenius. Just because you believe he achieved this after trial and error doesn't mean the feat doesn't exist. That's a complete nonsensical assertion, and one which actively grates against our standards. Characters of certain intelligence are still capable of intellectual failure, it doesn't disprove what has actually occurred.

Deagonx, the fragments on themselves aren't capable of warping reality on a Universal scale, that's why everyone with a fragment doesn't possess Universal ap or abilities. But Aizen and Kisuke, through their intelligence, were capable of unlocking that power, and created a device that by all accounts fulfills our requirements for Supergenius.
Click to expand...
I find this argument right here very convincing, personally.
As I understand it, the SK fragments by themselves don't inherently grant nor possess Reality Warping or fate altering abilities. The Hōgyoku does.

Aizen and Kisuke reached these abilities through their own ingenuity. The SK fragment in this case seems, to me at least, like nothing more than a power source.
For instance, if we had a generic genius scientist character who devised some insane Supergenius level technology, but achieved said tech with the help of an outside energy source, I don't see how that would invalidate the intelligence feat.

Likewise, them initially failing to perfect the Hōgyoku doesn't mean much. Again, circling back to generic scientist-kun for a sec, if a character fails to achieve some insane SG-qualifying technology, but had to go through an arduous trail and error process to get there, they'd still be a SG. Not only is it a very common trope for scientists, it's also a thing IRL. Science is all about trial and error. We rarely get things right the first time, and this goes for even the most ingenious among us.

So, yeah, all in all, I'm in the same boat as Tracer.
 
Arcker123 said:
Hello people. We're going to start a new series revising Bleach profiles in terms of range, intelligence, and such.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Arcker123/Sandbox3

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Today we're going to start with Kisuke and Aizen, the smartest characters in the verse. Starting off with the hardest first. I'm going to justify why I gave them a Supergenius upgrade. Gonna be finishing scan mid thread because justifications are done.

According to the Intelligence page, one can get a Supergenius rating for technology if:

The bolded is the most important argument to the case here, and I believe that Aizen and Kisuke do this with their creation of the Hogyoku, a device that is stated to warp reality on the level of the entire Bleach world, which we accept to be composed of several universes (3-A to Low 2-C Structures). Scans in Sandbox, Thanks Damage.

Since Aizen and Kisuke can use their inventions to literally warp reality according to their wishes, they should have Supergenius intelligence. Kisuke also debatably has another Supergenius feat by manipulating the Dangai's time axis to shorten the range of its temporal BFR from centuries to only days. The Dangai we accept to be a Low 2-C structure.

If this gets accepted we need to unlock the Intelligence page directly to remove Aizen and Kisuke as examples of EG since we are updating them to SG. They should probably be examples of SG if this gets accepted due to their popularity but that should be discussed elsewhere, for now, just removing them from EG makes sense.

Kisuke vs Rick Sanchez is the match ngl.

Itachi still outthinks the "Creating bullshit mcguffins are my only intelligence feats" gang by the way. Getting good grades on a high school level exam as a child and true intellectual monologues about truth > Hogyoku merchants and psuedo intellectual speeches about truth.
Agree: Arc7Kuroi, Crobatman44, Bastolan27, LordGinSama, @Godernet, @Deceived3596, @Excel616, @SlendVeny, LordTracer, UchihaSlayer96Neutral:Disagree: Deagonx
Aizen-kisuke by neontomcat on DeviantArt
Click to expand...
Agreed btw.

That last bit is cringe, though that's just me remembering a bad Iron Man debater debating against someone on Iron Man vs Batman in iq.
 
Deagonx said:
I would not agree with this. According to the novels the Hogyoku are made by fragments of the Soul King, which is what grants them their power. As seen in this scan Aizen kept feeding his Hogyoku more and more souls but failed to perfect it, only succeeding when he took Urahara's Hogyoku and fed it to his own.

What we'd expect of someone of Supergenius intelligence is that their understanding of technology is so great that they can just construct 3-A technology through raw intellect. Using a fragment of a incredibly powerful being to create a failed wish granting device that only worked when they fed it hundreds of souls as well as another failed wish granting device doesn't really pass inspection for me, personally.
Click to expand...
That point is completely irrelevant. To put it in an analogy sense: The fragment of the Hogyoku would be the equivalent of plutonium that someone like Oppenheimer would use for a nuclear bomb, its a fuel source, its still up to Aizen and Kisuke to create a means to measure it, test it, make sure it doesn't fall apart, understand what is wrong (many of these instances we know happened in the manga, as that is specifically why Aizen determined to feed his Hogyoku Kisuke's, as he also knew what was going on and why those hundreds of souls didn't work). Unless you can provide specific arguments as to why we can't give them the super genius rating, this argument should be viewed as irrelevant.
 
KillerNerd007 said:
That point is completely irrelevant. To put it in an analogy sense: The fragment of the Hogyoku would be the equivalent of plutonium that someone like Oppenheimer would use for a nuclear bomb, its a fuel source, its still up to Aizen and Kisuke to create a means to measure it, test it, make sure it doesn't fall apart, understand what is wrong (many of these instances we know happened in the manga, as that is specifically why Aizen determined to feed his Hogyoku Kisuke's, as he also knew what was going on and why those hundreds of souls didn't work). Unless you can provide specific arguments as to why we can't give them the super genius rating, this argument should be viewed as irrelevant.
Click to expand...
To add onto this, we have many characters on here who have enough to be granted super genius level intellect, like Iron Man, Batman, Hank Pym, Brainiac, and much like Aizen and Kisuke, they can create tech or devices that can affect their verses, but sometimes, these guys use things like Celestial Tech or Element X, yet its still up to them to create their suits (or whatever else the plot needs). So if they can be given super genius, why not Kisuke and Aizen?
 
KillerNerd007 said:
these guys use things like Celestial Tech or Element X, yet its still up to them to create their suits (or whatever else the plot needs). So if they can be given super genius, why not Kisuke and Aizen?
Click to expand...
Well, as I said above, I don't think someone should have Supergenius Intelligence just for making something with Element X. Brainiac can straight up make a universe destroying device without Element X.
 
Deagonx said:
Well, as I said above, I don't think someone should have Supergenius Intelligence just for making something with Element X. Brainiac can straight up make a universe destroying device without Element X.
Click to expand...
Ehh, Character X being smarter than Character Y doesn't mean that Character Y can't occupy the same intelligence rating. It just means X is higher into it.
 
Deagonx said:
Well, as I said above, I don't think someone should have Supergenius Intelligence just for making something with Element X. Brainiac can straight up make a universe destroying device without Element X.
Click to expand...
I haven't read much of DC, so can't comment on it a lot of the times, but I am aware Brainiac also has things like having more knowledge than the entire universe put together when he was born. But even beyond that, what you said didn't counter what I pointed out, as its still up to them (Iron Man, Batman, or in this case, Aizen and Kisuke) to understand whatever the object they are using to reality warp the universe (Iron Man with Celestial Tech when he made the God Killer Mark 2 and the Hulkbuster, Batman with Element X when he created the Final Batsuit, or in this case, Aizen and Kisuke using the Soul King fragment). Also, your argument stems from that its a limiter of sorts, which you didn't show anything for it being the case.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Ehh, Character X being smarter than Character Y doesn't mean that Character Y can't occupy the same intelligence rating. It just means X is higher into it.
Click to expand...
I agree, I'm not opposing the rating due to these characters being less intelligent than certain other characters, I am just using them as an example of what I believe the standard is, which is that a 3-A feat can be accomplished through one's technological prowess or intellect alone. "Feed this thing until it eventually gets strong enough" just doesn't really get there for me. It's fine if I'm outvoted, I recognize it as a matter of interpretation, that's just my perspective on it.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Ehh, Character X being smarter than Character Y doesn't mean that Character Y can't occupy the same intelligence rating. It just means X is higher into it.
Click to expand...
Legit dude is ignoring that very fact.

Deagonx said:
I agree, I'm not opposing the rating due to these characters being less intelligent than certain other characters, I am just using them as an example of what I believe the standard is, which is that a 3-A feat can be accomplished through one's technological prowess or intellect alone. "Feed this thing until it eventually gets strong enough" just doesn't really get there for me. It's fine if I'm outvoted, I recognize it as a matter of interpretation, that's just my perspective on it.
Click to expand...
This doesn't contradict what I said, the analogy of the Soul King Fragment being the equivalent of plutonium for building a nuke does apply here. Remember Aizen and Kisuke had to make tests to see what works and what doesn't (which we for a fact know they did), otherwise if they were off, the Hogyoku wouldn't work as intended.

Again, you have to show why Soul King Fragment being used doesn't give Aizen and Kisuke a super genius rating.
 
Deagonx said:
I agree, I'm not opposing the rating due to these characters being less intelligent than certain other characters, I am just using them as an example of what I believe the standard is, which is that a 3-A feat can be accomplished through one's technological prowess or intellect alone. "Feed this thing until it eventually gets strong enough" just doesn't really get there for me. It's fine if I'm outvoted, I recognize it as a matter of interpretation, that's just my perspective on it.
Click to expand...
I understand your point, and you are free to believe your interpretation, but as other people pointed out, the fragment of the soul king is an energy source without any inherent hax; look at Sado's trash fullbring, also the boost the hyogoku got from souls was always implied to be insignificant, like an adjuchas class hollow who cannot evolve no matter how many souls it consumed.
 
Arcker123 said:
Also Deagon, the Hogyoku isn't the only part of the Supergenius justification, I dedicated an entire section of Kisuke's intelligence section to that. Do you disagree with all of that?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure it's allowed to format an intelligence section in that manner. That's like, 12 paragraphs just for the intelligence justification?

However, my understanding is the other main feat proposed is shortening the time axis of the Dangai? If so, I believe this section of the Supergenius explanation is an issue:
Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well. Basically there should be a very extreme amount of versatility combined with a high or extremely high degree of scale.
Click to expand...
I don't consider it extremely versatile to accomplish that one thing, I believe it falls under EG which they already have.
 
Last edited:
Deagonx said:
I'm not sure it's allowed to format an intelligence section in that manner. That's like, 12 paragraphs just for the intelligence justification?
Click to expand...
Read the page. I'm not breaking any formatting rules.
Deagonx said:
However, my understanding is the other main feat proposed is shortening the time axis of the Dangai?
Click to expand...
Read the page to see all the feats. Why do you think I wrote it?
Deagonx said:
I don't consider it extremely versatile to accomplish that one thing, I believe it falls under EG which they already have.
Click to expand...
Nobody argued such. There's an "or" there for a reason. Scale alone can grant the rating, affecting temporality to such a degree is the argument.
 
LordTracer said:
Uh, why wouldn’t it be allowed?
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Standard Format for Character Profiles

When there are multiple versions of a character that are distinct enough to be split into several profiles, whether it is due to the length and complexity of the page or versions from different mediums, then the multiple pages that are created as a result of this have to be linked by a tabber...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

It would seem most prudent to provide that in an "explanations" section while the main intelligence is indexed the usual way, providing the most prominent feats that justify the level given. But I've never seen a profile that, instead of just providing a few short sentences at most for each statistic, breaks out into a 5-section 12-paragraph essay on a characters intelligence. I guess it isn't directly prohibited, but it seems kind of ridiculous to me.
 
From my knowledge we allow Intelligence sections to be as detailed as we accept them to be on a case by case basis.

That's why the Itachi revision got accepted, and that's what I base all of my intelligence revisions on such as my Dishonored ones, which were also accepted. Length doesn't matter.

Edit: Your nitpicks again do not matter.
 
Ah, here it is:

Notes/Explanations​

Notes can be considered as an extension of the references sections and should be used when the justification for something is too difficult to contextualize and eventually would need to involve several sentences to explain. This section can serve the purpose of explaining chain scaling and scaling values for the profiles.

It is important to emphasize that this is an optional enhancement and not inherently obligatory.
Click to expand...
 
So, there's a reason why Supergenius is such a contested rating and still to this day many want to revise it, because it's actual bullshit

difficult to qualify for it. In my experience, this is by design and intent as a way to separate "cosmic intellects" from those that barely enter it.

Unfortunately for Bleach, Deagon here is absolutely correct. Even among all the scans brought for Aizen's and Urahara's intellectual prowess, the best they could get is a "possibly Supergenius" because their feat technologically prowess feat involves in essence a extremely esoteric power battery that they themselves didn't even make, they just made the engine around it, and they still need more power to truly do what they want it to do. That's not a Supergenius level intellect as the site currently defines it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

GOATMAN1232000
  • Locked
BLEACH - Resistance addition for Yoruich and Kisukei
Replies
39
Views
2K
GOATMAN1232000
GOATMAN1232000
Excellence616
  • Locked
Item Profile (The Hōgyoku)
2 3
Replies
86
Views
6K
UchihaSlayer96
UchihaSlayer96
Arcker123
  • Locked
Minor Aizen Thread
Replies
10
Views
2K
poyraz
poyraz
TWILIGHT-OP
  • Locked
Tokimi's Intelligence rating
Replies
32
Views
1K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Mizuki67
Things to fix in Tensura Light Novel (Part 1)
Replies
32
Views
4K
Astral_Trinity439
Astral_Trinity439
Back
Top