Itachi Outsmarts all of Bleach

[KillerNerd007]

I'm not sure it's allowed to format an intelligence section in that manner. That's like, 12 paragraphs just for the intelligence justification?

However, my understanding is the other main feat proposed is shortening the time axis of the Dangai? If so, I believe this section of the Supergenius explanation is an issue:

I don't consider it extremely versatile to accomplish that one thing, I believe it falls under EG which they already have.

The Dangai is a realm that surrounds both the World of the Living and Soul Society, with over 2000 layers of time surrounding it and it has a different space as well (it was stated to be a separate space time, the Soul Society have no means to seal it and they have time stop) and if you touch the Kototsu (which controls all of space and time in the realm) you are flung hundreds of years to the past... yeah pretty sure Kisuke inventing technology on the spot that allows you to be transported backwards in time just a few days instead of centuaries is enough as well.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It does say it’s optional and words it as like “you can do this” implying a “but you don’t have to”. (Regarding the formatting stuff)

So Lephyr is your vote then for a possibly rating or no rating?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It does say it’s optional and words it as like “you can do this” implying a “but you don’t have to”. (Regarding the formatting stuff)

So Lephyr is your vote then for a possibly rating or no rating?

No rating. Not until Supergenius as a whole gets revised.

Edit: To give y'all perspective. All those tangential feats of intellect? Like Aizen's analytical capability, Urahara's inventiveness, etc etc etc... They mean nothing for a Supergenius as is defined right now. You can't even get Supergenius with the sheer intellectual ability to foresee the entire individual history, life, thoughts and modus operandi of a person through sheer psychological evaluation, which is so far removed from what is possible in reality that it would be the closest to "reality warping intellect" for analysis.

 

[KillerNerd007]

So, there's a reason why Supergenius is such a contested rating and still to this day many want to revise it, because it's actual bullshit

difficult to qualify for it. In my experience, this is by design and intent as a way to separate "cosmic intellects" from those that barely enter it.

Unfortunately for Bleach, Deagon here is absolutely correct. Even among all the scans brought for Aizen's and Urahara's intellectual prowess, the best they could get is a "possibly Supergenius" because their feat technologically prowess feat involves in essence a extremely esoteric power battery that they themselves didn't even make, they just made the engine around it, and they still need more power to truly do what they want it to do. That's not a Supergenius level intellect as the site currently defines it.

Limiting their intellect based on a fuel source isn't a good argument to say they can't have it. Its irrelevant whether they made it or not, they still built technology to make it work. Remember, the Soul King Fragment is a fuel source, like Plutonium for a Nuclear Bomb, its still up for Aizen and Kisuke to understand what is happening and for it to serve its purpose for the narrative (which it did btw).

 

[LordTracer]

Standard Format for Character Profiles

When there are multiple versions of a character that are distinct enough to be split into several profiles, whether it is due to the length and complexity of the page or versions from different mediums, then the multiple pages that are created as a result of this have to be linked by a tabber...

vsbattles.fandom.com

It would seem most prudent to provide that in an "explanations" section while the main intelligence is indexed the usual way, providing the most prominent feats that justify the level given. But I've never seen a profile that, instead of just providing a few short sentences at most for each statistic, breaks out into a 5-section 12-paragraph essay on a characters intelligence. I guess it isn't directly prohibited, but it seems kind of ridiculous to me.

The Explanations section is optional, and it makes a lot more sense (at least to me) to provide all the information about the character’s intelligence in their Intelligence section.

And it’s not like Intelligence sections with multiple tabbers is a new thing, there’s a ton of profiles that do that to separate general intelligence from combat intelligence, this is just an extension of that.

Plus, on the Standard Format page, it also says this

Don't sacrifice any details for the reading convenience. Try to get the information across in the most efficient manner. If you don't manage to come up with a short explanation, then stick to a longer one.

So the length of the section isn’t a problem either.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I don't believe the manner in which the Hogyoku developed this power is appropriately described as resulting from Aizen's "technological prowess" given the nature of its development. He didn't create highly advanced technology that was 3-A, he fed a bunch of stuff to a mysterious orb that was combined with a piece of an extremely powerful being. If he were actually a supergenius he wouldn't need the Soul King fragment, hundreds of souls, or another persons failed Hogyoku. He could just create the technology himself, which he didn't.

In a nutshell, feeding 3-A power into an object doesn't make you a Supergenius for inventing the object, the 3-A comes from the power you fed it, not your own intellect.

Sounds like saying "Oh, this verse shouldn't qualify for supergenius despite meeting the standards, it's just super easy to make 3-A tech in this verse"

This is an argument that can literally be applied to anything, based purely upon disbelief:
"Mr. Fantastic isn't supergenius, it's just really easy to make that type of technology in marvel"

Furthermore, the process is certainly a lot more complex than you're making it out to be. You're saying it like it's a monkey throwing sticks at a wall or something, that they just "poured souls into a wish-granting device"

 

[KillerNerd007]

Sounds like saying "Oh, this verse shouldn't qualify for supergenius despite meeting the standards, it's just super easy to make 3-A tech in this verse"

Exactly! Literally that's like saying Iron Man building a suit of armor with Celestial Tech isn't an intellect feat for him, despite bro having to understand how to make it work and IMPROVE on it (as he built it with Iron Man weapons). Aizen and Kisuke still needed to test it and all.

Legit not moving on until someone gives me a detailed explanation on why Aizen and Kisuke wouldn't get super genius despite we can literally give it to many characters who do similar things.

 

[Deagonx]

It does say it’s optional and words it as like “you can do this” implying a “but you don’t have to”. (Regarding the formatting stuff)

Yes, but it says that it should be used when a justification is difficult to contextualize and would require several sentences to explain. I can't imagine a world in which a 12-paragraph intelligence justification wouldn't fall under that.

Plus, on the Standard Format page, it also says this
So the length of the section isn’t a problem either.

It also says this:

• Don't use overly long explanations in the Powers and Abilities section. Instead, move them into the Notable Attacks/Techniques or Explanations section.

So I'm not sure why that wouldn't apply to stats. I suppose we could refer this to a Staff Discussion to avoid any further derailing.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Exactly! Literally that's like saying Iron Man building a suit of armor with Celestial Tech isn't an intellect feat for him, despite bro having to understand how to make it work and IMPROVE on it (as he built it with Iron Man weapons). Aizen and Kisuke still needed to test it and all.

Legit not moving on until someone gives me a detailed explanation on why Aizen and Kisuke wouldn't get super genius despite we can literally give it to many characters who do similar things.

don't look Iron Man's intelligence rating, you will flip

 

[Deagonx]

Legit not moving on until someone gives me a detailed explanation on why Aizen and Kisuke wouldn't get super genius despite we can literally give it to many characters who do similar things.

This is whataboutism and isn't a valid argument. If anything we should just also revise those pages.

 

[KillerNerd007]

don't look Iron Man's intelligence rating, you will flip

Sadly I understand the character.

 

[KingNanaya]

I mean, if this profile can have an intelligence section this long, I'm not sure what the problem is

Margaery Tyrell

Queen Margaery Tyrell was the only daughter of Lord Mace Tyrell and Lady Alerie Tyrell, granddaughter of Lady Olenna Tyrell and sister of Ser Loras Tyrell. Margaery became Queen Consort through her marriage to King Joffrey Baratheon, and later his younger brother, King Tommen Baratheon...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Sadly I understand the character.

Then you will understand why Aizen and Kisuke don't qualify, when not even Iron Man is considered to qualify under current standards.

The standard is strict as ****, one of the most strict ratings on site.

 

[LordTracer]

So I'm not sure why that wouldn't apply to stats.

Because it doesn’t say to apply it to stats. Not to mention that there’s numerous profiles that have bricks of text for their stat justifications.

But yes, this is derailing.

 

[KillerNerd007]

This is whataboutism and isn't a valid argument. If anything we should just also revise those pages.

I don't like this cherry picking, cause I am still waiting for the counter of the fact I pointed out that it was still up to Aizen and Kisuke to understand the technology being implemented to make it work (ranging from tests, seeing what worked and what didn't, etc., that's how most of the plot began), with the Soul King Fragment just being a fuel source. I was just saying you can apply this exact logic to characters who have done similar things.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Then you will understand why Aizen and Kisuke don't qualify, when not even Iron Man is considered to qualify under current standards.

I mean, so then what's the standard? Do you have to make 3-A tech out of sticks and stones to be a supergenius? None of this is mentioned in the page, secret standards don't apply

 

[Arcker123]

Unfortunately for Bleach, Deagon here is absolutely correct. Even among all the scans brought for Aizen's and Urahara's intellectual prowess, the best they could get is a "possibly Supergenius" because their feat technologically prowess feat involves in essence a extremely esoteric power battery that they themselves didn't even make, they just made the engine around it, and they still need more power to truly do what they want it to do. That's not a Supergenius level intellect as the site currently defines it.

The battery itself isn't the reason it's 3-A. This is simply the false assumption Deagon makes despite it being debunked.

The SK fragments themselves aren't 3-A, and are not stated to be the reason the Hogyoku is 3-A. The Hogyoku is 3-A due to Aizen's Intelligence, the only reason the Hogyoku can even reality warp is due to Aizen's intellect. Aizen gave it these abilities. Aizen being able to take esoteric substances, and combine them to make a 3-A object is the feat here.

Then you will understand why Aizen and Kisuke don't qualify, when not even Iron Man is considered to qualify under current standards.

The standard is strict as ****, one of the most strict ratings on site.

I have an extraordinarily hard time believing this is due to the standards themselves over simple bad profiles.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Then you will understand why Aizen and Kisuke don't qualify, when not even Iron Man is considered to qualify under current standards.

The standard is strict as ****, one of the most strict ratings on site.

I read his comics, I have done my research. I did flip my table when seeing his rating (and how we don't have any combat intelligence for him, that thing felt so minimal).

And much like how i understand Iron Man, I also understand Aizen and Kisuke getting the rating. Even if its strict as ****, Aizen and Kisuke do meet up with it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't like this cherry picking, cause I am still waiting for the counter of the fact I pointed out that it was still up to Aizen and Kisuke to understand the technology being implemented to make it work (ranging from tests, seeing what worked and what didn't, etc., that's how most of the plot began), with the Soul King Fragment just being a fuel source. I was just saying you can apply this exact logic to characters who have done similar things.

See, the thing is

That doesn't matter for a true Supergenius. The moment you need a specific power source, one you yourself can't invent from scratch, is the moment you stop qualifying for the rating.

The battery itself isn't the reason it's 3-A. This is simply the false assumption Deagon makes despite it being debunked.

The SK fragments themselves aren't 3-A, and are not stated to be the reason the Hogyoku is 3-A. The Hogyoku is 3-A due to Aizen's Intelligence, the only reason the Hogyoku can even reality warp is due to Aizen's intellect. Aizen gave it these abilities. Aizen being able to take esoteric substances, and combine them to make a 3-A object is the feat here.

I have an extraordinarily hard time believing this is due to the standards themselves over simple bad profiles.

The tiering of the power source is irrelevant, as ultimately, the sheer fact it can turn your subconscious desires to reality is reality warping tech. However, the existence of this specific power source instantly make it so that it doesn't qualify.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I read his comics, I have done my research. I did flip my table when seeing his rating (and how we don't have any combat intelligence for him, that thing felt so minimal).

And much like how i understand Iron Man, I also understand Aizen and Kisuke getting the rating. Even if its strict as ****, Aizen and Kisuke do meet up with it.

please don't derail the thread with these comments

The tiering of the power source is irrelevant, as ultimately, the sheer fact it can turn your subconscious desires to reality is reality warping tech. However, the existence of this specific power source instantly make it so that it doesn't qualify.

I mean, are all Hogyoku shards with souls poured into them 3-A power sources now? It can only even get to that level because of Aizen, and again you gotta explain what the minimum for creating 3-A technology is, then.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Like we have pointed out: Its all just a fuel source, not the main reason for it working, Aizen and Kisuke still needed to make tests and explain how it works (especially to make the plot happen, like Aizen knowing that if he uses his spiritual energy which he measures as being twice above a Captain's, he can reawaken it and made more powerful Arrancars, which threw off Soul Society, just an example).

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No one cares about Iron Man can we keep the discussion on track whataboutisms are just gonna clog the thread

 

[Deagonx]

Look, we don't need to go in circles. One side clearly believes the reliance on a specific power source is disqualifying and the other does not. We should seek more staff input to settle the tie. Bleach aside, this is more of a question of our Intelligence standards, who would be the best people to tag to determine that?

 

[Arcker123]

See, the thing is

That doesn't matter for a true Supergenius. The moment you need a specific power source, one you yourself can't invent from scratch, is the moment you stop qualifying for the rating.

Where in the page does it say this?

Also this is absurd, a character wouldn't get supergenius for creating a 2-A timeline nuke if they didn't invent the elements like Iron that compose it?

The tiering of the power source is irrelevant, as ultimately, the sheer fact it can turn your subconscious desires to reality is reality warping tech. However, the existence of this specific power source instantly make it so that it doesn't qualify.

Show me a scan calling it a power source? Again this argument misunderstands the context of the feat that I outlined.

Also yes the tiering matters because it's a defeater to the claim it's even a power source in the first place.

 

[KillerNerd007]

See, the thing is

That doesn't matter for a true Supergenius. The moment you need a specific power source, one you yourself can't invent from scratch, is the moment you stop qualifying for the rating.

Sadly, the Soul King Fragment was never said to be the reason for why the Hogyoku can do all of that, its all specifically Aizen and Kisuke's intellectual power, as I detailed, they still need to comprehend and understand the tech, much like how in my example, Iron Man can create a suit of armor from Celestial Tech and made it better as he included his Iron Man weaponry. A fuel source (in this case a Soul King Fragment) won't work to what its specific purpose is if the characters don't make a structure for it to work (fuel with cars, plutonium with nukes, and there is probably a shit ton more examples that I can pull from).

please don't derail the thread with these comments


I mean, are all Hogyoku shards with souls poured into them 3-A power sources now? It can only even get to that level because of Aizen

Not trying to derail, just trying to show my argument with an example that I can also express it with. I don't want people to get tired of my "Soul King Fragment for Hogyoku is like Plutonium for a nuclear bomb in the Manhattan Project" analogy (thouh i think we'll stay more on topic wiht that one).

 

[Arcker123]

Look, we don't need to go in circles. One side clearly believes the reliance on a specific power source is disqualifying and the other does not. We should seek more staff input to settle the tie. Bleach aside, this is more of a question of our Intelligence standards, who would be the best people to tag to determine that?

No it's not.

The problem is that you've misrepresented the context of the feat in ways that have been debunked. The Hogyoku was not composed of Soul King fragments, it simply absorbed them from Rangiku. The fact the Hogyoku was able to exist prior to even having SK parts is a debunk for the claim it's powered by or made of it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also this is absurd, a character wouldn't get supergenius for creating a 2-A timeline nuke if they didn't invent the elements like Iron that compose it?

Yep.

See these assholes

Edit: And again, Iron Man himself is not Supergenius, even with tier 1 tech.

 

[Deagonx]

Soul King Fragment for Hogyoku is like Plutonium for a nuclear bomb in the Manhattan Project

I don't agree. The nuclear bomb wasn't something that they just poured random substances into until something worked. It was explicitly designed based on plutonium, from a thorough understanding of how they could take advantage of that substance in order to create a sufficiently large explosion. I don't believe this is analogous to the Hogyoku.

No it's not.

Cool. There's no benefit to going in circles. I think you're mistaken and you think I'm mistaken. Do you have anyone you'd like me to ping to review this further?

 

[Deceived3596]

Look, we don't need to go in circles. One side clearly believes the reliance on a specific power source is disqualifying and the other does not. We should seek more staff input to settle the tie. Bleach aside, this is more of a question of our Intelligence standards, who would be the best people to tag to determine that?

Here's our knowledgeable members for Intelligence.

I would recommend pinging @Elizhaa and @Dereck03, not entirely sure about Ant since he doesn't regularly delve into Bleach related topics, and honestly, with some of the stuff he was said about the series, I don't see trust him being a neutral arbiter for this subject. But that's ultimately up to you, I can't force you either way.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Ant since he doesn't regularly delve into Bleach related topics, and honestly, with some of the stuff he was said about the series, I don't see trust him being a neutral arbiter for this subject. But that's ultimately up to you, I can't force you either way.

Ant himself is who gave them EG, btw. Even all the way back to before the verse got properly revised.

 

[LordTracer]

Edit: And again, Iron Man himself is not Supergenius, even with tier 1 tech.

That’s less because he doesn’t qualify and more because Tony’s page is outdated and really bad

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That’s less because he doesn’t qualify and more because Tony’s page is outdated and really bad

he never qualified in the first place, that's the thing, there's been a lot of debate for him over the years

 

[Deagonx]

@Elizhaa @Dereck03 @Antvasima

We are having trouble with an intelligence related feat, determining whether it qualifies for Supergenius. This is the OP's explanation, and here are the responses from the four moderators who have reviewed it thus far. Please help us settle the 2-2 tiebreak.

I believe that Aizen and Kisuke do this with their creation of the Hogyoku, a device that is stated to warp reality on the level of the entire Bleach world, which we accept to be composed of several universes (3-A to Low 2-C Structures). Scans in Sandbox, Thanks Damage.

Since Aizen and Kisuke can use their inventions to literally warp reality according to their wishes, they should have Supergenius intelligence.

I would not agree with this. According to the novels the Hogyoku are made by fragments of the Soul King, which is what grants them their power. As seen in this scan Aizen kept feeding his Hogyoku more and more souls but failed to perfect it, only succeeding when he took Urahara's Hogyoku and fed it to his own.

What we'd expect of someone of Supergenius intelligence is that their understanding of technology is so great that they can just construct 3-A technology through raw intellect. Using a fragment of a incredibly powerful being to create a failed wish granting device that only worked when they fed it hundreds of souls as well as another failed wish granting device doesn't really pass inspection for me, personally.

As I understand it, the SK fragments by themselves don't inherently grant nor possess Reality Warping or fate altering abilities. The Hōgyoku does.

Aizen and Kisuke reached these abilities through their own ingenuity. The SK fragment in this case seems, to me at least, like nothing more than a power source.
For instance, if we had a generic genius scientist character who devised some insane Supergenius level technology, but achieved said tech with the help of an outside energy source, I don't see how that would invalidate the intelligence feat.

Likewise, them initially failing to perfect the Hōgyoku doesn't mean much. Again, circling back to generic scientist-kun for a sec, if a character fails to achieve some insane SG-qualifying technology, but had to go through an arduous trail and error process to get there, they'd still be a SG. Not only is it a very common trope for scientists, it's also a thing IRL. Science is all about trial and error. We rarely get things right the first time, and this goes for even the most ingenious among us.

So, yeah, all in all, I'm in the same boat as Tracer.

Ngl I’m not seeing the validity of the argument against it being Supergenius, so I’m in agreement with the OP here.

So, there's a reason why Supergenius is such a contested rating and still to this day many want to revise it, because it's actual bullshit

difficult to qualify for it. In my experience, this is by design and intent as a way to separate "cosmic intellects" from those that barely enter it.

Unfortunately for Bleach, Deagon here is absolutely correct. Even among all the scans brought for Aizen's and Urahara's intellectual prowess, the best they could get is a "possibly Supergenius" because their feat technologically prowess feat involves in essence a extremely esoteric power battery that they themselves didn't even make, they just made the engine around it, and they still need more power to truly do what they want it to do. That's not a Supergenius level intellect as the site currently defines it.

 

[Loyd]

Yep.

See these assholes

Edit: And again, Iron Man himself is not Supergenius, even with tier 1 tech.

Honestly Aizen smarter than the totality of the mind flayer collective

 

[KillerNerd007]

I don't agree. The nuclear bomb wasn't something that they just poured random substances into until something worked. It was explicitly designed based on plutonium, from a thorough understanding of how they could take advantage of that substance in order to create a sufficiently large explosion. I don't believe this is analogous to the Hogyoku.

Aizen and Kisuke didn't also just grab a Soul King Fragment and "boom Hogyoku was created" nah they still needed to make it work, put it through tests to see how it worked, what it can and can't do (Aizen literally found a loop hole with the thing), much like the Nukes. Your argument stems from that the Hogyoku is dereived from the Soul King Fragment, which was never stated to be the case, the analogy of it being like plutonium for a nuclear bomb is actually strong in basis.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Honestly Aizen smarter than the totality of the mind flayer collective

 

[Arcker123]

Yep.

See these assholes

I don't see how the defeats my argument.

If it were literally true that using iron to make tier 2 tech disqualifies you from having it, literally no tech in fiction could qualify, or less extreme, half the idiots as examples on the page like Rick Sanchez.

Cool. There's no benefit to going in circles. I think you're mistaken and you think I'm mistaken. Do you have anyone you'd like me to ping to review this further?

You can't determine if the feat qualifies if you're wrong about what the feat is .

The point is you're wrong about the context, and have been repeatedly shown to be wrong with no argument. You're just stonewalling a part of the debate if you don't concede on this specific point.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, your disagreement is noted. The staff members I pinged will help resolve the matter.

 

[Arcker123]

Actual stonewalling.

This is an important part of the debate that you're trying to prevent from continuing, we can't get an actual evaluation of how the feat applies to standards if its not agreed upon what the feat actually is.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't see how the defeats my argument.

If it were literally true that using iron to make tier 2 tech disqualifies you from having it, literally no tech in fiction could qualify, or less extreme, half the idiots as examples on the page like Rick Sanchez.

The mind flayers made star system-spanning empires with tech capable of nuking 2-A multiverses in a verse where it's still pseudo-medieval, and it still didn't qualify for SG my guy, I'm trying to show you how bs the standards are