Issues with Void Manipulation and Nonexistence (Staff only)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I like Dargoo' blog.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks. I suppose that it can probably be used then.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So, I think there isn't any more objections. Could someone unlock the Nonexistent Physiology and Void Manip pages and I'll add in the new versions?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Done

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Finished. There shouldn't need to be a massive amount of editing right off the bat but I'd reccomend editing Materialistic into most characters who are just simply nonexistent and not some sort of primodial void that predates ideas or whatnot.

 

[Elizhaa]

I was busy so a quick question: Is idealistic Nonexistent Physiology reserved for Tier 1-A?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The blog is pretty much as happy as I am going to be with it. I still disagree with the highest level of NEP being included, but I'm not going to fight over it.

 

[Antoniofer]

I was busy so a quick question: Is idealistic Nonexistent Physiology reserved for Tier 1-A?

Apparently no, although is still a little paradoxical for my standards. But for make it less complicated, I think anyone that predate existance itself would qualify.

 

[Elizhaa]

Assaltwaffle, in any case, abilities like Nonexistent Interaction exist and can limit the case of NLF.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Just so everyone is clear, if you're basing such conceptual non existence on Platonic Forms or any high form of universal abstracts, such forms/concepts predate existence itself and govern literally everything conceivable to a level equal to our tier 0; there is no way to get around them aside from "Lolfiction".

If you're fine with that, so be it, but I feel like y'all should know what you're basing it around.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Thought we were going the Concept Manip route with Pseudo-Platonic (as in, can be sub 1-A)

 

[The_Causality]

Since the pages as been updated, i guess everything is done?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. Do the rest of you think that we should close this thread?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not much discussion is occurring and the changes are in place so I don't mind too much.

 

[Antoniofer]

I think that the main issue is resolved. If any, another thread to properly add characters to the categories, but is kinda unnecessary.

 

[The_Causality]

If we have added the draft of Dragoo on the actuals page, i guess that "Pseudo-idealistic" characters are actually evaluated as Idealistic ?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I do agree that Pseudo-Idealistic should probably be a thing, for sub 1-A non-existants with idealistic qualities (like apparently Shar if the thread is anything to believe). Not sure if that is a subject for another thread, though.

 

[The_Causality]

bump

 

[Antoniofer]

I though we were done here, changes were already applied.

 

[The_Causality]

There is still the discussion about a sub category of Idealistic Non existence for Characters below tier 1

 

[Elizhaa]

The category of Idealistic is not restricted to 1-A or tier, The Causality.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't see why we need "Psuedo-Idealistic", as the page already explains there is various scopes of the word 'existence'. Preceeding 1-A ideal concepts would just be the highest imaginable scope of that ability.

 

[Elizhaa]

For Type 2, I didn't catch the conceptual part:

"The lack of absolutely everything, including presence on a conceptual framework of any degree." is this saying that Conceptual Manipulation, even Type 1 and 2 as emphasize on degree, is useless because if it is then it is a No limit Fallacy by definition? This part should be revised or removed in this case.

 

[Andytrenom]

I would guess a conceptual manipulation that works on a greater scale than the framework they are absent from would affect them. That's how basically any other NLFesque ability would be treated.

 

[Elizhaa]

I would guess a conceptual manipulation that works on a greater scale than the framework they are absent from would affect them. That's how basically any other NLFesque ability would be treated.

There are characters that have feats of affecting with conceptual manipulation. Saying, ithese idealistic characterics: "The lack of absolutely everything, including presence on a conceptual framework of any degree" is defintively NLF.

 

[Andytrenom]

In that case it may be. Afaik even a 1-A realm shouldn't be beyond conceptual framework of every level.

 

[Antoniofer]

Question: is there any difference between a Primal Void of a verse with single univer than one with X amounts of universes? At the end, anything and everything, matter, emotion or concept should have appeared from it, regardless of the number of current universes that splitted from it.

Not sure if it have something to with the thread, just curious about it.

 

[Elizhaa]

In that case it may be. Afaik even a 1-A realm shouldn't be beyond conceptual framework of any degree.

I agree.

 

[Elizhaa]

Having Idealist Nonexistent Physiology would synonymous to Abstract Existence (Type 1; embodies a nonexistent void) which definition is still conceptual in nature.

 

[The_Causality]

Don't agree

I explain why later

 

[Elizhaa]

Don't agree
I explain why later

Even Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) not applying to them is a big no-no. The concept of nonexistence at best is a False-platonic concept or Type Concept 2. Also, Void Users have Nonexistent Interaction and others have Nonexistent Interaction anyway so at this point the "beyond conceptual framework of every level or degree." need to be removed here

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Nedge1000

The concept of nonexistence is whatever the verse's abstract universals are. Nothing dictates that it is, by default, Type 2. Under Plato and verses that use true Platonism, it would be Type 1. Under Plato and verses that use Platonism to a certain extent, it would be Type 2, and so on and so forth.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Nedge1000
The concept of nonexistence is whatever the verse's abstract universals are. Nothing dictates that it is, by default, Type 2. Under Plato and verses that use true Platonism, it would be Type 1. Under Plato and verses that use Platonism to a certain extent, it would be Type 2, and so on and so forth.

It was a hypothetical case, in fiction, most of the time, nonexistence tends to be Type 2. In tier 1-A, it tends to be Type 1.

 

[The_Causality]

Well, assalt said everything

Anyway there exist many tier 2 with Idealistic like D&D and UKG

 

[Elizhaa]

Well, assalt said everything
Anyway there exist many tier 2 with Idealistic like D&D and UKG

abstract = concept

@Nedge1000

The concept of nonexistence is whatever the verse's abstract universals are. Nothing dictates that it is, by default, Type 2. Under Plato and verses that use true Platonism, it would be Type 1. Under Plato and verses that use Platonism to a certain extent, it would be Type 2, and so on and so forth.

 

[Elizhaa]

My point is about "The lack of absolutely everything, including presence on a conceptual framework of any degree", the part about the conceptual framework of any degree should be removed. Especially since nonexistence itself is a concept and part of conceptual framework. Saying it is not is false and give characters the ability is NLF.

 

[The_Causality]

That doesn't change the fact that characters can be Conceptualy Non existent, what is your point?

 

[Elizhaa]

That doesn't change the fact that characters can be Conceptualy Non existent, what is your point?

My point they are just that and that would give Abstract Existence (Type 1; Embodies a void) as Noncexitence is still a concept.

So, they won't lack conceptual framework to any degree make no sense since nonexistence is a concept and abilties like Conceptual Manipulation will work.

So, this part should removed:

"The lack of absolutely everything, including presence on a conceptual framework of any degree"

 

[The_Causality]

But this give them a sort of Resistance if they lacks of Actual Concepts

If you have no Concept to manipulate, how Conceptual Manipulation is supposed to work?

If we treat A complete lacks of Concept as character who have a concept, this concept is supposed to be "immunised" to Basic Conceptual since his concept is "non existent"

Basically you said "The Concept of à Non existent Concept"

 

[DMB_1]

That doesn't change the fact that characters can be Conceptualy Non existent, what is your point?

My point they are just that and that would give Abstract Existence (Type 1; Embodies a void) as Noncexitence is still a concept.

But then you would go in full cirlce and do "the concept of a concept of a concept of a concept..."