Issues with Void Manipulation and Nonexistence (Staff only)

[Elizhaa]

Which is why I gave a much simple version of Non-Existence.
It really doesn't have to be complex.

If you want "Nonexistence on a conceptual level" why not create "Transcendant Physiology"?

Or "Beyond-Conceptual Physiology"

Transcendent physiology exist as Beyond-Dimensional existence and Higher-Dimensional existence page.

Beyond-Conceptual physiology is a Tier 0 things only. In fact the current definition doesn't required the transcendence of all concept as charaters can have limitation and be tier 0. I went more depth in Tier 0 defintion change above. Only a few characters like the creator from Umeniko would qualify.

 

[The_Causality]

That why make limits like "Higher Dimensional Concept manip" is a good compromise if you want to avoid NLF, then, i agree with Tier 1 INE =/= Tier 2 INE. I agree with Concept manip (Type 2/3/4) can't work without feat or Higher D concepts due to my reason stated above but i diagree to treat Concep manip able to affect Conceptually NE if both are in the same scale due to my reason above again. Now i want to know the opinion of peoples, i think i've said everything i wanted.

 

[Udlmaster]

Nice, but do you see what I am getting at?

 

[Elizhaa]

The Causality, Type 2 just got a different state of conceptual existence. It does not mean it is higher dimensional conceptually

 

[The_Causality]

The Causality, Type 2 just got different state of conceptual existence. It dies not mean it is higher dimensional.

If i understand, your option is:

• Type 3/4 Concep Manip can't affect a Conceptual NE

• Type 2 Concept manip can affect Conceptual NE

?

 

[Elizhaa]

The Causality, Type 2 just got different state of conceptual existence. It dies not mean it is higher dimensional.

If i understand, your option is:

• Type 3/4 Concep Manip can't affect a Conceptual NE

• Type 2 Concept manip can affect Conceptual NE

?

Type 2 would affect them. Type 2 nonexistent physiology can embodies Type 3 void concept in fiction, in this cases Type 3 conceptual manipulation can affect them. Type 4 Conceptual manipulation will not have any effect.

 

[DMB_1]

If you are the literal absence of a type 2 concept, Type 2 conceptual manipulation won't work on you, unless you can manipulate an even greater conceptual framework, or one higher fro your dimensional plane.

 

[Elizhaa]

If you are the literal absence of a type 2 concept, Type 2 conceptual manipulation won't work on you, unless you can manipulate an even greater conceptual framework, or one higher fro your dimensional plane.

Only Tier 1-A and above lack Type 2 concepts as they transcend them.

 

[The_Causality]

I agree with you if they have at least feats, we can't said that they can affect Conceptual Non existent if they never demonstrate a conceptual manipulation on a the scale needed to affect them, like "Destroy the Concept of a destroyed Concept" this is overestimate all concept manip for every Concep manipulator which is bad (Plus most of Conceptually Non Existent characters are via a Type 2 Concep lacks)

So my solution is assuming that Peoples who can manipulate concept on an Higher D scale can affect them. without feat, it's a no

 

[DMB_1]

I mean "type 2" as in "Type 2 within your dimensional plane".

Naturally, Sheogorath's type 2 Conceptual Manipulation is far superior to Vecna's type 2, as one manipulates a type 2 concept on a 6D scale, while the other only in a 4D one.

 

[Elizhaa]

You cannot treat nonexistence as a higher dimension conceptual concept it is not. It scale with your dimensional tiering

 

[DMB_1]

Yes, and naturally, if you are nonexistent within the concepts of your own dimensional tiering, such concepts wouldn't be able to affect you. That's what Dodo's trying to say.

 

[The_Causality]

You cannot treat nonexistence as a higher dimension conceptual concept it is not. It ia scale with your dimensional tiering

I never treated Non existent as HD Concept, just that in the same Dimensional Scale, even with Type 2, you can't affect Non Existent on a conceptual scale without feats, they can be affected by higher dimensional characters of him (Like 4D Conceptual Non Existent < 5D Concep Manip)

 

[Kaltias]

Someone lacking a type 2 concept on their dimensional level would be immune to conceptual manip up to said dimensional level, DMB is correct

 

[The_Causality]

Someone lacking a type 2 concept on their dimensional level would be immune to conceptual manip up to said dimensional level, DMB is correct

That what a said during 2 week OvO

 

[Elizhaa]

Someone lacking a type 2 concept on their dimensional level would be immune to conceptual manip up to said dimensional level, DMB is correct

I will be honest, I never saw a character lack a Type 2 Concept on their dimensional as a person who has been seen thousands of profiles where I read a large of Tier 1 and 2's profile.

I have seen resistance to Conceptual Manipulation to extreme. It is definitely better to judge this feat on a case by case basis rather than just give award the abilties from a definition.

 

[The_Causality]

This characters is a good exemple of Type 2 NE, Same for Kriemhild Gretche, you know there is not a lot of Tier 2 with this kind of NE (i know at least 4 lol) but like Kalt, DMB and i, we can't assume that on tthe same dimensional scale, a type 2 Concep user can't affect a Conceptually Non Existent.

Well, i guess i've gived my opinion about this, i'm done

my job is done

 

[Kaltias]

There is Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen, and I doubt that she is the only instance in fiction.

The type 2 concept of "nonexistence" would probably be affected by standard type 2 concept manip however

 

[Elizhaa]

This characters is a good exemple of Type 2 NE, Same for Kriemhild Gretche, you know there is not a lot of Tier 2 with this kind of NE (i know at least 4 lol) but like Kalt, DMB and i, we can't assume that on tthe same dimensional scale, a type 2 Concep user can't affect a Conceptually Non Existent. Well, i guess i've gived my opinion about this, i'm done

my job is done

My point is embodying nothingness doesn't mean that you lack a concept to be affected on your dimensional scale.

Shar (Dungeons and Dragons) can be affected by the gods equal to her or greater without any higher dimesnional hax which are numbering over 20. Kriemhild Gretchen got a mabye and even then her feat listed as resistance to Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[The_Causality]

No one said that buddy, we talk about People conceptually Nothing, not people who embody the concept of nothing, both are different, Shar can be affected because they have feats without that, we can't assume that everyione can because this is an NLF (even basics spell can affect NE in D&D)

And nope, Kriem has been erased, she got a resistence because she have no concept (in an extend) to manipulate but she/he no longer need this since the New definition of NE, it's like Resist to soul manip because you don't have soul, same logic for kriem

 

[Kaltias]

UKG is nonexistent down to the concept, coming from the guy who made the CRT for it.

 

[Elizhaa]

I get characters can be a void and existed in a state of nonexistence. But saying characters has no concept on their dimensional scale from is an entirely different case.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Having feats of beings affecting them shouldn't take away that ability, that more speaks towards the capabilities of the characters that can affect them.

You wouldn't remove Intangibility from a character if another being was able to affect them.

 

[Elizhaa]

Having feats of beings affecting them shouldn't take away that ability, that more speaks towards the capabilities of the characters that can affect them.
You wouldn't remove Intangibility from a character if another being was able to affect them.

Of course yes, but absolutely don't give them an unproven ability or resistance.

 

[The_Causality]

@Nedge Yes. but they exist, no need to complicate more stuff with "Destroy the concept of a concept of a concept.... it's counterproductive)

@Mr. Bambu Exactly.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Nedge Yes. but they exist, no need to complicate more stuff with "Destroy the concept of a concept of a concept.... it's counterproductive)
@Mr. Bambu Exactly.

I rather accurate than give unproven ability or resistance.

For example, does Skaar does not even have resistance to Conceptual Manipulation, she is an abstract embodiment of void thus a concept so why say that she has no concept on a dimensional scale?

No feat show that she lack a concept in verse. So, no ability definition should award her this.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

From what I've heard, Shar actually does resist conceptual manipulation.

 

[The_Causality]

By Definition, he got a resistance to Concept Manipulation because he has no concept to manipulate in his dimensional scale, it's obvious.

 

[Elizhaa]

From what I've heard, Shar actually does resist conceptual manipulation.

Not on her profile. It also does not mean she lacks a concept.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I'm aware.

Bambu mentioned that she resists it from other deities.

 

[Elizhaa]

From what I've heard, Shar actually does resist conceptual manipulation.

Not on her profile. It also does not mean she lacks a concept.

I guess ZacharyGrossman273 forgot to add the resistance to her profile and other deities' profiles that he made - I can fix these with additions as clean up. This fact further proves that she has a concept.

 

[The_Causality]

He resist to Concept stuff because he is conceptually nothing, no need to rewrite every resistance he should have because of his state, same principle for non corporeal who resist stuffs if the user can't interact with it.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Nedge1000 There will be future D&D CRTs likely covering this. Shar might even get fully conceptual nonexistence from what I've heard as well.

 

[Elizhaa]

He resist to Concept stuff because he is conceptually nothing, no need to rewrite every resistance he should have because of his state, same principle for non corporeal who resist stuffs if the user can't interact with it.

conceptually nothing = abstract = still a concept.

 

[Elizhaa]

conceptually nonexistent is not lack of Concept

 

[The_Causality]

conceptually nothing = abstract = still a concept.

I talk about Non existent characters who lacks concept nothing less, nothing more

We already answered this above, i don't want to copy past this, basically, everythings have a concept but if you want affect Characters who are Conceptually NE (if you are on the same scale)

You need an Higher D Concep manip like Kalt already said, we don't assume that characters who can destroy type 2/3/4 Concep can affect this kind of NE due to the reason stated above.

 

[Elizhaa]

ShadowWarrior1999, technically, she already has it.

She just does not lack all concept at her dimensional level

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

No, what I actually meant to say is that she could be getting the "I lack a concept" thing just like UKG.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not to derail this, but yes, resistances are being worked on. D&D is big. But basically, every deity is totally immune to the deities of lesser Divine Rank than them. I'd have to look up Shar's exact rank but I do know she is a Greater Deity, meaning she's above rather a lot of deities, demon lords (possibly infinite of these), archdevils, etc.

She'd resist Concept Manip.

 

[Elizhaa]

conceptually nothing = abstract = still a concept.

I talk about Non existent characters who lacks concept nothing less, nothing more
We already answered this above, i don't want to copy past this, basically, everythings have a concept but if you want affect Characters who are Conceptually NE (if you are on the same scale)

You need an Higher D Concep manip like Kalt already said, we don't assume that characters who can destroy type 2/3/4 Concep can affect this kind of NE due to the reason stated above.

Someone lacking a type 2 concept on their dimensional level would be immune to conceptual manip up to said dimensional level, DMB is correct

It is not the same topic. Someone lacking a type 2 concept is not = Conceptual NE as Conceptual NE is still a concept