Issues with Void Manipulation and Nonexistence (Staff only)

[Assaltwaffle]

Well I'd change "non-existent even in such a system" to "absent from such a system". Being totally and utterly gone beyond even the most basic conceptual framework. Even with TES' stuff I still personally don't view that Type as legitimate or obtainable by a character however, and Matt and I have pretty much come to an impasse.

If everyone wants to accept Type 3 as something that can happen because fiction, I'll just keep to myself.

 

[Andytrenom]

While type 3 is something I've never personally come across, I could definitely see it being a thing in fiction.

I think featuring it should be okay.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think nonexistence as a concept in general is silly but fiction plays around with it far too much to ignore it.

That said being "nonexistent from existence and nonexistence" is even more silly, although in verses where there is a strong focus on the binary nature of the two and stuff that exist outside of it I can SORT of get where it comes from.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It is kinda silly, but it is a legitimate thing in TES. "Absence", "Removed from" would perhaps be better terms.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Absence", "Removed from" would perhaps be better terms.

I agree with that very much.

Nonexistent in most fiction is more along the lines of "existing outside of conventional existence". So while they are practically nonexistent depending on the perspective, you can still prove that they exist in some aspect, thus bypassing the paradox.

Sort of how like an 'omniscient being' could be all-powerful from the persepctive of a human living on a planet, but only miniscule compared to stuff that is on a higher level of existence .

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, a lot of powers are very silly. Look at Acausality Type 5. But yeah, Nonexistence is definitely one of them that doesn't exactly align with our perspective. I know a lot of characters get it from just continuing to be despite completely being erased.

 

[Antvasima]

So are the conclusions here that we should go with types 1 and 3 in Matthew's version, or do we need to adjust somewhat to accommodate Assaltwaffle's version as well?

 

[Andytrenom]

I'm not sure if I've properly understood the requirements for type 2. Would being EEd and still being able to influence things in this state count as type 2?

 

[Elizhaa]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to somewhat organise our work here?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I can draft a page for Non-Existent Physiology on the blog I put the Voidhax page.

I'll also clear out a lot of the complicated philosophical jargon from the Void page I prepped and just clearly adress possible uses of the ability.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Elizhaa]

So are the conclusions here that we should go with types 1 and 3 in Matthew's version, or do we need to adjust somewhat to accommodate Assaltwaffle's version as well?

Adjustment to accommodated Assaltwaffle's version looks fine.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...id_Manipulation_Rework#Nonexistent Physiology

I have drafted a page for nonexistent physiology based on Matt's, Kal's and Assault's comments. It's mostly verbatim what Matt put with some small edits based on critique, as well as some additions from myself such as new names for the Types alongside comparisons to binary to make it easier to digest.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

I would appreciate input from the other staff members in this thread regarding whether it is considered acceptable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The blog looks great to me.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that it looks fine, but I am the wrong person to ask.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think the list analogy explained things better than the 1 and 0 thing. Also weren't there supposed to be 3 types?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I thought it was agreed that Type 2 just Abstract Existence, and there was a bunch of people who agreed on removing it including Matt.

 

[Antvasima]

If the other staff members do not reply again, you can ask them to do so via their message walls.

 

[AKM sama]

Blog looks fine to use.

I believe there is a typing error here in the bolded part:

Nonexistent Interaction: Since the user of this ability can treat "nothingness" as if it was a physical object they could manipulate, the ca, in turn, affect beings that do not exist given that they also have the ability to perceive them.

 

[The_Causality]

Absolutely agree with this Blog but I have a last question

• How the hell we can affect Idealistic Non-Existent characters without feat interaction? I mean what abilities can work against them? Because in my point of view, Characters who have this type of NE are almost invulnerable.

 

[Antoniofer]

I can hardly imaginate someone with that type of NEP without being Transcendental.

 

[The_Causality]

according to the description, It seem that INEP can be possible even if you are not Transcendental.

 

[Antoniofer]

I just can't think of one that isn't that level, but as is said above, is pretty much a paradoxical state. I known there's several beings whose origin takes place in the Primordial Void, but they are treated no different than several other gods of the same level.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask the other administrators who posted here earlier to respond again via their message walls.

 

[Elizhaa]

You can ask the other administrators who posted here earlier to respond again via their message walls.

I did so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Elizhaa]

Sorry, Ant, I thought this was the Non-physical Interaction instead. I will contact the Admin again.

 

[Elizhaa]

I did now.

 

[Dark649]

The Blog is also fine to me to be used.

 

[Kaltias]

Blog looks fine to me as well

Absolutely agree with this Blog but I have a last question

Considering that it's nonexistent on a 1-A level, pretty sure that the answer is "you can't", unless you are higher on the 1-A scale

 

[The_Causality]

Okay i start to think that a third type can be fine, there exist characters who exist as primordial void but not on a 1-A scale, we can maybe create a "Pseudo-Idealistic" NEP for characters who have the same description as INEP but aren't transcendantal

Just a suggestion tho

 

[DMB_1]

I agree with Dodo.

Making it only for 1-A is a bit too restrictive to me (unless we do like we did with Conceptual manipulation so Pseudo-Platonic and Platonic).

 

[Antoniofer]

Aside of Oblivion, Pralaya and Mother Night, what other character fall in that category? And what other character fall in that category that isn't High 1-B or above?

 

[The_Causality]

Nil (Her Tears Were My Light) and maybe Shar (Dungeons and Dragons), No mention to characters like Kriemhild Gretche who are Conceptualy Non-Existent (but at first existed)

 

[Antoniofer]

I see, but, I understand Shar, and maybe Kriemhild, but I have my doubts about Nil, it sounds more like the lack of space, or time-space, but beyond that I do not assosiate it with Ideal NEP. But that is just me, I do known nothing about the verse.

 

[The_Causality]

Well, I know it's not the thread to talk about, but yes, Nil is Conceptually NE since she is the Primordial void before all concepts (including time and space). It's just a clarification, sorry if I derail a bit.

Anyway, a "Pseudo" Idealistic NEP is a good idea i think

 

[Antvasima]

I would prefer to wait for Matthew and Assaltwaffle.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

but what if Shar is 1-A ergo all of D&D is 1-A how about it boys

I agree it isn't just a 1-A ability, but it'd be... incredibly rare. Though I'm sure once it becomes deemed overpowered people will search it out in verses better than a drug finding K9 unit.