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Issues with Void Manipulation and Nonexistence (Staff only)

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Dargoo Faust said:
I never said that you didn't question interaction in some aspects; my entire argument was that to have voidhax Nonexistent Interaction is needed, which is why I was confused when you started bringing up broad fictional trends.
Saying I'm an elitist or acting like one is insulting to me. However since I can see that wasn't your intent I apologize for seeing it like that.

I disagree, however I think there was misunderstandings on both sides.
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No worries, it's all in good spirits and apologies again if that's what I sounded like. As I said, my main point was to clear the possibility of this misunderstanding (particularly on the interaction bit), nothing more. I don't want to shift the revision in any direction - in my own way, I'm simply worried about the community.

But as I pointed before, I'll make the one above this my last reply on this talk and go along with what the staff decides on the thread, lest this branch of the discussion may delay the thread proper without the need to either. Good luck!
 
I would say that the most common application of Void Manipulation is Destruction, not EE (there's few user that do not erase souls for example). Just that little note.

All those walls of text made me lost tracks of the current situation of the thread. Aside from Void Manipulation giving you the power to interact with Nonexistent beings (that it seems Fate agreed with), what else is being added?
 
Look, I can come off as very snooty and haughty at times, but this is ultimatly me getting giddy about a bunch of philosophy reading I did on Wikipedia. I'm really sorry if me getting into that mindset too much was enough for you to get worried about elitism in the wiki, that's the absolute last thing I want to do and it is partially why I took offense to the mention of it.

Best of wishes to you too. If you want to continue discussing on message walls mine's open, I promise I'll be much more amiable off the revision itself.

And yeah, I think I'll leave that specific line of discussion alone; ultimatly I just want to get an idea of what additions we should make to the page. If people don't think the revision is necessary that will be that, I suppose.
 
I agree with the first three TLDR points that our current Void Manip definition can be expanded and it should contain more abilities. I also agree that our qualifications for nonexistence need to be improved, our current types 1 and 2 seem unnecessary.

But I agree with Fate's first comment in that having shown one application of an ability doesn't grant the user a different variation or possible use of it. If a character can manipulate non-existence, it doesn't necessarily mean he can manipulate a non-existent being. Non-existence itself and a non-existent being that has a will of its own are two completely different things. It's a very long thread to read so I might be wrong, but from what I'm understanding, Dargoo is saying that the ability to manipulate water should give all waterbenders the power to manipulate a human body(bloodbending) because it is 70% water, which isn't and shouldn't be the case until shown or proven.
 
I'am agree with Matt's new definition of NEP and Kalt about the Type 3/4 of Assault

No idea about Dragoo vs Fate

Anyway this should potentially change all type 1 NEP to Non-Corporeal (If I understood correctly ?) and Type 3 to Type 2 or 3 Non-existence of the new Definition.
 
@AKM I think it's actually just "they have a way to interact with the NE being" as opposed to "They can control the being in the same manner as they can control the void".
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
So I would propose it like this:

1. Conventional Nonexistence: The lack of any conventional existence. Such a character will exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. Such entities can be conceptualized by individuals, but have never existed in a physical or normal metaphysical form, such as a soul.

2. Unconventional Nonexistence: The lack of anything except a presence on a universal abstract conceptual framework, such as Types 1, 2, and 3 as outlined by the Conceptual Manipulation page. If one imagines a metaphysical conceptual "list" of everything that is both existent and nonexistent, such a character would reside on the "nonexistent" section of the list. Such a character is bound only by conception, and has never existed as a possibility, idea, or any lower form.

3. Complete Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything, including presence on a conceptual framework of any degree. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels.

Though I can see why Type 2 might be unecessary. But I agree that a distinction between "nonexistent in relation to what we typically conceive as existence" and "completely nonexistent on all levels" is necessary.
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I personally think that this seems to make sense, but it is not my area, and I haven't had the time and energy to properly analyse all of the responses.
 
The one thing with nonexistence stuff is that one can't become tyoe 1 by definition, and while none come to mind, I'm pretty sure it's not any less likely than the third.
 
I think Matt's suggestion works as well

Though when this goes through i may need help determining what type the native Voidborn of League of Legends have
 
I agree with Matt's proposal as well.
 
AKM sama said:
Dargoo is saying that the ability to manipulate water should give all waterbenders the power to manipulate a human body(bloodbending) because it is 70% water, which isn't and shouldn't be the case until shown or proven.
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what

I never said that. Or implied that. I don't think Void users can "manipulate nonexistent beings", I'm just saying they can INTERACT with them as they can already interact with something that doesn't exist.

Also you can't be 70% nonextistent. It's more like saying someone with water manip can't use their powers on a being made entirely of pure water.

I don't think I properly got my point across and I don't think I will, so I'll just leave it at that.
 
About Matt's suggestion:

Type 1 is fine, but i wouldn't restrict it to "have never existed in a physical or normal metaphysical form", because characters becoming nonexistent in fiction are a thing.

For example, BlackGatomon becomes a nonexistent being after Digivolving into LadyDevimon.

Type 2 is literally Type 1 Abstract Existence, but restricted to conceptual beings instead of abstractions in general. I don't think that it's really necessary.

I don't like the "precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels" in type 3 because it's the same story as omnipotence. You could always keep going on the "Nonexistence" scale, just like you could always keep going on the 1-A scale. Maybe specifying "Within the setting" or something would work
 
Same. Type 3 was for Nonexistence on a transdual 1-A scale I was thinking.

So It could be just Type 1 and Type 3, which would become Type 2?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Same. Type 3 was for Nonexistence on a transdual 1-A scale I was thinking.

So It could be just Type 1 and Type 3, which would become Type 2?
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Ok, then it's fine by me.

Yes
 
There are characters that are "conceptually nonexistent", while not being 1-A/on a 1-A scale. That could be type 2.
 
I am fine with what the other administrators decide.
 
I agree with Kalt. Now....how do we treat interacting with them? Do we treat is as simply non-corporeal and assume those who can hit non-corporeals can hit them? Or do we assume they need something a bit more than that? Just in general.
 
It probaly depends tbh.

Being able to punch a ghost wouldn't be the same as punhing something like a DA Digimon imo, the former lacks a body but has mind and soul, the latter lacks all three of them
 
Non-Physical Interaction is a general term, can damage energy, soul, bodies made out of nothing or abstract beings, better take attention of how does it works, case-by-case.
 
Kaltias' suggestion seems to make sense, yes.
 
"The Void is a manifestation of the unknowable nothingness that lies beyond. It is a force of insatiable hunger, waiting through the eons until its masters, the mysterious Watchers, mark the final time of undoing. To be a mortal touched by this power is to suffer an agonizing glimpse of eternal unreality, enough to shatter even the strongest mind."

"Beyond the material plane, outside and somehow below it, lies the unknowable abyss. It is the realm of the Void, where no mortal or immortal creature may ever walk. It is not necessary to know how such a place ever came to be, nor why—only that it did. The Void is eternal. The Void consumes all. In that place, in the cold, endless dark, all is equal and empty. For timeless eons, there was purity in that fact. There was peace, if such a term could have any meaning there. Then, something changed. Not in the Void realm, but elsewhere. It was existence, it was... something, where before there had been nothing, and its mere presence scraped against the vast, cold, formless entities that drifted in the blackness. Before this, they had not even been fully aware of their own sentience, and yet now they knew that they could not tolerate the presence of this other place; this other-realm of mercurial, overwhelming creation."

What would this be in terms of the new scale?
 
Why is it even being brought up here when we're still discussing the definition?

For the Void page, is the anything that I should edit on my blog?
 
I'd like for us to agree on the types themselves before we do that, unless we've already decided on Matt's proposal.
 
That seems great.

Once I have more feedback on the proposed Void page on the blog linked above I feel like we can talk about types.

That said I don't feel like types are that necessary. The nature of the nonexistence varies greatly depending on what verse you're talking about and giving each character with the power a "type" of nonexistence might be an editing hassle we don't really need. Maybe listing what Kal types as some examples of applications of the power would be nice; but this is just an idea.

On a personal note I feel like most examples of nonexistence in fiction are paradoxes that don't make logical sense. No, not in the "well, it's supposed to not make sense" way but more the "they still exist in many aspects and are able to interact with existing stuff despite not even existing" way. You literally cannot prove true nonexistence as there would be nothing to prove it off of past Word of God, and even in that case that proves some semblance of existence.
 
We would only have two types though.
 
That is true. I don't think it's a big deal past having to comb through and edit a lot of stuff.
 
We don't have to make a project out of it. The changes could be gradual.
 
So from what I'm understanding

Type 1 is someone who isn't real but can exist as an idea. Like an imaginary friend or something.

type 2 is someone who is classified as a non-existent being in his verse but still exists in the system that allows someone to be classified as existent or non-existent.

Type 3 is someone who is non-existent even in such a system

Is this correct?
 
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