Issues with Void Manipulation and Nonexistence (Staff only)

[Antvasima]

Promestein seems to make sense to me.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"The ability to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack any identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction"

I adressed these points in the very first couple of lines on the page, by the way.

Of course "true nonexistence in the philosophical sense" cannot happen in fiction as for it to happen it needs to be described, and thus it exists in some sense. Similar to how 'Omnipotence' as a concept is impossible to logically apply to a character in the abstract sense of the word.

However we're talking about a fictional interpretation of this. For all intents and purposes it's just an ability that makes you harder to interact with within the particular scope of the verse, or impossible to. In the end it's the size of said scope that matters, which we define by dimensions and levels of transcendence over that.

 

[Elizhaa]

"The ability to paradoxically 'exist', yet lack any identifiable traits of existence, or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence'. While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction"
I adressed these points in the very first couple of lines on the page, by the way.

Of course "true nonexistence in the philosophical sense" cannot happen in fiction as for it to happen it needs to be described, and thus it exists in some sense. Similar to how 'Omnipotence' as a concept is impossible to logically apply to a character in the abstract sense of the word.

However we're talking about a fictional interpretation of this. For all intents and purposes it's just an ability that makes you harder to interact with within the particular scope of the verse, or impossible to. In the end it's the size of said scope that matters, which we define by dimensions and levels of transcendence over that.

The additions would help

Type 2 definition still need to be addressed as it is not possible for less than a Tier 0 as shown by DMB's points. Even the strongest Tier 1-A still exist a Conceptual framework compare to tier 0.

 

[Elizhaa]

Ok so the issue here is that we can't say something is conceptually non-existent because platonic concepts are the source of everything so to transcend them is the equivalent of being tier 0? Is that the issue here?

Yes, Only The One from Platonism Philosophy lack concept on any conceptual system so the type 2 definition is wrong as it is giving Tier 0's power to lower tier.

 

[Elizhaa]

I can add the change that I propose and Dargo's change

 

[Antvasima]

Can you summarise the current arguments, and then ask the administrators who have contributed above to comment here again via their message walls?

 

[Elizhaa]

Type 2 definition still need to be addressed as it is not possible for less than a Tier 0 as shown by DMB's points. Even the strongest Tier 1-A still exist a Conceptual framework compare to tier 0.

For Type 2 characters

My solution is changing this text: " The lack of absolutely everything, including presence on a conceptual framework of any degree" to The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level "

I think it would fix the issue.

Dargoo Faust's definition change regarding Iamunanimousinthat's opinions looks fine.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2455230#298

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, although I am afraid that this is not my area. You should preferably ask the other staff members to comment again via their message walls.

 

[Elizhaa]

I already asked earlier and now I just wait, Antvasima

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[DMB_1]

Nedge, you misunderstood:

I was not trying to prove that it's not possible to be a type 2 without being Tier 0. the only thing I was trying to say is that "Not-being" isn't even an Idea in Plato, as it goes against any conceptual framework, even "Being". In fact, "Not Being" kind of fits in our definition of Type 2.

"The One" according to Plotin (not Plato), would transcend everything else in the cosmology, and he is described as such, hence why he would be Tier 0.

The Numidium isn't Tier 0, but he fits the definition for type 2 NE.

 

[Elizhaa]

Nedge, you misunderstood:
I was not trying to prove that it's not possible to be a type 2 without being Tier 0. the only thing I was trying to say is that "Not-being" isn't even an Idea in Plato, as it goes against any conceptual framework, even "Being". In fact, "Not Being" kind of fits in our definition of Type 2.

"The One" according to Plotin (not Plato), would transcend everything else in the cosmology, and he is described as such, hence why he would be Tier 0.

The Numidium isn't Tier 0, but he fits the definition for type 2 NE.

The problem way that Type 2 is described is that characters are non-existent are i conceptual framework of any degree. Even at worse, Tier 1-A existed on 1-A conceptual framework. Even Tier 0, existed on a conceptual framework from our definition


Tier 0: (I miss the old's definition)

0: Absolute Infinity
Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level.


Tier 0: Boundless

High Outerverse level
Characters that far exceed the requirements for Tier 1-A. Such characters will usually stand hierarchically above everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism, the concepts of life and death, etcetera.

 

[DMB_1]

Ok, but why though? Nothing implies they exist on a conceptual framework if they do not exist even as 1-A concepts.

You are basically saying that there is always a concept of a concept of a concept of a concept... Without never ending.

Some characters are simply unbound by concepts, transcend them, or do not exist in the even on a 1-A scale, which qualifies for type 2 NE.

 

[The_Causality]

Like i've already said, no need to make serious stuff, if a characters for exemple Tier 2, lack of Concept because he his non existent on a Conceptual scale, he is just harder to affect, the conceptual manipulation of a tier 2 without feats isn't enough for affect him because his is conceptualy nothing BUT if you have feats or your conceptual hax work on an higher "Dimensional" scale, this work, nothing less, nothing more.

It's like how we treat Basic NE.

 

[Elizhaa]

Ok, but why though? Nothing implies they exist on a conceptual framework if they do not exist even as 1-A concepts.
You are basically saying that there is always a concept of a concept of a concept of a concept... Without never ending.

Some characters are simply unbound by concepts, transcend them, or do not exist in the even on a 1-A scale, which qualifies for type 2 NE.

I am saying there is always a conceptual framework which one exists.

Tier 0 definition was unbound by this conceptual frameworks in the past well not so much even though I am against them. Tier 0, at best, I believe Tier 0 transcend or are non-existent on conceptual framework.


I don't care if characters are nonexistent at a conceptual level/ Type # from feats. But one can't just said non-existent beyond on all type or conceptual framework from conceptual framework of any degree.

 

[DMB_1]

So what you are saying is "Being outside of any Conceptual Framework is an NLF", right?

 

[Elizhaa]

So what you are saying is "Being outside of any Conceptual Framework is an NLF", right?

Based on our current Tiering system it is NLF for all except some Tier 0 like The Creator (Umineko no Naku Koro ni).

My point is For Tier 2 can't be nonexistent on a Conceptual Framework for Tier 1 for example.

 

[The_Causality]

Based on our current Tiering system it is NLF for all except some Tier 0 like The Creator (Umineko no Naku Koro ni).

My point is For Tier 2 can't be nonexistent on a Conceptual Framework for Tier 1 for example.

Yes! it's that! exactly

The only problem i need to fix is: if a Tier 2 is non existent on a Conceptual level, it's just a level above the basic Non existence, characters with feats or "higher dimensional" conceptual manipulation should be able to affect them. Basic Tier 2 Conceptual manipulation don't work tho

 

[Elizhaa]

Based on our current Tiering system it is NLF for all except some Tier 0 like The Creator (Umineko no Naku Koro ni).

My point is For Tier 2 can't be nonexistent on a Conceptual Framework for Tier 1 for example.

Yes! it's that! exactly
The only problem i need to fix is: if a Tier 2 is non existent on a Conceptual level, it's just a level above the basic Non existence, characters with feats or "higher dimensional" conceptual manipulation should be able to affect them. Basic Tier 2 Conceptual manipulation don't work tho

I do agree and I believe it should be judged by the concept type at this lower level too. Because, the feats can be type 2 or 3 conceptual nonexistence depending on the setting

 

[Promestein]

I'm fine with rewording it as suggested.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Promestein's sense of judgement.

 

[Elizhaa]

Well, Antvasima, I can make the additions later as I going to sleep soon. So, goodbye.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Elizhaa]

I made the change

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help.

 

[Crzer07]

I suppose nedge has a point

 

[Udlmaster]

I was going to recommend:

• Physiological Nothingness: The state of being, in which a person lacks any physiological substance and is actively made out of objective Nothingness as opposed to a Vacuum. Physiological Nothingness provides resistances to abilities that require Biological or Physiological traits to work, such as Biological Manipulation, Matter Manipulation and Life Manipulation.

• Mental Nothingness: The state of being in which a person lacks or is lacking a mental presence. As such, the person while being sentient, lacks a physical mental framework in which to function. Mental Nothingness provides resistances to conventional Mind Manipulation and Madness Manipulation.

• Spiritual Nothingness: The state of being in which a person lacks a spirit or is lacking in Spiritual energy. As such, the person while sentient lacks what would be considered a spirit or soul and or spiritual energy. Spiritual Nothingness provides resistances to abilities that interact with the Soul or Spiritual energy, such as conventional Soul Manipulation and Chi Manipulation.

• Total Nothingness: The state of being in which a person lacks a presence or Existence on the Physical, Spiritual and Mental planes of existence, and thus is lacking in ways to "Exist" on a conventional level. Total Nothingness provides resistances to abilities that affect beings on the Physical, Spiritual and Mental levels, such as conventional Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation and Existence Erasure.

It covers all bases, and none of it provides a slippery slop where it can get NLF. It's also much more simple and isn't needlessly vague, like the Type 5 Acausality section is.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ehhhh close, Udl. Current page already has the last one as the basic form, since lacking a soul doesn't make you non-existent and neither does being Non-Corporeal. The second bit of nonexistence means lacking a conceptual existence on your own dimensional level.

 

[Udlmaster]

I mean, to be lacking existence is usually a vague thing.

And it's usually dependant on the level in which a person lacks that part of themselves, as with the "Black Hole" from Valkyre verse, she lacks physical existence in the form of a Black Hole, but she doesn't lack a Mental or (What appears to be) a Spiritual Existence.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, but we consider it actually being nonexistent until you hit stuff like concepts.

That would just make her Non-Corporeal.

 

[Udlmaster]

But then wouldn't it be a case of "The Concept of Non-Existence"

Also, that's why I put "Presence" to have a Presence is to exist in someway or on some level.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, which is what the higher form is for. I believe, for an example you'll get, Shar is classified as the second type of Non-Existence, and thus one would need to affect her concepts.

Yes. Conceptually pretty much everything exists somehow.

 

[The_Causality]

Yep, that because i've said that even if you have a Conceptual Manip (Type 2/3 or4), you can't affect something conceptually nothing if yopu doesn't have feats or an higher dimensional conceptual manip

because in the case of the former proposition, basic tier 2 Concept user can still affect them by Erasing the "Concept of a non existent Concept" which is pretty assuming and really doubtful, that why it's necessary to put a limit.

 

[Elizhaa]

Nonexistence is a concept on a conceptual framework.

 

[The_Causality]

Nonexistence is a concept on a conceptual framework.

Everything are a Concept on a conceptual framework

but assuming that peoples with Conceptual manipulation (on a Tier 2 scale) can affect peoples with lacks concept on a Tier 2 scale is false, indeed, theorically, you still can affect those people but the problem it's if we are agree with this, then, people can affect them by "Destroying the concept of a non existent concept" you need feats, it's like assuming that those characters can destroy the concept of "Dimension" or other inflated stuff. you can even extrapolate this ability by Destroying "the concept of a concept of a concept which are non existent" at this rate, we can do everything.

Basically you can't assuming that because it's an overestimation of a basic concept hax, peoples with feats or Higher dimensional Concept hax should be able to affect them.

 

[Udlmaster]

Which is why I gave a much simple version of Non-Existence.

It really doesn't have to be complex.

If you want "Nonexistence on a conceptual level" why not create "Transcendant Physiology"?

Or "Beyond-Conceptual Physiology"

 

[The_Causality]

I've already proposed a Pseudo-Idealistic NE for peoples who are Conceptually Non Existent for Tier 2 but IDK why this isn't been accepted.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Existence Erasure isn't purely physical; for the Physiological non-existence, I'd replace Existence Erasure with Matter manipulation.

 

[Udlmaster]

U right.

Forgot about the Soul aspect that usually comes with EE.

 

[Udlmaster]

But yeah, it's the same with Acausality and it's Type 5, people are still debating on how it works and if it's NLF or Not.

The requirements for reading a page shouldn't be knowing the in's and Outs of Timaeus and the nature of Duality.

It should be in plain text because otherwise, what's the point of it being explained.

Going with something a lot more simple is the best way because the more we get into the Logistics like "Non-existence on a Conceptual Framework" the less that term is going to be applied.

Like, how many verses legitmately contain Non-Existence on that level. The more simple we keep it, the more likely it will be available for use instead of reserving it further into the High end verses.

Look at Acausality.

Type 5 can turn a stomp from one side to a stomp on the other.

See Magnus vs Vecna.