Issues with Void Manipulation and Nonexistence (Staff only)

[Mr. Bambu]

For one, I disagree with lumping physical nonexistence under non-corporeal, because that's still being nonexistent to some degree. Makes more sense to classify as a weaker version of Nonexistent Physiology.

I also agree with Dargoo in the idea that manipulating a void would give the ability to interact with nonexistent beings.

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Fate, also

 

[ProspectX]

>We should only have complete nonexistence fall under the power, as existing in any other form is a paradox to the concept in the first place.

As far i can see, complete non-existence is in general the absolute negation to concepts of existence(life, death, physical space, etc). But as you clarified, there is still room to possible intrepretations of the "invisible". You can define the aether as nothingness without proof, yet science proved that it there is indeed space between the celestial bodies.

 

[Antoniofer]

You known? I think we are starting to treat complete nonexistance as transcendence (no different than being 1-A). Most nonexistent characters that aren't transcendent (such Oblivion from Marvel) are just nonexistent in the way that they do not leave trace, not even memorie ones, and are made of nothing (no matter, quantic or spiritual mass).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I have never once seen it treated as transcendence. It means you don't exist in some form.

 

[ProspectX]

Transcendence over the concept of dimensions? Not necessiraly, the premise of a completly non-existent entity is metaphysical in the sense that that it lacks existential attributes, it cannot possibly be physical in any way, therefore dimensionless but still standing as absolute negation to the charachteristics of existence, in other words their essence negates any possibility that they "exist". There is no need to be transcendent over the conceptual aspects of space or time.

 

[Antoniofer]

I wasn't refering to power, like a being of finite AP with several qualities of a transcendent being, sometimes it give me that feeling.

Anyway, I'm still a little confused about the thread but basically it want to give anyone with Void Manipulation Non-Physical Interaction and that they are capable to damage Nonexistent being, am I right?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bottom line I wanted to specify that Nonexistence Manipulation/Interaction as well as Creation from Nothingness is part of Void Manipulation, although that latter doesn't justify the ability by itself.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think thst FateAlbane seems to make sense.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel like the example they used to justify their point is flawed as nonexistence and matter are two very different things, but to each their own, I guess.

"Partial Nonexistence" is a paradox. You either exist or you do not. If you have no physical body you still exist in whatever spiritual or mental aspects you have and you're just Non-Corporeal.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So, uh

Can we at least agree to the additions to the Void page I made here? Reception on that has at least been mostly positive.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate input from other staff members.

 

[Antoniofer]

I'm guess that having Nothingness Manipulation allows you to interact with Nonexistance Physiology, although I'm still a little unsure. I still think that create from nothing is a different power than void manipulation.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Anto He is specifically talking about manipulating nothingness itself to create objects, not just creating something from nothing.

 

[Antoniofer]

So Void Construct? Ah, ok then, I though this was already covered in original page.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm fine with Dargoo's alterations.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think Dargoo's alterations are good, but not great

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Do I need to highlight this a second time or something

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure if that's necessary, but agree on more staff input.

 

[Antvasima]

I am too tired and distracted to properly evaluate this. Sorry.

It is up to other staff members to do so.

Here are some of the staff members that you can select from to ask to give input:

SomebodyData

Darkanine

Celestial Pegasus

Monarch Laciel

Assaltwaffle

Saikou The Lewd King

Ultima Reality

AKM Sama

MrKingOfNegativity

Wokistan

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Thanks, and no worries, Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I have been summoned! This is a decent sized thread; what exactly is being proposed so far? I have only read the OP.

 

[The_Causality]

I've just take a look, if i understand correctly, nothing really change but:

• Create something by manipulating Nothingness is void Manipulation
• Void manipulation doesn't mean that you can affect Non-Existent being by manipulate nothingness

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Basically

Being able to manipulate a Void, or Nothingness, constitutes being able to interact with stuff that doesn't exist as well as treat stuff that doesn't exist as if it does while possibly being able to make things that don't exist start existing.

Also I wanted to establish what we consider to be "Nonexistent" since our current definition is absurdly broad.

 

[The_Causality]

The exact opposite that what i understood lol

We Consider peoples non existent if:

• It's stated that he is literally the Void/Nothing ect..
• The characters has been erased and still exist as nothing

I guess it's the only conditions to being Nonexistent

 

[Assaltwaffle]

If we're dealing with Nonexistence, I definitely have something to say on the subject. I will need to get on my computer to properly organize and recall my arguments and propositions on the subject.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The former can easily be the author misunderstanding what it means to not exist but eh.

The latter makes no sense as they still exist in some form and are therefore not in a state of nonexistence. For example if someone is erased from existence physically but still has a mind that can interact with stuff that's not nonexistence.

It's weird because to truly not exist there can be nothing that can reasonably prove the character does not exist as if there was they'd be existing in some respect.

I seriously recommend people look into the definitions of existence according to Materialism and Idealism if you want a better understanding of what I'm talking about.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If we're dealing with Nonexistence, I definitely have something to say on the subject. I will need to get on my computer to properly organize and recall my arguments and propositions on the subject.

What he says, I agree with. Not for bandwagoning, but because we've talked about this before.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh boy.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I feel like opening with some sort of GIF for the sake of making an entrance, since I was apparently important enough for Ant to mention by name.

So what I'm getting out of this is:

• Our current definition for Void Manip is weak.

• Our qualifications for Nonexistence are poorly defined.

• Void Manipulation should entail far more than what is currently suggested on the ability's page.

• Void Manipulation should allow you to affect a nonexistent being.

I agree with the first three, but am entirely on the fence about the last. In theory, you could say that manipulating nothingness should allow you to affect someone who's made of...well, nothing. But fiction is nowhere near that straightforward, and I personally think such a thing should be treated on a case-by-case basis, same as several of our other powers.

The first three things (especially the second and third) should be sorted out before we even think about going into the fourth, though. (Assuming they haven't already. I've only been skimming through the comments for a few minutes now.)

 

[Assaltwaffle]

When looking at the Nonexistent Physiology page, there is a lot to be desired. It seems like the idea of "nonexistence" is not well understood or not handled well given the "types" of NE Physiology, as they are placed with "mental nonexistence" (this type is really weird personally and seems incredibly specific).

When it comes to being "nonexistent", it is important to understand to what level one is NE. There are many levels of nonexistence, and thinking any but the highest level as being "literally gone" is an incorrect or incomplete understanding of nonexistence.

It is hard to break nonexistence up into specific types, as there is essentially a spectrum of way that something can be nonexistent. Of course, one can outline a couple major options for nonexistence, with anomalies like mental nonexistence falling outside the general rule of thumb. Here are some examples of general levels of nonexistence.

1. Physical Nonexistence: The absence of any matter or ability to interact with the physical world. This character exists as a Non-Corporeal entity and will be unable to be harmed by conventional strikes or abilities. Such characters can exist as a disembodied soul, consciousness, or similar metaphysical state.

2. Conventional Nonexistence: The lack of any conventional existence. Such a character will exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical world, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. Such entities can be conceptualized by individuals, but have never existed in a physical or normal metaphysical form, such as a soul. Unicorns in real life exemplify this well; humans have the idea and conception of what a unicorn is, but a unicorn does not and has never existed.

3. Unconventional Nonexistence: The lack of anything except a presence on a universal abstract conceptual framework, such as Types 1, 2, and 3 as outlined by the Conceptual Manipulation page. If one imagines a metaphysical conceptual "list" of everything that is both existent and nonexistent, such a character would reside on the "nonexistent" section of the list. Such a character is bound only by conception, and has never existed as a possibility, idea, or any lower form.

4. Conceptual/Complete (y'all can input on the name; I'm not married to either) Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything, including presence on a conceptual framework of any degree. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all.

• This existence is contradictory and impossible, as doing or perceiving anything would be evidence against such a state. The most basic principle understood by philosophy, even beyond the Truths of Reason, is "Cognito, ergo sum," or "I think, therefore I am." If one truly, on all levels, "isn't", that individual can't think or do literally anything. The interaction with anything is in direct contradiction to this logical principle, and thus all logics, even the bivalent logic that made modern philosophers question the Truths of Reason.

• This existence cannot be proven, quite like omnipotence. The very assertion of such a nonexistent state of this level is, if anything, proof of existence of some facet. If y'all want to accept this as something a character can have, please first think about the arguments listed in the Omnipotence page against the use of such a power, as Complete Nonexistence falls into the exact same situation of being utterly unprovable and impossibly contradictory.

It should be noted that the lower forms of nonexistence can be limited in many ways, such as existing in the past. These forms are variable within themselves, and should not be treated as rigid like the Conceptual Manipulation Types are.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Whoa

MrKing basically summed this up better than I could have done.

Adding that to the OP, thanks a bunch.

But yeah, I'd like a solid definition of "Not Existing" and since Assault has something prepared we can wait for that.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Assalt

I mean the definition of "nonexistence" is that it doesn't exist. If it exists as a disembodied entity, then it, by definition, exists because it's not made out of nothingness.

Do we have any examples of your proposed Types 3 and 4?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think I ninja'd you on the definitions for not existing.

 

[Kaltias]

@Assalt

Type 3 nonexistent physiology in your proposal is essentially type 1 abstract existence but restricted to concepts.

I don't think that it's particularly needed

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Gotta say I really like Assault's definition, although I think a note on Physical nonexistence should be added that says you should give characters with that Non-Corporeal as opposed to nonexistent physiology.

Also darn ninjas.

I mean the definition of "nonexistence" is that it doesn't exist. If it exists as a disembodied entity, then it, by definition, exists because it's not made out of nothingness.

That's a great definition until you get into the discussion of what constitutes "existing". Materialism would consider Physical Nonexistence as True Nonexistence as (In that philosophy) anything that is not bound by material interactions does not exist.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Reppuzan

Nothingness is not something, it is nothing. If it is "made of", you can go ahead and stop there, because it isn't nothing. The above post is basically an explanation on how "not existing" is a lot harder to define. You can't just say that "nonexistence is just not existing period" because literally nothing in fiction meets such an example, which is why I said it should fall under the same category as Ominpotence.

Everything called "nonexistent" in fiction exists in some way. Do you know what is nonexistent? No, you don't, since the mere act of knowing it proves its existence on a base level.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Assalt

Nobodies in Kingdom Hearts are literally made of nothingness and are separate from the heart/soul. They are also said to not exist in the traditional sense because they don't have said heart/soul, which can be collected and manipulated.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Reppuzan

See, that stipulation of "traditional sense" is key here. You absolutely have to add that stipulation, as well, since anything that doesn't exist can be known and can't even be called "anything".

Also "made of nothingness" is just a contradiction, since if you're "made of", you have to end that sentence with something. Nothing is the absence of everything, including a body, mind, soul, idea, or anything else (although the whole topic above covers what the absence extends to). You can't be made of it.