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Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Dude did u not see what I said about the keys???? Yamato doesn't scale to War arc Naruto and this isn't even the first time I told u this in the same thread
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Issues with Speed [Naruto]
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
- Status
Dude did u not see what I said about the keys???? Yamato doesn't scale to War arc Naruto and this isn't even the first time I told u this in the same thread
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This is hilarious when I can see that u selectively read what u wanted to man no offense cause this doesn't make any sense
Yamato doesn't scale to the Naruto that Tata was talking about
Yamato doesn't scale to the Naruto that Tata was talking about
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It literally links to Part 2 Naruto's profile in the OP...AstralKing7 said:
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Using this statement makes no sense, if we aren't being selective with "facts" or excerpts or whatever the supporters are calling it, the giant bold description on the right also says lariat decapitates the opponent with the impact of a thunderbolt, which is 9-A by our standards. Whether or not we use the "main description" as evidence is to be discussed, because in some situations people use them as supporting arguments just fine.
Accepting this would be just as irresponsible as accepting light speed Haku in Part 1, where 3-tomoe sharingan Sasuke could see Haku moving between mirrors, and kurama chakra enhanced Naruto could react to Haku, despite them having difficult with double-digit Mach Sound Village ninja, and other ninja of comparable speed.
With these results getting FTL Minato and Naruto, it makes me question how Naruto only dodged light fang (an attack also stated to be light speed) by the literal skin of his teeth.
I'm also glad Madara and Kakashi's feats were brought up. Kakashi's feat which has 0 manga presence is shown in the anime. He already knew the lightning was at a pre-determined location and already started making his move on it before it even started.
With Madara's feat, Mabui's jutsu always leads with lightning before the actual object arrives. This is shown when she's transmitting a gourd to Darui, covered in electricity sound effects, and when the object lands, he sees the lightning strike first before the object is even present. This is shown with even more clarity in the anime. The lightning strikes the ground before Madara has the chance to perceive it in air.
Also relativistic speeds are at least 0.1c, according to Google.
Accepting this would be just as irresponsible as accepting light speed Haku in Part 1, where 3-tomoe sharingan Sasuke could see Haku moving between mirrors, and kurama chakra enhanced Naruto could react to Haku, despite them having difficult with double-digit Mach Sound Village ninja, and other ninja of comparable speed.
With these results getting FTL Minato and Naruto, it makes me question how Naruto only dodged light fang (an attack also stated to be light speed) by the literal skin of his teeth.
I'm also glad Madara and Kakashi's feats were brought up. Kakashi's feat which has 0 manga presence is shown in the anime. He already knew the lightning was at a pre-determined location and already started making his move on it before it even started.
With Madara's feat, Mabui's jutsu always leads with lightning before the actual object arrives. This is shown when she's transmitting a gourd to Darui, covered in electricity sound effects, and when the object lands, he sees the lightning strike first before the object is even present. This is shown with even more clarity in the anime. The lightning strikes the ground before Madara has the chance to perceive it in air.
Also relativistic speeds are at least 0.1c, according to Google.
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@Dante
Lariat also provided us with 2 Rel calcs: 0.12 and 0.40c, so the Lariat we gave calculations which are consistent but we also gave massive outliers. So I don't think Outliers calculations are the problem here. And I'm looking for the problem with Lariat so far.
Remembering ... I agree on a downgrade to 0.10c!
Lariat also provided us with 2 Rel calcs: 0.12 and 0.40c, so the Lariat we gave calculations which are consistent but we also gave massive outliers. So I don't think Outliers calculations are the problem here. And I'm looking for the problem with Lariat so far.
Remembering ... I agree on a downgrade to 0.10c!
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@Shadow
Tldr the Lariat attack has a 'near lightspeed' statement from a datebook that, when applied, results in quite literally everyone in Naruto, named fodder included, being Rel+ speed.
This is noteworthy due to explicitly natural lightning being stated as being undodgeable(Kirin),as well as a swing of a beam of light for EoS characters being unavoidable(Light Fang).
The counter evidence is that numerous instances of near lightspeed attacks exist in Naruto. All of those are questionable as Damage points out.
The only supporting feats rely on the presumption that the databook statement is already patently true
Tldr the Lariat attack has a 'near lightspeed' statement from a datebook that, when applied, results in quite literally everyone in Naruto, named fodder included, being Rel+ speed.
This is noteworthy due to explicitly natural lightning being stated as being undodgeable(Kirin),as well as a swing of a beam of light for EoS characters being unavoidable(Light Fang).
The counter evidence is that numerous instances of near lightspeed attacks exist in Naruto. All of those are questionable as Damage points out.
The only supporting feats rely on the presumption that the databook statement is already patently true
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Exactly, they scale higher than Relativistic in the current scalling, obviously, but they don't have a calc for their own feats that is Relativistic+ or higher, well not that I saw, I remember Sub Rel/Sub Rel+, but if there is a Rel+ feat for them please show meAstralKing7 said:
Yes I knew that Mat and Kep were there, lol
Guy bending space have a calc that puts him in Relativistic or higher ?
Having a attack =/= your speed unless you can react to it or fight someone who could, and Naruto dodging it was rejected. It's listed as his attack speed only in his profile
Urashiki needs a calc then, right ? Seems to be a good feat, flying in space usually is FTL
Creating Outlier results doesn't help the statement, something similar happens with laser dodging feats, even if the statement is clear, if it makes Outlier results then it should be discarted, it's in the page. Not that I'm against using that you know, I just think 0.51 C is too high for an assumption
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God tiers have no accepted feats or calcs at even Sub-Rel. It's why they were MHS+ a few months ago.
Urashiki thing was rejected like 3 times and Guy bending space = Rel has been rejected several times.
Urashiki thing was rejected like 3 times and Guy bending space = Rel has been rejected several times.
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@Shadow
TDLR about supporting this.
Lariat is a technique that achieves a speed "close to the speed of light" when used. With this we have:
Oppositio
TDLR about supporting this.
Lariat is a technique that achieves a speed "close to the speed of light" when used. With this we have:
Oppositio
- They use Kirin's hyperbole, which, according to Damage's own reasoning, doesn't hit the Lariat because Sasuke doesn't know the speed of the Raikage and Kirin's statements contradict themselves and their feats.
- Use databook hyperbole over Light Fang to be "impossible to dodge" to refute this "hyperbole". Which in this case, I'm sure it is only for FTL calculations (outliers!). So it does not affect the truth of the statement!
- They use the argument that the attack is producing inflated calculations (but it produced 2 consistent ones) and leaving inaccurate profiles when half of those profiles are inaccurate for other reasons.
- They use the CRT he spent with the most of the staff. Being accepted as having the said speed, after being analyzed "case by case".
- The insane speed chain the work has, with characters far below the Raikage and co, possessing MHS+ feats. Which would justify the relativistic speed of the Raikage and makes the statement consistent via the great superiority in speed.
- The fact that Manga does not contradict anything that is written in Databook.
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God Tiers are Unknown. Apart from the LF, no God Tier expresses feats of speed and they are scaled to Low ~ Mid Tiers a few mounths ago, until they discovered the statement that literally separates High Tiers (and some Mid Tiers) and above from Mid Tiers and Low Tiers.
The attack produced 2 outliers, while also having 2 consistent feats. Therefore, his producing outliers is annulled. It's not like everyone who dodged Lariat was FTL and cia, as it usually does with Laser feats.
The attack produced 2 outliers, while also having 2 consistent feats. Therefore, his producing outliers is annulled. It's not like everyone who dodged Lariat was FTL and cia, as it usually does with Laser feats.
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I don't think near speed of light is an outlier, I really think the scale is very incorrect and needs to be redone.
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...Wondering why there's such a passion against the downgrade of Naruto's speed anyway. It's not like it matters in vs. debates--it's rare to find two characters in the same tier that have similar AP, *and* similar enough speed to leave unequalized, anyway.
God tiers are probably still Rel, varying degrees of MHS+ seems fine for the rest.
God tiers are probably still Rel, varying degrees of MHS+ seems fine for the rest.
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@Stoned
What do vs battles have to do with something being valid or not?
What do vs battles have to do with something being valid or not?
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To me it seems one of the problems is the assumption that near light speed is 51%. Shouldn't there be CRT for this. Since some people believe that it should be lower and some say higher.
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One of the main issues for me is that the statement does not appear to have any solid support from the original manga itself. There is no mention or implication of the Raikage or Killer B having feats of speed at Relativistic+ levels.
Its very consistent with a lot of other databook statements from characters in this tier like Kinkaku and Ginkaku reacting to Laser Circus which is literally light rays and Mifune shooting out Lightspeed attacks with Naruto's Cloak amp etc. Yes, the Raikage are commonly known to be "super fast" guys going by Naruto's observation but the Lariat technique being 51% Lightspeed would make it around two hundred times faster than Kakashi's feat of just managing to intercept Kakauzu's attack which is assumed to be average lightning speed.
a nd this would be inconsistent how exactly Kakashi in early shippuden would be blitzed by Hebi Sasuke let alone the Raikage this isn't an inconsistency in the slightest and is just kind of an argument from increduility
It is a huge gap of speed in the verse. Which is what leads me to think that it is an outlier; especially since it has been used to retroactively scale so many characters in the verse to Relativistic or Relativistic+ levels.
The verse goes through a huge power cliff straight after the Pain Arc that doesn't make it an inconsistency just a huge power increase for the verse that seemingly makes no sense just like Naruto being able to spam Sage Mode out of no where while ignoring its previous downsides the verse kind of just threw out its earlier astablished rules in the later half of Shippuden and its actually very consistent with the other statements in the databook as i've already said so all the more reason to accept it.
At least part of that databook entry is exaggerated anyway, since it claims that the opponent can't even activate a technique before getting hit, yet Sasuke was able to put Killer B under Genjutsu while Killer B was performing the Lariat.
Thats not an exaggeration the databook uses flowery language like this all the time and when it does say something is undodgeable, unblockable etc. its not referring to top tier shinobi but regular ones or civillians for example Hebi Sasuke's Databook entry which talks how he's beyond the power of regular shinobi and that no one can stand a chance of living against him this obviously refers to the previous line of average ninja, and the databook does this throughout every entry consistently.
and i'll just tack on this Naruto/ Minato getting to FTL via this scaling isn't inconsistent in the slightest Light Fang is a casual no hand signs jutsu that Madara just spat out at Naruto in desperation he wasn't even impressed that he dodged it like he exspected it to happen, yet he jack off Sasuke's speed when he blitzed him hmm i wonder why that is?
Its very consistent with a lot of other databook statements from characters in this tier like Kinkaku and Ginkaku reacting to Laser Circus which is literally light rays and Mifune shooting out Lightspeed attacks with Naruto's Cloak amp etc. Yes, the Raikage are commonly known to be "super fast" guys going by Naruto's observation but the Lariat technique being 51% Lightspeed would make it around two hundred times faster than Kakashi's feat of just managing to intercept Kakauzu's attack which is assumed to be average lightning speed.
a nd this would be inconsistent how exactly Kakashi in early shippuden would be blitzed by Hebi Sasuke let alone the Raikage this isn't an inconsistency in the slightest and is just kind of an argument from increduility
It is a huge gap of speed in the verse. Which is what leads me to think that it is an outlier; especially since it has been used to retroactively scale so many characters in the verse to Relativistic or Relativistic+ levels.
The verse goes through a huge power cliff straight after the Pain Arc that doesn't make it an inconsistency just a huge power increase for the verse that seemingly makes no sense just like Naruto being able to spam Sage Mode out of no where while ignoring its previous downsides the verse kind of just threw out its earlier astablished rules in the later half of Shippuden and its actually very consistent with the other statements in the databook as i've already said so all the more reason to accept it.
At least part of that databook entry is exaggerated anyway, since it claims that the opponent can't even activate a technique before getting hit, yet Sasuke was able to put Killer B under Genjutsu while Killer B was performing the Lariat.
Thats not an exaggeration the databook uses flowery language like this all the time and when it does say something is undodgeable, unblockable etc. its not referring to top tier shinobi but regular ones or civillians for example Hebi Sasuke's Databook entry which talks how he's beyond the power of regular shinobi and that no one can stand a chance of living against him this obviously refers to the previous line of average ninja, and the databook does this throughout every entry consistently.
and i'll just tack on this Naruto/ Minato getting to FTL via this scaling isn't inconsistent in the slightest Light Fang is a casual no hand signs jutsu that Madara just spat out at Naruto in desperation he wasn't even impressed that he dodged it like he exspected it to happen, yet he jack off Sasuke's speed when he blitzed him hmm i wonder why that is?
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Light rays that bend and arc like plasma... No, Laser Circus would never be treated as lasers. Hyperbolic databook statements have already been brought up, so don't even try.
That would still make someone like Kakashi literally so slow B and A would see him move like he was in heavy mud. Kakashi suddenly getting more chakra come War Arc doesn't mean we just suddenly assume that hey, he's got kicker kicks that kick harder than his previous kickers, so speed boost! It is a boost out of nowhere yes, but still doesn't mean the statements are more consistent with everyone being suddenly more powerful come War Arc.
Except when it is referring to normal ninja, like you say, it directly references regular ninja... We would need to assume this is the case for the entire book just because of one line so that we can use it consistently.
That would still make someone like Kakashi literally so slow B and A would see him move like he was in heavy mud. Kakashi suddenly getting more chakra come War Arc doesn't mean we just suddenly assume that hey, he's got kicker kicks that kick harder than his previous kickers, so speed boost! It is a boost out of nowhere yes, but still doesn't mean the statements are more consistent with everyone being suddenly more powerful come War Arc.
Except when it is referring to normal ninja, like you say, it directly references regular ninja... We would need to assume this is the case for the entire book just because of one line so that we can use it consistently.
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Light rays that bend and arc like plasma... No, Laser Circus would never be treated as lasers.
It's literally stated in the same entry he controls them
i never stated they were light speed because they're lasers i said they are lightspeed because its made of light rays lol
Not to mention its a Storm Release Jutsu and the only other one in the series has been stated to be lightspeed further adding on to that consistency
Hyperbolic databook statements have already been brought up, so don't even try.
sigh prove its hyperbolic instead of making the same regurgitated argument whenever the databook is brought up pls and thank you
That would still make someone like Kakashi literally so slow B and A would see him move like he was in heavy mud.
And theres literally nothing to disprove that isn't the case, Kakashi doesn't even get speed scaling comparable to him until the War Arc lol he's literally fodder to the Raikage speed wise until then
Kakashi suddenly getting more chakra come War Arc doesn't mean we just suddenly assume that hey, he's got kicker kicks that kick harder than his previous kickers, so speed boost! It is a boost out of nowhere yes,.
No he has kicker kicks cause he kept up with Minato late War lol
but still doesn't mean the statements are more consistent with everyone being suddenly more powerful come War Arc
Nah the statements are still consistent the War Arc just proved it you literally have no way around that
Except when it is referring to normal ninja, like you say, it directly references regular ninja... We would need to assume this is the case for the entire book just because of one line so that we can use it consistently.
It literally uses the same language in every entry read the entire databook and you'll reach the same conclusion as i have, like Light Fang for example literally says its "impossible to dodge" with a panel of Naruto dodging it lol its obviously always referring to regular ninja in these instances it doesn't take that much brain power to figure that out.
It's literally stated in the same entry he controls them
i never stated they were light speed because they're lasers i said they are lightspeed because its made of light rays lol
Not to mention its a Storm Release Jutsu and the only other one in the series has been stated to be lightspeed further adding on to that consistency
Hyperbolic databook statements have already been brought up, so don't even try.
sigh prove its hyperbolic instead of making the same regurgitated argument whenever the databook is brought up pls and thank you
That would still make someone like Kakashi literally so slow B and A would see him move like he was in heavy mud.
And theres literally nothing to disprove that isn't the case, Kakashi doesn't even get speed scaling comparable to him until the War Arc lol he's literally fodder to the Raikage speed wise until then
Kakashi suddenly getting more chakra come War Arc doesn't mean we just suddenly assume that hey, he's got kicker kicks that kick harder than his previous kickers, so speed boost! It is a boost out of nowhere yes,.
No he has kicker kicks cause he kept up with Minato late War lol
but still doesn't mean the statements are more consistent with everyone being suddenly more powerful come War Arc
Nah the statements are still consistent the War Arc just proved it you literally have no way around that
Except when it is referring to normal ninja, like you say, it directly references regular ninja... We would need to assume this is the case for the entire book just because of one line so that we can use it consistently.
It literally uses the same language in every entry read the entire databook and you'll reach the same conclusion as i have, like Light Fang for example literally says its "impossible to dodge" with a panel of Naruto dodging it lol its obviously always referring to regular ninja in these instances it doesn't take that much brain power to figure that out.
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Control doesn't matter. This discussion has been had before. The moment you are using "lasers" or "light" that doesn't behave like normal, unless you have sufficient proof it is not considered that. Point and end.
I don't need to prove a negative, especially when many of the supporters here, among them Tata himself, says how the databook is full of flowery language. How about you prove the claim you are making?
Except he's... not. Not by a difference of 200 times.
Circular reasoning? War Arc proves it so it is consistent because it refers to the War Arc where everyone is much stronger... Be real, please.
A scan of Naruto barely dodging it, yes. That doesn't change the fact that flowery language is a much better explanation than "oh is just referring to normal people!"
I don't need to prove a negative, especially when many of the supporters here, among them Tata himself, says how the databook is full of flowery language. How about you prove the claim you are making?
Except he's... not. Not by a difference of 200 times.
Circular reasoning? War Arc proves it so it is consistent because it refers to the War Arc where everyone is much stronger... Be real, please.
A scan of Naruto barely dodging it, yes. That doesn't change the fact that flowery language is a much better explanation than "oh is just referring to normal people!"
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Laser Circus doesn't even say light speed and from the raws the only mentions are rays. It doesn't meet our standards for light speed, that argument can be dropped.
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Control doesn't matter. This discussion has been had before. The moment you are using "lasers" or "light" that doesn't behave like normal, unless you have sufficient proof it is not considered that. Point and end.
It obviously does when its not going to act like normal light when your controlling and manipluating it freely as the databook literally states. And again the only other Storm Release Jutsu in the series is directly stated to be lightspeed and this one is stated to be made of light rays, 2+2 tends to equal 4 last time i checked.
I don't need to prove a negative
When did i ask you to prove i negative lmao i asked you to prove its hyperbolic thats not proving a negative its backing up your argument.
Especially when many of the supporters here, among them Tata himself, says how the databook is full of flowery language.
Talk about an appeal to authority here i don't care what Tata thinks this is your argument back it up on your own
How about you prove the claim you are making?
How about you give me some of those "hyperbolic" databook statements so i can explain to you how they don't exist ok buddy?
Except he's... not. Not by a difference of 200 times.
Another argument from incredulity how about coming up with something next time
Circular reasoning? War Arc proves it so it is consistent because it refers to the War Arc where everyone is much stronger... Be real, please.
No part of my reasoning is circular you just don't understand the argument and its went over your head completely, The War Arc proves that its consistent because even weaker characters than the Raikage can react to lightspeed attacks before it touches them so try an actual argument next time instead of a strawman.
A scan of Naruto barely dodging it, yes.
Literally casually dodges it in midair still discredits the impossible statement which was the entire point of the response in the first place in fact, Madara wasn't even taken aback or surprised/ impressed Naruto dodged the supposedly undodgeable lightbeam kind of adding onto the consistency that lightspeed was already reached and surpassed earlier in the war by weaker characters.
That doesn't change the fact that flowery language is a much better explanation than "oh is just referring to normal people!"
It's literally a common recurring turn of phrase throughout the databooks if you don't want to believe it thats fine you'd still need to prove the almost the speed of light statement is flowery language despite it matching up with multiple other statements in the databook and i don't want a typical "it's just hyperbole lol" response i want a logic reason beyond basic incredulity.
It obviously does when its not going to act like normal light when your controlling and manipluating it freely as the databook literally states. And again the only other Storm Release Jutsu in the series is directly stated to be lightspeed and this one is stated to be made of light rays, 2+2 tends to equal 4 last time i checked.
I don't need to prove a negative
When did i ask you to prove i negative lmao i asked you to prove its hyperbolic thats not proving a negative its backing up your argument.
Especially when many of the supporters here, among them Tata himself, says how the databook is full of flowery language.
Talk about an appeal to authority here i don't care what Tata thinks this is your argument back it up on your own
How about you prove the claim you are making?
How about you give me some of those "hyperbolic" databook statements so i can explain to you how they don't exist ok buddy?
Except he's... not. Not by a difference of 200 times.
Another argument from incredulity how about coming up with something next time
Circular reasoning? War Arc proves it so it is consistent because it refers to the War Arc where everyone is much stronger... Be real, please.
No part of my reasoning is circular you just don't understand the argument and its went over your head completely, The War Arc proves that its consistent because even weaker characters than the Raikage can react to lightspeed attacks before it touches them so try an actual argument next time instead of a strawman.
A scan of Naruto barely dodging it, yes.
Literally casually dodges it in midair still discredits the impossible statement which was the entire point of the response in the first place in fact, Madara wasn't even taken aback or surprised/ impressed Naruto dodged the supposedly undodgeable lightbeam kind of adding onto the consistency that lightspeed was already reached and surpassed earlier in the war by weaker characters.
That doesn't change the fact that flowery language is a much better explanation than "oh is just referring to normal people!"
It's literally a common recurring turn of phrase throughout the databooks if you don't want to believe it thats fine you'd still need to prove the almost the speed of light statement is flowery language despite it matching up with multiple other statements in the databook and i don't want a typical "it's just hyperbole lol" response i want a logic reason beyond basic incredulity.
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1) Never claimed it did and 2) No offense IMade but i'm not taking your word as law when from the multiple translations i've seen they've always either said "Light-Rays" or "Like Light" when referencing Laser CircusIMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
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A lot of OPM revision threads just get left to die and then come back like weeks or months later.The real cal howard said:
I am fine with that conclusion but I do think Murata saying Geryuganshoop's attack speed is above Tatsumaki's shouldn't be totally disregarded, just the light speed thing.
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Our standards for light literally tell you you are dead wrong, plus what IMade said. Don't like it? Make a CRT, not my problem.
Tata is a knowledgeable member that has been related to many of these verses revisions. This is no appeal to authority, just telling you that people just as or more knowledgeable than you have also reached that conclusion. And it is indeed proving a negative by Occam's Razor considering hyperbole is EXTREMELY commonly used for the sake of impact and energy, not to mention your "it's in comparison to normal shinobi" hinges on exactly one line of the entire book.
A good few are mentioned above, and in the OP. Or have you literally just joined in and read nothing else?
Listing up fallacies to make it sound like you have a point doesn't give you a point. Kakashi at no point is showcased like he'd have such an extreme speed difference from B. Ever heard of consistency?
The nonexistent light speed attack that is only SoL by your erroneous interpretation, but that is consistent because War Arc characters weaker than Raikage can evade it, who by the words of the data book has lariat at light speed so it is consistent? No circular stuff at all.
Casually dodging? What battle did you see? Not to mention the attack is base speed of light... So people leaps and bounds below Naruto are close to him in speed. Makes sense.
And here I am gonna break attitude for a second and ask, did you just realize how incredibly dumb what you just said is? "Statements are consistent through the databook, so this is consistent"? That's your reply to something not being flowery language?
Ugh... I am done. Others have it handled anyway. I won't participate more in this.
Tata is a knowledgeable member that has been related to many of these verses revisions. This is no appeal to authority, just telling you that people just as or more knowledgeable than you have also reached that conclusion. And it is indeed proving a negative by Occam's Razor considering hyperbole is EXTREMELY commonly used for the sake of impact and energy, not to mention your "it's in comparison to normal shinobi" hinges on exactly one line of the entire book.
A good few are mentioned above, and in the OP. Or have you literally just joined in and read nothing else?
Listing up fallacies to make it sound like you have a point doesn't give you a point. Kakashi at no point is showcased like he'd have such an extreme speed difference from B. Ever heard of consistency?
The nonexistent light speed attack that is only SoL by your erroneous interpretation, but that is consistent because War Arc characters weaker than Raikage can evade it, who by the words of the data book has lariat at light speed so it is consistent? No circular stuff at all.
Casually dodging? What battle did you see? Not to mention the attack is base speed of light... So people leaps and bounds below Naruto are close to him in speed. Makes sense.
And here I am gonna break attitude for a second and ask, did you just realize how incredibly dumb what you just said is? "Statements are consistent through the databook, so this is consistent"? That's your reply to something not being flowery language?
Ugh... I am done. Others have it handled anyway. I won't participate more in this.
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Our standards for light literally tell you you are dead wrong, plus what IMade said. Don't like it? Make a CRT, not my problem.
Tata is a knowledgeable member that has been related to many of these verses revisions. This is no appeal to authority, just telling you that people just as or more knowledgeable than you have also reached that conclusion.
You basically said "I don't need to prove anything cause Tata argees with me" its an appeal to authority end of story
And it is indeed proving a negative by Occam's Razor considering hyperbole is EXTREMELY commonly used for the sake of impact and energy
Thats not proving a negative proving a negative would be me saying "prove it isn't hyperbole" lol when i say prove its hyperbole i want you to show me scans of supposed inconsistency in it so i can tell you why thats not the case
not to mention your "it's in comparison to normal shinobi" hinges on exactly one line of the entire book.
Not just one line but multiple such as when it says Kabuto is the "smartest we've seen" in Databook 1, it's only talking about pre Orochimaru/Hiruzen stats and events. Or when it says "His Power is insane" or "Her intelligence is insane" it's speaking relatively to their classes, not the verse in general.
A good few are mentioned above, and in the OP. Or have you literally just joined in and read nothing else?
I want you to give me examples so i can debunk your interpretation of them cause again what other ppl say doesn't matter for OUR debate
Listing up fallacies to make it sound like you have a point doesn't give you a point.
Go thing the fallacies aren't the only part of my argument then huh
Kakashi at no point is showcased like he'd have such an extreme speed difference from B. Ever heard of consistency?
He kept up with Minato late War who's > Bee in terms of speed not to mention Kakashi just got a huge speed amp as soon as the War Arc started keeping up with multiple V2 Jins and KCM Naruto despite the fact he was slower than Pain in the previous arc lol and the feat used to downplay the Raikage here was done by an Early Shippuden Kakashi so it wouldn't effect the Raikages statement, Kakashi is the most power creeped person in the verse and he's who your agument entirely hinges on moot point.
The nonexistent light speed attack that is only SoL by your erroneous interpretation, but that is consistent because War Arc characters weaker than Raikage can evade it, who by the words of the data book has lariat at light speed so it is consistent? No circular stuff at all.
Erroneous despite the fact it meets the criteria oof reacting=/=evading they saw it coming but they still couldn't do anything and got tagged regardless, still no circular reasoning you just didn't read my argument its not my problem you cant understand it.
Casually dodging? What battle did you see?
Yes casually thats what happens when your fast enough to dodge light from literally a few feet infront of you while being hindered by an enemy in mid air
Not to mention the attack is base speed of light...
Yes its also a casual no hand sign jutsu Madara spat out at him desperately and he wasn't even impressed when Naruto dodged it because light speed isn't impressive to either of them by that point
So people leaps and bounds below Naruto are close to him in speed. Makes sense.
Nice strawman people leaps and bounds below Naruto can dodge light fang that does not make them as fast as him by any strech of the imagination
And here I am gonna break attitude for a second and ask, did you just realize how incredibly dumb what you just said is? "Statements are consistent through the databook, so this is consistent"? That's your reply to something not being flowery language?
The argument in the OP is about it possibly being hyperbolic cause of the "no person can evade the attack" statement not the "almost speed of light" statement why does an entire different line of text disprove its crediblity again prove its hyperbolic or don't waste my time.
Ugh... I am done. Others have it handled anyway. I won't participate more in this.
Concession accepted thank you goodbye
- The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources
- It is stated to be made of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source
Tata is a knowledgeable member that has been related to many of these verses revisions. This is no appeal to authority, just telling you that people just as or more knowledgeable than you have also reached that conclusion.
You basically said "I don't need to prove anything cause Tata argees with me" its an appeal to authority end of story
And it is indeed proving a negative by Occam's Razor considering hyperbole is EXTREMELY commonly used for the sake of impact and energy
Thats not proving a negative proving a negative would be me saying "prove it isn't hyperbole" lol when i say prove its hyperbole i want you to show me scans of supposed inconsistency in it so i can tell you why thats not the case
not to mention your "it's in comparison to normal shinobi" hinges on exactly one line of the entire book.
Not just one line but multiple such as when it says Kabuto is the "smartest we've seen" in Databook 1, it's only talking about pre Orochimaru/Hiruzen stats and events. Or when it says "His Power is insane" or "Her intelligence is insane" it's speaking relatively to their classes, not the verse in general.
A good few are mentioned above, and in the OP. Or have you literally just joined in and read nothing else?
I want you to give me examples so i can debunk your interpretation of them cause again what other ppl say doesn't matter for OUR debate
Listing up fallacies to make it sound like you have a point doesn't give you a point.
Go thing the fallacies aren't the only part of my argument then huh
Kakashi at no point is showcased like he'd have such an extreme speed difference from B. Ever heard of consistency?
He kept up with Minato late War who's > Bee in terms of speed not to mention Kakashi just got a huge speed amp as soon as the War Arc started keeping up with multiple V2 Jins and KCM Naruto despite the fact he was slower than Pain in the previous arc lol and the feat used to downplay the Raikage here was done by an Early Shippuden Kakashi so it wouldn't effect the Raikages statement, Kakashi is the most power creeped person in the verse and he's who your agument entirely hinges on moot point.
The nonexistent light speed attack that is only SoL by your erroneous interpretation, but that is consistent because War Arc characters weaker than Raikage can evade it, who by the words of the data book has lariat at light speed so it is consistent? No circular stuff at all.
Erroneous despite the fact it meets the criteria oof reacting=/=evading they saw it coming but they still couldn't do anything and got tagged regardless, still no circular reasoning you just didn't read my argument its not my problem you cant understand it.
Casually dodging? What battle did you see?
Yes casually thats what happens when your fast enough to dodge light from literally a few feet infront of you while being hindered by an enemy in mid air
Not to mention the attack is base speed of light...
Yes its also a casual no hand sign jutsu Madara spat out at him desperately and he wasn't even impressed when Naruto dodged it because light speed isn't impressive to either of them by that point
So people leaps and bounds below Naruto are close to him in speed. Makes sense.
Nice strawman people leaps and bounds below Naruto can dodge light fang that does not make them as fast as him by any strech of the imagination
And here I am gonna break attitude for a second and ask, did you just realize how incredibly dumb what you just said is? "Statements are consistent through the databook, so this is consistent"? That's your reply to something not being flowery language?
The argument in the OP is about it possibly being hyperbolic cause of the "no person can evade the attack" statement not the "almost speed of light" statement why does an entire different line of text disprove its crediblity again prove its hyperbolic or don't waste my time.
Ugh... I am done. Others have it handled anyway. I won't participate more in this.
Concession accepted thank you goodbye
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Xulrev summarized up above pretty well. But a shorter TL;DR is;Shadowbokunohero said:
- Statements and feats from the original manga contradict the assumption that the Raikage & Killer B's Lariat is 51% of the speed of light due to the scaling chain it is involved with.
- Meaning that the databook statement (which is the sole source for assuming the Lariat is 51% of the speed of light) should be disregarded.
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@Xulrev
Tldr the Lariat attack has a 'near lightspeed' statement from a datebook that, when applied, results in quite literally everyone in Naruto, named fodder included, being Rel+ speed.
Foddder being Rel+ is Ridiculous, if this was the High or godtiers of the verse then sure but No just no Lmfao.
This is noteworthy due to explicitly natural lightning being stated as being undodgeable(Kirin),as well as a swing of a beam of light for EoS characters being unavoidable(Light Fang).
I disagree with this assessment, generally these undodgeable quotes are intentional hyperbole or more like red herrings in the narrative sense, they are intentionally set up like that for them to be disproven as to highlight how impressive the character's feat is of doing so is, for example if the story tells us The Wall is made of Diamond , it is unbreakable but later on a character gets a sword and breaks the sword, it doesn't invalidate the wall from being made of Diamond it just disproves the notion that it is unbreakable.
The counter evidence is that numerous instances of near lightspeed attacks exist in Naruto. All of those are questionable as Damage points out.
I could be missing context here because i was missing during the whole Rel+ upgrade, the only feats i can think of is Madara's Light fang, which was performed by a God tier of the universe
Tldr the Lariat attack has a 'near lightspeed' statement from a datebook that, when applied, results in quite literally everyone in Naruto, named fodder included, being Rel+ speed.
Foddder being Rel+ is Ridiculous, if this was the High or godtiers of the verse then sure but No just no Lmfao.
This is noteworthy due to explicitly natural lightning being stated as being undodgeable(Kirin),as well as a swing of a beam of light for EoS characters being unavoidable(Light Fang).
I disagree with this assessment, generally these undodgeable quotes are intentional hyperbole or more like red herrings in the narrative sense, they are intentionally set up like that for them to be disproven as to highlight how impressive the character's feat is of doing so is, for example if the story tells us The Wall is made of Diamond , it is unbreakable but later on a character gets a sword and breaks the sword, it doesn't invalidate the wall from being made of Diamond it just disproves the notion that it is unbreakable.
The counter evidence is that numerous instances of near lightspeed attacks exist in Naruto. All of those are questionable as Damage points out.
I could be missing context here because i was missing during the whole Rel+ upgrade, the only feats i can think of is Madara's Light fang, which was performed by a God tier of the universe
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@Shadow; the point of the Kirin statement being undodgeable in not that it is an absolute truth, but that it is stated from Sasuke's perspective. And Sasuke is familiar with the speed of several noteworthy characters at that time.
It is fine for a statement like that to be disproved later! Like the Raikage avoiding the "unavoidable" Amaterasu, or Itachi blocking the "unblockable" Kirin. The statement being disproved later doesn't affect why the statement was made in the first place, which is that it comes from the perspective of characters who don't know any better but does know enough.
For example; let's say that Character A states nobody from his village can pull out a sword from a stone (and he knows how strong they all are), but then Character B who comes from another village arrives and pulls the sword from the stone.
Does that mean we can say everyone from Character A's village can pull the sword from the stone as well?
It is fine for a statement like that to be disproved later! Like the Raikage avoiding the "unavoidable" Amaterasu, or Itachi blocking the "unblockable" Kirin. The statement being disproved later doesn't affect why the statement was made in the first place, which is that it comes from the perspective of characters who don't know any better but does know enough.
For example; let's say that Character A states nobody from his village can pull out a sword from a stone (and he knows how strong they all are), but then Character B who comes from another village arrives and pulls the sword from the stone.
Does that mean we can say everyone from Character A's village can pull the sword from the stone as well?
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my comment was closer in reference to Databook statements like lightfang oppose to in universe statements.Damage3245 said:
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@Shadow; okay, that's fair.
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MostPowerfull said:
What's crazy is that even if we were to use FTL calc no one would even scale to Naruto because he seemed to have used shunshin similar to when he attacked Kisame which is why he was compared to Minato. So actually the FTL scaling would only be for only a handful like the god tier because Naruto blitzed Madara in the series before
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Hm, fair enough. Though that's pretty much a major example of what TataHakai meant in his post about much faster characters acting as if a slower move is impressive. There's a buttload of that in this site, but that doesn't affect their speed scaling anyway.Damage3245 said:
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@JohnHendrix212; as I have said, if other series have a problem, then they need to be addressed in their own threads.
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Your analogy doesn't work. Black Zetsu literally knows who the raikage is. The statement doesn't even hold up anymore when Sasuke fought the raikage and gave a statement about Amatarsu.Damage3245 said:
Black Zetsu himself debunks the statement. It was easy to see that it's a hyperbole
The statement was made because this is the same Sasuke who was confident as hell that he could easily kill Itachi and the same Sasuke who played orochimaru fodder only to find out Oro wasn't dead and he had jumped the gun
This isn't the first time Sasuke has even exaggerated about things. We have never seen him use Kirin before. U do realize he was going to use Kirin on Team 7 right???
U do realize the blast radius was going to catch him it is as well right? Naw Sasuke obviously was going to escape ƒñªÔÇìÔÖ鴩ŃñªÔÇìÔÖ鴩ŃñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å This is the stuff that makes debating annoying when people don't even remember context
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@AstralKing7, you haven't actually explained how BZ debunks the statement. Do you have proof that BZ had witnessed the Raikage fight before?
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Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the raikage have light speed synapes?
http://bleachsoulevolution.com/forum/manga/Naruto/462/3
http://bleachsoulevolution.com/forum/manga/Naruto/462/3
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@PowerToScale; no, C is saying that A's reaction speed is on par with Minato's.
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Okay, cool
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There's way too much to counter here it's almost impossible to discuss this
But i will reply to xulrev for a moment
"That entire wall of text was crafted and snuck in 'sure the databook has hyperbole but so does the manga' dead-center so people would, likely, glance right over it, and even uses 'destruction of the universe' as the juxtaposition against which we are weighing lightspeed movement. "
I don't know why that statement is so hard to understand for people but i'm assuming that a lot of people here don't understand what fallacies are, this common fallacy that people commit whilst arguing is a fallacy by association
Here i'll explain why and how it is
"This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this."
A is in the databook and is a hyperbole, B is in the databook too thus we have an association, without any proof the person claims B is a hyperbole because A is a hyperbole
"Tata in his own wall of text admits the databook is full of hyperbole, which was the sole point of why the LS statement should reasonably be thrown out; nothign else in-verse supports LS Naruto."
Of course the databook has a ton of Hyperbole in it, but it also has legitimate statements like Light fang and most of the Hyperbole is in the title of the character/jutsu pages which are Hype text rather than the actual description of the ability
The databook IS in verse, i don't know why people think it's any different from statements within the manga when both are written by Kishimoto and Kishimoto himself tells us he uses the databook to tell us more information about Jutsu
There's a ton of stuff in verse that i've already explained that supports LS Naruto
This is very simple to understand yet people commit this logical fallacy almost everyday with a lot of topics here, i brought up the manga because if we ignored this logical fallacy when it comes to the manga or ANY comic book you could literally say "Well Darkseid was stated to be omnipotent so ALL DC comics are full of hyperboles because it's from a DC comic!!", it's literally nonsense
I brought up destruction of the universe because it was the most blatant hyperbole from the manga i know
"All the scaling Tata gives presumes the LS statement and solely the LS statement is correct to support the scaling being accurate. This is known as circular reasoning (Well the LS statement is correct because the LS scaling is correct because everyone scales to LS because of the LS statement which is correct because~~ et all)"
I'm not sure if you know what Circular reasoning is but i can assure you that's not what i did at all, i wasn't even trying to justify the current scaling as i agreed there are flaws with it, simply that LS is a constant within Naruto, it would be circular scaling if i were to say "Well there are Relativistic feats by characters doding Lariat so Lariat being Rel+ is consistent" but that's not what i did, at all, i brought in numerous feats and important context to how Light speed is a constant in Naruto, even since the first arc, understanding author intent is an important factor to debates.
"Seeing how as Tata himself apparently patently believes silly hyperbole should be thrown out, and has to resort to circular logic to support the LS statement from the databook, I think it's obvious his point is in favor of throwing it out, although he somehow chose to craft the wall of text to support the opposite view. "
What the hell are you talking about? I'm fine with people giving me counter arguments but to try and paint my argument out in another way to support your own is some bullshit move, you're literally putting words in my mouth and trying to re arrange my argument to support the opposite
I stated there are hyperboles in both the manga and databook and yes they should be thrown out (See Universal Temari, Universal Madara) but when a statement isn't contradicted and supported like Lariat is then there's no difference between the statement coming from the manga or databook, THAT was my point, and again if you're going to accuse me of circular reasoning then at least give an actual example
I said Lariat was a correct statement because it has support through other feats such as Madara blocking an LS attack, fodder characters having no problem moving things at Light speed, Madara being able to casually attack at the speed of light, and yes Damage i already said these don't scale to their normal stats but again, reading comprehension seems to have failed you because you completely missed my point there
"Also, definitely agree with Damage on his debunk of all the other supporting 'evidence' that doesn't rely on the LS statement itself such as Guy "approaching the speed of light" (seriously, what the actual hell is this claim???). "
"Relying on LS statements" is something that all verses use, and some verses have LS without even statements, so this point is completely moot.
The guy thing just goes to show who actually is here through the revisions and only pops up once a month to try and downgrade a verse, because we've had Guy as Relativistic supporting feat before, if you can't understand basic science then don't try to "debunk" a feat we've had accepted for months before and after you.
This entire conversation is becoming too convoluted to follow.
But i will reply to xulrev for a moment
"That entire wall of text was crafted and snuck in 'sure the databook has hyperbole but so does the manga' dead-center so people would, likely, glance right over it, and even uses 'destruction of the universe' as the juxtaposition against which we are weighing lightspeed movement. "
I don't know why that statement is so hard to understand for people but i'm assuming that a lot of people here don't understand what fallacies are, this common fallacy that people commit whilst arguing is a fallacy by association
Here i'll explain why and how it is
"This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this."
A is in the databook and is a hyperbole, B is in the databook too thus we have an association, without any proof the person claims B is a hyperbole because A is a hyperbole
"Tata in his own wall of text admits the databook is full of hyperbole, which was the sole point of why the LS statement should reasonably be thrown out; nothign else in-verse supports LS Naruto."
Of course the databook has a ton of Hyperbole in it, but it also has legitimate statements like Light fang and most of the Hyperbole is in the title of the character/jutsu pages which are Hype text rather than the actual description of the ability
The databook IS in verse, i don't know why people think it's any different from statements within the manga when both are written by Kishimoto and Kishimoto himself tells us he uses the databook to tell us more information about Jutsu
There's a ton of stuff in verse that i've already explained that supports LS Naruto
This is very simple to understand yet people commit this logical fallacy almost everyday with a lot of topics here, i brought up the manga because if we ignored this logical fallacy when it comes to the manga or ANY comic book you could literally say "Well Darkseid was stated to be omnipotent so ALL DC comics are full of hyperboles because it's from a DC comic!!", it's literally nonsense
I brought up destruction of the universe because it was the most blatant hyperbole from the manga i know
"All the scaling Tata gives presumes the LS statement and solely the LS statement is correct to support the scaling being accurate. This is known as circular reasoning (Well the LS statement is correct because the LS scaling is correct because everyone scales to LS because of the LS statement which is correct because~~ et all)"
I'm not sure if you know what Circular reasoning is but i can assure you that's not what i did at all, i wasn't even trying to justify the current scaling as i agreed there are flaws with it, simply that LS is a constant within Naruto, it would be circular scaling if i were to say "Well there are Relativistic feats by characters doding Lariat so Lariat being Rel+ is consistent" but that's not what i did, at all, i brought in numerous feats and important context to how Light speed is a constant in Naruto, even since the first arc, understanding author intent is an important factor to debates.
"Seeing how as Tata himself apparently patently believes silly hyperbole should be thrown out, and has to resort to circular logic to support the LS statement from the databook, I think it's obvious his point is in favor of throwing it out, although he somehow chose to craft the wall of text to support the opposite view. "
What the hell are you talking about? I'm fine with people giving me counter arguments but to try and paint my argument out in another way to support your own is some bullshit move, you're literally putting words in my mouth and trying to re arrange my argument to support the opposite
I stated there are hyperboles in both the manga and databook and yes they should be thrown out (See Universal Temari, Universal Madara) but when a statement isn't contradicted and supported like Lariat is then there's no difference between the statement coming from the manga or databook, THAT was my point, and again if you're going to accuse me of circular reasoning then at least give an actual example
I said Lariat was a correct statement because it has support through other feats such as Madara blocking an LS attack, fodder characters having no problem moving things at Light speed, Madara being able to casually attack at the speed of light, and yes Damage i already said these don't scale to their normal stats but again, reading comprehension seems to have failed you because you completely missed my point there
"Also, definitely agree with Damage on his debunk of all the other supporting 'evidence' that doesn't rely on the LS statement itself such as Guy "approaching the speed of light" (seriously, what the actual hell is this claim???). "
"Relying on LS statements" is something that all verses use, and some verses have LS without even statements, so this point is completely moot.
The guy thing just goes to show who actually is here through the revisions and only pops up once a month to try and downgrade a verse, because we've had Guy as Relativistic supporting feat before, if you can't understand basic science then don't try to "debunk" a feat we've had accepted for months before and after you.
This entire conversation is becoming too convoluted to follow.
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Damage3245 said:
Woah woah u do realize black Zetsu literally stated himself he has been observing the Shinobi world forever right??? So yeah he even says he has been recording the records of the world
Famous instance everyone knows about is Minato vs Ay which was stated to have had many battles. Zetsu even saw Sasuke vs Naruto the first time.
Another instance is Third Raikage vs Gyuki. Saying he doesn't no know about the speed of the raikage is foolish
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