Issues with Speed [Naruto] (STAFF ONLY)

[MostPowerfull]

.Good morning / afternoon / night to all! I received permission from Antvasima to make a comment. And I ask you all to read carefully what I have to say, please. I know I've had questionable behaviors in the past, but I'm trying to improve.

SOME OBSERVATIONS
Well, I don't mean to go too far into this, other than give you an idea so that this can be resolved. But, obviously, I would just like to comment briefly on the points of Damage:

1 - I think Tata and Shadow, as well as Mindovin, already said what I was going to say.

2 - This shows that, practically all Mid Tiers are not able to dodge Kirin. And yes, this strongly contradicts the SPEED SCALE.

Let's read what Damage said in your favor:

" It's worth noting that Jugo has actually been managed to avoid Killer B's Lariat, and both he and Suigetsu and kept up with the Raikage and Killer B in combat to an extent."
" If Sasuke is stating he considers it impossible to evade (and he has no reason to lie here) and he knows how fast these other characters are, that absolutely implies that these characters are slower tha Kirin ..."
" That does not mean Sasuke is wrong when it comes to the unavoidable part of his statement, at least in terms of the characters whose combat speed Sasuke is familiar with..."
"... the point of Sasuke's statement is not to rule out the entire verse as being incapable of dodging or blocking Kirin. That's ignoring who made the statement and when. Instead we need to look at characters who Sasuke has knowledge of their combat speed at this time (as in, not Minato or Killer B, etc.) but characters like Orochimaru, Deidara, Itachi, Kakashi, Karin, Jugo, Suigetsu, etc..."

^ This does not contradict Lariat at any time. The same is a move used by a character much faster than Kirin itself, to the point of dodging Amaterasu at close range.
And as said by Sasuke, the owner of the technique himself... Kirin, like Amaterasu, is impossible to evade or block, which of course is comparing to its speed, just as the statement says. It is also noteworthy that ... Itachi was able to block him, not only with little chakra, blind and a serious illness ... But Zetsu himself said that Itachi's reactions were not at their maximum:

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0390-021.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0390-022.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0389-008.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0389-009.png

Konohamaru keep up with Pain.
Suigetsu and Juugo.
They are all outliers, quickly refuted soon after in the manga.

That is ... This point proves nothing but a SPEED SCALING error, as Damage said, while sustaining this point.
Using this to disqualify Lariat is an Association Fallacy. Discard a information because what they did with that information is wrong.

3 - This point only sustains the speed scale error. It proves that Mid Tiers like Shikamaru and co are barely able to react to a Raiton, and make it impossible for Kirin to be avoided by them.

But that does not affect Lariat or the High Tiers who are involved with the feat, such as Taka Sasuke, Ay and Bee, Naruto KCM and co.

4 - I'm sure the Lariat passed 3 CRT before being applied.

5 - It does not contradict Lariat (in fact, Lariat supports it) and these arguments were refuted by Jvando and Tata in the last CRT that involved this statement.

A LITTLE DOWNGRADE
The first thing I think is right to do, is to decrease the percentage of light speed of the Lariat. I think only 10% of SoL is extremely more consistent, as proposed by DarkDragonMedeus and I'm pretty sure Shadow agreed with that too (though if not, sorry!).
This would also make Kisame's feat somewhat Sub-Relativistic (Mach 21578.6 aka 2% of the SoL), which would still be consistent with what was presented on the verse, becoming about 3x faster than Adult Shino's or about 7x faster than Kakashi Immortal Arc. We have several feats MHS to MHS+ which were shown by extremely slow characters compared to any High Tier and even by some Mid Tiers, or feats MHS + casually acquired by High Tiers from the verse. These feats would be :

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ou/Boruto'Calc_-_Sumire_responds_to_lightning
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Kakashi_intercepts_Kakuzu's_Lightning_Release
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AlexSoloVaAlFuturo/Sasuke's_Kirin_speed
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:TataHakai/Bit_Feat_from_the_Last
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Boruto:_Shino_is_faster_than_you_think
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ns_-_Konohamaru_Doing_Something_With_His_Life

Since we have a lot of casual High Tiers feats (Like Onoki) and a lot of MHS to MHS + Low-Mid Tiers feats... Decreasing the percentage of Lariat relative to the speed of light is one of the best ways to make the speed completely consistent in verse.
It also makes it much more consistent with Madara's dodge of Tenso no Jutsu :

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AlexSoloVaAlFuturo/Naruto_-_I_Have_No_Comments

No mistery! If the Lariat have 10% of the SoL, Madara's feat will be extremely more consistent!
This will affect basically all the High Tiers and it would affect virtually no Mid Tier or at least, not that I'm remembering right now.

ISSUES WITH THE SCALING
Now, I will present an extreme problem with the current scale and as I think it could improve a little. And I will use my way of thinking about it, that is, as if the Lariat percentage downgrade is applied. Basically, the issues with the scaling is :

• Kakashi is rated as Massively Hypersonic+ for a speed calc of his, but his justification also mentions him keeping up with Pain who is Relativistic for being comparable to Kisame.
• Kabuto is rated as Massively Hypersonic+ for keeping up with Tsunade, but Tsunade is Relativistic+.
• Deidara is rated as Relativistic for being faster than Hidan, but Hidan is Massively Hypersonic+.
• Sasuke is rated as Massively Hypersonic+ for keeping up with Itachi but Itachi is Relativistic.
• Danzo is rated as Relativistic for keeping up with Sasuke but Sasuke is Relativistic+.
• Tenten is Massively Hypersonic+ for fighting a clone of Kisame who is Relativistic.
• Sai Yamanaka is Massively Hypersonic+ for fighting Sasuke and Deidara who are all Relativistic.
• Hanzo is Massively Hypersonic+ for battling Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru who are all Relativistic+.
• Menma Uzumaki is Massively Hypersonic+ for keeping up with Naruto who is Relativistic.

The main problem here is that no one Mid Tiers is really Sub-Relativistic in this case except some Edo versions of some Akatasukis, probably. However, an easy way to fix this would be:

• Kakashi scales to MHS+ on Immortal Arc. Must be Sub-Relativ├¡stic in Pain's Arc, as he keeping up with Tendo and for being comparable to Kisame.
• Kabuto must be MHS+ in its Base and Kabutomaru forms. Only your Sage Mode need to be Sub-Relativ├¡stic, for keeping up with Sasuke EMS and Edo Itachi.
• Deidara should be only MHS+, for keeping up with Hebi Sasuke. Edo Deidara also keep up with Onoki and could be Sub-Relativistic, but it is debatable and I don't know if it would be characterized as Outlier or not.
• Sasuke BoS and Hebi Sasuke should be just MHS+ for keeping up with a Sick Itachi and for react to Kirin. Sasuke Taka must be Sub-Relativistic, for keeping up with Killer B V1 and Casual LCM Ay. I would also think better to create a key for Sick Itachi. He is clearly not that fast and was declared by Zetsu to be with his extremely precarious reaction and speed.
• Danzo should be Sub-Relativ├¡stic for keeping up with Taka Sasuke.
• Tenten should be MHS+. Keeping up with a Kisame clone can easily be characterized as an Outlier, and yet, it has been said that he has only 30% of his power, which means that he was at speed or power at his peak.
• Sai should be only MHS+ for keeping up with Hebi Sasuke.
• Hanzo should be Sub-Relativistic, along with all the Legendary Sanins.
• Menma Uzumaki should be, at most, Sub-Relativ├¡stic for keeping up with Sage Mode Naruto.
• Suigetsu and Juugo should be MHS+, probably for by being comparable to Base Naruto and Kakashi Immortal Arc.

• Basically using Damage's words ... It is simply unbelievable that Sasuke Hebi, the fastest (or at least one of the fastest) Mid Tier has declared that Kirin is impossible to block or deflect.
Although the statement contradicts moments ahead, it gives us the idea that no one at or below his speed level will be able to react or defend himself.
• Suigetsu and Juugo's feats reacting to Bee and Ay's Lariat are basically Outliers. And I will explain some contradictions that have happened in several scenes, to show that such deeds are at best extremely DOUBTFUL.

Juugo was completely and casually subjugated by Base Bee :

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0410-006.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0410-019.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0410-020.png

And even took a speedblitz of Bee in front of him, more of one time. He also reacted to Ay LCM, but easily took several Ay speedblitz, which is comparable to V1 Bee :

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0412-003.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0412-004.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0412-005.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0412-007.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0412-015.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0412-016.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0413-012.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0413-013.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0462-004.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0462-005.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0462-007.png

Even Sasuke will be subjugated with Base Bee in speed, and only reacted to Killer B because he has linear motions and his sharingan helped him :

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0411-017.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0411-018.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0413-010.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0413-011.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0413-014.png

Suigetsu is at most comparable to Juugo. So, it's also outlier for him.

SUPPORT FOR THE STATEMENT
Obviously, the statement comes from Databook, a source written and produced by Kishimoto. And it basically makes a difference between the Verse High Tiers, and all the lower Tiers.

Several characters, who easily are MHS+, classify the Raikages as "super fast / extremely fast" or as having extreme speed.
As a demonstration of this, we have several feats :

• Bee speeding Juugo and traveling hundreds of meters before anyone could notice him.
• We have Ay LCM casually being able to dodge Juugo FCS attacks at close range and attacking him quickly and saying that a mere Sharingan could not defeat him and this is confirmed by C :

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0462-002.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0462-003.png

• We have Ay Top Speed being able to avoid Amaterasu at close range, which is said to be comparable to Kirin and cannot be dodged or blocked :

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0390-023.png https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0463-012.png

• We have Ay Top Speed managing to escape Sasuke's vision:

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0463-013.png
https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0463-014.png

That is, we have a huge difference in verse speed, especially between the Mid and High Tiers. And Lariat is basically the one that defines the difference.

SUPPORTING CONSISTENCY
As stated above, we have also made Madara react and defend herself against Tsunade and Ay while wrapped in Tenso no Jutsu.

Madara, being one of the strongest Top Tiers on the verse, was able to fend off a jutsu that made the object go to speed of light.
Of course, this also shows that there is also a noticeable difference between Top Tiers and High Tiers.

Muu, one of the best sensors on the verse and being able to easily dodge Naruto KCM, being as or even faster than Ay Top Speed and Minato, was unable to catch him off guard and while his back was on, thanks to his great sensory capacity.
However, he was unable to defend himself from Ay Base and Madara was barely able to react to a Tsunade with several injuries.

This not only shows that Madara is much faster than them, but it also shows extreme difficulty defending against speed of light attacks, although it can.

CONCLUSION
With us downgraded a little the Lariat percentage to around 10% and fixing the obvious scaling error that we have today, removing the outliers and making a correct scale. All scaling can be done as accurately as possible.

And the scale would basically be accurate:

• Low Tiers range from MHS to MHS+ at most.
• All the Mid Tiers will be MHS+. And none Mid Tier would range to Sub-Relativistic, with perhaps some exceptions to some Akatsuki's Edo versions (Debatable!).
• High Tiers would become Sub-Relativistic, with Bee and Ay having an attack that can be rushed at Relativistic Speed. None of them would become Relativistic in Combat Speed.
• Only Top Tiers and God Tiers at the very least would be Relativistic.

 

[BlackeJan]

Thats....actually pretty good. I forgot that we even have Genins that are Mass. Hypersonic+ and they are slower then the Jonins that can casually be Mass Hypersonic+ or can be tired and still be that fast

EDIT: Adult Shino even has a calc that shows just how fast the Jonins are and hes fodder to ALL transformation and past Hokages

 

[Damage3245]

@BlackeJan; this is a staff-only thread.

@MostPowerfull; trying to circumvent a basically concluded thread with your wall of text is definitely not appreciated. I've already been given permission to proceed with the revisions, so I shall do so.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Damage

I was finishing my text. If nothing in my text is relevant then I'm fine with it. But I'm sure you used fallacies in your thinking.

And yet, I ask everyone to read what I wrote and if I still can't convince them, go ahead with the CRT.

These are my 2cents. I will not comment on this Staff Thread anymore.

 

[AstralKing7]

Thanks for the hard work MP and I agree staff should read it

 

[BlackeJan]

@BlackeJan; this is a staff-only thread.

@MostPowerfull; trying to circumvent a basically concluded thread with your wall of text is definitely not appreciated. I've already been given permission to proceed with the revisions, so I shall do so.

Yet other people who aren't staff can comment here so yeah imma say what I can also say and also....they need to see what we said too. The reason why u THINK u can proceed is cause no one was saying anything for a while so again no. Ant even said to ask other staff to comment again so why u trying to rush? They need to see what we have as well so u can be patient for this one

 

[Damage3245]

@BlackeJan; AstralKing7 and Jvando recieved permission from DDM, and MostPowerfull got permission from Antvasima to leave one post.

 

[Damage3245]

Now that the revisions are underway, I need to ask if staff are fine with adding a new rule as a consequence of this thread. It would be an addition to an existing rule and I'll post my wording of the proposal here:

• The Naruto databook descriptions should only be used on a case-by-case basis, depending on if the sources are consistent with the manga or are questionable hyperbole.
  • The statement in the 4th Databook for the Raikage's and Killer B's Lariat being "near lightspeed" has been rejected for use in scaling the character's speeds. Avoid trying to use this to support speed upgrades.

Obviously if any new evidence came out, all users would have to do is ask for permission to make a CRT in light of the new evidence.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Probably be best to either list all of the statements we don't and do currently accept. Like a blog post or something. Otherwise the section will probably get rather long.

 

[Damage3245]

That may be a good idea.

 

[Jvando]

Since this also intimately connects with Naruto speeds, I feel the need to ask if a discussion rule against downgrading Raiton should be made since that topic has been discussed and rejected like this topic, on three separate occasions no less.

Just like the statement about Lariat and others from Kishimoto is unreliable, so to are statements from secondary authors that contradict what's been shown in the series.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; I don't see much point for it being made at the moment.

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando; I don't see much point for it being made at the moment.

Why? It's also been discussed and rejected numerous times. If new and credible information comes out, anyone can just ask to make a CRT discussing it

 

[Damage3245]

If you thought it was worth creating a discussion rule about, why didn't you request one be added when it was rejected in the past? Anyway, I don't consider the Raiton matter to be fully rejected, the CRT's for them have mostly just fizzled out. I will return to the issue in the near-future.

Also, I want to apologize about not addressing the Mirai calc tonight; the revision process consumed more my time than I wanted and my version of the calc is only half-done. I'll post it in a sandbox tomorrow morning and explain my points about it then.

 

[Jvando]

It actually was requested in the past, but it likewise kinda fizzled out and was forgotten.

Take your time.

 

[AstralKing7]

...it was requested before but I agree with Jvando. It doesn't matter if we asked then or now; now has given us more opportunity to see how ration was interpreted by non-knowledgeable members. No one stop questioning it so the longer we waited the more evidence that a rule is needed.

I myself was someone who requested it so I definitely remember.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, how about we wait for the next time the revision comes up and if it is firmly rejected by a majority of staff then we can implement the rule for it.

Since that is primary primarily a different topic however I request we put that on hold and revert this thread back to its Staff Only status.

 

[BlackeJan]

Yeah no if it was made like 3 times and was rejected then there again is no point in making one. We can however make a Discussion Rule about Naruto Raiton since u would be the 4th person to talk about it even though this would again be rejected

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

After looking at MostPowerful's post, I think he's making sense here. And yes, you should personally ask a staff member on their way before commented unless you're staff. AstralKing and Jvando were given permission by me, and MostPowerful was given permission by Antvasima.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if other staff members can also look at MostPowerfull's post to evaluate whether or not it makes sense.

 

[Mindovin]

@Ant and DDM

Shouldn't @Damage prove why Lariat statement is unreliable like how it's need to proven reliable reverse should also to be true?

>Even a statement that appears straightforward (which isn't actually a reference to any specific speed value) can be hyperbolic.

This isn't a reason let a legitimate one as its opposite also true.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3533330#Reason_4_-_Unreliability

Reason 4

Databook entry

The taijutsu Lariat pass down in the Village Hidden in the Clouds for generations!! It smashes the arm in which a huge amount of chakra is loaded onto the base of the opponent's neck while rushing almost at the speed of light!! This power blows flesh and body away with one blow, causes a fatal wound !! In the combination technique Double Lariat, which is released by B and the 4th Raikage, the power is doubled, and without even leaving time for the opponent to activate technique it blows the head off.

Also, KB did the same harm and blowing away to Kisame and Samehada both with Lariat which Kisame fused with Samehada to heal. (Chapter 471)

So: Databook completely true to the manga. Tech activation is for Double Lariat not for Lariat. It always called Lariat when Bee uses it alone and when KB and A4 used it together is stated to be Dobule Lariat.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

the text reads extremely hyperbolically. those exclaimation marks though.

 

[Damage3245]

@Mindovin, have you ignored what this entire thread has been about? That most of my arguments so far has been how the speed ratings derived from the Lariat statement are inconsistent with the speed ratings derived from the manga?

It's also funny how the one thing you can't provide a scan for to prove consistency in the manga is that they use the Lariat at nearly lightspeed.

Nowhere is this implied in the manga.

 

[AstralKing7]

Can u actually prove where it's inconsistent?

 

[Damage3245]

Yes. As I laid out in the OP, the statements regarding Kirin make it clear that multiple characters are considered to be incapable of dodging an attack formed from natural lightning - yet using scaling from the Lariat statement would make them dozens, if not hundreds, of times faster than what they should actually be.

MostPowerfull seems to be suggesting ways to avoid the inevitable scaling issues by saying that it is all the slower characters keeping up with the fast characters that are outliers instead of the more obvious solution which is that it is fast characters who are the outlier here - especially when their speed is not supported by the manga and only inferred from a databook statement.

 

[Jvando]

Yes. As I laid out in the OP, the statements regarding Kirin make it clear that multiple characters are considered to be incapable of dodging an attack formed from natural lightning - yet using scaling from the Lariat statement would make them dozens, if not hundreds, of times faster than what they should actually be.

If this is your reasoning, I disagree heavily with it.

The statements indicate that there's no way a ninja can dodge nor block Kirin, true, however, those statements are promptly disproven literally an arc or so later. Itachi blocks Kirin after it is literally boasted to be unblockable and the Raikage dodged Amaterasu which is literally compared to Kirin in speed. Your premise falls apart within the story itself and isn't a good argument to lean on.

Also, be a bit more clear on the "Natural lighting" part of your statement because without context, most people will assume you mean an average lighting speed of Mach 1294 when the timeframe for Kirin is given and it's speed is actually much greater than that, up to Mach 5800 if we use use average cloud height. It falls within our natural lighting range, yes, but it's much faster than what we assume and because we have a way to calculate it, we use that instead of the average assumption. A minor nitpick but people who don't know Naruto would never know Zetsu's statement.

I could care less about how you want to deal with Lariat, though most of the scaling issues simply came from using a high end assumption which caused outlierish calculations. Just note that I heavily disagree with the reasoning I quoted in particular since it's not strong at all. Additionally, the Databook and manga are written by the same author and the purpose is to give us information not provided in the manga. Sure, it has hype all around, but that doesn't mean it needs to be discarded when the Manga makes no note of a similar thing stated in the Databook. You just need to be reasonable with applying Manga statements.

 

[The_Causality]

@Ant I'll contacts the admins to check MostPowerful's answer, we'll gain time.

BTW, should i contact other admin?

 

[Damage3245]

> The statements indicate that there's no way a ninja can dodge nor block Kirin, true, however, those statements are promptly disproven literally an arc or so later. Itachi blocks Kirin after it is literally boasted to be unblockable and the Raikage dodged Amaterasu which is literally compared to Kirin in speed. Your premise falls apart within the story itself and isn't a good argument to lean on.

My argument doesn't depend on the "block" part of the statements at all.

And think about what you're saying for Amaterasu; if it were comparable in speed to lightning then thhink of what that would mean if the Raikage - one of the fastest living Shinobi - required three speed boosts in order to narrowly dodge it.

That greatly suggests that the Raikage is not Relativistic or Relativistic+ as he had been scaled to before.

Your concern over the Raikage dodging Amaterasu is just a point in support of my argument as far as I can tell.

 

[Jvando]

The "block" and "evade" portions of the description of Kirin are equally relevant because they both are descriptions given to this technique that are later disproven within the story itself.

> would mean if the Raikage - one of the fastest living Shinobi - required three speed boosts in order to narrowly dodge it.

Heavily misleading as it implies the Raikage specifically boosted himself dodge Amaterasu and that he was having trouble doing so...none of which is shown in the manga. As a matter of fact, he dodged it when the flame was right in front of him easily. There was no "narrowly" dodging it. There was no struggle on his face nor was there any "!" Denoting surprise. The dude is as cool as ice when he dodges it so I don't know where you're getting "narrowly" from as if he was having trouble. Again, kinda misleading.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's please avoid making any accusations toward Damage. He is just trying hard to be of help.

 

[Jvando]

If you're referring to me, then it wasn't my intention to say he was purposely being misleading more so that his points don't make sense. I apologize if it came off as accusation.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; the "block" part of it is only given by Sasuke who had no knowledge of Susano'o. So just because his knowledge isn't enough to account for Susano'o doesn't really effect the rest of his statements.

By narrowly dodging, I meant that the Raikage moved only a very short distance relative to Amaterasu. And he did specifically boost himself twice in order to avoid Amaterasu. His initial speed boost was his lightning chakra armour, then the 2nd speed boost was to ramp it up even more in anticipation of Amaterasu, and the 3rd speed boost was to just his Teleportation techniuqe to dodge out of the way of it.

 

[Jvando]

Fair enough.



Not from what I see. He dodged it at blank range and moved a much greater distance than the Amaterasu would have needed to hit him. Of course, this feat is impossible to calc but Raikage is >> Kirin

Additionally, the Raikage's speed here has no bearing on Lariat which is specifically an attack which has the effect of boosting speed similar to how we wouldn't scale someone to Shunshin which boosts their speed a much greater amount than base. The issue with Lariat was the 51% SoL assumption which was wayyyy too high. Again, arguing against it is very fair imo, your points just don't support that.

As an aside, where is it stated that Ay boosted his speed?

Edit: nvm I see it

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do agree that Damage did nothing wrong and is simply trying to help out. And at the same time, it doesn't sound like Jvando accused him of anything; though others have in the past. But I do agree that, some more staff members could look at MostPowerful's long post.

 

[Mindovin]

@Damage

Did you read the Cano page? Databook exists for a reason. Doesn't matter it's implied in the manga or not at all because databooks are canon and statement about Lariat is reliable as I proved with the manga scans.

Kirin stated to be can't be evaded because of it's speed by Zetsu. Evaded by the same character.

Sasuke's statement is not about speed at all.

This is Sasuke's statement. Please show me where he mentions travelling speed(moving from A to B).

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/last

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/lasting

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/instant

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/duratio

Not outliers most character isn't scaling to Bee and A4 to begin with who are speedsters of the series at the time.

Kisame's feat is perception and Sasuke's feat is with precognition.

@Jvando

Sasuke doesn't speaks Kirin's travel speed.

The things is we don't have any number how much he amp himself though.

 

[Damage3245]

@Mindovin; Zetsu was never the target of Kirin. He did not evade it, he just sealed himself up inside his shell to defend himself.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; can you let me know where it is stated that the Lariat technique enhances the users speed beyond normal?

 

[The_Calaca]

Okay, I've read through MostPowerfull's post (holy ****) and I think he makes some good points.

For once, IIRC, OPM is Relativistic for a similar statement and it was considered baseline Relativistic from the very beginning. I don't know how this didn't happen with Naruto, but going back to 0.1c seems to be a fair compromise.

The scaling also makes more sense the way he describes it is, and the rest of the missing corrections seems good as well.

I'm leaning towards his point, but if there's any other reason to dismiss the Lariat being even 0.1c, then I might change my opinion.

 

[Damage3245]

@The Calaca; I believe somebody mentioned that the statement from Murata regarding Gerg's attack speed was due to be removed but nobody got around to it. Can't verify that at the moment.

And bumping down the speed of Lariat down to 0.1c still doesn't address the issues I laid out regarding Kirin. Whether Lariat is 0.1c or 0.51c, the problems are still there.

 

[Qawsedf234]

We were going to remove it, but it was decided that due to how expansive he was about the statement it was probably ONE approved or something. Which is why it says and why Gery is getting a AP upgrade.

OPM however also has two other Rel feats and a Sub-Rel feat to draw from outside the Gery thing though.