Issues with Speed [Naruto] (STAFF ONLY)

[Damage3245]

@Qaws; fair. And I think it is worth pointing out that Naruto doesn't have a single Rel calc aside from the Madara calc which is dependant on accepting the Lariat statement in the first place in order to justify it.

So in essence there are no Sub-Rel or Rel feats at all without the Lariat statement.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Just read Mostpowerful's Argument and I agree, it covers mostly the same points i had intended to cover before I lost my work.

 

[AstralKing7]

What issue regarding kirinƒæÇ cause I'm pretty sure I can bring one scan that would debunk no one being fast enough to dodge it since Zetsu states that.

Good thing Zetsu is a reliable source.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I was given permission to comment here by DDM.

@Damage, you need to update the agree/disagree list. Now that shadow and dragon are no longer neutral, and possibly calacanis as well. You also need to stop changing the profiles as well since this thread is not finished.

 

[Damage3245]

@Wrath of Itachi; I was given permission to make the revisions so I have done so. If a new decision is reached for different ratings then the profiles can be updated again.

Calaca and DDM haven't explicitily stated that they disagree with the revisions, just that MostPowerfull is making sense.

I'll move Shadow from Neutral to Disagree though.

 

[Jvando]

@Damage to answer your first question, since the statement is explicitly regarding Lariat and not the Raikage's or Bee's base speed, then we can safely assume the technique boosts their speed beyond normal similar to Shunshin. This isn't odd considering the Raikage can literally do the same thing and amp his speed with his technique.

As for Kirin, I believe I addressed why your points didn't make sense at all. We see the Raikage easily avoid Amaterasu with his Lighting Armor amp to the point that the distance he avoids it is much greater than the distance Amaterasu travels afterward. We can tell this because Amaterasu is still in front of the Raikage's body after he dodged it meaning he traveled a much >>> distance relative to the attack. This matters because Amaterasu is compared to Kirin in speed, the same Jutsu said to be unavoidable yet, a comparable jutsu was avoided? Clearly, the argument that "multiple characters are considered to be incapable of dodging Kirin" falls apart when it's disproven within the story.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm leaning towards agreeing with MostPowerful. I at the very least agree with Lariat's downgrade, and fine with going further and simply not using it. But I think the other feats are still legit.

 

[Damage3245]

@DDM; can I ask which other feats you mean? If it is just the Madara calc, then that feat is definitely made more questionable.

Assuming that the Raikage and Tsunade do in fact scale somewhere in the vicinity of MHS+, then how would the two of them be able to see their targets approaching at lightspeed and be able to accurately throw out attacks like that?

 

[Jvando]

Assuming that the Raikage and Tsunade do in fact scale somewhere in the vicinity of MHS+, then how would the two of them be able to see their targets approaching at lightspeed and be able to accurately throw out attacks like that?

This is under the assumption that they do scale to only MHS+ which may or may not be true based on if 10% is accepted. For another, you wouldn't need to be near LS in order to perceive something while traveling at LS. I wonder if the analogy of fighter pilots controlling fighter jets would be accurate?

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; I'm not sure if the analogy is applicable since fighter pilots don't physically lash out and attack their targets while flying.

 

[The_Causality]

I don't approve the attitude of editing the profiles when the thread isn't concluded yet, new stuff has been brought, peoples who previously agree now are in doubt/disagree with OP's reasoning and there is new disagreement members toward the revision. People should not edit profile due to a previous accepted conclusion when new stuff has been brought to refute them (especially this long MostPowerful's reply) and people who previously agree with OP's reasoning now disgaree, It's basically ignoring the reasoning people still try to add and act like you're right without minding to their opinion, I don't like this attitude.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm talking about the numerous feats brought up by MostPowerful that weren't brought up or addressed before hand.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm talking about the numerous feats brought up by MostPowerful.

All of which are Massively Hypersonic to Massively Hypersonic+?

I think some may be more questionable than others, but even if all of them were acceptable I don't think it does much to impact the current revisions. They're not strong support for Relativistic Lariat or Relativistic Madara.

 

[Jvando]

10% Lariat would grant Sub-Rel feats and since Lariat would only scale to the Raikage's attack speed with that particular technique, the scaling wouldn't not be messed up as we would have MHS, MHS+, Sub-Rel, and Rel.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; You mention that the statement is specific to the Lariat but that doesn't seem to hold up after rereading the databook passage.

The wording of it is that the user performs a Lariat while rushing at nearly lightspeed.

Nothing about the Lariat itself seems to enhance their speed; it's just performed at the speed they are at while they're rushing (aka charging/running) at the enemy.

So as far as I can tell what the proposal is, isn't actually 10% Lightspeed while performing a Lariat specifically but 10% Lightspeed movement speed period for Killer B and the Raikage. After all, we've seen the Raikage throw a punch at Naruto that is supposedly faster than his Lariat, so why would the punch enhance his speed?

You mention the Raikage amping up his speed through another technique (his Lightning Armor), but that doesn't prove the Lariat also enhances the users speed.

 

[Promestein]

I dunno why the databook statement is considered reliable at all, it's textbook hyperbole from something known to be hyperbolic already.

Sub-Rel is better than Rel though

 

[Damage3245]

@Prom; the proposed 10% Lightspeed Lariat is still Relativistic since Relativistic starts at 10%.

 

[AstralKing7]

Prom this site itself agreed to use the databooks as case by case. Kep who was previously in charge of past revisions even pushed this as truth.

 

[Jvando]

In the end though, it only indicates a short burst attacking speed of 10%, not a general all around speed for every movement of the Raikage. Additionally, 10% is baseline Rel, right beside Sub-Rel and we would get Sub-Rel feats from using that which would equalize the scaling.

As of note, if there are calculations made that produce ridiculously high results, those are usually just deemed outliers and discarded. An example is a Haku Part 1 Naruto calc I plan on making that nets massively high results. It will be a legit calc, but the results will be outliers...potentially. Tata even made a 10x LS calc for Itachi from the novel but we do not use it because it was an outlier. I'm just putting that out there.

 

[Jvando]

As an aside, there was a legitimate Sub-Rel feat that was "rejected" (discussion kind of fizzled out) in the past, however, there were points that were never addressed in the post to the point where the discussion died off and WoI asked for it to be closed.

The points never discussed are at the end: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3033230

The first part of the reasoning used was the same reasoning in this thread which is currently proven to be false. (The Zetsu statements and similar things)

The second part about Sasuke dodging Kirin was never completely addressed and discussion was leaning towards rejection but really, it wasn't fully rejected. The last point brought up wasn't discussed at all and it was left hanging.

Since it's relevant to speed in Naruto, I feel like it should be brought up.

 

[Damage3245]

Looking over the end of that thread, even the OP of the thread states that it was rejected before being closed.

> The first part of the reasoning used was the same reasoning in this thread which is currently proven to be false.

No, not proven to be false at all.

You keep on ignoring context in order to justify ignoring the statements from the manga.

The feat of A dodging Amaterasu only happened after the statements were made, right? So before that point, it is possible that Amaterasu has always been undodgeable?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Kirin happened in chapter 391~. The Amaterasu thing happened in 463. But even then I don't see why the Amaterasu being "undodgable" means its the same speed as Kirin.

 

[Jvando]

Kirin happened in chapter 391~. The Amaterasu thing happened in 463. But even then I don't see why the Amaterasu being "undodgable" means its the same speed as Kirin.

Sasuke makes a direct comparison between the two techniques. The speed comparison would make no sense if Amaterasu wasn't relative in speed to Kirin or vice-verse

 

[Qawsedf234]

He says both are unavoidabled and can't be blocked. But the Amaterasu can totally be blocked and that still doesn't mean that they're the same speed. But even if we were to go with "These two jutsu have similar speed", then A still not only move a smaller distance (indicating he's not as fast), it would still heavily contradict the idea he's any notable fraction of lightspeed.

 

[Jvando]

For the first part, WoI simply gave up discussing it but reading through the discussion, there were point in favor that weren't addressed and the thread was left hanging without a definite conclusion.

As for your second point, I am a bit confused as to what you are trying to get at?

 

[Damage3245]

By the way, while we're on the topic of speed feats and whether they're legit or not. I don' think this calc is actually applicable.

The scene in question that is being calced can be found at 1:17:44 in the movie . This calc appears to be flawed due to cinematic timing and there being a cut between the meteors falling from space and making it to the ground.

If other staff members agree then we should remove it from the verse page.

 

[Jvando]

He says both are unavoidabled and can't be blocked. But the Amaterasu can totally be blocked and that still doesn't mean that they're the same speed. But even if we were to go with "These two jutsu have similar speed", then A still not only move a smaller distance (indicating he's not as fast), it would still heavily contradict the idea he's any notable fraction of lightspeed.

At moved a much greater distance relative to the distance the Amaterasu moved, so he would actually be much faster than it. Assuming Kirin is Mach 5800 using average cloud to ground height and Amaterasu is relative to it, Raikage would be well minimum 1% SoL which starts at Mach 8810, though, this isn't a legitimate calc or anything since it would involve calc stacking.

 

[Qawsedf234]

• If the Amaterasu is lightning speed that would still mean A is slower than lightning speed, since he covered a smaller distance in the time it took the jutsu to cross the crater during the Gokage Summit

• If A needs to use an enhanced cloak to move slower than the Amaterasu it doesn't make sense for him to be 340 times faster than it in his V1 lightning armor

Which was Damage's point. If the Amaterasu is lightning speed then that means everyone from the 8 Tails to Nagato couldn't react to it and a heavily speed amped A was still slower than it in terms of total speed. It contradicts the idea that they're 50% lightspeed.

 

[Mindovin]

@Damage

Zetsu is behind Itachi above the hill/mountai > he is still waiting there > Sasuke brings his hands dow in short time > he moves the > somehow evades as he isn't in his previous point . He looking Itachi from above which isn't previous hill anymore as it destroyed. He didn't tank it as he's worried and saying ARGH!! and Gah... such power with a worried expression. Also, WZ isn't that durable to begin with.

@Qawsedf

Sasuke never mentions Kirin's speed (going from A to B) but duration time.

 

[Damage3245]

@Mindovin; why would the duration time of the jutsu make it impossible to evade?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sasuke never mentions Kirin's speed (going from A to B) but duration time.

He doesn't but going by what I got from @Jvando's arguments he's equating the jutsu's lifespan (as in it happens to quickly to react to) to the Amaterasu then saying their speed is similar due to this. Which, even if this is true and they are the exact same speed, it only supports the idea that they are not Rel.

 

[Jvando]

for point #1, the way you would calculate that is take the distance Ay traveled multiplied by the speed of the Jutsu (Mach 5800 for the sake of argument) and divide by the distance the jutsu was away from Ay before he moved. Amaterasu was point blank in front of Ay before he moved.

Your point #2 and #3, we aren't discussing 50% LS Lariat but 10% Which is the compromise we are looking towards. Also, as I explained above, it wouldn't be 340x faster than his V1 cloak anyway. Finally, if Lariat is only 10% SoL and Ay (for the sake of argument) is only equal to Amaterasu in his amped cloak (and Kirin is Mach 5.8k) that would put him at only 15x slower than Lariat.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; and if Lariat doesn't actually enhance his speed, then you'd be arguing that 3 times amped Raikage is 15 times slower than a 1 times amped Raikage.

 

[Mindovin]

@Damage

Because he never compares to Amaterasu but not because of Amaterasu's speed.

Because to Sasuke's knowledge Itachi doesn't have anything to block or evade it.

Like Amaterasu which can't be blocked without protective layer or suitable jutsu (like Tailed Beast shroud, ST, or regen like Orochimaru's Sasuke used it previously which Itachi doesn't have it something like this to Sasuke's knowledge) and has great AOE like Amaterasu which covering upper hill as we shown when Sasuke mentions it.

@Qawsedf

He can't compare their lifespan time because Amaterasu doesn't lasts an instant, it continue to burn 7days 7nights according to databook and in the manga it continues to burn even after Itachi's death iirc. Kirin hits and goes away.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/last

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/lasting

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/instant

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/duratio

Actually, Amaterasu and Kirin exact same speed make it means outlier or like always an author doesn't know of their verse's speed/power scale because of other calcs.

 

[Damage3245]

> Actually, Amaterasu and Kirin exact same speed make it means outlier or like always an author doesn't know of their verse's speed/power scale because of other calcs.

If an author always doesn't know their own verse's speed, then why are you arguing in favor of a databook statement that presumably came from the author?

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando; and if Lariat doesn't actually enhance his speed, then you'd be arguing that 3 times amped Raikage is 15 times slower than a 1 times amped Raikage.

True, but Lariat can be used by both Ver 1 and Ver 2 cloak Bee which we know have a significant speed difference between them. Assuming Lariat is just 10% overall, it would make sense that it's the technique itself which Increases speed. If not that, then it would only mean that they have higher attack speed but it wouldn't scale to movement or the like. Though, considering still that the statement is in regards to Lariat, I don't see why we would try to assume it is referring to the Raikage's or Bee's speed.

Amaterasu was described as being relatively as difficult to evade and block as Kirin. There hasn't been any showing of it being blocked or evaded before more so because it isn't shown much. There isn't an outlier here.

 

[Damage3245]

I think it would be safer not to make the assumption. The statement in the databook read plainly does not indicate a speed boost specific to the technique.

Looking at Killer B's wording after Sasuke dodges his Lariat, he specifically notes that Sasuke is the first person to dodge his Eight Tails form since his brother. Not the first person to dodge his Lariat (which according to you is 10% Lightspeed) but the first person to dodge him with his V1 chakra cloak.

If his Lariat itself was what made him extra fast here, then wouldn't dodging the attack be what is impressive?

This is what leads me to think that the proposal is really for A's and Killer B's movement speed. And therefore why it is inconsistent with the Kirin statements as I originally stated.

 

[Jvando]

I'm going to work soon but I'll address your Kirin statement when I come back since that seems to be the main argument.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, there's no rush.

I've been reviewing the list of calcs posted by MostPowerfull, and so far I think at least one of them should be removed. The meteor calc from the Last suffers from Cinematic Time making the timeframe of the feat appear very short.

 

[MostPowerfull]

Sorry, but I will make just one more comment.

It is stated that Amaterasu burns from the user's line of sight. It is not as if Amaterasu perished from Sasuke's eye to the enemy, it was even seen by Itachi, that Amaterasu simply emerges a few centimeters from where the target is:

https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0389-015.png
[https://**********.com/manga/Naruto/0389-016.png


https://youtu.be/IBwyFK6VqWo?t=28]

For the sake of curiosity, so does Sasuke trying to attack Raikage with Amaterasu in Anime and the same thing happens.

So, Ay apparently dodged Amaterasu when he was inches from him. And it did it casually and effortlessly. So I think he is much faster than Amaterasu.