Issues with Speed [Naruto] (STAFF ONLY)

[Damage3245]

Just a note that we make a habit of recurrently ignoring author intents if the feats strongly contradict them.

A good point. If Kishimoto intended for the databook entry to sound flashy when he stated the Lariat is executed at "near lightspeed" but the majority of feats suggest otherwise for characters that would supposedly scale to it, then the databook statement has less support for it.

 

[Antvasima]

I was thinking of that you seem to wish to downgrade the characters below lightning speed.

 

[Damage3245]

I was thinking of that you seem to wish to downgrade the characters below lightning speed.

Not quite - there are other feats the characters can scale to.

One thing Mindovin has pointed out that I agree on is that the scaling of the verse's speed as a whole (at least as far as Shippuden goes) needs an overhaul.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally do not mind scaling the speeds from the databook statement, but I am not the best person to ask.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> Because if from their perspective evading lightning would be considered a nigh-impossible feat, then it makes no sense for the majority of the verse to be several times faster than that as of the time they made those statements

this is not always a bulletproof argument, considering the fact that authors might just not know how strong their stories are and things like unreliable narrators existing.

there are many instances of characters making huge deals about something that they should logically not be. Like Dyspo, for example, being faster than sound being the focus point of his character despite Dragonball reaching MFTL speeds way earlier

 

[Damage3245]

@Shadow; I see what you mean, but if we're looking for consistency then I believe that there are more feats that support those characters being in the range of MHS+ or lower than Relativistic.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I agree for the most part however I don't see why the ones we do that are performed by characters far higher should be disregarded because characters weaker don't have similar feats

it should be a case by case thing

 

[Damage3245]

I agree for the most part however I don't see why the ones we do that are performed by characters far higher should be disregarded because characters weaker don't have similar feats
it should be a case by case thing

Because those weaker characters are currently scaling to the stronger characters.

And if the weaker characters with the more consistent speed feats are what is most correct, then (looking at it case by case) some of the highest feats may possibly be outliers.

 

[Mindovin]

Just a note that we make a habit of recurrently ignoring author intents if the feats strongly contradict them.

Feats are author intents too as the same person either draws and writes or gave their okay for it or big companies who has big cosmology could give this to leader of the writers they appointed.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> Because those weaker characters are currently scaling to the stronger characters.

the problem would then be the backwards scaling.

> And if the weaker characters with the more consistent speed feats are what is most correct, then (looking at it case by case) some of the highest feats may possibly be outliers.

it would depend on the context because despite the name consistency doesn't suddenly negate something being an outlier and the reverse is true, this is why despite Post-crisis having more universal level feats than solar system we have him at 4-B because we have the context for why it's an outlier outside of it just being inconsistent with the rest

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@Mindovin

Ant is referring to authorial intent outside of the main text

 

[Antvasima]

@Mindovin

Ant is referring to authorial intent outside of the main text

That is correct, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, if the databooks explicitly state that a certain character can move at half lightspeed, and this is not strongly contradicted by the story, I do not mind scaling from it.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima, understood, but the point of this thread is that I believe the story does contradict it.

Also, the statement isn't for 'half lightspeed' but 'near lightspeed' which can be anywhere from 1% to 99% according to DT.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I completely agree about Choji and Shikamaru's argument but I feel like I should cover the points I disagree with, I was waiting to hear Tata's Input before I gave my final verdict but he seems to be MIA and I don't want to drag the CRT out.

so to avoid quoting walls of text my digits should correspond with yours in the OP Damage.

ill post soon.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

Be careful to copy the text before you post. Fandom is buggy and recurrently automatically deletes the posts.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

it's taking a bit longer than I thought because im currently at work and can only write when I have off, so ill see if I can finish it up by my next break

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

so I just posted it and it got deleted, I'm at work so I'm unsure if I was able to copy everything
this sucks;/

ill rather address it when I get onto a computer as using the mobile version isnt ideal for copying and keeping work

 

[Damage3245]

Man, I hate it whenever I type out a large response and I forget to back it up so when I try to post it, it deletes itself.

I recommend avoiding a large post trying to respond to everything. Just write about the thing you disagree most with first.

 

[Antvasima]

That's why I told you to copy the text before you posted it. So you can paste and post it again.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, if anything takes more than 20 minutes to type, this significantly increases the chances of it being deleted, so always try to remember to copy the text of such posts before you try to submit them.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

My phone isnt ideal for copying so many words, so ill rather just adress it 1 thing at a time as damage suggested but ill do it once i get home.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[The_Calaca]

Useful advice: If you lose your work and you're on a computer, don't reload the page. Just open the textbox again and Ctrl+Z to get the text back.

 

[Antvasima]

Is there some similar method for a mobile phone or tablet?

 

[The_Calaca]

Not that I'm aware of, sadly. Just copypaste the text before posting. If something goes wrong, you have the backup.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed.

 

[Damage3245]

My phone isnt ideal for copying so many words, so ill rather just adress it 1 thing at a time as damage suggested but ill do it once i get home.

Do you still have issues with it that need to be addressed?

 

[Damage3245]

Spoken with Shadow on his message wall and he has asked that he be considered neutral for this topic.

Does anyone else have any objections to proceeding with the CRT? Because I believe the majority have so far indicated that they are generally in favor of it.

 

[Mindovin]

Sorry for late reply I didn't really saw your response until an hour ago.

Because if from their perspective evading lightning would be considered a nigh-impossible feat, then it makes no sense for the majority of the verse to be several times faster than that as of the time they made those statements.

As I said above: "if from their perspective evading lightning would be considered a nigh-impossible feat, then it makes no sense for the majority of the verse to be several times faster than that as of the time they made those statements."

> From what I understand your main points relies on Zetsu and Sasuke's impossible to evade statement. Then let's clear it first.

This is for hyping a character and it's common. This attack kills in one hit- tanked, you can't react this, reacted, this attack impobssible to avoid, avoided. Whatever Zetsu says Itachi both reacted, tanked and technially evade it.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/evade

Zetsu says No one can evade this jutsu just like Amaterasu Sasuke run for a short time and technically evaded it and A4 completely evaded it.

Zetsu and Sasuke says it's impossible to evade and Itachi evaded it also mentally reacted.

Now answer this. If we take their statement face value, how do you we trust them on this? How Zetsu knows Itachi's speed or Sasuke's or any other character we introduced later (A4, KB, Madara, Minato) speed to decide that. This characters introuced far later and their feats cames later from this statement. If anything Zetsu statement seens retconned.

Sasuke does know about their capablities seeing as he's been with them since he recruited them and stopped them from fighting each other.

> This doesn't mean he knows their full capabilities. stopped them from fighting each other =/= seeing them in a real life and death situation or seeing their full capabilities and they aren't fightning to begin with as iirc he prevents any fighting. Is he tasted their capabilites? Do you have any proof of it?

Then you must be agreeing with my point then? Killer B travelling in a linear fashion or Sasuke using Sharingan precog doesn't alter the fact the statement from the databook is rendered false.

> What I'm saying is both Bee's Lariat and A4/Bee's Double Lariat is same speed. Databook is as I proved. Instead of saying it's false try to prove it why it is false from proofs from databook and manga.

Reposting it:

I said basically is what you try to prove databook entry about Lariat is actually true, The entry mentions Double Lariat is the version that the technique leaves no time at all for opponents to activate a jutsu. Databook entry says that for DL and not Lariat so it correct for whatever reason speed isn't revelant. So, databook entry reliable and with supported by manga.

Also, I want to adress your Sasuke put Bee into Genjutsu argument with new points.

1) Sasuke reacts to 3Tails Bee using Sharingan's precog ability because Bee moving is linear and it makes easier .

2) When Sasuke use Genjutsu on Bee, the man announces himself before it and Sasuke uses MS this time which should increase his precog further than 3T.

And that's a separate topic to what we're discussing.

> It's really revelant to the topic. From what I understand from your points even god-tiers needs to be downgraded below Mach 2k or Kirin calc or something (I don't know) and never able move beyond natural lightning speed or Kirin calc.

About scaling, Pain and Kakashi never scale to A4 or KB really but this for another thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you write a list of the people who agree, disagree, and are neutral please?

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; Only ones I'm confident of at this point are:

Agree: WeeklyBattles; The real cal howard, Qawsedf234, DarkDragonMedeus (DDM seems to agree with most of the OP at least, but questions other parts),

Neutral: Shadowbokunohero

Disagree; Mindovin, TataHakai

@Mindovin; I'll write out a response to you soon.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. This does not seem clear-cut yet then.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; maybe not clear-cut but the majority at least favor it.

@Mindovin:

> This is for hyping a character and it's common.

This has no bearing on its usefulness in the argument.

> Zetsu says No one can evade this jutsu just like Amaterasu A4 completely evaded it and Sasuke run for a short time and technically evaded it.

The Raikage dodging Amaterasu happened after the statement was made. So my point still stands since the statement was made with Zetsu's knowledge at the time.

> Sasuke run for a short time and technically evaded it and A4 completely evaded it.

Sasuke didn't actually evade it since he was hit by it as you know.

> Zetsu and Sasuke says it's impossible to evade and Itachi evaded it also mentally reacted.

Itachi blocked it using a technique Sasuke had no idea existed. Mentally reacting to it has nothing to do with my point (plus it doesn't exactly require a lot of reaction speed seeing as he watched the Kirin being formed and knew it was going to hit him)

> If we take their statement face value, how do you we trust them on this? How Zetsu knows Itachi's speed or Sasuke's or any other character we introduced later (A4, KB, Madara, Minato) speed to decide that. This characters introuced far later and their feats cames later from this statement. If anything Zetsu statement retconned.

That doesn't mean the statement was retconned, that just means that Black Zetsu isn't omniscient. The statement is still totally fine for use.

> This doesn't mean he knows their full capabilities. stopped them from fighting each other =/= seeing them in a real life and death situation. Is he tasted their capabilites? Do you have any proof of it?

Do you have any reason to think he wouldn't know roughly how fast they are? He was with Orochimaru's group for years, and recruited them to help fight the Akatsuki. Why would he think they're slower than lightning if they're all secretly Relativistic?

> What I'm saying is both Bee's Lariat and A4/Bee's Double Lariat is same speed. Databook is as I proved. Instead of saying it's false try to prove it why it is false from proofs from databook and manga.

If that's what you're saying then aren't you agree with me?

> It's really revelant to the topic. From what I understand from your points even god-tiers needs to be downgraded below Mach 2k or Kirin calc or something (I don't know) and never able move beyond natural lightning speed or Kirin calc.

Not quite. The specific scaling is something that will need to be decided upon, but my argument is not "The God Tiers can't be faster than Kirin".

> About scaling, Pain and Kakashi never scale to A4 or KB really but this for another thread.

What, did Pain fighting KCM Naruto never happen?

 

[Mindovin]

The Raikage dodging Amaterasu happened after the statement was made. So my point still stands since the statement was made with Zetsu's knowledge at the time.

> And how Zetsu and Sasuke's statements effects ninjas that we introduced after the statements was made or they don't know anything about?

Sasuke didn't actually evade it since he was hit by it as you know.

> He runs from it for a short time, he hit by it because he want to use rege to prepare Kiri (he needs to be out of Itachi's sight), he doesn't even use complete CM when runnnig actually he lowers it.

Itachi blocked it using a technique Sasuke had no idea existed. Mentally reacting to it has nothing to do with my point (plus it doesn't exactly require a lot of reaction speed seeing as he watched the Kirin being formed and knew it was going to hit him)

> I agree about MR (I confused that with Susano'o activation speed as he does it last moment). He evaded with the dictionary definition.

And how we can trust Zetsu and Sasuke's statement for ninjas that we introduced later and why this effects later arcs and characters?

To me, Sasuke's reason for can't be blocked and evaded statement is because of Kirin's AOE because he compares it to Amaterasu when he mentions them and mentions Kirin's active(?) time with it only lasts an instant.

Suigetsu, Darui and Juugo's reasonings are not solid enough / seems false to me maybe some other character's too.

That doesn't mean the statement was retconned, that just means that Black Zetsu isn't omniscient. The statement is still totally fine for use.

> Then you need to prove he knows other ninja's capabilities and why it should this statement include the characters we introduced later. With your previous points I assume you only include previous characters we know their forms prior to Zetsu and Sasuke's statements?

With your previous point and now why do you think the calc is outlier?

> This doesn't mean he knows their full capabilities. stopped them from fighting each other =/= seeing them in a real life and death situation. Is he tasted their capabilites? Do you have any proof of it?

Do you have any reason to think he wouldn't know roughly how fast they are? He was with Orochimaru's group for years, and recruited them to help fight the Akatsuki. Why would he think they're slower than lightning if they're all secretly Relativistic?

> As I explained before:

Sasuke didn't fight alongside them until that point and he wouldn't know about their capabilities because: Karin was prison/lab manager, Suigetsu was a captive in a tank and Juugo was a test subject.

You need to bring proof as you made the claim he knows their full capabilities. I'm asking how he knows their full capabilities for reasons I mentioned and you said recruit them and stopped them from fighting each other which doesn't indicates he knows their full capabilities for reasons I explained above and my previous reply.

I believe his reasons for their recruitment comes from their ability and loyalty (Karin is healer and exceptional sensor, Suigetsu has a good KKG, Jugo is powerful -compared to Orochimaru's general henchmen- and has useful KKG) Karin and Jugo are really loyal and Suigetsu easily persuaded and they are the most powerful of Orochimaru's group beside Kabuto and himself.

Why would he think they're slower than lightning if they're all secretly Relativistic?

> This because of the difference between authors doesn't knowing or caring their verse' speed and strength and this wiki basing on calcs. From what I see generally we care more about calcs then author statements, author statements need to be around (not being outlier) calcs not the other way around.

> What I'm saying is both Bee's Lariat and A4/Bee's Double Lariat is same speed. Databook is as I proved. Instead of saying it's false try to prove it why it is false from proofs from databook and manga.

If that's what you're saying then aren't you agree with me?

> Otherwise, I would say I'm neutral or agreed or never say anything.

Not quite. The specific scaling is something that will need to be decided upon, but my argument is not "The God Tiers can't be faster than Kirin"

> It's comes to that though. I mean if it's impossible to dodge real lightning then why should they have higher speeds? Even if not God-tiers, top-tiers certainly included as we can make argument for god-tiers scale down to somehow (and they don't have any calc from what I see).

Also, what do you think about several MHS+ calcs, should we disregard them?

What speed do you want them to? Can you give example like Sasuke going to be this speed or not above this speed or something? I'm really curious about it.

What, did Pain fighting KCM Naruto never happen?

> It was Nagato, which gained both power up and speed in WA. I mean going from PA SM Naruto>>>Paths=Base Naruto without a tech to Nagato(which still barely able to walk)>KCM Naruto and 4(?) Tails KB is surely getting a power up. They need to stay relevant so they got power/speed up.

I look trough speed scaling and Narutoverse speed scaling is bs and that to me comes from no keys most of the time and without looking into further context/fights. Orochimaru scales to somehow Rel+ which he has no key for this reason (he shouldn't scale to Rel+ to begin with though) scales to Tsunade, Hiruzen and they scale to bunch of other characters and this continues to the beginning of Part 2 and nearly Part 1.

This accepted or not there is need to be another thread for scaling.

I was going to say I'm shocked Konohamaru isn't scaling but he scales too.


Summarizing both of what we are discussing and decided (to me).

Reason 1 = Databook exist for a reason. I think Naruto reacting to A4 should calc without using Lariat's speed or someone find the calc in question (I couldn't find it).

Reason 2 = We are still discussing about it. Zetsu's statement doesn't hold it.

Reason 3 = I think we both agree scaling is bs but I'm not sure if you are agreeing that it needs to be discuss in another thread and doesn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

Though I don't know your thoughts on my: Sasuke's team doesn't scale to any version of Lariat or similar speeds when they barely reacted and blitzed several times by lower forms of KB and later by A4 which makes it Rel+ outlier if anything.

Reason 4 = Still discussing and I'm waiting your response about it.

Reason 5 = I think you agreed about my point which is Madara reacted and Gai bypassed TSO staff.

My take all discussion until this point and decision:

Most of your points goes back to the scaling chain.

Prior to this statement no one scales to Rel or Rel+ (who doesn't have feat(s) later)) who doesn't up by ET or something and characters mainly scale from the calcs.

After this statement they have the possibility to scale to Rel(+) and some characters need new keys.

If you think Madara reacting to LS transportation calc is iffy not because it's outlier you really need another thread for it with previous participants joining.

 

[Damage3245]

> And how Zetsu and Sasuke's statements effects ninjas that we introduced after the statements was made or they don't know anything about?

Via scaling. The characters their statements affects, also affects other characters due to scaling.

> He runs from it for a short time, he hit by it because he want to use regen to prepare Kirin (he needs to be out of Itachi's sight), he doesn't even use complete CM when runnnig actually he lowers it.

I don't think this is fully relevant; if anything he's just evading Itachi's eyesight not the Amaterasu itself.

> And why reason do you think his can't be blocked or evaded statement any kind of truth? Sasuke also says it's impossible to block which Itachi blocks. Sasuke has no idea about characters or anything really.

Because it was only blocked by something Sasuke had no knowledge about. That's my point.

> To me, Sasuke's reason for can't be blocked and evaded statement is because of Kirin's AOE because he compares it to Amaterasu when he mentions them and mentions Kirin's active(?) time with it only lasts an instant.

That goes against the reason given in the manga, which is because of its speed.

> With your previous point and now why do you think the calc is outlier?

What do you mean?

> You need to bring proof as you made the claim he knows their full capabilities. I'm asking how he knows their full capabilities for reasons I mentioned and you said recruit them and stopped them from fighting each other which doesn't indicates he knows their full capabilities for reasons I explained above and my previous reply.

Those reasons are good enough for me.

> This because of the difference between authors doesn't knowing or caring their verse' speed and strength and this wiki basing on calcs. From what I see generally we care more about calcs then author statements, author statements need to be around (not being outlier) calcs not the other way around.

This isn't an author statement. It's a character statement.

> Also, what do you think about several MHS+ calcs, should we disregard them?

Some of them, but for different reasons.

> It's comes to that though. I mean if it's impossible to dodge real lightning then why should they have higher speeds? Even if not God-tiers, top-tiers certainly included as we can make argument for god-tiers scale down to somehow (and they don't have any calc from what I see).

We'd put the God Tiers to MHS+, or MHS+ & likely higher for now. Until we find a better way of scaling them.

> What speed do you want them to? Can you give example like Sasuke going to be this speed or not above this speed or something? I'm really curious about it.

Getting into the exact scaling is going to be a whole other long conversation. Let's discuss this afterwards.

> They need to stay relevant so they got power/speed up.

We can't just make up them getting a power up because it would fit our scaling better. We might need to accept that our scaling is wrong.

> I look trough speed scaling and Narutoverse speed scaling is bs

> This accepted or not there is need to be another thread for scaling.

This is something we agree on.

> Sasuke's team doesn't scale to any version of Lariat or similar speeds when they barely reacted and blitzed several times by lower forms of KB and later by A4 which makes it Rel+ outlier if anything.

Are we agreeing that it is an outlier now?

> If you think Madara reacting to LS transportation calc is iffy not because it's outlier you really need another thread for it with previous participants joining.

I think it is both iffy and an outlier.

 

[Mindovin]

@Ant

Also, after all this discussion they need to state re-vote and reason(s) for it.

Also, The real cal howard didn't vote. Just asked is there new threads/blogs/discussions and stated There hasn't been new information since kaguya came out. which Kaguya first came out June 2014 (chapter 679) and he didn't state any opinion about agreeing, disagreeing or being neutral.