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@Mindovin; Cal stated his agreement on the previous thread.
But sure, staff should re-vote and state their reasons.
But sure, staff should re-vote and state their reasons.
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Issues with Speed [Naruto] (STAFF ONLY)
- Thread starter Damage3245
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Overall my mind still hasn't really been changed. The lariat calc has large scaling issues and is contradicted by direct manga statements like with Kirin. While I do see arguments for Rel 8 Gates Guy due to bending space or Naruto dodging the lightfang, I ultimately don't believe the lariat is solid enough ability to base the majority of Part II at speed wise when almost everything else is much slower and less impressive.
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^Damage3245 said:
This
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Basically: We need scaling thread.
Via scaling. The characters their statements affects, also affects other characters due to scaling.
> Then this thread should wait and someone create a new thread about scaling and when it's done we return it.
That goes against the reason given in the manga, which is because of its speed.
> Zetsu isn't reliable as what he says disregarded in the manga and he also evade the attack.
Zetsu is behind Itachi above the hill/mountai>he is still waiting there> Sasuke brings his hands down in short time > he moves then I guess (from movement lines) > somehow evades .
I already explained Sasuke already thinks it can't be evaded because of AOE as he compares it to Amaterasu about can't be blocked and evaded and mentions it only lasts an instant which is the only speed statement from Sasuke which isn't related to lightning speed or something similar and Zetsu's statements just for hyping Itachi.
Zetsu further solidifies this with No one can evade the the jutsu... J(j)ust like the Amaterasu .
> What do you mean?
> You said The Raikage dodging Amaterasu happened after the statement was made. So my point still stands since the statement was made with Zetsu's knowledge at the time. and That doesn't mean the statement was retconned, that just means that Black Zetsu isn't omniscient. The statement is still totally fine for use. and because of this I asked why should LST calc should be accepted as outlier?
Why statement can't be used later characters and characters that Zetsu and Sasuke doesn't know?
This isn't an author statement. It's a character statement.
> It shows what Kishi thinks about his verse's speed. He is the one writing it not Zetsu and/or Sasuke.
We'd put the God Tiers to MHS+, or MHS+ & likely higher for now. Until we find a better way of scaling them.
> So they are around Mach 1000-1200?
Getting into the exact scaling is going to be a whole other long conversation. Let's discuss this afterwards.
> I'm not asking about scaling but speed.
> They need to stay relevant so they got power/speed up.
We can't just make up them getting a power up because it would fit our scaling better. We might need to accept that our scaling is wrong.
> Because of their feats/statements etc. they became clearly more powerful. I'm bring reasoning, bring yours. Our scaling is already wrong. Wrong info and without looking into further context/fight. Also, we should discuss this in scaling thread.
Are we agreeing that it is an outlier now?
> I said from the start Jugo didn't react it with his normal speed barely did it too and he barely can handle base KB and A4 in later arc. If he is accepted that he reacted to 3T KB's attack then it's outlier because as I stated he barely can handle base KB blitzed by A4.
Via scaling. The characters their statements affects, also affects other characters due to scaling.
> Then this thread should wait and someone create a new thread about scaling and when it's done we return it.
That goes against the reason given in the manga, which is because of its speed.
> Zetsu isn't reliable as what he says disregarded in the manga and he also evade the attack.
Zetsu is behind Itachi above the hill/mountai>he is still waiting there> Sasuke brings his hands down in short time > he moves then I guess (from movement lines) > somehow evades .
I already explained Sasuke already thinks it can't be evaded because of AOE as he compares it to Amaterasu about can't be blocked and evaded and mentions it only lasts an instant which is the only speed statement from Sasuke which isn't related to lightning speed or something similar and Zetsu's statements just for hyping Itachi.
Zetsu further solidifies this with No one can evade the the jutsu... J(j)ust like the Amaterasu .
> What do you mean?
> You said The Raikage dodging Amaterasu happened after the statement was made. So my point still stands since the statement was made with Zetsu's knowledge at the time. and That doesn't mean the statement was retconned, that just means that Black Zetsu isn't omniscient. The statement is still totally fine for use. and because of this I asked why should LST calc should be accepted as outlier?
Why statement can't be used later characters and characters that Zetsu and Sasuke doesn't know?
This isn't an author statement. It's a character statement.
> It shows what Kishi thinks about his verse's speed. He is the one writing it not Zetsu and/or Sasuke.
We'd put the God Tiers to MHS+, or MHS+ & likely higher for now. Until we find a better way of scaling them.
> So they are around Mach 1000-1200?
Getting into the exact scaling is going to be a whole other long conversation. Let's discuss this afterwards.
> I'm not asking about scaling but speed.
> They need to stay relevant so they got power/speed up.
We can't just make up them getting a power up because it would fit our scaling better. We might need to accept that our scaling is wrong.
> Because of their feats/statements etc. they became clearly more powerful. I'm bring reasoning, bring yours. Our scaling is already wrong. Wrong info and without looking into further context/fight. Also, we should discuss this in scaling thread.
Are we agreeing that it is an outlier now?
> I said from the start Jugo didn't react it with his normal speed barely did it too and he barely can handle base KB and A4 in later arc. If he is accepted that he reacted to 3T KB's attack then it's outlier because as I stated he barely can handle base KB blitzed by A4.
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@Mindovin, I'll respond to the rest of what you've wrote tomorrow morning but for your last point you seem to misunderstand my argument; Itachi defying Sasuke's and Black Zetsu's statement does nothing to affect my argument.
As for the scaling part of this, would it make it easier if I wrote out a proposed scaling chain?
As for the scaling part of this, would it make it easier if I wrote out a proposed scaling chain?
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> Zetsu isn't reliable as what he says disregarded in the manga and he also evade the attack.
How does this mean the statement isn't reliable for use? And Zetsu didn't avoid it, just shielded himself and wasn't the target of the attack anyway.
> I already explained Sasuke already thinks it can't be evaded because of AOE as he compares it to Amaterasu about can't be blocked and evaded and mentions it only lasts an instant which is the only speed statement from Sasuke which isn't related to lightning speed or something similar and Zetsu's statements just for hyping Itachi.
Saying it is because of the AOE is head-canon. The only reason we're given in the manga is the speed. Both from Sasuke and Black Zetsu.
> and because of this I asked why should LST calc should be accepted as outlier?
Because everything and everyone else in the verse is MHS+ and it's the only Relativistic calc.
> Why statement can't be used later characters and characters that Zetsu and Sasuke doesn't know?
I've already responded to this point. It affects them because of scaling.
> So they are around Mach 1000-1200?
No. I'll work on a list of proposed speed ratings.
> Because of their feats/statements etc. they became clearly more powerful. I'm bring reasoning, bring yours. Our scaling is already wrong. Wrong info and without looking into further context/fight. Also, we should discuss this in scaling thread.
Sure, let's discuss it later.
> I said from the start Jugo didn't react it with his normal speed barely did it too and he barely can handle base KB and A4 in later arc. If he is accepted that he reacted to 3T KB's attack then it's outlier because as I stated he barely can handle base KB blitzed by A4.
Looks like we're in agreement that Relativistic for some characters is an outlier at least.
Most of your argument Mindovin just seems to revolve around ignoring the statements from Sasuke and Black Zetsu - even though there is no legitimate reason to not use the statements as much as we can.
How does this mean the statement isn't reliable for use? And Zetsu didn't avoid it, just shielded himself and wasn't the target of the attack anyway.
> I already explained Sasuke already thinks it can't be evaded because of AOE as he compares it to Amaterasu about can't be blocked and evaded and mentions it only lasts an instant which is the only speed statement from Sasuke which isn't related to lightning speed or something similar and Zetsu's statements just for hyping Itachi.
Saying it is because of the AOE is head-canon. The only reason we're given in the manga is the speed. Both from Sasuke and Black Zetsu.
> and because of this I asked why should LST calc should be accepted as outlier?
Because everything and everyone else in the verse is MHS+ and it's the only Relativistic calc.
> Why statement can't be used later characters and characters that Zetsu and Sasuke doesn't know?
I've already responded to this point. It affects them because of scaling.
> So they are around Mach 1000-1200?
No. I'll work on a list of proposed speed ratings.
> Because of their feats/statements etc. they became clearly more powerful. I'm bring reasoning, bring yours. Our scaling is already wrong. Wrong info and without looking into further context/fight. Also, we should discuss this in scaling thread.
Sure, let's discuss it later.
> I said from the start Jugo didn't react it with his normal speed barely did it too and he barely can handle base KB and A4 in later arc. If he is accepted that he reacted to 3T KB's attack then it's outlier because as I stated he barely can handle base KB blitzed by A4.
Looks like we're in agreement that Relativistic for some characters is an outlier at least.
Most of your argument Mindovin just seems to revolve around ignoring the statements from Sasuke and Black Zetsu - even though there is no legitimate reason to not use the statements as much as we can.
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How does this mean the statement isn't reliable for use? And Zetsu didn't avoid it, just shielded himself and wasn't the target of the attack anyway.
> Adressed in the below.
Saying it is because of the AOE is head-canon. The only reason we're given in the manga is the speed. Both from Sasuke and Black Zetsu.
> No, what you say is headcanon if you won't going prove it with statement and why it's wrong / headcanon. Just saying head-canon isn't proving anything. I'm bringing statements, scans and you say headcanon? Really?
The only reason we're given in the manga is the speed.
> Then you shouldn't have any problem with proving it and show why Sasuke compares Kirin's can't be blocked and can't be evaded to Amaterasu and Zetsu further solidifies it Sasuke compares that abilities of Kirin to Amaterasu.
Because everything and everyone else in the verse is MHS+ and it's the only Relativistic calc.
> We have also databook entry and today I'm going to request calcs for Minato and Naruto using Jvando's or normal values for speed but I need to organize scans first.
I've already responded to this point. It affects them because of scaling.
> And you, me and some of staff already said scaling is extremely wrong. This is a scaling issue which has nothing to the with Lariat statement or calcs when most of the lower characters going to scale to begin with. Also, scaling needs to be more strict then before because A4 is the fastest of his time after Minato's death until Naruto used KCM, so not everyone scales to him.
Looks like we're in agreement that Relativistic for some characters is an outlier at least.
Most of your argument Mindovin just seems to revolve around ignoring the statements from Sasuke and Black Zetsu - even though there is no legitimate reason to not use the statements as much as we can.
> Feat done by speedsters of the verse applies to every god damn character in the series of course Rel speed (except reaction as I explained in the below) it's a NO for characters except A4 and Bee, for characters who upped by some sort or with some ability and/or reaction only.
Not ignoring but proving that statement taken out of context, misinterpreted and taken at face value when it contradicted by the same character who made the statement. I'm not ignoring but explaining it.
Sasuke should be Rel+ reaction with precog for linear movement and explanied it isn't usable for non-linear movement(as I stated several times in the same blog and later in the thread iirc not this detailed and with the weakness though) and Kisame's Rel is perception / reaction not movement, there are reasons for it but that's for scaling thread and I don't want to make it more longer than this reply already is.
> Adressed in the below.
Saying it is because of the AOE is head-canon. The only reason we're given in the manga is the speed. Both from Sasuke and Black Zetsu.
> No, what you say is headcanon if you won't going prove it with statement and why it's wrong / headcanon. Just saying head-canon isn't proving anything. I'm bringing statements, scans and you say headcanon? Really?
The only reason we're given in the manga is the speed.
> Then you shouldn't have any problem with proving it and show why Sasuke compares Kirin's can't be blocked and can't be evaded to Amaterasu and Zetsu further solidifies it Sasuke compares that abilities of Kirin to Amaterasu.
Because everything and everyone else in the verse is MHS+ and it's the only Relativistic calc.
> We have also databook entry and today I'm going to request calcs for Minato and Naruto using Jvando's or normal values for speed but I need to organize scans first.
I've already responded to this point. It affects them because of scaling.
> And you, me and some of staff already said scaling is extremely wrong. This is a scaling issue which has nothing to the with Lariat statement or calcs when most of the lower characters going to scale to begin with. Also, scaling needs to be more strict then before because A4 is the fastest of his time after Minato's death until Naruto used KCM, so not everyone scales to him.
Looks like we're in agreement that Relativistic for some characters is an outlier at least.
Most of your argument Mindovin just seems to revolve around ignoring the statements from Sasuke and Black Zetsu - even though there is no legitimate reason to not use the statements as much as we can.
> Feat done by speedsters of the verse applies to every god damn character in the series of course Rel speed (except reaction as I explained in the below) it's a NO for characters except A4 and Bee, for characters who upped by some sort or with some ability and/or reaction only.
Not ignoring but proving that statement taken out of context, misinterpreted and taken at face value when it contradicted by the same character who made the statement. I'm not ignoring but explaining it.
Sasuke should be Rel+ reaction with precog for linear movement and explanied it isn't usable for non-linear movement(as I stated several times in the same blog and later in the thread iirc not this detailed and with the weakness though) and Kisame's Rel is perception / reaction not movement, there are reasons for it but that's for scaling thread and I don't want to make it more longer than this reply already is.
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Also, you ignored my replies to your; unreliability, and Madara Inconsistency reasons. I'm going to post replies again to all of your reasons. If you are conceding about a point please state it and remove from the OP.
Reason 1
> Databook exist for a reason as I stated. Databooks adds to the manga especially when it's true to the manga like with Lariat entry.
I requested the calcs, now waiting time.
Reason 2
Sasuke's reasons for can't be blocked and evaded statement for Kirin not because of it's speed.
He first states how long Kirin LASTS with saying lasts for an instant. He is mentioning the duration of Kirin (Last/lasting have nothing to the with speed of travelling from point A to B).
Then mentions just like Amaterasu how it can't be blocked and avoided. He directly compares Kirin's unblockable and unavoidable parts to the Ameterasu with saying just like the Amaterasu. Zetsu further solidifies this with asking in confusion No One Can Evade The Jutsu... Just Like The Amaterasu? .(they aren't separated sentences). For more explanations why Sasuke's and Zetsu's can't be evaded statements aren't connected
So, he compares it to Amaterasu when he says just like the Amaterasu, it can't be blocked (he doesn't know about Susano'o like @Damage said) and evaded (Kirin's AOE is great like Amaterasu, it destroyed the entire hill and we shown Amaterasu covering the hill as Sasuke said it Also, considering Sasuke also used Amaterasu's heat in this version to make it greater than his previous versions this means his test versions' -we don't know how many time he test it- AOE is smaller than this version)
Like Amaterasu which can't be blocked without protective layer or suitable jutsu (like Tailed Beast shroud, ST, or regen like Orochimaru's Sasuke used it previously which Itachi doesn't have it something like this to Sasuke's knowledge) and has great AOE as I mentioned.
Zetsu is behind Itachi above the hill/mountai > he is still waiting there > Sasuke brings his hands dow in short time > he moves the > somehow evades as he isn't in his previous point . He looking Itachi from above which isn't previous hill anymore as it destroyed. He didn't tank it as he's worried and saying ARGH!! and Gah... such power with a worried expression. Also, WZ isn't that durable to begin with.
Zetsu's claim that natural lightning can't be evaded (which isMach 1294) is either outlier, hyping text and/or Kishi doesn't know his verse's speed. When the 3 character in question somehow evaded it on the panel and we have several calcs that above Mach 2k which make this claim outlier even if we are going to take it seriously.
> Orochimaru, Kabuto, Karin, Suigetsu and Jügo shouldn't scale to Rel to begin with. If we take it as he's reacting to KB's attack it's outlier as I explained as Jügo can't handle him and when the man is front of him , he still blitzed by Base KB before that and A4 later while the man was casual.
> Considering he watched SM Jiraiya vs Pain he knows their capabilites as they fought to death. We have calc that puts IA Kakashi Mach 2255 (2959 with the calc in the comment that @Kep accepted) and Pain calc that puts him at Mach 2606.
BZ is showing us what Kishi thoughts about his verse's speed. We have several above Mach 2k calcs. This actually makes Zetsu statement outlier.
> Like I said it condractics 4-5 calc. 1 statement that contradicted on panel vs 4 calc+Databook statement. Which is valued more on the wiki? Author's opininon about his verse's speed that condraticed on panel and previous and later calc or calcs we made in this wiki?
Why the databook, LST and 4 calc (considering NL is Mach 1294 and according to Zetsu's statement it can't be evaded so they become outliers) is outlier but not Zetsu's statement?
Reason 3
> Scaling issues. When did we start downgrading verses because of scaling issues? We resolve scaling issues first.
Most if not all mid-tiers and below shouldn't be Rel let alone Rel+ to begin with their movement speed.
Reason 4
Databook entry
The taijutsu Lariat pass down in the Village Hidden in the Clouds for generations!! It smashes the arm in which a huge amount of chakra is loaded onto the base of the opponent's neck while rushing almost at the speed of light!! This power blows flesh and body away with one blow, causes a fatal wound !! In the combination technique Double Lariat, which is released by B and the 4th Raikage, the power is doubled, and without even leaving time for the opponent to activate technique it blows the head off.
Also, KB did the same harm and blowing away to Kisame and Samehada both with Lariat which Kisame fused with Samehada to heal. (Chapter 471)
So: Databook completely true to the manga. Tech activation is for DL not for Lariat. It always called Lariat when Bee uses it alone and when KB and A4 used it together is Dobule Lariat.
I don't know it makes a difference but It's isn't near the speed of light but almost at the speed of light.
Reason 5
> Scaling issue and calc is accepted so usable as a mathematical and context standpoint, if you have a problem with it create another thread as I said. This thread for deciding is it outlier or not.
Madara reacted and Gai bypasses the TSB considering he can't destroy TSB and his body didn't took any harm from it as he attacks where half of TSB staff is protecting.
Conclusion
We should wait until Minato and Naruto calc done and evaluted by CGMs, a separate thread should made for scaling in the meantime and after that we continue to discuss in this thread if their speed going to downgraded or not.
Edited for more clarification, links, grammar and removed @Damage's OP sentences as they were for references for myself. If it's hard to read or respond I add the references again.
Reason 1
> Databook exist for a reason as I stated. Databooks adds to the manga especially when it's true to the manga like with Lariat entry.
I requested the calcs, now waiting time.
Reason 2
Sasuke's reasons for can't be blocked and evaded statement for Kirin not because of it's speed.
He first states how long Kirin LASTS with saying lasts for an instant. He is mentioning the duration of Kirin (Last/lasting have nothing to the with speed of travelling from point A to B).
Then mentions just like Amaterasu how it can't be blocked and avoided. He directly compares Kirin's unblockable and unavoidable parts to the Ameterasu with saying just like the Amaterasu. Zetsu further solidifies this with asking in confusion No One Can Evade The Jutsu... Just Like The Amaterasu? .(they aren't separated sentences). For more explanations why Sasuke's and Zetsu's can't be evaded statements aren't connected
So, he compares it to Amaterasu when he says just like the Amaterasu, it can't be blocked (he doesn't know about Susano'o like @Damage said) and evaded (Kirin's AOE is great like Amaterasu, it destroyed the entire hill and we shown Amaterasu covering the hill as Sasuke said it Also, considering Sasuke also used Amaterasu's heat in this version to make it greater than his previous versions this means his test versions' -we don't know how many time he test it- AOE is smaller than this version)
Like Amaterasu which can't be blocked without protective layer or suitable jutsu (like Tailed Beast shroud, ST, or regen like Orochimaru's Sasuke used it previously which Itachi doesn't have it something like this to Sasuke's knowledge) and has great AOE as I mentioned.
Zetsu is behind Itachi above the hill/mountai > he is still waiting there > Sasuke brings his hands dow in short time > he moves the > somehow evades as he isn't in his previous point . He looking Itachi from above which isn't previous hill anymore as it destroyed. He didn't tank it as he's worried and saying ARGH!! and Gah... such power with a worried expression. Also, WZ isn't that durable to begin with.
Zetsu's claim that natural lightning can't be evaded (which isMach 1294) is either outlier, hyping text and/or Kishi doesn't know his verse's speed. When the 3 character in question somehow evaded it on the panel and we have several calcs that above Mach 2k which make this claim outlier even if we are going to take it seriously.
> Orochimaru, Kabuto, Karin, Suigetsu and Jügo shouldn't scale to Rel to begin with. If we take it as he's reacting to KB's attack it's outlier as I explained as Jügo can't handle him and when the man is front of him , he still blitzed by Base KB before that and A4 later while the man was casual.
> Considering he watched SM Jiraiya vs Pain he knows their capabilites as they fought to death. We have calc that puts IA Kakashi Mach 2255 (2959 with the calc in the comment that @Kep accepted) and Pain calc that puts him at Mach 2606.
BZ is showing us what Kishi thoughts about his verse's speed. We have several above Mach 2k calcs. This actually makes Zetsu statement outlier.
> Like I said it condractics 4-5 calc. 1 statement that contradicted on panel vs 4 calc+Databook statement. Which is valued more on the wiki? Author's opininon about his verse's speed that condraticed on panel and previous and later calc or calcs we made in this wiki?
Why the databook, LST and 4 calc (considering NL is Mach 1294 and according to Zetsu's statement it can't be evaded so they become outliers) is outlier but not Zetsu's statement?
Reason 3
> Scaling issues. When did we start downgrading verses because of scaling issues? We resolve scaling issues first.
Most if not all mid-tiers and below shouldn't be Rel let alone Rel+ to begin with their movement speed.
Reason 4
Databook entry
The taijutsu Lariat pass down in the Village Hidden in the Clouds for generations!! It smashes the arm in which a huge amount of chakra is loaded onto the base of the opponent's neck while rushing almost at the speed of light!! This power blows flesh and body away with one blow, causes a fatal wound !! In the combination technique Double Lariat, which is released by B and the 4th Raikage, the power is doubled, and without even leaving time for the opponent to activate technique it blows the head off.
Also, KB did the same harm and blowing away to Kisame and Samehada both with Lariat which Kisame fused with Samehada to heal. (Chapter 471)
So: Databook completely true to the manga. Tech activation is for DL not for Lariat. It always called Lariat when Bee uses it alone and when KB and A4 used it together is Dobule Lariat.
I don't know it makes a difference but It's isn't near the speed of light but almost at the speed of light.
Reason 5
> Scaling issue and calc is accepted so usable as a mathematical and context standpoint, if you have a problem with it create another thread as I said. This thread for deciding is it outlier or not.
Madara reacted and Gai bypasses the TSB considering he can't destroy TSB and his body didn't took any harm from it as he attacks where half of TSB staff is protecting.
Conclusion
We should wait until Minato and Naruto calc done and evaluted by CGMs, a separate thread should made for scaling in the meantime and after that we continue to discuss in this thread if their speed going to downgraded or not.
Edited for more clarification, links, grammar and removed @Damage's OP sentences as they were for references for myself. If it's hard to read or respond I add the references again.
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@Mindovin; I haven't conceded any of my points yet.
I don't really appreciate having to go through and respond to two walls of texts. Is there anything new in your second post? Because I believe I have addressed everything relevant.
I'll work on a response to the first of your two posts later tonight.
Current count right now:
Agree: The real cal howard & Qawsedf234
Neutral: Shadow
Disagree: Mindovin
I don't really appreciate having to go through and respond to two walls of texts. Is there anything new in your second post? Because I believe I have addressed everything relevant.
I'll work on a response to the first of your two posts later tonight.
Current count right now:
Agree: The real cal howard & Qawsedf234
Neutral: Shadow
Disagree: Mindovin
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In response to your first post:
> No, what you say is headcanon if you won't going prove it with statement and why it's wrong / headcanon. Just saying head-canon isn't proving anything. I'm bringing statements, scans and you say headcanon? Really?
> Then you shouldn't have any problem with proving it and show why Sasuke compares Kirin's can't be blocked and can't be evaded to Amaterasu and Zetsu further solidifies it Sasuke compares that abilities of Kirin to Amaterasu.
Yes, your interpretation is headcanon.
Here are the scans that support what I am saying.
1) Sasuke states that the Kirin is unavoidable and that it lasts for an instant.
2) Here is Black Zetsu explaining why the Kirin is considered unavoidable; it's because of the speed of lightning.
Satisfied?
> We have also databook entry and today I'm going to request calcs for Minato and Naruto using Jvando's or normal values for speed but I need to organize scans first.
The databook entry is what we're talking about in the first place. Without that, then there is just the Rel calc by itself.
> Not ignoring but proving that statement taken out of context, misinterpreted and taken at face value when it contradicted by the same character who made the statement. I'm not ignoring but explaining it.
Statements work completely in context, there is no misinterpretation and there is no reason not to take them at face value.
> No, what you say is headcanon if you won't going prove it with statement and why it's wrong / headcanon. Just saying head-canon isn't proving anything. I'm bringing statements, scans and you say headcanon? Really?
> Then you shouldn't have any problem with proving it and show why Sasuke compares Kirin's can't be blocked and can't be evaded to Amaterasu and Zetsu further solidifies it Sasuke compares that abilities of Kirin to Amaterasu.
Yes, your interpretation is headcanon.
Here are the scans that support what I am saying.
1) Sasuke states that the Kirin is unavoidable and that it lasts for an instant.
2) Here is Black Zetsu explaining why the Kirin is considered unavoidable; it's because of the speed of lightning.
Satisfied?
> We have also databook entry and today I'm going to request calcs for Minato and Naruto using Jvando's or normal values for speed but I need to organize scans first.
The databook entry is what we're talking about in the first place. Without that, then there is just the Rel calc by itself.
> Not ignoring but proving that statement taken out of context, misinterpreted and taken at face value when it contradicted by the same character who made the statement. I'm not ignoring but explaining it.
Statements work completely in context, there is no misinterpretation and there is no reason not to take them at face value.
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I haven't conceded any of my points yet.
> Then answer them, not ignore it.
I don't really appreciate having to go through and respond to two walls of texts. Is there anything new in your second post? Because I believe I have addressed everything relevant.
> You didn't. Especially 4 and 5. You didn't answer any of them and completely ignore it with irrelevant questions or without question considering you said you didn't concede any point.
Reason 2 (for like question about why Zetsu's statement isn't outlier when we calcs above Mach 2k)
Also, everything is new. With more detailed explanatins for Reason 2 and Reason 4.
Yes, your interpretation is headcanon.
Here are the scans that support what I am saying.
1) Sasuke states that the Kirin is unavoidable and that it lasts for an instant.
> He first states Kirin lasts for an instant. LASTS how long. He is mentions the duration of Kirin (Last/lasting have nothing to the with speed of travelling from point A to B). Not its travel speed from point A to B. Then mentions just like Amaterasu how it can't be blocked and avoided. He directly compares Kirin's unblockable and unavoidable parts to the Ametrasu with using just like the Amaterasu.
2) Here is Black Zetsu explaining why the Kirin is considered unavoidable; it's because of the speed of lightning.
> 1) Sasuke explains it lasts and instant and just like Amaterasu how it can't be blocked and avoided. (Chapter 390 last page)
2) WZ asks in confusion no one can evade the jutsu just like the Amaterasu? after Sasuke's explanation (Chapter 391 first page)
3) BZ stars to explain what Sasuke was aiming for with his Katon and what it did ,
4) WZ asks to BZ and what does that have to do with and BZ explains Sasuke's reasoning; doesn't use his own chakra and the attack going to totally different scale than anyone can create using change in chakra nature alone!.
5) Then BZ understands and says that he lured Itachi outside so he could use the heat from Amaterasu.
6) Now here Sasuke explains how; this jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the heavens... In short, I merely direct its power toward you. and from this BZ says just like he though this can't be evaded because it's natural lightning. He become certain because Sasuke's saying of heave as we know and see he actually sky.
So: Their reasoning is different. Sasuke's reasoning for can't be blocked and can't be evaded is for AOE just like Amaterasu and Itachi not having any protection to protect himself to Sasuke's knowledge. Two reasoning aren't connected. Sasuke's reasoning is AOE and Itachi doesn't having any protection from it while Zetsu's reasoning is speed. They aren't support each other.
The databook entry is what we're talking about in the first place. Without that, then there is just the Rel calc by itself.
> And you didn't answer any of my points about it. I explain in great detail why databook entry is correct previously and why your reasoning faulty with great detail and scans from the manga and In my second post I explain in greater detail.
Statements work completely in context, there is no misinterpretation and there is no reason not to take them at face value.
> When you say Sasuke's reasoning for Kirin can't be evaded and can't be blocked is speed it's misinterpretation.
> Then answer them, not ignore it.
I don't really appreciate having to go through and respond to two walls of texts. Is there anything new in your second post? Because I believe I have addressed everything relevant.
> You didn't. Especially 4 and 5. You didn't answer any of them and completely ignore it with irrelevant questions or without question considering you said you didn't concede any point.
Reason 2 (for like question about why Zetsu's statement isn't outlier when we calcs above Mach 2k)
Also, everything is new. With more detailed explanatins for Reason 2 and Reason 4.
Yes, your interpretation is headcanon.
Here are the scans that support what I am saying.
1) Sasuke states that the Kirin is unavoidable and that it lasts for an instant.
> He first states Kirin lasts for an instant. LASTS how long. He is mentions the duration of Kirin (Last/lasting have nothing to the with speed of travelling from point A to B). Not its travel speed from point A to B. Then mentions just like Amaterasu how it can't be blocked and avoided. He directly compares Kirin's unblockable and unavoidable parts to the Ametrasu with using just like the Amaterasu.
2) Here is Black Zetsu explaining why the Kirin is considered unavoidable; it's because of the speed of lightning.
> 1) Sasuke explains it lasts and instant and just like Amaterasu how it can't be blocked and avoided. (Chapter 390 last page)
2) WZ asks in confusion no one can evade the jutsu just like the Amaterasu? after Sasuke's explanation (Chapter 391 first page)
3) BZ stars to explain what Sasuke was aiming for with his Katon and what it did ,
4) WZ asks to BZ and what does that have to do with and BZ explains Sasuke's reasoning; doesn't use his own chakra and the attack going to totally different scale than anyone can create using change in chakra nature alone!.
5) Then BZ understands and says that he lured Itachi outside so he could use the heat from Amaterasu.
6) Now here Sasuke explains how; this jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the heavens... In short, I merely direct its power toward you. and from this BZ says just like he though this can't be evaded because it's natural lightning. He become certain because Sasuke's saying of heave as we know and see he actually sky.
So: Their reasoning is different. Sasuke's reasoning for can't be blocked and can't be evaded is for AOE just like Amaterasu and Itachi not having any protection to protect himself to Sasuke's knowledge. Two reasoning aren't connected. Sasuke's reasoning is AOE and Itachi doesn't having any protection from it while Zetsu's reasoning is speed. They aren't support each other.
The databook entry is what we're talking about in the first place. Without that, then there is just the Rel calc by itself.
> And you didn't answer any of my points about it. I explain in great detail why databook entry is correct previously and why your reasoning faulty with great detail and scans from the manga and In my second post I explain in greater detail.
Statements work completely in context, there is no misinterpretation and there is no reason not to take them at face value.
> When you say Sasuke's reasoning for Kirin can't be evaded and can't be blocked is speed it's misinterpretation.
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> Then answer them, not ignore it.
> You didn't. Especially 4 and 5. You didn't answer any of them and completely ignore it with irrelevant questions or without question considering you said you didn't concede any point.
When you throw me a wall of text that requires a dozen different responses to various points, I'm going to end up missing some.
> Reason 2 (for like question about why Zetsu's statement isn't outlier when we calcs above Mach 2k)
Why would it be an outlier? The currently accepted calc for Kirin's speed is faster than the other calcs.
> So: Their reasoning is different. Sasuke's reasoning for can't be blocked and can't be evaded is for AOE just like Amaterasu and Itachi not having any protection to protect himself to Sasuke's knowledge. Two reasoning aren't connected. Sasuke's reasoning is AOE and Itachi doesn't having any protection from it while Zetsu's reasoning is speed. They aren't support each other.
Sasuke doesn't mention AOE anywhere in his speech. The jutsu being of a different scale doesn't necessarily mean that's what Sasuke meant by it being unavoidable. That could be referring to when he said it was unblockable.
Black Zetsu specifically refers to lightning speed as I proved in the page I linked.
When Sasuke is referring to it "lasting an instant" the travel speed can be included in that. There is no reason to think it isn't.
> And you didn't answer any of my points about it. I explain in great detail why databook entry is correct previously and why your reasoning faulty with great detail and scans from the manga and In my second post I explain in greater detail.
I don't agree you with your explanation and I've already explained why. My reasoning still holds up.
> When you say Sasuke's reasoning for Kirin can't be evaded and can't be blocked is speed it's misinterpretation.
It is the correct interpreation.
> You didn't. Especially 4 and 5. You didn't answer any of them and completely ignore it with irrelevant questions or without question considering you said you didn't concede any point.
When you throw me a wall of text that requires a dozen different responses to various points, I'm going to end up missing some.
> Reason 2 (for like question about why Zetsu's statement isn't outlier when we calcs above Mach 2k)
Why would it be an outlier? The currently accepted calc for Kirin's speed is faster than the other calcs.
> So: Their reasoning is different. Sasuke's reasoning for can't be blocked and can't be evaded is for AOE just like Amaterasu and Itachi not having any protection to protect himself to Sasuke's knowledge. Two reasoning aren't connected. Sasuke's reasoning is AOE and Itachi doesn't having any protection from it while Zetsu's reasoning is speed. They aren't support each other.
Sasuke doesn't mention AOE anywhere in his speech. The jutsu being of a different scale doesn't necessarily mean that's what Sasuke meant by it being unavoidable. That could be referring to when he said it was unblockable.
Black Zetsu specifically refers to lightning speed as I proved in the page I linked.
When Sasuke is referring to it "lasting an instant" the travel speed can be included in that. There is no reason to think it isn't.
> And you didn't answer any of my points about it. I explain in great detail why databook entry is correct previously and why your reasoning faulty with great detail and scans from the manga and In my second post I explain in greater detail.
I don't agree you with your explanation and I've already explained why. My reasoning still holds up.
> When you say Sasuke's reasoning for Kirin can't be evaded and can't be blocked is speed it's misinterpretation.
It is the correct interpreation.
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Im still in agreement with the revision btw
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When you throw me a wall of text that requires a dozen different responses to various points, I'm going to end up missing some.
> This isn't a valid reason. Take your time and reply to them instead of ignoring or asking irrelevant questions. Then how I can do that? You did ignore some of my points in my first and second answer too. No one forcing you to answer in a few hours.
Do you even know what a wall of text means?
Why would it be an outlier? The currently accepted calc for Kirin's speed is faster than the other calcs.
> Because Zetsu didn't calc it, or said anything close to that numbers. You said it's natural lightning and NL's accepted speed is Mach 1294 on the site or what speed you get with Zetsu's numbers. Also that Kirin calc is lowball iirc.
Kakashi's can be Mach 2959 too as Kep accepted that in the same blog, it's just written that way I don't know.
Zetsu's can't be reacted because of its speed statement and it's natural lightning like you said makes Kakashi, Pain and Sasuke's Kirin speed become outliers.
Considering it's 1 statement vs 4 calc+Databook, it seems Zetsu's statement is outlier.
That was not just for you but everyone who reads this thread and myself as some of my reasoning and perspective changed. I won't answer other points as they in the previous reply with last answer why Zetsu's statement is outlier (so called wall of text one) so answer that.
> This isn't a valid reason. Take your time and reply to them instead of ignoring or asking irrelevant questions. Then how I can do that? You did ignore some of my points in my first and second answer too. No one forcing you to answer in a few hours.
Do you even know what a wall of text means?
Why would it be an outlier? The currently accepted calc for Kirin's speed is faster than the other calcs.
> Because Zetsu didn't calc it, or said anything close to that numbers. You said it's natural lightning and NL's accepted speed is Mach 1294 on the site or what speed you get with Zetsu's numbers. Also that Kirin calc is lowball iirc.
Kakashi's can be Mach 2959 too as Kep accepted that in the same blog, it's just written that way I don't know.
Zetsu's can't be reacted because of its speed statement and it's natural lightning like you said makes Kakashi, Pain and Sasuke's Kirin speed become outliers.
Considering it's 1 statement vs 4 calc+Databook, it seems Zetsu's statement is outlier.
That was not just for you but everyone who reads this thread and myself as some of my reasoning and perspective changed. I won't answer other points as they in the previous reply with last answer why Zetsu's statement is outlier (so called wall of text one) so answer that.
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> Because Zetsu didn't calc it, or said anything close to that numbers. You said it's natural lightning and NL's accepted speed is Mach 1294 on the site or what speed you get with Zetsu's numbers. Also that Kirin calc is lowball iirc.
Zetsu provided numbers, and I don't think the current calc for Kirin is lowballed from what I remember.
> Zetsu's can't be reacted because of its speed statement and it's natural lightning like you said makes Kakashi, Pain and Sasuke's Kirin speed become outliers.
Pain's speed calc has been recalled to be around Mach 250 IIRC.
> Considering it's 1 statement vs 4 calc+Databook, it seems Zetsu's statement is outlier.
Other way around, it's 2 statements + 4 calcs vs. 1 databook & 1 calc.
Current Vote Count:
Agree: Weekly, Cal, Qaws, Myself
Neutral: Shadow
Disagree: Mindovin
Zetsu provided numbers, and I don't think the current calc for Kirin is lowballed from what I remember.
> Zetsu's can't be reacted because of its speed statement and it's natural lightning like you said makes Kakashi, Pain and Sasuke's Kirin speed become outliers.
Pain's speed calc has been recalled to be around Mach 250 IIRC.
> Considering it's 1 statement vs 4 calc+Databook, it seems Zetsu's statement is outlier.
Other way around, it's 2 statements + 4 calcs vs. 1 databook & 1 calc.
Current Vote Count:
Agree: Weekly, Cal, Qaws, Myself
Neutral: Shadow
Disagree: Mindovin
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Zetsu gives 1/1000 of a second and says lightning is faster than sound. There is no number.
Pain's speed calc has been recalled to be around Mach 250 IIRC.
> Currently we are using Mach 2.606 from what I see.
Other way around, it's 2 statements + 4 calcs vs. 1 databook & 1 calc.
> One is Zetsu other one I'm assuming is Sasuke. But what 4 calcs? Which 1 calc?
1/1000 = 0.001 seconds is Supersonic+ perception?
Could you add below link to the OP as Mindovin's reply because others don't reflect my complete opinion and too much missing on them anymore and I don't think anyone is interested about going through all of this too.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3533330#91
Pain's speed calc has been recalled to be around Mach 250 IIRC.
> Currently we are using Mach 2.606 from what I see.
Other way around, it's 2 statements + 4 calcs vs. 1 databook & 1 calc.
> One is Zetsu other one I'm assuming is Sasuke. But what 4 calcs? Which 1 calc?
1/1000 = 0.001 seconds is Supersonic+ perception?
Could you add below link to the OP as Mindovin's reply because others don't reflect my complete opinion and too much missing on them anymore and I don't think anyone is interested about going through all of this too.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3533330#91
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> Zetsu gives 1/1000 of a second and says lightning is faster than sound. There is no number.
That is used to calc the speed. I've been on this topic arguing against it myself yet most people accept it.
> Currently we are using Mach 2.606 from what I see.
We are, the new calc just hasn't been applied yet.
> But what 4 calcs? Which 1 calc?
The other Shippuden calcs that are MHS+ and below.
Most calcs support a speed scaling much less than Relativistic.
> Could you add below link to the OP as Mindovin's reply
Will do soon.
That is used to calc the speed. I've been on this topic arguing against it myself yet most people accept it.
> Currently we are using Mach 2.606 from what I see.
We are, the new calc just hasn't been applied yet.
> But what 4 calcs? Which 1 calc?
The other Shippuden calcs that are MHS+ and below.
Most calcs support a speed scaling much less than Relativistic.
> Could you add below link to the OP as Mindovin's reply
Will do soon.
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That is used to calc the speed. I've been on this topic arguing against it myself yet most people accept it.
> We added 1000m to that though otherwise it can't be used for speed of Kirin.
Could you anwer the question about: Is 0.001 seconds = Supersonic+ perception?
Most calcs support a speed scaling much less than Relativistic.
> I'm not talking about Rel calcs or feats at all but MHS+ calcs.
Will do soon.
> Thanks.
> We added 1000m to that though otherwise it can't be used for speed of Kirin.
Could you anwer the question about: Is 0.001 seconds = Supersonic+ perception?
Most calcs support a speed scaling much less than Relativistic.
> I'm not talking about Rel calcs or feats at all but MHS+ calcs.
Will do soon.
> Thanks.
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> Could you anwer the question about: Is 0.001 seconds = Supersonic+ perception?
If the only that was being looked at was Itachi's perception speed, yeah.
If the only that was being looked at was Itachi's perception speed, yeah.
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If the lightning was only travelling a single meter...Mindovin said:
@Celestial Judge; when you start off by saying that the opposition is arguing out of spite, you're not making a good first impression.
Leave your argument on my message wall if you want, or Mindovin's.
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After reading both sides, I'm more neutral. But might change my mind later.
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Okay, thank you for responding. I'll update the OP.
We currently stand at 4 members of staff in favour of the revisions, 2 neutral and 1 against.
I think if this is unchanged in 24 hours, then it we should proceed with the revisions.
We currently stand at 4 members of staff in favour of the revisions, 2 neutral and 1 against.
I think if this is unchanged in 24 hours, then it we should proceed with the revisions.
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@DarkDragonMedeus; characters who have dodged Kirin?
I think AstralKing7 needs some fact-checking there because Kirin has been used once canonically in the series and nobody dodged it.
It was used once non-canonically that I can remember against Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto who failed to react to it, so that shouldn't be taken into account.
If anything that pages supports my point even more.
Could you check with AstralKing7 where Black Zetsu states that Kakashi or base Minato could have dodged Kirin through speed alone?
I think AstralKing7 needs some fact-checking there because Kirin has been used once canonically in the series and nobody dodged it.
It was used once non-canonically that I can remember against Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto who failed to react to it, so that shouldn't be taken into account.
If anything that pages supports my point even more.
Could you check with AstralKing7 where Black Zetsu states that Kakashi or base Minato could have dodged Kirin through speed alone?
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Well after creeping through some walls it's a statement from chapter 659, but correct me if I'm missing something, but all Black Zetsu says is that he's to slow to get the Rinnegan before being murdered by Minato and Kakashi rather than him saying Minato > lightning.
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I was told they're still looking for scans, but Minato has legit dodged Kirin based on the information and Obito was implied to be even faster than that.
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Their arguments are based on incorrect information, so until they can produce a scan of Minato dodging Kirin is just sounds like the opposition is really reaching for excuses to find problems with this.
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I mean, here's the largest issue here. Kirin is a new jutsu. It was created after Minato was dead for 15 years and the only time it was used again (in filler mind you) was after he was dead again. There's no way he could've dodged Kirin when the attack did not exist when he was alive and was never used when he was resurrected.
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So to summarize why the counter arguments referenced earlier by DDM are wrong;
1) Minato has not dodged Kirin, and in fact no character has.
2) Sasuke did not state Kirin as fast as Amaterasu.
2.5) Even if he did have, that would still put Amaterasu at lightning speed. Meaning it would require the Raikage (one of the fastest Shinobi alive) three speed-amps in order to narrowly dodge something that is lightning speed. This greatly contradicts the notion that the Raikage is casually Relativistic.
3) Black Zetsu having knowledge of Minato and Kakashi does not invalidate his earlier statements regarding Kirin.
Hopefully that point regarding the Kirin statement is now settled.
1) Minato has not dodged Kirin, and in fact no character has.
2) Sasuke did not state Kirin as fast as Amaterasu.
2.5) Even if he did have, that would still put Amaterasu at lightning speed. Meaning it would require the Raikage (one of the fastest Shinobi alive) three speed-amps in order to narrowly dodge something that is lightning speed. This greatly contradicts the notion that the Raikage is casually Relativistic.
3) Black Zetsu having knowledge of Minato and Kakashi does not invalidate his earlier statements regarding Kirin.
Hopefully that point regarding the Kirin statement is now settled.
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I suppose I should stop being silent on this thread yes, I have been reading this for the amount of time it has lasted.
I can agree with dismissing the Lariat's speed. I'm neutral about the Relativistic calc tho. I'm unsure about the arguments.
I can agree with dismissing the Lariat's speed. I'm neutral about the Relativistic calc tho. I'm unsure about the arguments.
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Thank you for responding.
Main argument is that the Relativistic calc is a large inconsistency. Without the Lariat feats, it is a calc that has gives a character Mach 231197 combat speed when everyone else that he fights and scales to is in the area of MHS+.
It is the only feat that high, with the next highest calcs in the canon material being Mach 1914, Mach 2225, Mach 2915 and Mach 5060. It's basically an outlier - and a sketchy feat overall besides that.
And to add to the inconsistency, the character fails to react to a character who is much slower than light despite supposedly reacting to and blocking a "lightspeed" attack.
Main argument is that the Relativistic calc is a large inconsistency. Without the Lariat feats, it is a calc that has gives a character Mach 231197 combat speed when everyone else that he fights and scales to is in the area of MHS+.
It is the only feat that high, with the next highest calcs in the canon material being Mach 1914, Mach 2225, Mach 2915 and Mach 5060. It's basically an outlier - and a sketchy feat overall besides that.
And to add to the inconsistency, the character fails to react to a character who is much slower than light despite supposedly reacting to and blocking a "lightspeed" attack.
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Isn't that a Madara's feat? One of the God Tiers of the verse? I only remember Madara basically no-diffing the rest of the cast and besting the strongest characters, so I'm not sure if it's that big of an inconsistency.
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@The Calaca; Madara at that point is definitely not one of the God Tiers of the verse.
That label belongs to characters like the Otsutsuki's and the 10-Tails' Jinchuriki.
That label belongs to characters like the Otsutsuki's and the 10-Tails' Jinchuriki.
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You're right. If it's not Juubi Madara or something like that it seems like an outlier. Thought it was.
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Okay. I'll update the OP. Thanks again for responding to the thread.
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