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Okay, I'll get on it soon.
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Issues with Speed [Naruto] (STAFF ONLY)
- Thread starter Damage3245
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- #122
@KLOL506; this is a staff only thread.
And the character who the feat is for is not a God Tier.
And the character who the feat is for is not a God Tier.
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I definitely agree with not using Lariat's speed. I'm neutral on the Madara calc.
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The Lariat feat never sat right with me in the first place, so yeah I'm in agreement of not using it.
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What's the Mada radda calc?
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- #126
@Cal; the Madara calc is this one which is linked in the OP.
One of the original arguments for accepting it was that A (the Raikage) has Relativistic+ reactions anyway from the databook statement, so him being able to attack while being transported at lightspeed became slightly easier to believe.
With that statement gone however, there isn't a good reason to believe the feat (and therefore the calc) are as legit as they were considered to be.
One of the original arguments for accepting it was that A (the Raikage) has Relativistic+ reactions anyway from the databook statement, so him being able to attack while being transported at lightspeed became slightly easier to believe.
With that statement gone however, there isn't a good reason to believe the feat (and therefore the calc) are as legit as they were considered to be.
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I mean, isn't it considered illegitimate off the bat? I've yet to see another teleportation be scaled to reaction speed.
In fact, the technique being lightspeed in the first place. Isn't that also databook?
In fact, the technique being lightspeed in the first place. Isn't that also databook?
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- #128
No, Mabui's Ethereal Transmission Jutsu which transported A and Tsunade is stated to be lightspeed in the manga itself.
The issue is them supposedly launching attacks while being moved at lightspeed and Madara supposedly reacting to them, which is now a majorly inconsistent feat.
The issue is them supposedly launching attacks while being moved at lightspeed and Madara supposedly reacting to them, which is now a majorly inconsistent feat.
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I mean, the technique may be lightspeed but Tsunade and co aren't. If they're launching energy attacks instead of physical attacks, they'll decelerate to their normal speed. If they're throwing punches, I got nothing.
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He did read the threads so I don't understand his answer^
I'm going to address the Madara misconception later today with scans
I'm going to address the Madara misconception later today with scans
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Okay so what's the arguments for disagreeing with Lariet? Besides the fact that anyone thinks it's an outlier which is based on Madara rel+ feat being inconsistent.
If there is any reason for any staff member to disagree with Lariet please bring it up now instead of saying you had problems with it. Are these problems coming from the statement supposedly being hype text??? Like Mindovin said we had 3 threads covering this and debunking the claim. The argument was reused and debunked.
So can someone actually bring a strong argument for Lariet to not be used.
Next there is a huge misconception with Madara vs other fodder ninja. There is no ninja who actually scales to Edo Madara in speed besidesBM Naruto who actually blitzed Madara. What makes the scaling chain even more consistent? KCM Naruto literally dodges rel+ Ay point blank. KCM Naruto is literally said to have surpassed his parents as well as being faster than full power Ay.
Gaara using a sneak attack against EMS Madara and still being to slow to actually catch him
Madara blitzing hundreds of fodder Shinobi
Madara VS Ay in speed. Madara point blank was literally able to perceive and think before Ay reaches him
Madara here having enough time to actually put up a guard in those few seconds point blank after thinking and perceiving Ay before he connects.
Madara attacking all of the Kage at the same time before they could react
BSeal Tsuande unable to react to Madara
Madara absorbing Jinto while off guard and having enough time to raise his hands
Finally Madara catching Ay in his hands before he could even react and putting him in genjutsu.
So can I ask...how in the world does anyone scale to Madara in speed besides BM Naruto? So there are no MHS+ ninjas who scale to Madara at all. Profiles even prove that. Anyone who fought Madara in the first place is rel+ from a whole different feat which has nothing at all to do with Madara. There is really misconceptions being thrown around on this thread which are being believed.
Also what's even better. The Kage don't even scale to Madara in the first place. They scale to rel from another feat so what's actually being proposed is jsut a lie. The profiles don't even reflect them scaling to Edo Madara in speed. Raikage with his weight lifted by Onoki and Tsuande with her Seal are the only forms that scale to him somewhat from getting a boost that doesn't scale to their normal statistics.
Damage's main problem had come from the reasoning on the profiles which can be easily fixed. Next the feats being outliers got tired in with the profiles reasoning being wrong.
So when we get back to square one after all of the outlier arguments and hype text is debunked the only problem is reasoning. The reasoning can easily be fixed for the profiles.
If there is any reason for any staff member to disagree with Lariet please bring it up now instead of saying you had problems with it. Are these problems coming from the statement supposedly being hype text??? Like Mindovin said we had 3 threads covering this and debunking the claim. The argument was reused and debunked.
So can someone actually bring a strong argument for Lariet to not be used.
Next there is a huge misconception with Madara vs other fodder ninja. There is no ninja who actually scales to Edo Madara in speed besidesBM Naruto who actually blitzed Madara. What makes the scaling chain even more consistent? KCM Naruto literally dodges rel+ Ay point blank. KCM Naruto is literally said to have surpassed his parents as well as being faster than full power Ay.
Gaara using a sneak attack against EMS Madara and still being to slow to actually catch him
Madara blitzing hundreds of fodder Shinobi
Madara VS Ay in speed. Madara point blank was literally able to perceive and think before Ay reaches him
Madara here having enough time to actually put up a guard in those few seconds point blank after thinking and perceiving Ay before he connects.
Madara attacking all of the Kage at the same time before they could react
BSeal Tsuande unable to react to Madara
Madara absorbing Jinto while off guard and having enough time to raise his hands
Finally Madara catching Ay in his hands before he could even react and putting him in genjutsu.
So can I ask...how in the world does anyone scale to Madara in speed besides BM Naruto? So there are no MHS+ ninjas who scale to Madara at all. Profiles even prove that. Anyone who fought Madara in the first place is rel+ from a whole different feat which has nothing at all to do with Madara. There is really misconceptions being thrown around on this thread which are being believed.
Also what's even better. The Kage don't even scale to Madara in the first place. They scale to rel from another feat so what's actually being proposed is jsut a lie. The profiles don't even reflect them scaling to Edo Madara in speed. Raikage with his weight lifted by Onoki and Tsuande with her Seal are the only forms that scale to him somewhat from getting a boost that doesn't scale to their normal statistics.
Damage's main problem had come from the reasoning on the profiles which can be easily fixed. Next the feats being outliers got tired in with the profiles reasoning being wrong.
So when we get back to square one after all of the outlier arguments and hype text is debunked the only problem is reasoning. The reasoning can easily be fixed for the profiles.
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- #133
@AstralKing7; it would be much better if you linked to the images instead of spamming them in a long column.
The main argument against Lariat is not it being "hype text" but being inconsistent with the verse's speed. It coming from a databook without any additional support from the manga is just extra.
The Madara calc becomes an outlier, and an inconsistency due to one of the main supporting arguments for its legitimacy being lost (the fact that the Raikage & Tsunade supposedly scaled to Relativistic speeds which is what allowed them to perform attacks despite being moved at lightspeed).
The main argument against Lariat is not it being "hype text" but being inconsistent with the verse's speed. It coming from a databook without any additional support from the manga is just extra.
The Madara calc becomes an outlier, and an inconsistency due to one of the main supporting arguments for its legitimacy being lost (the fact that the Raikage & Tsunade supposedly scaled to Relativistic speeds which is what allowed them to perform attacks despite being moved at lightspeed).
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No, I'm saying it's hype text. The databooks do that often.
I'm also like...highly skeptical of the Madara calc because every time Naruto's speed gets dropped, someone somewhere makes another calc to try to rejustify the tiering. So you can see why I'm doubtful of the Madara calc.
I'm also like...highly skeptical of the Madara calc because every time Naruto's speed gets dropped, someone somewhere makes another calc to try to rejustify the tiering. So you can see why I'm doubtful of the Madara calc.
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I was asked on my wall to also mentioned this calculatio which was accepted. And Guy reacted to this when he was on a wheel chair, which would inherently scale to prime Guy.
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- #136
@DDM, we don't currently backscale calcs from the Boruto anime to the Naruto manga.
But I'm not sure that would affect anything anyway seeing as the result appears to be MHS+ at best? And Guy in a wheelchair shows no sign of being as fast as Mirai on that calc.
But I'm not sure that would affect anything anyway seeing as the result appears to be MHS+ at best? And Guy in a wheelchair shows no sign of being as fast as Mirai on that calc.
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Ah, I didn't know that feat came from the Anime; nvm then.
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I asked DDM for permission to speak here.
For one, the Boruto Anime is completely canon so events that occur to that can be calculated and scaled appropriately.
Two, since when do we not backscale? Boruto is literally just a continuation of Naruto and they (Boruto and Sasuke) even go back in time to the Naruto time period. It should be fine to backscale weaker characters to their prime and work from there since logically, those characters in their prime would be at least as strong as their weaker points.
Finally, in regards to Guy, the 5x Gate multiplier would apply to his prime. He was able to perceive the events around Mirai so multiplying the current value by 5x would give Sub-Rel speeds. Of course, since we now have a statement that Ninja's travel at horse speeds, I will have to adjust the calc accordingly.
For one, the Boruto Anime is completely canon so events that occur to that can be calculated and scaled appropriately.
Two, since when do we not backscale? Boruto is literally just a continuation of Naruto and they (Boruto and Sasuke) even go back in time to the Naruto time period. It should be fine to backscale weaker characters to their prime and work from there since logically, those characters in their prime would be at least as strong as their weaker points.
Finally, in regards to Guy, the 5x Gate multiplier would apply to his prime. He was able to perceive the events around Mirai so multiplying the current value by 5x would give Sub-Rel speeds. Of course, since we now have a statement that Ninja's travel at horse speeds, I will have to adjust the calc accordingly.
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Let me type that out to make it easier for everyone to see:
| Shinobi did use lightning trains and steam trains or blimps when the situation called for their necessity, but they were simply faster at traveling by foot than other, normal people. Shinobi could go down a trackless path, and make a journey of a thousand miles without a single break. For them, their own two legs were the most reliable method of transport. And there was all the more reason to go on foot when traveling in the desert, where no reliable roads were guaranteed. Shinobi were more tenacious than camels, faster than horses, and they flew across the seas of sand with ease. | ||
~ Gaara Hiden, Chapter 2 |
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We do back scale to the manga. We don't back scale certain feats which are for specific things. That was answered on a thread weeks ago.
I also answered the Lariet being inconsistent and that's a literal flaw since it being inconsistent is based on the fact that Madara is not rel when he is.
The arguments are based on each other which is horrible when supporters can bring scans disproving the inconsistency.
So after disproving the inconsistency, hype text is the last argument to tackle which was answered with 3 threads ago.
So all in all this stuff has been brought up again and again with the only problem is literally the reasoning.
I also answered the Lariet being inconsistent and that's a literal flaw since it being inconsistent is based on the fact that Madara is not rel when he is.
The arguments are based on each other which is horrible when supporters can bring scans disproving the inconsistency.
So after disproving the inconsistency, hype text is the last argument to tackle which was answered with 3 threads ago.
So all in all this stuff has been brought up again and again with the only problem is literally the reasoning.
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- #142
@AstralKing7, for what reason should we backscale this Mirai feat?
The only reason Madara is accepted to be Rel in the fist place is because the Lariat statement supported his calc.
@Jvando, there was never a CRT to accept using the Mirai calc in the first place and I have some issues with it. I'll address that later. For now though it has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread.
The only reason Madara is accepted to be Rel in the fist place is because the Lariat statement supported his calc.
@Jvando, there was never a CRT to accept using the Mirai calc in the first place and I have some issues with it. I'll address that later. For now though it has nothing to do with the purpose of this thread.
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We wouldn't back scale the feat from Mirai. The feat obviously scales to might guy. The same might guy who is stronger than jonins. Mind u mirai is a Chunin. The scaling comes from Might guy scaling to his prime self.
There is not any problem with Madara being rel in the first place cause no one scales to him. You made it up that ninjas scale to him to say it was an inconsistency when it's not. Madara not scaling to fodders is proof it's consistent since he was faster than everyone.
Besides the other light speed feats that just so happened to pop up around the war arc which proves Kishimoto was incorporating Light speed in the series.
There is not any problem with Madara being rel in the first place cause no one scales to him. You made it up that ninjas scale to him to say it was an inconsistency when it's not. Madara not scaling to fodders is proof it's consistent since he was faster than everyone.
Besides the other light speed feats that just so happened to pop up around the war arc which proves Kishimoto was incorporating Light speed in the series.
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- #144
Nobody was talking about Madara scaling to fodder Shinobi, I think everyone here knows he's faster than them.
Might Guy doesn't scale to Mirai's calc. You don't need to be as fast as something to perceive it.
Might Guy doesn't scale to Mirai's calc. You don't need to be as fast as something to perceive it.
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This entire thread is an issues with speed thread so bringing up other speed feats in Naruto should be fair game. I also wouldn't make a complete other thread to talk about Mirai's feat since this already exists. Might as well deal with all the speed issues that we have at once and if you have a problem with the Mirai calc, that's fair and we can address it.
Second, any high level Jonin And above would logically scale above Mirai's feat since she's a chunin. Obviously, rank doesn't necessarily equate to their level of skill as Naruto is technically still a Genin but is one of the strongest in the series, but nothing suggests Mirai is exceptionally superior to Jonin and the like. As such, scaling Elite Jonin and above from that feat should be fine.
Second, any high level Jonin And above would logically scale above Mirai's feat since she's a chunin. Obviously, rank doesn't necessarily equate to their level of skill as Naruto is technically still a Genin but is one of the strongest in the series, but nothing suggests Mirai is exceptionally superior to Jonin and the like. As such, scaling Elite Jonin and above from that feat should be fine.
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Damage....are u forgetting your own arguments?
@Staff Members I want all staff members on this thread to take a look at what damage said himself. Madara has been fighting Mach 5000, Mach 1000 and 2000 shinobi. The only ninjas who scale to that are the fodders. This is how I knew there were misconceptions going around. The fodders are the ones who performed those feats besides Sasuke.
The Kage themselves scale to rel from another feat which has nothing to do with Madara. Even if damage tries to say he meant the Kage, why would you just through in MHS+ characters scaling to Madara when its not true.
Damage literally said Madara fights ninjas in the range of MHS+. As seen above my scan debunks anyone scaling to him in the first place. Damage u did indeed mean fodder ninja because the Kage first of all were the only ones he fought after that and they scale to Rel anyway
Even if damage meant the Kage why would he throw in MHS+?? This makes things even more sketch sense he said himself he doesn't mean the fodder ninja Madara stomped. Isn't it weird to say mhs+, even tho you meant the Kage who aren't MHS+ at all??
@Damage Might Guy> Jonin> Mirai.
@Staff Members I want all staff members on this thread to take a look at what damage said himself. Madara has been fighting Mach 5000, Mach 1000 and 2000 shinobi. The only ninjas who scale to that are the fodders. This is how I knew there were misconceptions going around. The fodders are the ones who performed those feats besides Sasuke.
The Kage themselves scale to rel from another feat which has nothing to do with Madara. Even if damage tries to say he meant the Kage, why would you just through in MHS+ characters scaling to Madara when its not true.
Damage literally said Madara fights ninjas in the range of MHS+. As seen above my scan debunks anyone scaling to him in the first place. Damage u did indeed mean fodder ninja because the Kage first of all were the only ones he fought after that and they scale to Rel anyway
Even if damage meant the Kage why would he throw in MHS+?? This makes things even more sketch sense he said himself he doesn't mean the fodder ninja Madara stomped. Isn't it weird to say mhs+, even tho you meant the Kage who aren't MHS+ at all??
@Damage Might Guy> Jonin> Mirai.
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- #147
@AstralKing7; do you seriously consider the Kage to be fodder Shinobi?
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- #148
Anyway - this thread has ran its course. I've spoken with Antvasima we are clear to proceed with the revisions as that is what the large majority of votes has gone towards.
The Lariat statement and the Relativistic calc for Madara are no longer applicable for scaling.
I'll be drafting up new ratings to propose for the characters, and will hopefully be able to post them tonight or tomorrow
@Jvando; I'll explain my issues with the current Miria calc later tonight and show an alternative way that it could be improved (in my opinion).
The Lariat statement and the Relativistic calc for Madara are no longer applicable for scaling.
I'll be drafting up new ratings to propose for the characters, and will hopefully be able to post them tonight or tomorrow
@Jvando; I'll explain my issues with the current Miria calc later tonight and show an alternative way that it could be improved (in my opinion).
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Umm I'm pretty sure the rel calc for Madara was neutral. Also the fact that no other staff member has even commented after reading my and Jvando arguments.
Your arguments are faulty and are agreed with blindly.
Your arguments are faulty and are agreed with blindly.
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@AstralKing7; only DDM and Shadow have stuck to being neutral regarding the Madara calc.
Everyone else has stated they Agree fully with the revisions.
Everyone else has stated they Agree fully with the revisions.
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Okay..lol I jsut counted
Prom is neutral. Tata disagreed. DDM neutral. Mindovin disagrees and agrees with changing the reasoning. Shadow neutral.
Peter only agrees with Lariet. Calc agreed without context to the misconception that ninja scaled to Madara. What's worst the other staff members literally haven't even come back to this thread. Calc agrees with every Naruto speed downgrade for some reason
This is what I was talking about; staff members just appeared and voted without even knowing the context of things
@Ant this should be fixed tbh
So iirc it's more people who aren't really sure about this revision
You know what...did u actually tell Ant that people agreed with this revision. Cause they don't
Prom is neutral. Tata disagreed. DDM neutral. Mindovin disagrees and agrees with changing the reasoning. Shadow neutral.
Peter only agrees with Lariet. Calc agreed without context to the misconception that ninja scaled to Madara. What's worst the other staff members literally haven't even come back to this thread. Calc agrees with every Naruto speed downgrade for some reason
This is what I was talking about; staff members just appeared and voted without even knowing the context of things
@Ant this should be fixed tbh
So iirc it's more people who aren't really sure about this revision
You know what...did u actually tell Ant that people agreed with this revision. Cause they don't
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- #153
@AstralKing7; Prom changed her vote to Agree on a message wall thread. As did Peter/Quicksilver.
Tata only disagreed in the first vote and hasn't commented in the new vote.
The vote count in the OP is correct.
@Antvasima; I already asked staff members to comment their vote here again for the 2nd vote which has achieved a total majority. As far as I can tell, the matter appears to be settled.
Tata only disagreed in the first vote and hasn't commented in the new vote.
The vote count in the OP is correct.
@Antvasima; I already asked staff members to comment their vote here again for the 2nd vote which has achieved a total majority. As far as I can tell, the matter appears to be settled.
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As u can see. Can we see everything? Can u please have the arguments addressed here. His latest message was in regards to Lariet which we can see from yesterday
Everyone else is still neutral.
You don't supposed to count yourself. Cal, Calca(needs more context) Prom(I feel that prom should read my arguments and Jvando since we commented later),
The neutral party is still in favor. The misconceptions addressed on this thread hasn't been shown to anyone else since you commented on their wall. You should have told them to come back to this thresd
Lina completely vanished from this thread.
Everyone else is still neutral.
You don't supposed to count yourself. Cal, Calca(needs more context) Prom(I feel that prom should read my arguments and Jvando since we commented later),
The neutral party is still in favor. The misconceptions addressed on this thread hasn't been shown to anyone else since you commented on their wall. You should have told them to come back to this thresd
Lina completely vanished from this thread.
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- #155
AstralKing7; there are seven staff members in favour of the revisions (including myself), and one against, with only two being explicitly neutral.
That is a majority in favour of one outcome here, and I'm not going to argue with you about that.
That is a majority in favour of one outcome here, and I'm not going to argue with you about that.
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Pretty much everyone is in favor of not using the Lariat statement, but it's Madara's calculation and the calculation Jvando brought up are more or less what I'm neutral on.
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- #158
@DDM; I'll address the new calc Jvando brought up in detail later tonight when I have time.
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- #160
@Mindovin, you were arguing a lot against removing the statement but you didn't even know why I wanted it removed? If I had to pick one reason out of those options you've mentioned it would be that it isn't reliable.
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