Issues with Speed [Naruto] (STAFF ONLY)

This thread is concerning the speed ratings in Naruto; the Relativistic and Relativistic+ ratings coming entirely from two sources.

1) The databook statement putting the Raikage and Killer B's Lariat at "near the speed of light."

2) Madara's calc of him reacting to a "lightspeed attack".

I believe that there are enough reasons to disregard these for scaling the characters.

Please note that this thread is staff-only in order to avoid the problems on the previous thread.

Reason 1 - Lack of Manga Support

• In the original manga there is no implication (or any supporting feats) that the characters possess anything close to Relativistic speed or reactions on that level with the exception of Madara's calc.
• In fact there are a couple of distinct anti-feats that would go against it as I'll mention below:

Reason 2 - Sasuke and Black Zetsu's Statements

• In chapter 390 of the manga, Sasuke states that the Kirin is impossible to evade. In chapter 391 the reason for this is made clear; Black Zetsu states that it is due to how fast the lightning is.
• What is easy to conclude from this is simple; to the best of Sasuke's and Black Zetsu's knowledge it is typically impossible for shinobi to evade an attack as fast as Kirin. Kirin is explicitly natural lightning.
• Sasuke at this time should have good knowledge on the speed of multiple characters including Orochimaru, Kabuto, Karin, Suigetsu, Jügo, etc.
  • It is worth noting that Jügo has actually managed to avoid Killer B's Lariat, and both he and Suigetsu and kept up with the Raikage and Killer B in combat to an extent.
• Black Zetsu should have an even wider range of knowledge than Sasuke on this and has no reason to lie here.
• This directly contradicts all of the scaling from the Lariat statement and Madara calc.

Reason 3 - Shikamaru and Choji's Anti-Feat

• In chapter 334 Kakuzu fires a Lighting Release technique at Shikamaru and Choji. While I have my own doubts about it, we currently assume on the wiki that the technique travels at an average lightning speed.
• Shikamaru and Choji appear completely incapable of saving themselves from the technique even though they have time to prepare for it; yet under the current backscaling from the Lariat technique both of these characters should be Relativistic+. There is clear inconsistency between how the characters are portrayed and what the current scaling rates them as.
• Like the above feat, this would contradict all of the current scaling from making Lariat 51% Lightspeed.

Reason 4 - Unreliability

• This reason is less important than the others but is still worth mentioning. Databooks are known for flowery language and not holding back on hyperboles; the very same paragraph states that the technique leaves no time at all for opponents to activate a jutsu which is disproven in the manga itself as Sasuke puts Killer B under Genjutsu while he is using the Lariat.
• Even a statement that appears straightforward (which isn't actually a reference to any specific speed value) can be hyperbolic.

Reason 5 - Madara Inconsistency

• Supposedly Madara is able to react to a Lightspeed attack in chapter 562 from which he gets his Relativistic calc. I believe this is a very ambiguous feat and doesn't concretely prove he actually reacted to a Lightspeed attack in the first place, but even if he did it is a very inconsistent feat:
• A much more powerful (and faster) version of Madara utterly fails to react to and block an attack from Eight Gates Guy who is charging at him directly in chapter 672.
  • Previously Guy "bending space" was rejected as proof of Guy having Relativistic or Sub-Relativistic speed, and there is certainly no suggestion that he is travelling faster than light. Yet how is Madara (who supposedly can easily block "lightspeed attacks" while much slower and weaker) failing to block Might Guy?

Conclusion
Both the databook statement and the Madara calc should be rejected for the inconsistencies they create, and the lack of support they have from the manga.

Also, here is Mindovin's reply to the OP for anyone interested in reading it.

Current Vote
Agree: WeeklyBattles, The real cal howard, Qawsedf234, Damage3245, The Calaca, Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, Promestein

Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus

Disagree: Shadowbokunohero, Mindovin

As i said in the previous thread i completely agree with this

I am personally starting to agree that the Lariat's calculation is pretty iffy, but I don't think we should ignore Madara's feat. First of all, he reacted to a Lightspeed attack, but that doesn't quite make him faster than light. It's just the percentage he moved in one movement to block a linear light speed attack. I'm pretty sure Madara would still be blitzed of there was a rapid fire of light speed attack volleys for instance. But he was at the very least fast enough to react to a single light speed projectile. Might Guy would just be a faster degree of Relativistic via scaling. Bending Space, would be a bad example, and of course he's not FTL, but he doesn't need to be. He just needs to be faster than Madara. However, I can agree that only god tiers who are comparable or superior to Madara should scale.

Also, I'm not a big fan of saying, "His attack was stated to only be the speed of lightning and is undodgable." I prefer to avoid direct comparisons to other verses; especially ones that are either overdone or described as opposite of Naruto. But I'm just going to use a simple example. There's Superman stating he's "Faster than a speeding bullet," but that doesn't mean he's only Supersonic. Or Flash stated to only be the Speed of Light when he did a feat that was trillions of times faster than that. However, I do agree that there's multiple characters who are stated to be Lightning speed.

I agree with characters weaker than Madara being downgraded to Massively Hypersonic+, and that Lariat seems unreliable. But, I don't think we should rule out Madara's feat. I would also like to here from TataHakai.

Wait when did Madara react to a lightspeed attack? Only lightspeed attack is Light Fang.

The real cal howard said:

Wait when did Madara react to a lightspeed attack? Only lightspeed attack is Light Fang.

Click to expand...

The only stuff that comes to my mind is

• The teleportation jutsu

• Being semi-blinded with Obito when the Ninja Allies used the knock off solar flare.

As for the thread topic I disagree with the current Relativstic stuff due to scaling issues and general speed inconsistencies. Although personally I think just calcing the lightfang using the anime and scaling from there is a much better/consistent choice.

Or Flash stated to only be the Speed of Light when he did a feat that was trillions of times faster than that.

Minor point, but if you're talking about the nuke scene then know that the WoG narration heavily contradicted itself and in another comic Jesse stated the feat took Flash several seconds to do.

The real cal howard said:

Wait when did Madara react to a lightspeed attack? Only lightspeed attack is Light Fang.

Click to expand...

The calc I mentioned in the top of the OP here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AlexSoloVaAlFuturo/Naruto_-_I_Have_No_Comments

Tsunade and Raikage were transported to the battlefield by Mabui's Ethereal Transmission jutsu which transports objects at lightspeed.

There has been some discussion for years about whether or not Madara actually reacted to the moving at lightspeed, or if he just reacted to them after they arrived. It has in fact been rejected multiple times in the past before being accepted a few months ago.

On a thread or on a blog? Because if it's been rejected for years and nothing has changed then nothing should be different. Period.

The real cal howard said:

On a thread or on a blog? Because if it's been rejected for years and nothing has changed then nothing should be different. Period.

Click to expand...

It was accepted in a thread a few months ago.

I am still not convinced by the arguments in favor of it myself and think it requires some generous interpretations to say that Madara 100% reacted to something travelling at lightspeed.

With a feat that ambiguous which stands out to a huge level above all the other feats in the verse, it is most likely an Outlier even if it is legit.

@Cal, to be fair, there have been a lot of Naruto threads in which new information has been applied left and right.

There hasn't been new information since kaguya came out.

There have been new details and clarifications; that's what was meant by information. We used to reject Light Fang being light-speed in general a long time ago. But then there was other explained details and stuff such as; the author couldn't draw strait.

@DDM; I believe the existing inconsistencies should suggest against it though.

You say that Guy just needs to be slightly faster than Madara, and this is normally true - but that doesn't take into account the full context of both feats.

For Edo Madara, there was less distance for the approaching "lightspeed" object to cover for him to react to it, and it was a surprise attack.

For Six Paths Madara, he is significantly stronger and faster than before, plus there is no surprise factor here, he can clearly see Guy approaching from a distance, and he has ample time to react to it (he's even holding his arms out in front of him already).

There's only two possible explanations; either he didn't actually react to a "lightspeed attack" previously, or Guy is attacking him at much faster speeds than the "lightspeed attack."

Also, changing Madara to just be Relativistic still doesn't address the other issues; the massive scaling chain we currently operate of would still put several characters at Relativistic speed despite the antifeats which suggest otherwise that I've listed above.

DarkDragonMedeus said:

There have been new details and clarifications; that's what was meant by information. We used to reject Light Fang being light-speed in general a long time ago. But then there was other explained details and stuff such as; the author couldn't draw strait.

Click to expand...

Let's be honest, it's because we have more lenient staff than we used to. None of the arguments changed.

I agree with DDM's assertion,

mid tier characters that would normally gush over Lighting based feats being borderline LS seems fishy to me.

either way id like to hear Tata's Input aswell

I've left a message on TataHakai's wall asking for his input.

The real cal howard said:

DarkDragonMedeus said:

There have been new details and clarifications; that's what was meant by information. We used to reject Light Fang being light-speed in general a long time ago. But then there was other explained details and stuff such as; the author couldn't draw strait.

Click to expand...

Let's be honest, it's because we have more lenient staff than we used to. None of the arguments changed.

Click to expand...

This is ironic considering we didn't accept Light fang as light speed for years and above you literally admitted it's light speed

It's not that we have more lenient staff it's that stupid arguments that come from fallacious points aren't accepted as debunks anymore, a clear example is the databook

As for the thread i've said what i needed to say in the other thread, i don't recall Damage actually replying to my last post on that thread but if you did let me know, i apologise if i'm not on so much i just moved back to Uni and am probably going to be busy for a bit

>Implying I'm not calling myself one of the lenient staff

To be fair most criticisms against the Databook (some are fair) also come out of a lack of context for the said statements

The real cal howard said:

>Implying I'm not calling myself one of the lenient staff

Click to expand...

I think it's a mix of both.

more Lenient staff aswell as better argumentations that counter some of the older debunks.

Shadowbokunohero said:

To be fair most criticisms against the Databook (some are fair) also come out of a lack of context for the said statements

Click to expand...

A fair point! Which is partly why this thread exists to examine the context and see the support (or lack thereof) in the manga.

Does anybody else have any more input? It seems the majority of staff who have commented so far are against the questionable Lariat statement being used.

Didn't TataHakai write a few Naruto calculations that ended up as FTL and were accepted by other calc group members?

@Antvasima; both of those are linked at the top of the previous thread, though only one of them is accepted.

Both of those calcs depend on the assumption that the databook statement proves the Raikage & Killer B's Lariat speed is 51% Lightspeed which this thread is addressing.

Okay. It seems best to wait for TataHakai to get the time to properly respond first though.

There was an accepted FTL feat, but I heard it only applied to Anime version and wasn't used for canon.

is it the Itachi one ?

It probably was

That would be Canon, the Itachi novels are canon.

but I think it would be an outlier

FTL anime feats that spring to mind is the anime version of the lightfang.

Shadowbokunohero said:

is it the Itachi one ?

Click to expand...

No, it's this calc he's referring to: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:TataHakai/FTL_Naruto:_Clickbait_Editio

Oh yeah, that's the one. Was looking for that blog.

ahh

Does anyone else have any more questions or concerns? Because I'm not sure that we should put this revision on indefinite pause just for a single staff member.

I think that we have probably waited for long enough now.

I'm preparing a reply. Take an hour at most.

I recommend othes to read this thread and previous 2 if necessary for further context why Madara's calc and Lariat accepted.

Reason 1 - Lack of Manga Support

• In the original manga there is no implication (or any supporting feats) that the characters possess anything close to Relativistic speed or reactions on that level with the exception of Madara's calc.

> Databooks exist for this reason. Author creates databook for give info (Kishimoto fails at it though I mean given unnesary hyperboles and hype text) about techs and characters.

Also, Naruto reacting A4 should calc again, Madara's calc is supporting feat. You can't disregard cals and feats.

Reason 2 - Sasuke and Black Zetsu's Statements

• In chapter 390 of the manga, Sasuke states that the Kirin is impossible to evade. In chapter 391 the reason for this is made clear; Black Zetsu states that it is due to how fast the lightning is.
• What is easy to conclude from this is simple; to the best of Sasuke's and Black Zetsu's knowledge it is typically impossible for shinobi to evade an attack as fast as Kirin. Kirin is explicitly natural lightning.

> @Shadowbokunero mentioned this in the previous thread iirc. This is for hyping a character and it's common. This attack kills in one hit- tanked, you can't react this, reacted, this attack impobssible to avoid, avoided. Whatever Zetsu says Itachi both reacted, tanked and technially evade it.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/evade

Zetsu says No one can evade this jutsu just like Amaterasu A4 completely evaded it and Sasuke run for a short time and technically evaded it.

• Sasuke at this time should have good knowledge on the speed of multiple characters including Orochimaru, Kabuto, Karin, Suigetsu, Jügo, etc.
  • It is worth noting that Jügo has actually managed to avoid Killer B's Lariat, and both he and Suigetsu and kept up with the Raikage and Killer B in combat to an extent.

>Juugo didn't avoid the B's Lariat. He boost himself and still thrown around and lost his balance.

It's common for characters to not go at full speed otherwise they become obsolote. Like Bee, Kakashi and Base Gai who fight alongside first KCM Naruto and later BM Naruto who is far faster than them.

• Black Zetsu should have an even wider range of knowledge than Sasuke on this and has no reason to lie here.
• This directly contradicts all of the scaling from the Lariat statement and Madara calc.

> How though? Also, Madara calc is the one supporting Lariat statement.

> Also, we should remember this is several arcs ago from WA (at least 5-6 iirc) and which arc characters becomes stronger, faster etc. This is common in battle shounen.

Reason 3 - Shikamaru and Choji's Anti-Feat

• In chapter 334 Kakuzu fires a Lighting Release technique at Shikamaru and Choji. While I have my own doubts about it, we currently assume on the wiki that the technique travels at an average lightning speed.
• Shikamaru and Choji appear completely incapable of saving themselves from the technique even though they have time to prepare for it; yet under the current backscaling from the Lariat technique both of these characters should be Relativistic+. There is clear inconsistency between how the characters are portrayed and what the current scaling rates them as.
• Like the above feat, this would contradict all of the current scaling from making Lariat 51% Lightspeed.

> Shikamaru and Choji are Massively Hypersonic+ and they don't scale to Relavistic or Relavistic+ feats. Don't bring unnecesarry characters. I personally against some of backscaling especially for this type characters and first Lariat nearly 10 arcs ago.

Reason 4 - Unreliability

• This reason is less important than the others but is still worth mentioning. Databooks are known for flowery language and not holding back on hyperboles; the very same paragraph states that the technique leaves no time at all for opponents to activate a jutsu which is disproven in the manga itself as Sasuke puts Killer B under Genjutsu while he is using the Lariat.

> Flowery language is diffrent from hyperbole. Let say Gai is 2-C (with accepted feats and statements from manga) and entry says use flowey language, it's accepted because it is true he can destroy it but author use ornate, elaborate words instead of directly saying it. So, flowery language isn't important. What is important to use is feat/statement in question is hyperbole or not.

If it says this character universe level (if said character is like 7-A or something) or moves at LS for a character who reacted casually by a supersonic character (Haku) we don't take it seriously using our common sense but it says rushing almost at the speed of light and we have Madara's calc to support it. It's clear it's hyping the character and speed of the tech. Doesn't Kishimoto know it? Sasuke activates a though base tech which requires only to look at the person and while using MS. A4 reacted by Madara, Minato and every god-tier blitz him casually.

Actually, I re-read the databook description and it says states that the technique leaves no time at all for opponents to activate a jutsu for Double Lariat not the one version Bee used against Sasuke. Which shows Kisame who trying to activate a jutsu but even he brings his hands together he doesn't have time to activate it. Entire Lariat entry is clear from hype text and hyperbole.

We look at the databook entries case by case basis.

• Even a statement that appears straightforward (which isn't actually a reference to any specific speed value) can be hyperbolic.

> It's straightforward and reference to character(s) speed when they use an attack, in what state (3tails for KB and LA for A4).

Reason 5 - Madara Inconsistency

• Supposedly Madara is able to react to a Lightspeed attack in chapter 562 from which he gets his Relativistic calc. I believe this is a very ambiguous feat and doesn't concretely prove he actually reacted to a Lightspeed attack in the first place, but even if he did it is a very inconsistent feat:

> It accepted. There is 3 thread for it . If you want it to be unaccepted then create a different thread for it and invite staff and everyone who knows Naruto and their way around calcs.

• A much more powerful (and faster) version of Madara utterly fails to react to and block an attack from Eight Gates Guy who is charging at him directly in chapter 672.
  • Previously Guy "bending space" was rejected as proof of Guy having Relativistic or Sub-Relativistic speed, and there is certainly no suggestion that he is travelling faster than light. Yet how is Madara (who supposedly can easily block "lightspeed attacks" while much slower and weaker) failing to block Might Guy?

> Madara reacted and Gai bypasses the TSB considering he can't destroy TSB and his body didn't erase from it as he attacks where half of TSB staff is protecting .

I don't think it's that relevant but bending space is accepted (limited spatial manip) already and said thread (I think this thread ) is not about bending space at all but bending space is actually gravity wave so Gai is at least Rel+.

Most of the problems I see is about scaling and power infalation and inconsistency of power levels of WA. This is the reason I say we should start from chap 1 and go in order and don't apply anything before reaching chap 699 and discussing everything throughly.

I think that's it for reply from me as I don't have time right now and I apologize if there is something offensing or anything.

1

You can't disregard cals and feats.

We do disregard calcs and feats in some circumstances, particularly for outliers. And especially for an ambiguous feat like this it is a lot easier to disregard.

2
This is for hyping a character and it's common. This attack kills in one hit- tanked, you can't react this, reacted, this attack impobssible to avoid, avoided. Whatever Zetsu says Itachi both reacted, tanked and technially evade it.

You seem to miss the point. The point isn't that Sasuke's and Black Zetsu's statements are objectively factual; it is that the statement are true to them based on their knowledge. Whether Itachi actually reacts, evades, or blocks the Kirin is irrelevant to the point.

Juugo didn't avoid the B's Lariat. He boost himself and still thrown around and lost his balance.

He boosted himself and managed to avoid being directly hit. This counts as avoiding in my book.

Also, we should remember this is several arcs ago from WA (at least 5-6 iirc) and which arc characters becomes stronger, faster etc.

This isn't relevant to the issue with the scaling.

3
Shikamaru and Choji are Massively Hypersonic+ and they don't scale to Relavistic or Relavistic+ feats. Don't bring unnecesarry characters. I personally against some of backscaling especially for this type characters and first Lariat nearly 10 arcs ago.

If you've read the previous thread you would know that they're not irrelevant at all. Their ratings are currently outdated but based on current scaling they scale to Relativstic at least. Don't trust everything you see on the current profiles because many of them are in need of updating.

4
Actually, I re-read the databook description and it says states that the technique leaves no time at all for opponents to activate a jutsu for Double Lariat not the one version Bee used against Sasuke. Which shows Kisame who trying to activate a jutsu but even he brings his hands together he doesn't have time to activate it. Entire Lariat entry is clear from hype text and hyperbole.

The Double Lariat increases the power of the attack since it is two attacks at once, not the speed of it which would be the same whether there was one character attacking or two at once.

5
It accepted. There is 3 thread for it . If you want it to be unaccepted then create a different thread for it and invite staff and everyone who knows Naruto and their way around calcs.

No. This thread is for the topic of that calc too.

Most of the problems I see is about scaling and power infalation and inconsistency of power levels of WA. This is the reason I say we should start from chap 1 and go in order and don't apply anything before reaching chap 699 and discussing everything throughly.

I'm fine revising the entire scaling of the verse if need be. I've already done that for Part 1 of the series.

We do disregard calcs and feats in some circumstances, particularly for outliers. And especially for an ambiguous feat like this it is a lot easier to disregard.

I was going to write something further but I forgot about it. Disregard it as it doesn't affect the actual discussion at all.

You seem to miss the point. The point isn't that Sasuke's and Black Zetsu's statements are objectively factual; it is that the statement are true to them based on their knowledge. Whether Itachi actually reacts, evades, or blocks the Kirin is irrelevant to the point.

So, what reason did you use Sasuke and Zetsu's statements to begin with? What reason their statement relevant to your points especially when they are wrong to begin with?

How can you argue they don't know enough about Karin, Juugo and Suigetsu considering Zetsu doesn't know about Susano'o and Kirin which proves he didn't watch what Sasuke is doing and others more irrelevant than Sasuke.

Sasuke didn't fight alongside them until that point. Karin was prison/lab manager, Suigetsu was a captive and Juugo was a test subject. Do you have any proof that Sasuke and Zetsu knows about their capabilities.

He boosted himself and managed to avoid being directly hit. This counts as avoiding in my book.

He reacted A4 while he was going on slower speeds, fights against non serious Bee and barely avoid being hit by 3-Tails Bee with boosting at last second when he saw the man is coming. So he scales to somethings I guess but what is the question.

Re-reading A4 nearly blitz him 2 times and Sugietsu has one interception feat, Sasuke several times reacted, countered and only able to hit thanks to Sharigan precog which against A4 who isn't going all out.

This directly contradicts all of the scaling from the Lariat statement and Madara calc.

How though?

This isn't relevant to the issue with the scaling.

Technically it's because characters several times get power boots. Naruto and Sasuke been the primary ones that every arc they become stronger and faster with new abilities. Every arc we introduced with new characters who are more powerful/faster/durable than previous ones which scales to this character with context. This is a common trope.

Like A4 is faster than normal KCM Naruto until he reacts to him who is faster than MS Sasuke.

Also, they are some problems with scaling reasonings too and they need to corrected.

Especially WA takes inflation considering ET Zabuza fightning against WA Kakashi on equal ground (iirc).

If you've read the previous thread you would know that they're not irrelevant at all. Their ratings are currently outdated but based on current scaling they scale to Relativstic at least. Don't trust everything you see on the current profiles because many of them are in need of updating.

Still who they are scaling though? They fought against Hidan, Kakuzu and they failed considerably react latter's lightning attack so they should be lower than IA Kakashi's level of speed which Mach 2.225 from calc @Kep did , if there isn't another calc or something. Iiirc, after this they don't have any significant feat, statement or scaling if any at all.

Also, we shouldn't forget that Shikamaru has only 2 key which 2nd one covers from Part 2 to Boruto's current arc and apperently going to cover until he dies.

Before forgetting, what's up with using Shikamaru who isn't physical fighter and Choji who doesn't know for his speed for anti-feat for a feats done by fast character who stated and feats showing they above most of the cast.

If your problem is they are scaling to Rel+ then we don't scale them which I agree.

We introduced to Lariat arcs and several upgrades later and A4 who says he becomes the fastest person when Minato died.

Kisame buffed by 8-Tails chakra so I don't think he shouldn't scale to previous arc characters.

PA SM Naruto blitzed one of the Pains and can keep up with Deva in Base so SM Naruto who should scale to MS Sasuke (as there isn't any FKS key) shouldn't scale by Pain.

Also, they are some problems with scaling reasonings too and they need to be corrected with carefully.

Like this. I see most of your points comes back to scaling.

The Double Lariat increases the power of the attack since it is two attacks at once, not the speed of it which would be the same whether there was one character attacking or two at once.

I never said anything about speed though, speed is same. I said basically is what you try to prove databook entry about Lariat is actually true, The entry mentions Double Lariat is the version that the technique leaves no time at all for opponents to activate a jutsu. Databook entry says that for DL and not Lariat so it correct for whatever reason speed isn't revelant. So, databook entry reliable and with supported by manga.

Also, I want to adress your Sasuke put Bee into Genjutsu argument with new points.

1) Sasuke reacts to 3Tails Bee using Sharingan's precog ability because Bee moving is linear and it makes easier .

2) When Sasuke use Genjutsu on Bee, the man announces himself before it and Sasuke uses MS this time which should increase his precog further than 3T.

I'm fine revising the entire scaling of the verse if need be. I've already done that for Part 1 of the series.

I'm not just talking simple revising some calcs but looking trough and finding ablities, databook entries and feats, discussing them if they could be calculated (for not wasting time of the calcer), calcing everything after entire manga/novels/databook look throughed (calcs must be approved at least 2 staff who knows about calc, only the math though because discussion is in the thread) and discussing who seems to be scale it if the calc isn't outlier.

I know it most likely takes several years (I'm optimist now) considering Boruto continues and novels are released of course it wouldn't end of it but in the end it finish the constant downgrade/upgrade thread that pops up 2 times a week some of them goes nearly a year iirc.


Also, there Issen which argued it light speed which Sasuke reacted (from what I read) that dropped later but considering I don't know about it that much I won't argue.

> So, what reason did you use Sasuke and Zetsu's statements to begin with? What reason their statement relevant to your points especially when they are wrong to begin with?

Because if from their perspective evading lightning would be considered a nigh-impossible feat, then it makes no sense for the majority of the verse to be several times faster than that as of the time they made those statements.

> How can you argue they don't know enough about Karin, Juugo and Suigetsu considering Zetsu doesn't know about Susano'o and Kirin which proves he didn't watch what Sasuke is doing and others more irrelevant than Sasuke.

Not sure what you mean here.

> Sasuke didn't fight alongside them until that point. Karin was prison/lab manager, Suigetsu was a captive and Juugo was a test subject. Do you have any proof that Sasuke and Zetsu knows about their capabilities.

Sasuke does know about their capablities seeing as he's been with them since he recruited them and stopped them from fighting each other.

> How though?

As I said above: "if from their perspective evading lightning would be considered a nigh-impossible feat, then it makes no sense for the majority of the verse to be several times faster than that as of the time they made those statements."

> Technically it's because characters several times get power boots. Naruto and Sasuke been the primary ones that every arc they become stronger and faster with new abilities. Every arc we introduced with new characters who are more powerful/faster/durable than previous ones which scales to this character with context. This is a common trope.

And that's a separate topic to what we're discussing.

> Still who they are scaling though? ... Like this. I see most of your points comes back to scaling.

Yes, the scaling is an issue. The core feats they're being scaled to is part of the issue too.

The characters are scaling to Kakashi, who is scaling to Pain who is Relativistic.

> I never said anything about speed though, speed is same.

Then you must be agreeing with my point then? Killer B travelling in a linear fashion or Sasuke using Sharingan precog doesn't alter the fact the statement from the databook is rendered false.

> I know it most likely takes several years (I'm optimist now) considering Boruto continues and novels are released of course it wouldn't end of it but in the end it finish the constant downgrade/upgrade thread that pops up 2 times a week some of them goes nearly a year iirc.

Removing the Lariat statement is one of the first steps towards sorting out the verse's speed in my opinion.

Just a note that we make a habit of recurrently ignoring author intents if the feats strongly contradict them.