Issues with Speed [Naruto] (STAFF ONLY)

[Damage3245]

@MostPowerfull; yes, which would support Amaterasu not actually being as fast as Kirin since it doesn't simply travel from point A to point B. All the Raikage managed to do was evade being the focal point of Sasuke's vision when the technique was activated or in other words be FTE to him.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Damage

Sasuke saw Amaterasu and compared him with Kirin. It is the word of the owner of the technique, after witnessing such efficiency.

And that makes it even more consistent. Sasuke, like Itachi, was able to react to Kirin. In his own words, Ay blitz the sight of Taka/MS Sasuke, several feets away, which Kirin failed to do with a blind and sick Itachi.

 

[Damage3245]

@MostPowerfull; have you considered that having flames burst into existence wherever you look at would be grounds for calling a technique impossible to avoid / block? It doesn't have to do with the actual speed of the flames themselves.

> which Kirin failed to do with a blind and sick Itachi.

Kirin was approaching Itachi from hundreds of meters away. Kind of a different scenario.

 

[MostPowerfull]

Although Amaterasu simply springs at his opponent, it's not like he doesn't have speed. That was why Sasuke himself could sometimes avoid.

In the manga, it is explicit that Itachi reacted only after Kirin's activation and that is why he simply scales his speed, so much so that Sasuke did not know that he had defended himself. I could just say that he reacted only when Kirin was 10cm from him and it would be as bad as assuming he reacted hundreds of meters.

EDIT - Well, from here, I'll just watch. I think I said what was needed.

 

[Damage3245]

> I could just say that he reacted only when Kirin was 10cm from him and it would be as bad as assuming he reacted hundreds of meters.

No, that would be far worse in fact because it is based on nothing. Why would Itachi wait until the technique is 10 cm from him when he's been staring at it the entire time even before its activation?

By the way, didn't you say that was just going to be your "one more comment?"

 

[Mindovin]

Amaterasu has speed.

Iirc, it also appeared whenever the user wants them too but I'm not sure because Naruto and A4 reacted it when it appeared in front of them.

I look at the relevant chapters again but I see no indication about Amaterasu appears at target's location, it always travels to the target.

 

[Damage3245]

@Mindovin; the point is, there is no reason to assume that Sasuke is specifically stating that the speed of Amaterasu is equal to the speed of Kirin.

Both can be considered unavoidable / unblockable in their own ways.

 

[Jvando]

Your argument from Kirin stems from the fact that Zetsu mentions it being impossible to evade since it moves at the speed of lighting and as such, it's illogical for Naruto characters to be able to move Multiple times faster than that.

1) Zetsu, as an intel gatherer for the Akatsuki, has a wealth of knowledge on the capabilities of numerous shinobi. As a result, it he says something is impossible to evade, it should more or less be a fact that applies to even the top tiers, however...

2) Sasuke makes a direct comparison on the difficulty of evasion between Kirin and Amaterasu. Even if we want to say that he wasn't talking about speed, the fact of the matter is that they are comparatively, just as difficult to evade as each other, yet, the Raikage, an arc later, evades it. How did that slip from Zetsu? Of note, the Raikage didn't use some clever means but only pure speed.

Now, let's say that Amaterasu is difficult to evade because you would need to outspeed the opponent's perception and not necessarily the jutsu itself. Even, then, it would still indicate that Ay is > than Kirin. It's important to realize that Sasuke's current perception with his Mangekyo should be around the level of a dying and nearly blind Itachi, the same Itachi who was able to perceive and react to Natural lighting. If Ay is > than that perception, then Logically he should be faster than Kirin.

If the above is true and Zetsu's statement is taken at face value, it means that:

1. Zetsu apparently had a hole in his research if he didn't know there was someone capable of dodging Kirin.

2. Zetsu's statement of "Which is why it cannot be evaded" doesn't seem to imply he's saying something along the lines of "No shinobi can evade it". It seems more so like he is reiterating Sasuke's point with a reason (it being lighting speed) than making a blanket statement.

3. A statement made in the middle of Shippuden doesn't hold through for the series later down the line. There are always going to be things hyped up with "Impossible to block" or "impossible to dodge" yet somehow, those are soon proven untrue. I don't think Zetsu's statement should be taken to mean no shinobi Dead or alive can dodge natural lighting ever. It doesn't even seem like he's implying such a thing when you read the full chapter.

In conclusion, the thing about Kirin being impossible to dodge as Stated by Zetsu is disproven when Ay later dodges a comparatively as difficult to dodge technique. Ignoring speed, Ay was still able to outspeed the perception of Sasuke who logically should have perception > or = to a near blind and dead Itachi.

 

[Damage3245]

> How did that slip from Zetsu? Of note, the Raikage didn't use some clever means but only pure speed.

Well, it's entirely possible Black Zetsu has never seen the Raikage using two amps and Teleportation jutsu to move that quickly. After all the feat of dodging Amaterasu happened a while after the statement was made.

> It's important to realize that Sasuke's current perception with his Mangekyo should be around the level of a dying and nearly blind Itachi, the same Itachi who was able to perceive and react to Natural lighting. If Ay is > than that perception, then Logically he should be faster than Kirin.

Not necessarily. Kirin was much further away from Itachi than the Raikage was from Sasuke, and since he knew he was the target of the attack anyway, it's not as if it required amazing reaction times.

If anything all he had to do was activate his Susano'o in roughly 0.001 seconds.

> I don't think Zetsu's statement should be taken to mean no shinobi Dead or alive can dodge natural lighting ever.

I fully agree. I never meant to imply that.

> In conclusion, the thing about Kirin being impossible to dodge as Stated by Zetsu is disproven when Ay later dodges a comparatively as difficult to dodge technique.

Right, but this isn't a justification for accepting 10% Lightspeed for A and Killer B.

A (with amped Lightning Chakra Armor and Teleportation jutsu) could very well be faster than Kirin. However he can be faster than Kirin without being anywhere close to 10% Lightspeed.

And even if he was the one exception in the verse for being faster than Kirin with his amplification, that would still rule out the large majority of characters from being faster than it.

 

[Jvando]

Well, it's entirely possible Black Zetsu has never seen the Raikage using two amps and Teleportation jutsu to move that quickly. After all the feat of dodging Amaterasu happened a while after the statement was made.

I'm not sure what the "the feat of dodging Amaterasu happened a while after the statement was made" has to do with anything tbh. My main point with this is that Zetsu's statement of "Thats why it's impossible to evade" doesn't apply to every character and that clearly, he doesn't know the full capabilities of every character. Additionally, a statement made at an earlier point in the series shouldn't limit potentially greater feats that occur later on in the series.

Not necessarily. Kirin was much further away from Itachi than the Raikage was from Sasuke, and since he knew he was the target of the attack anyway, it's not as if it required amazing reaction times. If anything all he had to do was activate his Susano'o in roughly 0.001 seconds.

Cloud to Ground lighting was what was being described as taking 0.001s since Zetsu was making a generalization of all Natural lighting. Not cloud to hill top. Itachi would need to react in a much shorter period of time than that.

My main point is that based on the scan I provided about Ay dodging Amaterasu, he was FTE to Sasuke's perception which is relative to Itachi's which could perceive Kirin.

Right, but this isn't a justification for accepting 10% Lightspeed for A and Killer B. A (with amped Lightning Chakra Armor and Teleportation jutsu) could very well be faster than Kirin. However he can be faster than Kirin without being anywhere close to 10% Lightspeed. And even if he was the one exception in the verse for being faster than Kirin with his amplification, that would still rule out the large majority of characters from being faster than it.

The justification is the statement itself combined with that fact, for one. Additionally, my point isn't that Ay is the exception and it never was. It was that the statement of "Cant be evaded" cannot be reliably applied to most characters as an anti-feat against higher speed feats.

Your argument against using 10% seem to stem more so from not believing it than anything concrete. And again, 10% would only be for Lariat and nothing else. The DB statement indicates it's a technique that requires a short burst movement at that speed and not that it would in any way scale to Ay's or Bee's normal combat speed.

 

[Damage3245]

> I'm not sure what the "the feat of dodging Amaterasu happened a while after the statement was made" has to do with anything tbh. My main point with this is that Zetsu's statement of "Thats why it's impossible to evade" doesn't apply to every character and that clearly, he doesn't know the full capabilities of every character.

It has to do with the fact that until the actual feat of dodging Amaterasu happened the statement did apply to virtually every character that Black Zetsu has knowledge of.

> Additionally, a statement made at an earlier point in the series shouldn't limit potentially greater feats that occur later on in the series.

Sure? If those feats aren't contradicted.

> Cloud to Ground lighting was what was being described as taking 0.001s since Zetsu was making a generalization of all Natural lighting. Not cloud to hill top. Itachi would need to react in a much shorter period of time than that.

Not much shorter tbh. It could probably be worked out in a calc (just not an applicable one due to calc-stacking of course).

> My main point is that based on the scan I provided about Ay dodging Amaterasu, he was FTE to Sasuke's perception which is relative to Itachi's which could perceive Kirin.

Right - but have you considered that Itachi doesn't actually need to percieve Kirin to activate his jutsu? He just needed to keep track of Sasuke activating the jutsu (which he did by pointing his fingers at Itachi) and then he all he needed to do was activate his Susano'o. He doesn't need to be looking at the Kirin for that to happen.

> It was that the statement of "Cant be evaded" cannot be reliably applied to most characters as an anti-feat against higher speed feats.

Seems fine to me. Remember no one has actually evaded Kirin. Even if Amaterasu is comparable we cannot say it an exactly equal feat to dodging Kirin.

> And again, 10% would only be for Lariat and nothing else. The DB statement indicates it's a technique that requires a short burst movement at that speed and not that it would in any way scale to Ay's or Bee's normal combat speed.

I've already explained how the more likely interpretation is that the DB statement does not appear specific to Lariat. What part of the Lariat itself would boost the user's speed automatically to 10% of the speed of light? Where is that implied in the manga itself?

Killer B's wording in the manga would suggest against it.

 

[MostPowerfull]

Really sorry, but I really need to reiterate a point that I find very important. I'm really trying to keep quiet.

For Itachi to only need 0.001s, it would need to react just as Kirin descended from the cloud, in this exact moment. One meter below and that time would decrease.

• And I'm sure Zetsu just reiterated the usual time to lightning strike from the clouds to the ground and Sasuke managed to tame that lightning and bring it close to him (at least in the manga) before sending it to Itachi.

If anyone can prove how far away Kirin was from Itachi when he actually reacted to it, then I'm fine. If not, Itachi's reaction only scales Kirin's speed, as it usually does.
Reacting hundreds of meters or reacting a few meters ... Occam's Razor or basic Scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

@MostPowerfull; of course, but if we follow through from that logic Itachi's reaction time could go from 0.001 seconds to MFTL+. The most reasonable thing is not to assume a particular shorter distance since we have nothing suggesting that is the case.

Plus as I stated above Itachi doesn't need to react to Kirin itself, just Sasuke pointing his fingers at him. It's effectively aim-dodging. (Or in this case, aim-blocking).

 

[Jvando]

Itachi reacted after the jutsu was released, not before. Even if you keep track of a gun pointing at you, if you react after the bullet is fired, that wouldn't be aim dodging

 

[MostPowerfull]

I totally agree and that's why Itachi simply scales to Kirin in reaction.

I don't remember Sasuke pointing his fingers at Itachi. I remember him lowering his arm to symbolize that he activated the technique, a glare is seen approaching Itachi and Kirin hits the target. Plus, Sasuke was unable to know that Itachi had defended himself, so it was not aim dodge unless he has evidence to back it up. Itachi could barely see Sasuke a few feet from him without his vision being completely distorted.


This was definitely not Aim Dodge. It is just a simple case of scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; Again though, he's reacting to something that's starting from hundreds of meters away. Unless we have proof that Itachi didn't start reacting to it until it was a few meters from him, then I don't see what relevance it has. (Seems like it would also be an anti-feat? If he's incapable of keeping track of something that is MHS+ over hundreds of meters, then that's some pretty poor reactions).

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando; Again though, he's reacting to something that's starting from hundreds of meters away. Unless we have proof that Itachi didn't start reacting to it until it was a few meters from him, then I don't see what relevance it has.

He didn't react to it hundreds of meters away though. Kirin was brought down towards Sasuke before he let it go completely. Dozens of meters at best and even then, that doesn't suggest any form of aimdodging like you are trying to claim.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; if Itachi can see Sasuke aiming the jutsu at him and releasing it (by moving his arm / pointing his fingers) then he doesn't need to react to the lightning itself, he just needs to react to Sasuke activating it.

Susano'o appearing after the lightning started moving isn't necessarily the same as Itachi reacting after the lightning started moving.

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando; if Itachi can see Sasuke aiming the jutsu at him and releasing it (by moving his arm / pointing his fingers) then he doesn't need to react to the lightning itself, he just needs to react to Sasuke activating it.

I know, problem is that this is not shown in the manga at all. The lighting is brought down then we see a flash covering Itachi's face signaling its arrival at Mach 5.8k but we don't see him immediately activating his Susanoo. No where does the manga indicate that Itachi aim dodged. You can claim he did, but there's nothing to back that up

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; I'm not saying that is how it had to have happened, but it is equally plausible. As I stated above: Susano'o appearing after the lightning started moving isn't necessarily the same as Itachi reacting after the lightning started moving.

In effect, this still doesn't mean the Raikage moving FTE to Sasuke means he is faster than Kirin. I think we've been side-tracked on this argument a bit too much.

 

[Jvando]

No, it is not equally plausible if the scene doesn't support that rendition of events.

"but have you considered that Itachi doesn't actually need to percieve Kirin to activate his jutsu? He just needed to keep track of Sasuke activating the jutsu (which he did by pointing his fingers at Itachi) and then he all he needed to do was activate his Susano'o. He doesn't need to be looking at the Kirin for that to happen."

^ that was your argument when I referenced the Raikage being FTE to Sasuke's perception. You claimed that Itachi aim-dodged which is not shown anywhere and is essentially a claim pulled out of air.

Going back on topic.

Seems fine to me. Remember no one has actually evaded Kirin. Even if Amaterasu is comparable we cannot say it an exactly equal feat to dodging Kirin.

It kind of would though.

I've already explained how the more likely interpretation is that the DB statement does not appear specific to Lariat. What part of the Lariat itself would boost the user's speed automatically to 10% of the speed of light? Where is that implied in the manga itself? Killer B's wording in the manga would suggest against it.

My argument wasn't that it was "specific to lariat" but that it merely required a burst of movement at that speed. That at all wouldn't scale to the Raikage's normal movement or attack speed but only when using such tehcniques that require "great speed". Actually, the very fact that Ay has a "fastest punch" indicates that he can increase his speed in short bursts to exceptionally high levels. This would be the same case for lariat.

Its not that there's something to lariat that boosts their speed to 10% SoL, but that they do increase their speed up to that amount in order to perform that technique. Again, this wouldn't scale to any of their normal stats.


In the end, I think staff can look at the proposal MostPowerfull set forward, the discussions after it, and decide if it works or not. If your issue is that the characters, at the time Kirin was introduced, couldn't possibly have been able to dodge it, then we simply don't backscale to that time. Most of the lariat issues came from the gross highball which caused huge inconsistencies and the terrible scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

> If your issue is that the characters, at the time Kirin was introduced, couldn't possibly have been able to dodge it, then we simply don't backscale to that time

I don't think it is as simple as that. There are characters that exist after Kirin was introduced who are affected by the scaling.

Take Minato for example. As somebody up above posted, Black Zetsu is aware of Minato's capabilities when he was alive. Yet he is someone who was capable of evading the Raikage and reacting to him even in his Lightning Chakra mode.

Also, how fast are you proposing the Raikage's normal combat speed / movement speed to be?

 

[Jvando]

I don't think it is as simple as that. There are characters that exist after Kirin was introduced who are affected by the scaling.

Take Minato for example. As somebody up above posted, Black Zetsu is aware of Minato's capabilities when he was alive. Yet he is someone who was capable of evading the Raikage and reacting to him even in his Lightning Chakra mode.

We had an entire discussion about this in which you agreed that Zetsu possibly wasn't aware of the Raikage's speed after the amps. If that's the case, whose to say Zetsu ever saw Minato reacting to Ay's maximum speed or any of the top tier's maximum speed for that matter? He's aware of Minato's capabilities for sure, but he doesn't have to know Minato's full capabilities to understand he would be killed in an instant by him.

The scaling for such characters wouldn't have to change. Likely conclusion is that Zetsu wasn't aware of their full capabilities (in this case, their speed) and his statement was made in mild ignorance. Besides, such characters (I'm assuming you mean characters like the Edo Tensei) only made their debut some arcs after that statement and, to my knowledge, it isn't like they interacted with the characters from the time of Kirin's statement and before that in a combat scenario.

We can reasonably sort the scaling from before and after that Kirin statement. It's not so difficult.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; in order to check if the scaling holds up, it would probably be best if a list was drafted of what rating each character would scale to before we accept the statement for use.

That way we can be certain we're not inadvertently creating some errors in using it. Would you, or another user supporting the statement, be willing to create the list? (Obviously not of every character in the series, but the ones impacted by the revision).

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando; in order to check if the scaling holds up, it would probably be best if a list was drafted of what rating each character would scale to before we accept the statement for use.

That way we can be certain we're not inadvertently creating some errors in using it. Would you, or another user supporting the statement, be willing to create the list? (Obviously not of every character in the series, but the ones impacted by the revision).

This sounds reasonable. If it doesnt hold up, we torch it and call it a day. I don't mind working on it at all. Though, I will have to also redo the calcs for Lariat. Additionally, outlier calcs simply don't count and will be discarded. By that, I mean something like 25c Minato

 

[The_Calaca]

I was asked to comment here again, but I got no time to carefully read through over 20 replies with such lengths so I'm going to sum it up.

If Sasuke stated Amaterasu and Kirin have same speed, it should be treated as such. Both are projectile based and arguing for semantics to get rid of that scaling is dishonest.

I'd like to be of more help, but I don't understand what's the discussion's about now.

 

[Damage3245]

@The Calaca; here is the page in question. Sasuke isn't explicitly talking about the speed of Amaterasu here, just that both techniques "cannot be evaded or blocked".

There is more than one reason why something could be considered unavoidable or unblockable.

 

[The_Calaca]

Then that's a whole different can of worms. Both being "unblockable/undodgable" (which is BS obviously) sounds more like a hyperbolic comparison rather than a statistical comparison.

Sasuke obviously doesn't know the limits of the techniques, especially Amaterasu's. He didn't know the technique before, IIRC, so his claim shouldn't be taken too seriously.

 

[Damage3245]

@The Calaca; there is no reason to assume it is hyperbole when we have two characters echoing the idea that the speed of the technique is what makes it considered to be impossible to evade.

Characters don't need to be all-knowing for us to use statements within the extent of their actual knowledge.

 

[Damage3245]

By the way, to give an idea of the kind of inconsistencies I was talking about, if we assumed that Killer B's Lariat against Sasuke was 10% Lightspeed, that would make 3-Tome Sasuke's combat/movement speed to be Mach 70660.6. That is a pretty huge jump when the rest of the cast has almost entirely low-end MHS+ feats. Even if you attribute the reason Sasuke was able to perform the feat was due to the precognition of the Sharingan he still had to physically move that fast.

 

[MostPowerfull]

I'm sure this is for Sasuke's reaction w/ precog, not for his normal combat speed. In the battle against Naruto vs. Sasuke in the Classic, we see how well Sasuke's precognition is. It makes a big difference. It would be the same thing that happened with Spiderman. Still, we have the feat of Kisame, which recalculating it would be around Mach 20K.

High Tiers below Relativistic is consistent.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

I know it's staff only but I just want to give my 2 cents on one part. Shikamaru and Choji did react to the False Darkness lightning attack from Kakuzu. Kakashi was just fast enough to intercept it.

 

[Damage3245]

@TFO; they "reacted" but as I stated in the OP they were incapable of saving themselves. They were warned to run, they failed to do so, both of them were just standing there as the lightning jutsu closed in on them.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@TFO; they "reacted" but as I stated in the OP they were incapable of saving themselves. They were warned to run, they failed to do so, both of them were just standing there as the lightning jutsu closed in on them.

If you look at the scans of those scenes, Shikamaru was gonna likely seal it away as he brought up a scroll to block the attack. Choji was a dead man but whatever the case, neither at that point was ever noteworthy in regards to speed anyways but still could react to it. Last post.

 

[AstralKing7]

What's being argued now cause last I checked most of all the staff members are fine with the Madara calc.

Everything else that's for Lariet should just be discussed on anothe thresd cause it's hard to tell what's being discussed here

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; the majority have not voted in favour of Madara's calc. If people officially change their vote then it is recorded in the OP.

Presently we're discussing how the ratings would be affected by accepting the Lariat statement.

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage

It would probably be good if you post a summary, and then ask all of the staff members who commented earlier here to do so again.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; I intended to do that once Jvando has competed his list of proposed speed ratings for the characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is fine then. No problem.

 

[Damage3245]

By the way, since the people who have requested permission to say their piece have done so, I think it makes sense for this thread to return primarily to being Staff Only with the exception of Jvando who has some posts left to make to argue for his side, and that regular members should let the the staff handle the discussion going forwards. This will make it easier to keep track of the voting and stop the thread from growing too large too quickly.