Issues with Immeasurable Speed in Ben 10

[Pepsimanslover_69]

If I remember correctly, the justification is that the device is what created the Hypertimeline and the omnitrix can react to it.

As for the device's energy destroying wave, we see it travel to engulf entire universe, which is infinite in Ben 10, so infinite speed, But it also has the ability to create a hypertimeline in the same manner, so also Immeasurable?

 

[Forthegood]

If there are no statements confirming this, then I would simply argue it’s just an animation difference.

But your eyes clearly tells you theres a clear difference? The colour of the destruction in the annilargh is purple meanwhile the colour of the creation is red so just passing it by by using "animation difference" is still bad as you can clearly see you can very well distinguish the two intsances.

Aloph actually brought up a very good point which might downgrade their movement speed back to MFTL+ but not their reaction speed because if we still accept the Annilargh as being Immeasurable speed We can potentially scale the omnitrix below the celetialsapien race.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Space Beyond is accepted as having a higher temporal dimension of it's own, since the bomb travelled even beyond it, reaching the timestream, wouldn't this be an Immeasurable feat?

Sure, but the justification needs to be rewritten

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Sure, but the justification needs to be rewritten

So, the thread over, or we are still discussion the Omnitrix scaling that Forthegood brought?

 

[Aolphl]

Aloph

Why does everyone writing my nickname wrong?

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Sure, but the justification needs to be rewritten

How about?

"Immobile, Infinite via destroying energy wave(Had engulfed the entire universe in the process of destroying it) and Immeasurable via creating energy wave(Created the Timestream, a super imposing Hypertimeline)"

Do we assume that they are same BTW?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

How about?

"Immobile, Infinite via destroying energy wave(Had engulfed the entire universe in the process of destroying it) and Immeasurable via creating energy wave(Created the Timestream, a super imposing Hypertimeline)"

Do we assume that they are same BTW?

Imo that works better

 

[Forthegood]

Why does everyone writing my nickname wrong?

my brain slipped

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

This thread's topic is not Alien X, but if you want to talk about it a lot, his battle with the Galactic Gladiator is literally an Outlier. Although he and the other CPs are "Immeasurable", Galactic Gladiator cannot escape from the center of a black hole. According to the Wiki, escaping from the center of a black hole is an Infinite feat, but Galactic Gladiator who is "Immeasurable" cannot escape from the center of a black hole.

Black Hole Feats in Fiction

When it comes to the topic of black holes there are a lot of common misconceptions about their nature and through that also misconceptions about the evaluation of feats involving them. Generally, black holes are often depicted wrong in works of fiction. While a completely correct depiction can...

vsbattles.fandom.com

So they are have huge Anti-Feat for Immeasurable Speed.

Galactic Gladiator's not exactly on the run. Benjamin kept him there, undecided, or at least that was his intention. According to the wiki, being able to send a wave of energy across the temporal dimensions is considered an Immeasurable Speed achievement.

 

[Aolphl]

Aloph actually brought up a very good point which might downgrade their movement speed back to MFTL+ but not their reaction speed because if we still accept the Annilargh as being Immeasurable speed We can potentially scale the omnitrix below the celetialsapien race.

It is a fact that CPS can be scaled to other characters because they are the most powerful entity in verse. But their scaling to the Omnitrix is an Outlier. If we leave them Immeasurable, this would be ignoring the rules of the Wiki, no, even if we just leave their Perception Speed Immeasurable and take everything else MFTL+, this is still unlikely, because they can also fight with each other while moving and perceive each other. Based on my experiment with Immeasurable Speed for Regular Show characters, I don't think it would be right for even the Perception Speeds of CPS to be Immeasurable.

 

[Aolphl]

Galactic Gladiator's not exactly on the run.

He tries to escape, but fails, and eventually crumbles to atoms.

Benjamin kept him there, undecided, or at least that was his intention.

Prove that this is the case, this is a black hole after all, and the Wiki has rules about it.

According to the wiki, being able to send a wave of energy across the temporal dimensions is considered an Immeasurable Speed achievement.

Yeah. So?

 

[Firestorm808]

Revised the page to better reflect the agreement from the original thread.

 

[Forthegood]

It is a fact that CPS can be scaled to other characters because they are the most powerful entity in verse. But their scaling to the Omnitrix is an Outlier. If we leave them Immeasurable, this would be ignoring the rules of the Wiki, no, even if we just leave their Perception Speed Immeasurable and take everything else MFTL+, this is still unlikely, because they can also fight with each other while moving and perceive each other. Based on my experiment with Immeasurable Speed for Regular Show characters, I don't think it would be right for even the Perception Speeds of CPS to be Immeasurable.

Totally agree with this i think you should probably make a separate thread for this because i think that there are to many contradictions now that you havd mentioned it. Couldnt we make a case for combat speed at the very least? Because i feel like yes if GG has immeasurable speed he couldve easily came out of the black hole but failed to do so due to having low Movement speed. Do you think we can make a different case for combat?

 

[Aolphl]

Totally agree with this i think you should probably make a separate thread for this because i think that there are to many contradictions now that you havd mentioned it.

I'm planning to create Crts for the Ben 10 verse soon, and at the beginning of them there are characters like Alien X. Yes, I can postpone this until later.

Couldnt we make a case for combat speed at the very least? Because i feel like yes if GG has immeasurable speed he couldve easily came out of the black hole but failed to do so due to having low Movement speed. Do you think we can make a different case for combat?

The same reasons I explained above, I don't think it's very possible.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

This is further contradicted by the fact that even normal aliens could react to the Annihilarg before it engulfed them,

Plot induced stupidity

Galactic Gladiator that could keep up with Alien X being unable to escape from a Black Hole.

It ignores the fact that it wasn't an ordinary black hole but rather a black hole powered by multiple clones of a Celestialsapien

but the issue is that you can also achieve that with range.

This was debunked before as well

 

[Worthless]

The Space Beyond is accepted as having a higher temporal dimension of it's own, since the bomb travelled even beyond it, reaching the timestream, wouldn't this be an Immeasurable feat?

Like, i personally don't care for the verse ratings, this is a genuine question

I don't see why this phrasing would be any different and not be considered range too. Denying its clear anti-feat by claiming it's PIS, when it could simply mean it's not as fast as y'all exaggerated it to be, just so this scaling could proceed, is just unreasonable.

 

[Worthless]

Sure, but the justification needs to be rewritten

I don't see why that makes things different. You could still achieve that without necessarily needing Immeasurable Speed, and there are clear counterarguments to this scaling. Ignoring them, treating it as PIS is the same as overlooking the obvious flaws in their interpretation.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I don't see why this phrasing would be any different and not be considered range too.

My previous explanation applies here

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't see why that makes things different. You could still achieve that without necessarily needing Immeasurable Speed, and there are clear counterarguments to this scaling. Ignoring them, treating it as PIS is the same as overlooking the obvious flaws in their interpretation.

If the top tier of the cosmology is accepted as having a hypertimeline and it affected the entire structure, that would involve affecting two temporal axis which would be immeasurable by the standards.

If it didn't affect it then yes, it would just be infinite and nothing more.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I don't see why that makes things different. You could still achieve that without necessarily needing Immeasurable Speed, and there are clear counterarguments to this scaling. Ignoring them, treating it as PIS is the same as overlooking the obvious flaws in their interpretation.

Im sorry but the feat is clearly a speed feat and maybe that GG example could be used as a counter argument to Alien X scaling to it, but I heavily disagree on using the normal Aliens as a argument against the feat and claiming it range bc of that

 

[Worthless]

If the top tier of the cosmology is accepted as having a hypertimeline and it affected the entire structure, that would involve affecting two temporal axis which would be immeasurable by the standards.

I would try to be understanding, but how does that exactly make it an immeasurable speed?

If it didn't affect it then yes, it would just be infinite and nothing more.

Even if it didn’t affect it, I still think it shouldn’t be considered infinite. Fiction often overlooks such details, and Ben 10 is no exception, as we can see even normal aliens reacting to it.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Even if it didn’t affect it, I still think it shouldn’t be considered infinite. Fiction often overlooks such details, and Ben 10 is no exception, as we can see even normal aliens reacting to it

That doesn't disprove the feat itself, only the normal aliens scaling to it instead due to it being a big unexplained jump in speed (asw as them not even be on Alien X level in terms of Speed)

Sorry if repeating myself

 

[Worthless]

Im sorry but the feat is clearly a speed feat and maybe that GG example could be used as a counter argument to Alien X scaling to it, but I heavily disagree on using the normal Aliens as a argument against the feat and claiming it range bc of that

They are not the main reason I disagree, that scene with normal aliens is just to further solidify my claim

 

[Worthless]

But your eyes clearly tells you theres a clear difference? The colour of the destruction in the annilargh is purple meanwhile the colour of the creation is red so just passing it by by using "animation difference" is still bad as you can clearly see you can very well distinguish the two intsances

I was talking about the speed, though- On second look, I don’t see a difference in speed, and this feels like another assumption on top of an already existing assumption and using it as a counter. Aside from thinking it’s faster based on animation, is there any actual confirmation of this? Coz even the same character can look slow in some scenes and fast in others. Moreover, it’s odd to claim there are differences when they come from the same source.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I would try to be understanding, but how does that exactly make it an immeasurable speed?

If the top tier of the cosmology is accepted as having a hypertimeline and it affected the entire structure, that would involve affecting two temporal axis which would be immeasurable by the standards.

(Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)

 

[Worthless]

@Lloydblitzed isn't that referring to sheer speed? Which, in Annilargh's case, failed to meet because it is more due to range than speed

 

[Lloydblitzed]

@Lloydblitzed isn't that referring to sheer speed? Which, in Annilargh's case, failed to meet because it is more due to range than speed

No, Annilargh's case is Attack Speed (Destruction wave energy). Range would be if the Annilargh instanly wipe out the Universes without any omnidirectional blast of the sort, or have no feats showcasing how exactly the feat was caused (which is why so many 3-A and above chars do not have Immesurable/infinite attack speed)

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

y'all

Like, i personally don't care for the verse ratings, this is a genuine question

 

[Worthless]

No, Annilargh's case is Attack Speed (Destruction wave energy). Range would be if the Annilargh instanly wipe out the Universes without any omnidirectional blast of the sort, or have no feats showcasing how exactly the feat was caused (which is why so many 3-A and above chars do not have Immesurable/infinite attack speed)

If we're being practical, an energy based attack or a punch collision that can destroy the universe, like in Isekai At Peace, would likely be omnidirectional as well. And this argument suggests that Goku aura has infinite speed because it shook the Infinite Void after he transformed. So, regardless of how it happens, it still doesn't rule out the idea that it's due to range, especially given that most authors and production usually don't take these kinds of things into account.

 

[Huesito88]

If we're being practical, an energy based attack or a punch collision that can destroy the universe, like in Isekai At Peace, would likely be omnidirectional as well. And this argument suggests that Goku aura has infinite speed because it shook the Infinite Void after he transformed. So, regardless of how it happens, it still doesn't rule out the idea that it's due to range

I mean Goku was being talked about having MFTL+ speed for aura speed for ssj3, so what is the problem in this part of your conversation?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If we're being practical, an energy based attack or a punch collision that can destroy the universe, like in Isekai At Peace, would likely be omnidirectional as well. And this argument suggests that Goku aura has infinite speed because it shook the Infinite Void after he transformed. So, regardless of how it happens, it still doesn't rule out the idea that it's due to range, especially given that most authors and production usually don't take these kinds of things into account.

Might want to re-read the "Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured" part, as well as what Hypertimelines are

 

[Worthless]

I mean Goku was being talked about having MFTL+ speed for aura speed for ssj3, so what is the problem in this part of your conversation?

If they accepted it, that would be one thing, but he's not the only one who has shaken the universe yet received no speed upgrade.

Might want to re-read the "Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured" part, as well as what Hypertimelines are

It's referring to sheer speed isn't it?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It's referring to sheer speed isn't it?

Now explain with the current justification why its range?

If they accepted it, that would be one thing, but he's not the only one who has shaken the universe

Shaking the Universes is not the same as affecting an entire hypertimeline, ot making omnidirectional blasts that covers an infinite distance

 

[Hellformer]

No, because you're confusing two temporal axis with two seperate space times.

EDIT: To clarify, the Immeasurable speed rating is talking about crossing from one temporal dimensional axis to another. Not crossing from one timeline to another. To get Immeasurable from it you have to travel to interact with a sideways temporal axis or hypertimeline. The bomb does neither and would at best be infinite on a 26D scale.

Sorry but I think there's a misconception. The Immeasurable speed rating of Annihilargh literally comes due to traversing accross Hypertimelines. Not due to traversing accross space-times. This should make it crystal clear enough to not leave any doubt.

 

[Hellformer]

If the top tier of the cosmology is accepted as having a hypertimeline and it affected the entire structure, that would involve affecting two temporal axis which would be immeasurable by the standards.

Yes that's what the actual reasoning is

 

[Forthegood]

I was talking about the speed, though- On second look, I don’t see a difference in speed,

In examining the speed at which the Annilargh operates, it's crucial to differentiate between perception and actual events, especially in scenarios as profound as the destruction and creation of a universe. While it's true that animation or depiction can give a subjective impression of speed—sometimes showing the same character as fast in one instance and slow in another—there are key narrative and contextual clues that suggest the Annilargh's speed during creation is indeed faster.

Firstly, when the universe was destroyed by the Annilargh, the process, although powerful, unfolded with a certain level of deliberation. The destruction was often depicted with significant buildup, emphasizing the immense force required to dismantle reality. This destruction, though overwhelming, gave a sense of gradual inevitability, a cataclysmic event that unfolded over time, allowing for the drama and weight of the moment to be fully realized.

In contrast, the creation of the universe by the Annilargh is described as an instantaneous event—a burst of pure, unbridled energy that births existence in a mere moment. The narrative surrounding this event emphasizes the speed and immediacy with which the Annilargh can create. This is not just a function of the animation style or artistic choice but is rooted in the lore itself. The creation is often depicted as a flash, an almost incomprehensible surge of energy that contrasts sharply with the more measured pace of destruction. We even have ben basically confirming in a way that the Big bang and Annilargh work the same (in creation) when ben refers to the Big bang.https://youtu.be/9l6dM8-GENM?si=wJMEcNSNHA5fJiD5

Also the wiki accepts the Annilargh being almost equivalent to the big bang as there was once a time where it was used to scale the omnitrix reaction speed to MFTL+ by referring to the big bang if i remember correctly.

Aside from thinking it’s faster based on animation, is there any actual confirmation of this?

on top

Coz even the same character can look slow in some scenes and fast in others. Moreover, it’s odd to claim there are differences when they come from the same source.

Moreover, the idea that the same source (the Annilargh) would operate at different speeds is not only plausible but necessary. The nature of creation versus destruction in many cosmologies involves different kinds of energy and intent. Creation, being an act of bringing forth something from nothing, might require a much quicker release of energy—a rapid expansion of the universe akin to the Big Bang. Destruction, on the other hand, can be a more controlled, methodical unraveling, allowing for the decay of complex systems.

Thus, while on the surface it might seem inconsistent, the differences in speed are a reflection of the distinct nature of the actions being performed. The Annilargh's speed when creating the universe is faster, not just because of visual or stylistic choices but because the act of creation, in this context, demands a more instantaneous manifestation of power.

 

[Worthless]

Sorry but I think there's a misconception. The Immeasurable speed rating of Annihilargh literally comes due to traversing accross Hypertimelines. Not due to traversing accross space-times. This should make it crystal clear enough to not leave any doubt.

I'm still not seeing how this makes any difference. As I've said many times, you can still achieve that without necessarily needing Immeasurable Speed. "But, but, but," this is literally fiction, and the number of times they’ve failed to account for such details is innumerable. There are literally many characters out there who can move in a timeless space,, characters moving at light speed despite having mass, a powerful energy having no radiation, and many more. Them creators not including such details is nothing new, and Ben 10 is no exception to this. I still can't comprehend how some of you can boldy claim that the scene where the normal alien reacts to the Annilargh explosion is an outlier, rather than it simply showing that your analysis about its speed is simply wrong..

 

[Hellformer]

I'm still not seeing how this makes any difference. As I've said many times, you can still achieve that without necessarily needing Immeasurable Speed. "But, but, but," this is literally fiction, and the number of times they’ve failed to account for such details is innumerable. There are literally many characters out there who can move in a timeless space,, characters moving at light speed despite having mass, a powerful energy having no radiation, and many more. Them creators not including such details is nothing new, and Ben 10 is no exception to this. I still can't comprehend how some of you can boldy claim that the scene where the normal alien reacts to the Annilargh explosion is an outlier, rather than it simply showing that your analysis about its speed is simply wrong..

Hard strawman argument, I never claimed the Annihilarrgh's energy wave to have immeasurable speed due to timeless void or smth. Please learn to read.

 

[Worthless]

Hard strawman argument, I never claimed the Annihilarrgh's energy wave to have immeasurable speed due to timeless void or smth. Please learn to read.

Context matters you know

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I still can't comprehend how some of you can boldy claim that the scene where the normal alien reacts to the Annilargh explosion is an outlier, rather than it simply showing that your analysis about its speed is simply wrong..

Litterally all of these applies to the normal aliens. Dismissing it for the sake of downscaling is mad

Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.