Issues with Energy Equalization (Staff Only)

[MostPowerfull]

As I always said ... It is remarkable how there are so many double standards and other things, within these things.

I agree 100% with AKM, DDM and cal.

 

[Agnaa]

Regarding examples: HxH, you don't need a higher energy Nen to protect against the effect of Nen. Even weaker Nen users weaker can do so from way stronger from way stronger ne users opponents. AP is not a primary factor. Just Nen is needed to protect Nen Users from hostile nen of anykind if not even the stonger Nen users can died if they are not using their Nen aura to protect themselve from weaker nen users's nen. All Nen can protect against the effect of hostile nen in the verse; it is just one of the many properties of nen. In that case, there no real caveats regarding Nen resistances.

"This ability doesn't work on people of a similar or higher energy" isn't contradicted by "A weaker user resisted a stronger user". To actually contradict it you'd need to show a person with weak energy affect someone with stronger energy, as that proves that it can affect people that are stronger and don't have resistance.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What Agnaa said. If anything it proves there's even more of a caveat and the ability just isn't that good.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just want to add in one small thing to what AKM said before.

If an energy within a verse is giving someone an ability or a resistance, wouldn't that already actually suggest the ability/resistance is limited by energy amounts/AP? Why would it automatically be assumed not to be when its the energy and the amount of it that gives you the ability/resistance in the first place?

Like, if Character A is from a verse where all of the characters who have high enough [insert energy term here] energy get the ability to reality warp with their attacks, and Character B is shown to have even more energy than Character A, why wouldn't Character A's reality warping attacks have a caveat? Why would the attacks be as effective as they would be when attacking weaker opponents?

Not only that, but if its the amount of energy that gives the characters the ability to reality warp with their attacks, then it's even more confusing. How strong do you need to be to actually gain the ability? Does the hax work the same against people who have a greater amount of the same energy you have? These kinds of factors are never taken into consideration when looking at haxes that are granted by energy equivalents.

 

[Wokistan]

Just want to add in one small thing to what AKM said before.

If an energy within a verse is giving someone an ability or a resistance, wouldn't that already actually suggest the ability/resistance is limited by energy amounts/AP? Why would it automatically be assumed not to be when its the energy and the amount of it that gives you the ability/resistance in the first place?

Like, if Character A is from a verse where all of the characters who have high enough [insert energy term here] energy get the ability to reality warp with their attacks, and Character B is shown to have even more energy than Character A, why wouldn't Character A's reality warping attacks have a caveat? Why would the attacks be as effective as they would be when attacking weaker opponents?

This is like implying that I have a caveat because my friend can bench more than I can. The dude is just stronger so he can resist it. A power just for the sake of itself is as much a power as a power a lot of people share for similar reasons.

Also, what of powers that give resistances to just everything, verses where these power systems aren't just a given for everyone? Sword Logic resistances work just fine in warding against the Vex, who don't use that stuff, its not just being superior to other peoples SL powers.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This is like implying that I have a caveat because my friend can bench more than I can. The dude is just stronger so he can resist it. A power just for the sake of itself is as much a power as a power a lot of people share for similar reasons.

But would he resist it? Or would the power just be less effective because it's caveat is that its limited by energy amountage/AP?

The power would only be given to you once your energy reached a certain level, which would mean you need to be strong enough to a point where you get the ability at all. So why wouldnt the ability in and of itself not be AP limited from this already?

 

[Wokistan]

A caveat implies a deficiency on the part of the other individual. I am not being crippled by my friend being stronger than me, they are just stronger than me. The first guy is not affected by the second one being stronger, it is an effect targeting the person actually doing it. I am not being weakened by the fact that I'm not the strongest person i know, my friends aren't all gains goblins sucking away my strength. I could throw a punch just as hard with or without the existence of their extra time in the gym. Their incrwased ability to take Suh a punch is due to their own merits, not some caveat that suddenly applies to me. Their strength overrides mine, I dont get a weakness.

Meet Knight (Destiny). Look at the Taken resistances. This is a literal fodder enemy. Even the weakest Taken gets all that shit and acausal 4 because it's Taken so that makes it really obnoxious for a bunch of races to effect. You don't have to be at any sort of level as a Taken for those, you literally just exist as a Taken and because you're just so physically illegal you resist some things.

Another example which is explicitly not bound by AP is D&D. D&D has some dura neg spells. You can make saves (resistances) based on some stats, which can be improved with leveling up, magic, armor, etc. However, fail a save and the spell will still negate the **** out of your dura no matter how much stronger you are, so yeah. Clearly a resistance.

 

[Agnaa]

Good thing no-one wants to give Sword Logic resistances to every person who fights a Destiny character.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im very certain that all of what you said are false equivalances to the example that I gave before.

Your example is explicitly only talking about physical strength, which doesn't work the same way as an ability having a weakness. You can't apply a caveat in this sense to the amount of strength you possess, either you're stronger than someone or your not. Its not at all the same thing as hax abilities being less effective against stronger opponents. Caveats in this context is referring to the inate weaknesses of the specific abilities and their quality/effectiveness.

The rest of your reply is just using abilities that are explicitly proven to not be bound by AP, which is not the case of what we're discussing here as AKM, Cal and Amexim made clear already.

 

[Wokistan]

Good thing no-one wants to give Sword Logic resistances to every person who fights a Destiny character.

If we've moved past that then I can stop bringing it up

But why would hax be sifferent in this regard? Why would it br a cavrat here and not just the merits of the other when that's how it works for the other main means of offense and the only one with a rral world equivalent? (Durability negation in real life is more complicated.)

 

[Agnaa]

Because the context around it is different. For an analogy...

I say: "This 5-A feat in verse X is an outlier"

You say: "Well, I know a 5-A feat from verse Y that isn't an outlier since there's 4 5-B feats and 6 tier 6 feats."

Sure, the central idea of "5-A feat, outlier or not" is shared between the two, but the surrounding context changes things heavily.

 

[Mand21]

Guys, just one simple question when you're thinking about giving Bleach soul crush which independs on AP: would you be okay with almost any Bleach character passively soulcrushing everyone in the wiki who doesn't have soulhax resist?

Saitama... if souls are always 3D when the body's form is, maybe even Super's Goku. Would you be okay with Othinus dying to this?

Like, I was wondering if appealing to common sense could help.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

But based on the examples you've given (bunch of guys with good stats and little else) the common sense you refer to is an argument from incredulity. Soul hax is soul hax and targets the soul. If you dont have feats or scaling to resist it, GG. A characters physical ability has no reason to affect anothers hax unless explicit pros/cons were stated for either. That would be like saying Goku resists Grandmaster Luke's mindhax because he is physically stronger.

 

[Naeblis495]

Guys, just one simple question when you're thinking about giving Bleach soul crush which independs on AP: would you be okay with almost any Bleach character passively soulcrushing everyone in the wiki who doesn't have soulhax resist?
Saitama... if souls are always 3D when the body's form is, maybe even Super's Goku. Would you be okay with Othinus dying to this?

Like, I was wondering if appealing to common sense could help.

If that is how it work then why not ?

it limit the matches pool but it stay true to how the power system work . Should we remove all passive hax that lead to stomp just for fai-er matches ? that seems completely biased to me .

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The site actually used to restrict passives sometime before last summer afaik but it got changed for what I assume to be more accurate matches, so I am not sure what the issue is here.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think I got some proposals after discussing with AKM sama on his wall:

Credit to AKM:

With his inputs, we come up with this

"Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't gain any additional abilities nor resistances which they don't inherently possess, nor characters would not lose abilities that abilities or resistances possess inherently. However, if an ability's effects are limited by some attribute of the energy of the opponent in-verse i.e magnitude, etc., these limitations would still be applicable in the case of verse equalization.

or, we could just go with improvement to the overall accepted original text.

Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion but no inherent abilities or resistance be obtained or removed from verse equalization. Nonetheless, the limitations of a power system would still be applicable in the case of verse equalization.

What do you guys think?

Improvements are also welcome.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think it makes sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good

 

[Antvasima]

Would somebody be willing to reword the text so it flows better and is easier to understand?

 

[AKM sama]

For the bolded part: (could still be improved)

It is also important to note that characters won't lose/gain any abilities or resistances which they do/don't inherently posses. However, if an ability is limited by some attribute of said energy in-verse (such as magnitude, etc.), those limitations would still be applicable after equalization.

 

[Antvasima]

It flows better, but is regrettably still not very easy to understand, at least not for people who are not well-read regarding the subject.

 

[Naeblis495]

agree , i'm not sure i understand the meaning of the new text .

are we back to : "i have more energy so your energy based hax can't touch me even if i don't resist it in my own verse " ? are AP based verse now invincible to hax from "weaker" characthers ?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

No. The text is pretty clear. It just says in verse caveats of abilities would still apply.

 

[Naeblis495]

ok , here an example .

in a verse i pulled out of my *ss, it is clearly stated/showned that if you have more of their energy power system , you can passively erase people from existence but it is completely useless against anyone as strong or stronger than you because their energy give them enough resistance to erasure to no sell it. . so a clear weakness based on AP/energy ammount .

what would happen if the 3-B god tier of this bullshit verse fought a 3-A from DB for example, with no resistance to existence erasure .

the 3-A have more AP and with verse equal, should no sell the erasure but at the same time , they don't resist erasure baseline . see my point ? would the'y get erased because they don't resist erasure in any form or do they no sell it because the erasure have a weakness to more powerfull energies ?

the 3-A resisting erasure would mean that thank to the energy equal would be given resistance to erasure wich is forbiden but them not resisting would mean that the clear caveat of the passive erasure isn't taken into account .

 

[AKM sama]

That just means the erasure isn't potent enough and fails to work on stronger characters. At that point you don't need resistance when the ability itself is ineffective against you.

 

[Naeblis495]

it i's the energy that give them resistance in this case so equalizing energy would need to give the stronger verse resistance wich is agreed not to in the same text .

 

[AKM sama]

That part means that if an energy system provides a set of abilties and resistances like regen, time stop, resistance to mind manipulation etc etc to all the characters in-verse, it doesn't mean the opponent would also get these abilties by default of having verse equalized.

Your example of more energy = more resistance is more of a kind that the ability has the drawback of not working on characters with a certain amount of energy/AP.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody who has a decent way with words willing to improve on the flow of the text? I am admittedly extremely tired and distracted, so it is harder for me to get enough focus to be certain that I properly understand.

 

[AstralKing7]

I now see the difference in the subject that Akm is talking about

 

[HST_Master]

Personally this seems like a Glass Half Full(Resistance) vs Glass Half Empty(Caveat). It's like if a Character A has a Hax and it doesn't work on a stronger opponent, Character B so one person claims B has a resistance and the other claims that this Hax simply doesn't work on stronger opponents. Is there any definitive proof of either?

 

[Naeblis495]

i disagree with the new text if AP allow you to bypss hax via verse equal if you don't resist that hax baseline .

AP have nothing to do with hax , only resistance count .

 

[Naeblis495]

Personally this seems like a Glass Half Full(Resistance) vs Glass Half Empty(Caveat). It's like if a Character A has a Hax and it doesn't work on a stronger opponent, Character B so one person claims B has a resistance and the other claims that this Hax simply doesn't work on stronger opponents. Is there any definitive proof of either?

if a hax doesn't work on you ,that mean that you have comparable resistance to that hax.

just like if you can clash punch with an opponent without being damaged , that mean you have comparable durability to his AP.

some energies grant resistances comparable to AP/ammount , some energies doesn't , and some resist hax without needing an energy in the first place. All on all , all that matter is that you resist.

as long as verse/energy equal doesn't grant abilities/resistance , the ammount of energy is meaningless to protect against hax .

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

i disagree with the new text if AP allow you to bypss hax via verse equal if you don't resist that hax baseline .
AP have nothing to do with hax , only resistance count .

No, hax can very much so be AP limited as it is the limitation of the hax ability specifically.

 

[Naeblis495]

the hax manipulation can be scaled with AP as in , the more energy you have , the better your hax is , but you can't resist hax just with AP , you need resistance that scale the the manipulation.

a 10-A human can't resist a 10-C death manip user just because the 10-A can punch harder or tank punches better .

 

[Elizhaa]

@Naeblis495, I get what you mean. It just certain form of Hax don't work on characters with Higher AP. For example, in Supernatural, it was stated by some characters that Power Nullification don't work on those stronger than them. It would be the weakness of the Power Nullification, in this case.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

a 10-A human can't resist a 10-C death manip user just because the 10-A can punch harder or tank punches better .

If that is a weakness/condition/caveat/limitation of the hax, then yes that can happen.

With hax, it's not just about resistances, it's about how the hax works. It's a case by case basis.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What C2 said. Plus, "can punch harder or tank punches better" isnt what makes a hax have a caveat. It's having higher energy than the hax user that does.

 

[HST_Master]

What C2 said. Plus, "can punch harder or tank punches better" isnt what makes a hax have a caveat. It's having higher energy than the hax user that does.

Thd problem is this is being tied together. Ap and More energy has been cemented to be tied together by people arguing Half Empty. And it's completely different from when it's specifically stated and when it's not but people reach the same conclusion anyway, heck Anime Hit to this day is still argued whether Goku has resistance against him or is Hit's Time Skip just unable to work on people stronger than him.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

2 wrongs don't make a right. If anything, thats just further bringing another ability in question that also needs to be discussed on whether or not Goku has the actual resistance or Hits ability has an actual caveat.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Without derailing too much, Goku was able to overpower it but Hit adapted again and was able to Time Skip Goku. So, Hit had that caveat but no longer does.