Issues with Energy Equalization (Staff Only)

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"You got hit by my Gonzui, yet your spirit didn't fly away! So even though you didn't make an entrance and hid around, I can tell your spirit is strong!" Says Yammi after slurping up the souls, saying they taste awful because they are so weak and then finding Tatsuki.

I am failing to see why we would decide to assume this is a weaknesses of the technique rather than soul resistance. Gonzui has literally nothing to do with Reiatsu/Spirit Crush, is just a technique to suck souls. A technique that sucked everyone even hundreds of meters away did nothing to Tatsuki, laying down like a couple of meters away.

This would be straight forward literally anywhere else, so I am honestly getting tired trying to find out what's the issue in this case.

And no, that's a bullshit analogy.

Actually, make it a damn weakness for all I care. I couldn't care less anymore in all honesty.

 

[Andytrenom]

Note that while the thread isn't staff exclusive, the Staff only note still signifies that we will be extra strict with comments, and remarks that serve no other purpose than taking shots at a verse, and don't offer anything constructive, I fully intend to remove

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with Andytrenom. If the point are constructive and/or valid, normal users' comment are fine. If the points are not constructive and/or valid and/or being the point of derailing, deletion of the comments will be necessary.

 

[InfiniteSped]

I'm not too sure what to make of this tbh. Some verses do treat resisting stuff as just being more powerful, the problem is determining if they gain resistances or the powers just have a weakness.

For example, in Ergenverse, you get resistance to soul, mind, possession, time, power null, sealing, spatial manip, ice, poison, etc, all just by having a powerful enough Cultivation Base. Some characters do get more resistance to certain things, but a rule of thumb is that hax by weaker people can't really hope to harm the stronger ones. I don't know if, say, a DB character could just resist all that if their Ki is powerful enough as well, some verses won't just necessarily make that distinction.

 

[Naeblis495]

@infinite sped

in your example , f i understood correctly , is that their energy system give them those resistances baseline and the more they have of this energy , the better their resistance become ?

in that case , i don't think DB could resist the same way as Ki don't give resistances to all of that .

 

[Crzer07]

Not sure how many verses with mechanics that comes with all those caveats and conditions. Nardo-style chakra for instance may work on another verse with chakra or similar concept but the conditions of its efficacy is exclusive to the Nardo verse since it all came from the God Tree, so that is a special case there and equalizing the verse applies for some of the time. The Infinity Gauntlet otoh only works in its own verse and may need to always equalize the verse for it to take effect.

 

[Elizhaa]

I will make a better Staff Only clarification since it looks it will be needed.

 

[Antvasima]

@Andy

Thank you for helping out.

@Dzhind

That would make the thread even more chaotic than currently.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree it would be disorganized if not Staff Only. The last few CRTs went of tangent many times.

I added a note in the OP since it looks the application of Staff Only is needed to prevent derailing:

Note:

• This note will be regarding new comments from users. This thread is Staff Only. If you wish to contribute but are not a staff, please send your proposed comment to another staff member, or obtain their permission. I really rather not do this, but a conclusion must be reached, and this process helps the thread stays more organized.

Inputs for improvements is welcome.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm in agreement with the solution.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine Elizhaa.

 

[Elizhaa]

Noted, Antvasima.

 

[Elizhaa]

There are some points above that I found valid like Akm sama's and Amexim's points. I will reply to them later since I will be busy for a while irl.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Ant

Literally anybody can comment in this thread right now,what they are doing.So removing that sign won't change a thing.

And if that comment is actually helpful, then it would be silly to remove just because it wasn't a staff. We allow people to comment when they are genuinely contributing something, that's how these Staff Only threads have always worked, it's not an invitation for people to come in and say whatever they want to, regardless of how important it is for the staff to listen to

 

[Amexim]

Um, one last thing, I guess, before I shut up?

So, In Bleach, you are spiritually aware when you have Higher than average Reiryoku. Reiryoku also seems to determine your strength in the first place. Tatsuki having slightly above average Reiryoku and her being 2nd place in a martial arts tournament (implying that she's stronger than at least SOME humans) do actually support my argument. She doesn't have to be extremely powerful to be stronger than average thanks to Reiryoku, and even then, to have Reiryoku high enough to see ghosts doesn't mean you have to have extremely high Reiryoku, just higher than average, even slightly.

Not just that, but Lance proves my point as well, even if soul succ is soul Manip, Reiatsu Crush, Which is literally based on your Reiatsu or your Spiritual AP, is easier to categorize as a mechanic of the Spiritual Energy in Bleach than it is to attribute these things to Soul Manip.

You might be able to substantiate a connection between Spirit AP/Reiryoku, and Soul Resistance through Tatsuki not being destroyed, though the difficulty is still there, and I think you want to avoid that concept, lest you demonstrate that AP = Hax in Bleach and make the difference between being strong enough to resist an affect and having a resistance on your profile indistinguishable or negligible. This is because, aside from characters that are exemptions to the rule, like Quincies or Orihime, it's impossible to know if the reason why Reiatsu Crush won't work on other opponents in Bleach is because of resistance or because of a lack of strength. You can't tell one from the other, and saying they're the same thing only opens the door for us to treat that AP requirement as a weakness of the power, because not only is it as close to what the verse represents as possible, but to treat it as just hax divorced from AP would be a blatant mid characterization of the phenomena.

You might be able to substantiate a correlation between Spirit AP/Reiryoku and Soul Hax, by interpreting some statements in a literal way and ignoring the implications and overall demonstration of the affects of Reiatsu Crush and what they're based off of. Which is, "It crushes those with Rei energy weaker than yours and doesn't work on those stronger." Again, considering this is AP based and a Spiritual Verse, where Souls fight other souls, saying someone has a weak or strong soul is like saying someone has a weak or strong body— that doesn't mean there's resistances to shit just because they are strong. Using Staark's Statements and ignoring the explained mechanics of Reiatsu and acting as if him destroying everything around him with his powerful Reiatsu is Soul Manipulation rather than then just dying to Reiatsu Crush AP bs— instead taking the esoteric route and saying that he's destroying their spiritual cores and shit because he said they had "weak souls"— despite the fact that he talked about his strong soul and implicitly means Reiryoku and spirit AP rather than a unique hax he has— we might as well give Kenpachi and everyone in Bleach attack reflection— considering Ichigo got hurt by hitting Kenpachi because he was weaker— I mean because Kenpachi has this Uber unique hax that has nothing to do with AP and is totally Soul Manip and Attack Reflection.

You have to argue these points somewhat, while we know for sure, regardless of what you say, AP is extremely involved if not the source of the Reiatsu Crush phenomena. But that's not just the issue, Bleach.

The point is, rules and verse mechanics that are crucial to the functions of powers— completely, including their caveats, should be applied. Let's say character X vs Character Y is a matchup where character Y has an ability that thanos snaps anyone who isn't strong willed against his mind Manip. Character X has no mind manipulation resistance. Because in Character Y's verse, characters who have strong wills can't be mind haxed because of that willpower caveat, character x is unable to be attacked mentally, because he doesn't give up on his friends or something. That's a weakness of the power and of the verse mechanic.

 

[Elizhaa]

@AKM sama, I think the DB's ki resistance is bad analogy because we don't really if work. It is pretty much an infer cases. We don't even scale the resistance to ki in Dragon Ball. I like Dragon Ball and I am extremily familiar the series/mythologies but there literally no inverse explaination that Ki can give resistance for scaling.

Bleach have other form soul manipulation and resistance like from Hollows who absorbs souls, Quincies who can destroy soul, Shinigimi who can BFR souls, Shinigimi can attacks souls. There have discusssion extensively in the past by supporters and knowledgable of verse who agree the resistance to soul manipulation from accepted CRT. Equating every instance of soul manipulation to just an AP system would be disingenuous.

Lancelot did accuratly describe what really happen here about the Soul sucking:

I am failing to see why we would decide to assume this is a weaknesses of the technique rather than soul resistance. Gonzui has literally nothing to do with Reiatsu/Spirit Crush, is just a technique to suck souls. A technique that sucked everyone even hundreds of meters away did nothing to Tatsuki, laying down like a couple of meters away.

 

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, the way I see caviats and verse weakness, they should be explained on profiles because there are a lot of bad interpretations I see threads or being spoken to about by people not familiar with the concepts.

There are already profiles that explained certain abilities on profiles do not work on stronger or comparable opponents. So, I think having CRT to add weakness is the best way to solve those issues.

 

[AKM sama]

I never talked about every instance of soul manipulation in Bleach. Cal and I were specifically talking about reiatsu which is the spiritual pressure generated by having a difference in spiritual energy. That's literally how it works. Take out that difference in energy and there is no pressure, hence it doesn't work on opponents equal or stronger than the user. Soldier Blue also agrees with this.

I also never talked about every instance of hax in DB. But some like time stop and existence erasure are directly attributed to the amount of ki difference between characters and there is even more evidence for it. With literally the exact same logic as Bleach. Yet Bleach gets special treatment which has made us a laughingstock over the internet.

The point is, characters would still get resistance to a hax if they resist it irrespective of whether they resist it by being different or by having a large amount of energy. But if it's the latter, it would apply to matches since it is the attribute of the hax that it doesn't work on people with high energy levels. Nobody would gain any resistance in matches, it's just that the ability would be ineffective because of its own limitations.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Reiatsu isn't the spiritual pressure generated by having a difference in spiritual energy. So no, that's not how it works.

Take out the difference in Reiryoku and it may work or may not, it depends on the characters' Reiryoku and if it has decent soul resistance.

Using Soldier Blue's words aren't wise when he's agreed he doesn't know Bleach as well as I do while I'm arguing against your stance.

You also seem to have a large misunderstanding of Reiatsu and Reiryoku since you still seem to think Reiatsu is the energy that gets equalized. It's not, Reiatsu isn't an energy, Reiryoku is and Reiryoku is what is equalized. The properties of Reiryoku differ on the characters. Yamamoto's Reiryoku has a fire aspect and his Reiatsu can appear visibly as fire. Toshiro is the same but with ice and cold. Characters have different qualities of Reiryoku that grant different abilities or resistances. Orihime has AP similar to fodder hollows (you can say they have similar Reiryoku then), Starrk's Reiryoku was incredibly high due to his strong soul, his Reiatsu was even killing the souls of nearby fodder hollows, yet Orihime was fine in his presence.

The amount of Reiryoku you have doesn't mean much in terms of resisting Reiatsu Crush, it's on the quality of your Reiryoku and it's resistance.

Stop spreading misinformation for a verse you're not knowledgeable please.

 

[The_Calaca]

Isn't out there a thread where it was discussed that Reiatsu =/= AP?

 

[Elizhaa]

Isn't out there a thread where it was discussed that Reiatsu =/= AP?

Yeah, the last few verse equalization thread shows it wasn't.

 

[Elizhaa]

AKM sama, the line separted by that dash wasn't mean for you but for people who conflated the bleach soul manipulation and resistance to soul manipulation system.

The way is see DB's AP = Hax resistance was always like a bad analogy so it think it would wrong to just pick a few hax when other situation in the verse prove this point is wrong. I mean AP give Hax resistance already fail where Majin Buu still absorb Mystic Gohan, Vegito who are stronger. As a knowledgeable members who virtually follow all media of the verse, I disagree with AP = Hax resistance unless there is a like in-verse statement that clarify it exist.

Bleach doesn't get any special treatment either; DB system fail. @IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 also did make some good points in his reply.

 

[Elizhaa]

I have being busy for a while but I can updated the vote. AKM sama, I will can put vite in the a disagree section or another section.

 

[AKM sama]

No, I don't have any misunderstanding about reiatsu and reiryoku. I don't know what gave you that idea. Plus, Soldier Blue is one of the most rational, reliable, unbiased and trustworthy person here so excuse me for using his word on the topic on which he is sufficiently knowledgeable. And if it's your word against his, I'll side with him for reasons that I hope you may understand.

That Orihime instance is already addressed by Amexim. There can be exceptions to norms, doesn't mean the established norms will be turned upside down.

@Elizhaa Again, I never said the principle applies to all resistances. I only mentioned those specific resistances which are quite clearly shown to work like that, so I don't know what to make of your comment as it isn't in conjunction with mine.

 

[Elizhaa]

You guys completely missed my point. I said characters should not get resistances. All I said is that if, say, genjutsu is allowed to work on someone that doesn't have chakra due to their energies being equalized, then the caveat of genjutsu (if any) would also apply because of the same logic.
You can't just cherry pick and say this ability works due to energy being equalized but the caveat is not applicable because they have different names even when they are similar. If you're making the energies capable of interacting with each other, then you'll have to do it for both the effects and limitations of said ability.

Let's just say, I see your point now. I just think your DB's analogy and your Bleach's explanations were incorrect as aknowledgeable members of both verse. But, I think we shared similar views overall. I think we can agree and if you want I can change your vote to agreement if you wish, @AKM sama.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

All I see is talk about norms and standards and exceptions. Why is it an exception? Why can you actually say that? Where's your proof? Where's the logic? Where's anything to substantiate this beyond "this sounds similar to a case we don't allow"?

Let me tell you some cases. Urahara, Isshin, Yoruishi and Gin are not even close to comparable Chrysalis Aizen in Reiyoku, not even the one that is fully out of the Chrysalis, they don't get Soul Crushed into uselessness. Yamamato can one shot people on Ukitake's level, who has rather frail health and also less Reiyoku than him, Ukitake doesn't get crushed. Quincies are laughably below any Captain in Reiyoku and they don't get crushed.

All am I seeing is a nice sounding reason why you disagree, but no actual knowledge of anything backing the actual series, not from Amexim either. By all means **** the internet, we've had enough revisions with knowledgeable and not knowledgeable people about all of this bullshit topic and guess what, that was the conclusion reached. And it's downright frustrating that after all that, and those discussions being perfectly existing in some thread, I get to hear such a reason to disagree. This shit has been joked about enough times in the general discussion thread, so lo and behold it happens again. It's honest to God nonsense. If it's so impossibly hard to reconciliate, then add the damn weakness and be done with it, because this keeps getting brought up like it wasn't the uptenth time already.

 

[Elizhaa]

LSirLancelotDuLacl, I think the tone was a bit up there, to be honest. The ways I see if if there is such confusion about reiyoku and reiatsu then people should ask explanations in the Bleach Discussion Thread (I could even chime in with some links) or make a Bleach CRT first to decided if there a weakness rather make a SBA weakness out of nowhere. Based on the extensive discussions in the past, I think the same conclusion reached will happen, from my prediction.

In any case, I think we should move towards the final phase of the thread and decided on the conclusion then just talking about Bleach a lot for like the 3rd CRT

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Characters will be able to use their powers againts each other and interact with each other and if the sistem is siminlar then you equalize the sistem but give no powers or resistances that characters did not have to begging with, if that is what it is being argue here then i will say yes i agree (tho i dont know if my vote counts as i am no staff member sorry if this was for nothing in such case)

 

[Elizhaa]

I will count valid votes point so I counted your votes, @TOAAPRESENCE1.

 

[AKM sama]

@Lancelot That tone won't help at all. If I wanted that kind of response I would have started out with something like this - the fact that this thing is being forced here so hard is asinine. It would have literally been laughed at any other year or in any other community. Not to mention, wherever I go, the wiki has already become a laughingstock due to this headcanon of a few people.

I was on the last 5 threads involving this debate and it was painful to see how such a simple thing never reached a conclusion even though the majority of people and admins were on the same page. Characters with enough reiatsu of their own can resist reiatsu crush effects, even if they are weaker than the enemy whose reiatsu they are trying to resist - so long as the gap isn't massive. But if the enemy has multiple times the reiryoku and reiatsu, resisting becomes difficult. Reiatsu crush is negged in-verse by simply being on a higher level of spiritual strength. It doesn't work on anyone having higher reiryoku/spiritual strength/AP. That's how the power works. It is quite evident that the efficiency of this ability is directly dependent on the spiritual energy level / reiryoku level / AP. It doesn't mean a much weaker character can't have innate resistance to it. Which makes it an exception that goes against the established norm.

It is the caveat of the ability that it's not potent enough to be working on people with a higher power level. Not the other way around. And just because you can't tell the caveat from actual resistance doesn't mean you can disguise the limitation of the ability by making a headcanon and adding a whole another spin to it. Till now I haven't seen any accepted CRT with scans backing up this headcanon, and most people including extremely knowledgeable and trusted people and staff disagree with that line of thought (except a select few).

Energy equalization just means that

A supernatural energy that almost everyone in a verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Which basically means Chakra, Ki, Reiryoku, Nen, etc are all able to interact with each other and treated the same way under the umbrella term "energy". That doesn't mean characters would gain abilities or resistances which they don't inherently posses. But it means that if an ability has a caveat of not working on characters due to some attribute of energy X (such as having a fixed amount of X), and the energy Y is similar to it, that caveat would still hold.

For eg: If an ability can be rendered useless by having a higher Nen(energy) aura around you in HxH, it would also be rendered useless by having a higher Chakra(energy) aura. If an ability doesn't work on people having higher spiritual energy in Bleach, it wouldn't work on people having higher energy in another verse having similar type of energy, because both energies are able to interact with each other and because of the limitation of the ability in question.

We're reaching a point where a few selected people are arguing around the extremely flawed logic of "this ability is only resisted by characters with higher ki, so it can't be resisted by characters from another verse having higher energy level because ki is different" or "this character resisted normal or magic fire, but my character has ki based fire so the opponent gets burned".

EDIT: I apologize for the wall of text. That was two comments worth of material.

 

[AKM sama]

The short of it is, afaik most people disagree with the notion of energy equalization granting abilities and resistances that chatacters don't inherently posses. The discussion was always about certain in-verse abilities, their caveats and how they cherrypick from energy equalization.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM seems to make sense.

 

[Elizhaa]

Regarding examples: HxH, you don't need a higher energy Nen to protect against the effect of Nen. Even weaker Nen users weaker can do so from way stronger from way stronger ne users opponents. AP is not a primary factor. Just Nen is needed to protect Nen Users from hostile nen of anykind if not even the stonger Nen users can died if they are not using their Nen aura to protect themselve from weaker nen users's nen. All Nen can protect against the effect of hostile nen in the verse; it is just one of the many properties of nen. In that case, there no real caveats regarding Nen resistances.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I also 100% disagree with Reiatsu Crush. I agree with AKM, Cal, DDM, Soldier Blue, etc.

Applying Reiatsu Crush is no different than applying Nen stuff or Genjutsu stuff or lol, "Only Stands can harm other Stands" and stuff like that.

 

[AKM sama]

Btw removing comments from non-staff which don't contribute to the thread in the least.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While I have literally no opinion or interest in Reiatsu Crush.

I though we simply agreed that while we do equalize energies, we just don't grant any special abilities or resistances to those who normally wouldn't have them.

 

[HrishikeshM]

wait can i say something......you can delete my comment but are non staff allowed to vote in staff thread? because i see there vote is counted......and if it is the case then i also disagree with gainging abilities and resistance by energy equalisation

but i also disagree with 'only stand users can harm other stands' and stuff like that.....that is excuse me utter nonsence.....first time hearing about rieatsu crust honestly nobody mentioned that in my facebook debate group

 

[The_Calaca]

Stands can be affected by people with NPI, and it has been like this since a while AFAIK. You don't need to be a Stand user in the site to have the ability to touch a Stand, as you don't need Reiatsu to resist the Crush. You just need a strong enough resistance.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Amexim hasn't debunked anything regarding Orihime and friends, the main argument here seems to be denial. And no offence I see you mentioned that people are laughing at the wiki because of reiatsu? but they've always been laughing at you guys about anything really. Also there is no such thing as higher energy > hax in Bleach. Ichigo literally debunks this.

 

[Sera_EX]

While I have literally no opinion or interest in Reiatsu Crush.

I though we simply agreed that while we do equalize energies, we just don't grant any special abilities or resistances to those who normally wouldn't have them.

^This