Issue with Energy Equalization

[The_real_cal_howard]

Reopened this to say something.

Didn't read all of this, but what I did read makes me think we're eventually gonna reach a point where we're gonna say "oh, this character can't absorb fire because he never absorbed ki based fire" or some bs like that. Because given everyone's viewpoints here, that's the direction we're headed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Still, im nuking this thread again.

Because this has been yet agai a horrible idea I chose to go with that has ultimately lead to nothing and that it was a mistake. So im nuking it away.

 

[RatherClueless]

Hold up, so someone fighting a JoJos character will get a stand and someone fighting a HxH character will get Nen abilities!?

Dont we verse equalize to make sure that the characters can use all of their abilities they can use within their verse, rather than to buff whatever character has the "weaker" energy?

In the case of Bleach and Naruto this would mean:

Naruto Character gets: Can see/interact with spirits, resistance to soul manip, passive soul crush, (maybe some other stuff I cant think of) -> Immune to a lot of advantages the bleach character had

Bleach Character gets: Chakra Natures? I think thats it. -> Vulnerable to things like Genjutsu

This is incredibly unfair and takes away from the point why there even is equalization, to make the fight equal in a sense of "my stuff works, but yours also does".

Not sure if anyone else already said all of this, since I didnt rly read through the entire thread.

So yeah, I highly disagree.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm...gonna use admin privileges here, sorry. I'm not letting this thread close until I'm satisfied with the response I get.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ant I unlocked this for a reason lol...

 

[Andytrenom]

I believe Cal should be demoted for publicly rebelling against Ant

 

[RatherClueless]

Sooo... Is this back again?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The idea that people would get new powers via energy equalization is a strawman fallacy. Even discounting it, not everyone who has ki in DB can fly or shoot energy beams. And ki being = nen doesn't mean ki can perform innate Nen abilities. Seriously, we're starting to sound worse than Death Battle with these caveats, and I wouldn't be surprised if we said Ganon can only be defeated by weapons similar to the Master Sword/Silver Arrows, because you guys are using all those classic arguments like "only Stand Users can beat Stands" "Only Nen Users can survive Nen Baptism" and of course, "Reiatsu Crush."

Don't get it twisted, this ain't Bleach specific. Tbh I feel like even The Force falls into this category, and taking Goku for example, while I'd be remiss to say he can do shit like mindhax or Force Lightning, I fully believe via equalization he'd have an affinity for it as Force is quite similar to ki.

 

[Wokistan]

It isn't a strawman because that's what kukui was suggesting to do.

@Wokistan If those are given just by having the energy as you say it is, then yeah I do believe the energy being made equal with it should give the character possessing it the abilities as well to be perfectly honest.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Well it's not what I'm suggesting anyway lol...

 

[Andytrenom]

Are you even suggesting anything that people are arguing against tho?

 

[Antoniofer]

WHat is even being discussed now? Are we counting who are against or at favor to unequalize forces?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes. I'm saying we drop the whole pretense that these verse specific powers have no equivalent in another setting despite it being a very similar concept and so we don't get shit like Nen Baptism GG, because at this rate we're gonna devolve into the two examples I said above. "Oh, he absorbs fire but not ki fire or magic fire so he still gets burned." and "Ganon can only be defeated by holy weapons." All of them are NLFs that rely on something intrinsic to the verse despite things existing similarly in others. Nen, Chakra, Yoki, Reiatsu, etc. are all clearly based on DB's ki. That's something you can't deny. And despite them all clearly being based around one another, someone can say on this site "Well ki isn't a one-to-one equal to Nen so UI Goku still gets ****** by Gon because Nen baptism gg."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm in agreement with Cal. And obviously we aren't giving everyone form all these verses the same abilities. But rather, just the concept of energy is still energy. And certain verses literally have been getting special treatment with certain abilities being; "It's a passive attack that negates durability and only way to resist it is to have an equal to or stronger source". Instead, it's still a passive attack common in said verse, but it's not durability negation unless there's an explanation. And even if it was, there are ways to resist it outside of the verse.

 

[Andytrenom]

I guess you really didn't read the thread all that well, or maybe I'm just focusing too much on the staff comments

 

[Heavens_Feel]

What the heck is even going on anymore.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Andy. I...said in my first comment that I didn't read through all of this.

 

[AKM sama]

Cal makes sense here.

 

[Antoniofer]

Still seems kinda lazy to me. Isn't like the energy isn't incompatible, is just that people do not analyze the nature of the power.

Character may use Chi to control and generate fire, in that case any type of heat/thermal apsorption would work. However, the absorption in theory shouldn't work with esoteric fire (like Hellfire), but all depends of how both powers works, and it up to the debators to explain it.

Also, not all verses have a single source of power, Saint Seiya seems to be an example, are from the Quintessence (Cosmo) they also generate Mana and Life-Force. One can't simply equalize Chi with Quintessence as the last one already cover Chi.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not every source of energy is equivalent. Cosmos clearly isn't in the same boat as the ones I named above, let alone Sword Logic or Phenomenon Intervention.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Cal Me, Dargoo, Agnaa and likely several others all pointed out that allowing interactions between different energies isn't a problem

The main thing people disagreed on was the addition of new abilities due to equalization

 

[Heavens_Feel]

^Which is why i'm so confused on what's even being discussed right now..

 

[RatherClueless]

"Oh, he absorbs fire but not ki fire or magic fire so he still gets burned."

If in your example "ki fire" or "magic fire" have been shown to have different properties, like the god sayer magic used by Zancrow, then no, you shouldnt be able to absorb it "coz lol I absorb normal fire"

"Ganon can only be defeated by holy weapons."

I guess that I can agree that the description does not need to be "holy", but it still needs to be a special type of weapon meant to slay similar beings.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Andy. It clearly is a problem though given the special treatment Bleach HxH and to a lesser extent JJBA is getting. Nen Baptism is a concept on this site now, something that would've been laughed at in any previous year on any other site. And this is despite the fact that the similar energy source should stop that, but because as I said before, it's not exactly one-to-one, someone like Goku, despite having what is essentially the progenitor to Nen, or Yusuke, who has the energy that Murata used as a steppingstone for Nen, gets baptized despite that.

 

[Elizhaa]

I want to say Nen and Reiatsu are not really closed to be though to Ki even if they were inspired from it. I think Goku should not be to resist Nen's Hax or Reiatsu crush unless he has the specific resistances.

I am fine for equalizing the energy source but it does not mean should the extra resistances or abilities not on their profiles; not doing so trivialized the profiles indexing system.

 

[Antoniofer]

This type of problems only happens in one-shot or bad written verses, generally they got how they forces works. Chi somehow grants power over metaphysics then I hope you got a heck of reason for that, cuz controlling the material essence of the living shouldn't grants that. Now that led to the next question, just because the verse call it Chi, or Magic doesn't mean it possesses it same capabilities, it could simply means a name, if they qualify as Chi or Magic depends of how the verse explain it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

How on Earth is Bleach getting special treatment in battle? You either resist or you don't just like every power on the wiki.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because every power on the wiki ain't reliant on a concept that's very present in many other series. If my verse says that you'll be turned inside out and forced to do the hula for eternity unless you have Cal Power when you're in front of a Cal Power User, and Cal Power is just ki under a different name, then obviously I'd expect a ki user to be able to not fall there.

Refer to my first example. Either you resist this specific type of verse specific fire or you don't. You can absorb conceptual based fire that erases you from existence? Cool, but it's not magic fire so gg.

 

[AstralKing7]

I agree with cal. Literally this nen ability was never used before and was disagreed with.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Completely agree with Cal.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

None of those examples apply to the verse though. It isn't treated like that at all. For example it would be like me saying no one can absorb reishi infused elements unless they can do it in their own verse. That's about it really which no one does ever since there would be no point in verse equalization if the powers can't interact.

 

[RatherClueless]

Because every power on the wiki ain't reliant on a concept that's very present in many other series. If my verse says that you'll be turned inside out and forced to do the hula for eternity unless you have Cal Power when you're in front of a Cal Power User, and Cal Power is just ki under a different name, then obviously I'd expect a ki user to be able to not fall there. Refer to my first example.

I am sorry but no. You would need a resistance to the ability "Cal Power" is using to make you do the hula, like mind manip, rather than having "some sort of energy, thats kind of similar", especially in your example with ki its a big nono.

 

[Jvando]

Cal is basically saying what I was trying to ask except phrased much better : /

Two nearly identical energies from two separate verse are made to clash. In one verse that energy has a little extra something-something that only affects those without that energy in that specific verse. Shouldn't that effect be null in verse equalization if the energies from both verses are essentially the same?

 

[Elizhaa]

How on Earth is Bleach getting special treatment in battle? You either resist or you don't just like every power on the wiki.

From my view, it is not Bleach that is getting the special treatment but others verses like Naruto from Chakra as some match equalized Chakra to Reiatsu which give Naruto's characters to resistance to Soul Manipulation to the crush and Reiatsu's abilties like Extrasensory Perception to Bleach's Invisible Souls.

This system look abused when here when little to no Naruto characters have these abilties from standard chakra's control.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's very similar to the extreme examples I'm using. I'm avoiding using Bleach for my examples because I don't want this thread to be like it's specifically targeting that, so I'll use JJBA and stands.

The way we currently treat it, only if you're a Stand User or you can see invisible things can you see Stands. How it should be is because Stands are a manifestation of fighting spirit, anyone who can see that shiz should be able to see Stands. Even Death Battle got this right.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

No because if you don't have resistance in the 1st place you'll still get affected. Being similar doesn't matter at all in this scenario. It's essentially doing what everyone has been mostly arguing against so far which is giving people abilities and resistances they don't have because this energy gives them at the power and the other doesn't.

 

[Elizhaa]

Cal is basically saying what I was trying to ask except phrased much better : /
Two nearly identical energies from two separate verse are made to clash. In one verse that energy has a little extra something-something that only affects those without that energy in that specific verse. Shouldn't that effect be null in verse equalization if the energies from both verses are essentially the same?

In my view, no extra abilities/resistances should be lost from Verse Equalization and no abilities/resistances should be gained to from it too.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, but that is not exactly equalizing, you known the basic principle behind stands is you apply it in battle. That is exactly what I'm try to say, you do not equalize, just analyze how the power works, equalizing speed is not even necessary most of the time.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

From what I know about Stands you can see them in every vs battle if you have extrasensory perception that allows you to see invisible beings which is how it should be unless I'm missing something.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

People are confusing resistances with caveats of an ability. That's something I've noticed on this site. We attribute weaknesses as the receiver having a resistance. It's not that Nen users resist Nen Baptism, it's that Nen Baptism has the caveat of not working on Nen users. So out Goku against Gon, and it's not that Goku resists the abilities because verse equalization, it's that because of the caveat, verse equalization has it not work on Goku because ki=Nen.