Issue with Energy Equalization

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

All humans in Naruto have Chakra, Naruto told this to Kawaki in Boruto. Animals have Chakra too, we've seen dogs, snakes and frogs have Chakra.

Even trees in Narutocan have Chakra, Kakashi pointed this out to Naruto when Naruto was training to create the Rasenshuriken.

There are even metals that can have Chakra.

However, the only things most Genjutsu can affect are things that have Chakra in their cranial nerves. This is because of a unique biology that exists only in Naruto, the Chakra Network System, which flows throughout the body delivering Chakra throughout it and does not exist in pretty much other works of fiction. There aren't verses that have a unique network system that goes through their body delivering energy (which is also their life force since they die if they run out of Chakra).

A lot of people believe it is similar to the human respiratory system, but that's wrong since this system literally wraps around the organs throughout the body like strings. It even has 361 nodes throughout it.

 

[Antoniofer]

I think it store chakra in an object doesn't mean than that type of object have innately chakra. The chakra respiratory system would be rarely a problem, as no other verse have soething like that; despite that addition of circulatory system, the essence of chakra's meaning is still the same. In fact, Ty Lee can do pretty much what the Hyouga clan can do in naruto, they block the flow of chakra/chi.

 

[Xerkser500]

Good lord what has this thread turned into....

Well IDK where this has gone to anymore, so imma just say that I agree with Cal's points that verse specific powers should be thrown out.

 

[Elizhaa]

Good lord what has this thread turned into....
Well IDK where this has gone to anymore, so imma just say that I agree with Cal's points that verse specific powers should be thrown out.

I disagreed that verse specific powers should be throwned out as it basically limits a character's powers in threads. Like Dragon said just equalized the energy interaction without adding or removing abilities/resistances is the way standard battle assumption should works as otherwise fights become inaccurate with characters becoming superpower or neuter characuture in vs threads.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Well, the anime is non-canon and that arc specifically is filler and "Sage Chakra" is just Chakra mixed with Nature Energy.

I've been told it was stated to be canon, tho I don't know where that statment came from


I also agree this has gotten fairly far off topic, it started when i and some others asked situational questions and then debates started over the answers

 

[Omimi]

do u guys not know what No Limits Fallacy (NLF) is?

example from naruto

if i say this in VSB that

itachi can mind minip anyone who don't have sharingan (even if u are resistance to mind minip in naruto verse u still get mind minip by Tsukuyomi)

then i am sure people are gonna start to call out NLF

cuz no one outside naruto has sharingan

so how come Reiatsu Crush dont fall under NLF yet

even thou they are saying its kill anyone who don't have spiritual energy

if this dont fall under NLF then i sure itachi mind minip everyone and its dont fall under NLF either

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

"even thou they are saying its kill anyone who don't have spiritual energy"

No one ever said this smh, resistance to soul manipulation counters soul manipulation.

How many times must this be repeated?

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Please let this be closed. There is nothing left to be done here.

 

[Xerkser500]

Not yet. I still want to see if Cals gonna contribute more to this or not since his earlier arguments didn't exactly get concluded.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

The main problem I see is that stuff like Nen Baptism and Reiatsu Crush are both negged in-verse by simply being on a similar level of Nen/spiritual strength as one another. Like, it's only been an effective tactic on those who are already considered fodder by whatever big bad is throwing their energy-dick's weight around. If we want to equalize reiatsu/nen to ki/chakra/chi, wouldn't that caveat apply, particularly given that matches normally take place within the same tier?

Like, obviously I don't think that, say, Goku on a similar tier to Yammy would resist Yammy's soul suck, but he wouldn't just get "lol ur crush'd xD" via reiatsu, due to their similar tier. It isn't granting anyone any resistances, it's just a detriment to nen/reiatsu that those passive abilities get insta-null'd by a similar tier. (Besides, only Aizen ever demonstrated reiatsu so great that it could disintegrate someone that drew too close to him.)

Whereas with, say, Nihilus, his passive abilities aren't a double standard, in that he's a smurf and can affect entities much greater than him in AP/potency with his abilities.

 

[YungManzi]

@TFO

Why would that be non-canon? It doesn't contradict anything and it shows a clear backstory for important characters.

Edit:

Never mind, the canonicity of that should be discussed on another thread.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The main issue I have with things like the Nen Baptism and Reiatsu Crush, on the other side, is that it is still granting the equalized energy properties that it does not have for literally no reason. Likewise, the mechanics of those and what makes it less or more effective is an in-verse thing. Nen doused in killing intent can outright kill normal people even if your killing intent isn't too hard, but we'd assume that a similarity of tier would change this without the requisite resistance? We end up with the equalized energy not having the "can kill when doused with killing intent" quality, but having the resistent quality. And I just have to ask why would anyone ever do this?

The only exceptions that come to mind is when the specific mechanics of the energy in question allow something like that due to some explanation of how they work allowing this, or some interaction between different energies in the very same verse that could make us decide to treat how it'd interact with different energies besides the usual assumptions.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes! Stoned Orc did a good job in reiterating my point so I can get beck on topic. Thanks. Unironically thank you for that.

 

[Elizhaa]

The main issue I have with things like the Nen Baptism and Reiatsu Crush, on the other side, is that it is still granting the equalized energy properties that it does not have for literally no reason. Likewise, the mechanics of those and what makes it less or more effective is an in-verse thing. Nen doused in killing intent can outright kill normal people even if your killing intent isn't too hard, but we'd assume that a similarity of tier would change this without the requisite resistance? We end up with the equalized energy not having the "can kill when doused with killing intent" quality, but having the resistent quality. And I just have to ask why would anyone ever do this?
The only exceptions that come to mind is when the specific mechanics of the energy in question allow something like that due to some explanation of how they work allowing this, or some interaction between different energies in the very same verse that could make us decide to treat how it'd interact with different energies besides the usual assumptions.

Yeah, they are equalized energy properties. I think as Dragon said we should only equalized the energy interaction not the energy properties as otherwise you basically give or removed abilties/resistance in vs thread.

 

[Xerkser500]

The main issue I have with things like the Nen Baptism and Reiatsu Crush, on the other side, is that it is still granting the equalized energy properties that it does not have for literally no reason. Likewise, the mechanics of those and what makes it less or more effective is an in-verse thing.

No, it's not. Like it was said before, it isnt that the opposing energy is getting a boost. The equalized energy isnt being granted anything. It's that the energy with the ability (Nen/Reiatsu) is getting a weakness, a very reasonable weakness at that.

 

[RatherClueless]

No, it's not. Like it was said before, it isnt that the opposing energy is getting a boost. The equalized energy isnt being granted anything. It's that the energy with the ability (Nen/Reiatsu) is getting a weakness, a very reasonable weakness at that.

Nerfing party A is indirectly buffing party B. It doesnt make a difference how you want to describe it, nor is it justified to say "because some of your abilities derive from an energy its fine to give you a weakness". Even though I disagree with it being aweakness, rather than just a buff for the other party. Getting immunity is not nerfing your opponent, its getting an ability you didnt have. Its a buff.

 

[Elizhaa]

The main issue I have with things like the Nen Baptism and Reiatsu Crush, on the other side, is that it is still granting the equalized energy properties that it does not have for literally no reason. Likewise, the mechanics of those and what makes it less or more effective is an in-verse thing.

No, it's not. Like it was said before, it isnt that the opposing energy is getting a boost. The equalized energy isnt being granted anything. It's that the energy with the ability (Nen/Reiatsu) is getting a weakness, a very reasonable weakness at that.

You can't grant a weakness to energy source that does not exist in-verse.

The only reason why those with above average Reiatsu can resist soul manipulation is because Reiatsu grant soul resistance. Same as nen, the only reasons why Nen users can resists nen effect is because Nen Control grants protection towards those effects.

So, if characters doen't resists haxes with energy interaction equalized then tough luck they will likely get stomp.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Elizhaa

Can we discuss Energies that are portrayed in comparable ways? Yesterday I brought up some personal concerns about passive abilities like Reiatsu Crush. Cal and Stone Orc already explained how it works and what's necessary to resist it (And so did I on your page).

If an energy is shown being Spiritual like Bleach and is comparable, given we're not equalizing Energies but only allowing interaction between them, why would abilities like Reiatsu Crush still be applicable if the opposing Verse already has a Similar Energy to what's in bleach?

Bleach's own mechanics in verse prevent people with near or equal spiritual power from being Reiatsu Crushed. Are we going to ignore that? Because your response from last night definitely implies yes, we will ignore that.

And before all the Bleach Supporters pile up on me, don't take it personal, it's not just Bleach. My question is, if a verse has built in mechanics like Bleach that prevents these passive abilities, if another verse is comparable enough energy wise, why wouldn't those mechanics be applied? That makes no sense. You're not granting the other character from another verse "Resistance" in this case, it's just the effects are inapplicable when you have 2 comparable entities with comparable Spiritual Energy.

 

[Elizhaa]

@TheFinalOrder, it is not that I am ignoring anything about the mechanism, it just if characters don't the resistance to Soul Manipulation on their profiles then shouldn't get in any shape or form from verse equalization. Like Wokistan and Dragon said, don't mix the verse abilties mechanics with each other when equalizing energy source interaction.

 

[Xerkser500]

Nerfing party A is indirectly buffing party B. It doesnt make a difference how you want to describe it, nor is it justified to say "because some of your abilities derive from an energy its fine to give you a weakness". Even though I disagree with it being aweakness, rather than just a buff for the other party. Getting immunity is not nerfing your opponent, its getting an ability you didnt have. Its a buff.

If you want to call it "indirectly doing x", thats up to you. Doesnt change the fact that you're saying is still flawed.

You can't just remove the caveats of an energy source and keep the boons when making the energy source interact with another.

 

[Omimi]

"even thou they are saying its kill anyone who don't have spiritual energy"
No one ever said this smh, resistance to soul manipulation counters soul manipulation.

How many times must this be repeated?

not talking about fans opinion

i am talking about manga statement

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@TheFinalOrder, it is not that I am ignoring anything about the mechanism, it just if characters don't the resistance to Soul Manipulation on their profiles then shouldn't get in any shape or form from verse equalization. Like Wokistan and Dragon said, don't mix the verse abilties mechanics with each other when equalizing energy source interaction.

That's the issue, I'm not mixing verse ability Mechanics at all, you're all misunderstanding what I'm asking.

• Bleach Mechanics: "You cannot Reiatsu Crush someone with Comparable Spiritual Energy as you".

• Other Verse: "Has demonstratably comparable Spiritual Energy to what's in Bleach"

• Equalization doesn't equal the energies, only allows interaction.

So the point on the dice here is, do we honor the fact that the other verse has an energy comparable to Spiritual Energy and thus Bleach's own mechanics prevents it's own characters from Reiatsu Crushing people of equal level, or do we ignore it.

 

[RatherClueless]

Honestly, I am not sure how to express my thoughts right now without sounding rly condescending, but I'll try.

Equalizing energies that are "similar" (pretty much any shonen power system lol) doesnt make any sense. Its like claiming silver is the same as gold with just a different name because they are both elements, they are both shiny and they are both prescious metals. Sound similar enough, right? Sure there are some differences, like color... but meh, thats like no difference at all, right? However, if you were to switch silver and gold in their usage, the device you are typeing on wouldnt work anymore. Why? Because excactly those tiny difference make a massive difference.

This goes for energies in fiction too. Sure, Chakra and Reatsu seem similar enough, but if you actually bothered to look at it, you would realize that equalizing them for those reasons is nothing short of crazy. The important things to look at are the things that make them different, not similar. After all, if they were all so similar, why isnt there something like "Chakra Crush"?

Btw, this goes especially for Nen, one of the most unique powesystems out there.

 

[MostPowerfull]

That is ... To resist the Conqueror's Haki, you must have resistance to Empathic Manipulation. It doesn't matter if on the back, just having a strong willpower is enough to tank it.

Since, no matter if it is similar to another verse, a resistance to Hax needs to be given. Now I get it!

 

[Elizhaa]

@Xerkser500 , you can't equalized the caveats of an energy source as it is basically mixing energy source abilities which give or removing extra abilties/resistance that a party doesn't . You just make energy source interact with each others that is it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Comparable energy isn't enough, Orihime is is like town level and can hang around Yhwach and EOS Ichigo while their energy was running wild.

Orihime can also hang around Ulquiorra who's energy covered the entire canopy of Las Noches and was described as an ocean.

Orihime nulls your argument as well as Tatsuki.

 

[Elizhaa]

@TheFinalOrder, simply, think SBA as allowing only energy source interaction and all abilities/resistances discussed are from the characters' profiles ONLY. So, in your example even the spiritual source is similar but the characters doesn't have resistance to soul manipulation then they get Reiatsu Crush.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Honestly, I am not sure how to express my thoughts right now without sounding rly condescending, but I'll try.
Equalizing energies that are "similar" (pretty much any shonen power system lol) doesnt make any sense. Its like claiming silver is the same as gold with just a different name because they are both elements, they are both shiny and they are both prescious metals. Sound similar enough, right? Sure there are some differences, like color... but meh, thats like no difference at all, right? However, if you were to switch silver and gold in their usage, the device you are typeing on wouldnt work anymore. Why? Because excactly those tiny difference make a massive difference.

This goes for energies in fiction too. Sure, Chakra and Reatsu seem similar enough, but if you actually bothered to look at it, you would realize that equalizing them for those reasons is nothing short of crazy. The important things to look at are the things that make them different, not similar. After all, if they were all so similar, why isnt there something like "Chakra Crush"?

Btw, this goes especially for Nen, one of the most unique powesystems out there.

This isn't really accurate tbh. Chakra in Naruto is in part a Spiritual Energy. Souls Contain Chakra and Chakra interacts with Spirits, going so far as to even connect Physical and Spiritual Worlds.

The literal only difference on Bleach's Side is the passive ability but we're not equalizing them as per the overall conversation. Comparable =/= Equal in every case. Given that Chakra in this case is virtual the same as Spiritual Energy in Bleach, does Bleach's Mechnic for its own characters no longer apply to them when facing a similar energy?

Your example aires on the extreme tbh.

 

[Omimi]

@Elizhaa

so that means similar nature energy from other verse have no affact TSB's power null and six path sage user Invulnerability

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Comparable energy isn't enough, Orihime is is like town level and can hang around Yhwach and EOS Ichigo while their energy was running wild.
Orihime can also hang around Ulquiorra who's energy covered the entire canopy of Las Noches and was described as an ocean.

Orihime nulls your argument as well as Tatsuki.

You're arguing with inconsistencies now?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@TheFinalOrder, simply, think SBA as allowing only energy source interaction and all abilities/resistances discussed are from the characters' profiles ONLY. So, in your example even the spiritual source is similar but the characters doesn't have resistance to soul manipulation than they get Reiatsu Crush.

Alright, I'd still like more input from other staff, but I see your stance on it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Inconsistency? lmao they're feats. Tatsuki is a feat, Orihime is a feat. Not sure how this is an inconsistency. It boils down to what we've been saying. Which is Soul Resistance.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel like this has devolved entirely into a Naruto/Bleach thread and we've already come to a conclusion on the proposals of the OP.

Would it be good for me to close this?

 

[Jvando]

might as well. No one's going to change their minds anytime soon.

 

[AKM sama]

Yes this turned entirely into a verse specific thread. I don't know what's even being discussed anymore.

 

[Elizhaa]

I will likely do a proper revision thread later.

 

[RatherClueless]

pls do