Issue with Energy Equalization

[TheFinalOrder]

@Final Would soul manipulation resistance not give you protection in this case?

It would, yes, but then that opens up another train of thought.

• Passive Soul Manipulation by virtue of having an energy source vs Legitimate Abilities that are Soul Manipulation.

The point on the dice here is, Equalization would null the "technical advantage" of having a Specific Energy to facilitate debate of the characters. This does not mean that abilities that specialize in Soul Manipulation are resisted. That's where the other character having shown Resistance or not to Soul Manipulation should come in to play under Equalization of Energy, and if not and they have already showed Resistance to it in their own verse, then that is one less reason to use Equalization anyways.

Am I making sense?

 

[RatherClueless]

@cal Thats just one step short from "coz energy is equal Sasuke reiatsu crushes the bleach character since he has more chakra", which just doesnt make any sense since you cant straight up compare them like that anyways.

Verse equalizatioin should only exist to allow everyone to fight to their fullest potential like they can in their verse. Buffing the guy with the "weaker/less versitile" energy is just a missive no go and is just straight up unfair since verses like Naruto or DB would get massive buffs whenever they fight verses like Bleach or HxH. Wether their soul manip or what not derives from their energy should not matter in the slightest!

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Again, the verse having a weakness doesn't mean the opposing verse gets a buff.

 

[Wokistan]

It seems to be a weakness about the same as me losing an arm wrestling match to someone who's stronger than me is some inherent weakness and not just "other guy stronger so he can do more" though. Someone's soul crush magic might just be stronger than yours so yours doesn't work, but I don't see why we should say this for unaffiliated system that does totally different things.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because said "unaffiliated system" acts just like said system under a different name.

 

[RatherClueless]

99% of the time it doesnt though. There are barely any energies that act the same.

 

[Wokistan]

If it does completely different things, I wouldn't say it "acts just like the other one".

 

[TheFinalOrder]

False equivalency Overlord.
Reiatsu crush is resisted by having the same energy that grants it and resistance. Soul manip and resistance to it is not inherent to each other, soul manip and resistance are if it is gained from reiryoku.

And no. That is the whole issue that is being had. Equalizing to reiryoku does not grant the abilities that come with it.

There is no proof that Characters in bleach have "Resistance" to the Passive Affects of Reiatsu. Simply put, bleach has demonstrated that the weaker you are, the more susceptible you are and the stronger you are, the less susceptible. You are making an arbitrary claim of resistance being present (Or a factor) here. Literally the "Resistance" is determined by how much Spiritual Energy you have in relation to your opponent.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

I feel like we are making a mountain out of an anthill here tbh...

Welcome to Vs Battles.

 

[Wokistan]

To summarize, I don't agree with the idea of equalizing powers or resistances afforded by some in verse power. I don't like equalization that much in general, but can at least accept it's existence (though maybe it should be optional like speed equal is?)

I am fine with letting different powers interact with one another, and general stuff like resistances to soul manip or being able to see inviable overrides verse specific "only X can Y" as is, but don't think they should be considered the same thing. If oen power system does X abilities and Y resistances while the other does A abilities and B resistances, I don't think those should mix even if the power systems are thematically similar or whatever, because end of the day the things power systems do are still unique abilities for the characters using it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They concepts of the powers come from the same thing. Just because it allows one to burp a little different doesn't make it a different concept. Fire Pokémon can shoot fire while one chick from Fire Force can create living fire. Doesn't matter, it's still fire.

 

[Wokistan]

Except fire and fire are the same thing but fire and lawhax/RW/concepthax/EE are not (Destiny has those 4 via light, and law and RW aren't even PC unique).

 

[RatherClueless]

They concepts of the powers come from the same thing. Just because it allows one to burp a little different doesn't make it a different concept. Fire Pokémon can shoot fire while one chick from Fire Force can create living fire. Doesn't matter, it's still fire.

Like I have already said, fiction often differentiates with things like this. Heck, even fire force differentiates between different types of flames...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Wok. Does it have a caveat? Because all the ones in question have caveats. You have a higher amount of energy in Bleach and HxH you can resist those passive effects. This is something completely uncontradicted in either series.

 

[Wokistan]

They're treated as granting resistances, but it's just general strength. Someone's stronger than one guy so they can take more hits, applies both physically and with the Light powers.

There is of course some crazy resistances granted by Light due to non-Light powers, but there's a reason the PC resists all the Guardian powers

 

[RatherClueless]

@Cal Yes, so?

 

[Antoniofer]

Just because an attack have the shape of a flame do not make it equal. Conventional fire (the one assumed by default) is product of the acceleration of molecules, producing heat; however, esoteric flames have other rules, such holy or hellfire. Using Chi or Magic to generate fire doesn't mean that the fire is esoteric, not by default, since the character may use chi/magic as a medium to control it (just like telekinesis controlling matter).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@RC. Previous post wasn't directed at you.

 

[Elizhaa]

To summarize, I don't agree with the idea of equalizing powers or resistances afforded by some in verse power. I don't like equalization that much in general, but can at least accept it's existence (though maybe it should be optional like speed equal is?)
I am fine with letting different powers interact with one another, and general stuff like resistances to soul manip or being able to see inviable overrides verse specific "only X can Y" as is, but don't think they should be considered the same thing. If oen power system does X abilities and Y resistances while the other does A abilities and B resistances, I don't think those should mix even if the power systems are thematically similar or whatever, because end of the day the things power systems do are still unique abilities for the characters using it.

True. I was busy with other activities like revisions additions but I wanted to a revision based for equalized energy on this point. If I am able, I will do a CRT or a staff thread if needed on the topic later this week.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Why are we making this shit so difficult?

The energy sources are not equalized, the interaction between the two are. A guy with Reiatsu can harm someone else regardless of their energy source, however, if they have soul resistance then they survive. Itachi can still mindhax another character whether they have charkra or not. Natsu can still absorb the flames of a Digimon regardless of whether or not he can absorb Digital powers or not. A Saint Seiya character can still atomize a Digimon regardless of the whole "we are data" nonsense. I could go on and on. I am not seeing why this is becoming so hard. Equalize the interactions, not the abilities.

 

[RatherClueless]

@RC. Previous post wasn't directed at you.

My bad then

 

[Overlord775]

Except fire and fire are the same thing but fire and lawhax/RW/concepthax/EE are not (Destiny has those 4 via light, and law and RW aren't even PC unique).

Wokistan, be serius

NOTHING ever would equilize to the Light

It's just too different on how it works than anything else

stop bringing it up as an argument

 

[Wokistan]

I could think of a few things one could equalize it to in D&D and 40k, and things in even less esoteric verses depending how specific we get with equalization

If you want something less weird though, in 40k people get things like power null just because they don't have souls. Scaling that seems strange

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You can't find one like it word for word but you can find some similar to it which according to some post here would equalize it.

 

[Antoniofer]

Those are easy as they as rpgs, equal with Anima (actually one of the most easy systems to adapt other stuff). Mostly cuz they good explained, and most of this mess comes from vague verses... or people that do not known how to interprete powers.

 

[Wokistan]

I have been informed that Light might not be directly comparable to most things due to it giving a bajillion resistances to other non Light related sources of those abilities, and I already have a way to fix the verse equal problem in Sword Logic, so make of that what you will.

The 40k thing might still be an issue though.

 

[Overlord775]

I could think of a few things one could equalize it to in D&D and 40k, and things in even less esoteric verses depending how specific we get with equalization
If you want something less weird though, in 40k people get things like power null just because they don't have souls. Scaling that seems strange

D&D and 40K work in comepletly different ways than 99% of other verses too

and Blanks are not just souless, they are holes in the warp.

 

[Wokistan]

That's because of what a 40k soul actually is is pretty weird and non standard, but we already let other soul users interact with 40k chars (and I think this is fine).

 

[Overlord775]

Souls in 40k should be 1-B, but meh

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

This is a really dumb subject, the kind of dumb subject that veers off into a discussion that complicates things unnecessarily when we have a perfectly understandable reason why we do things, which is way more simple and unbiased in its application.

Legitimetely, why is this a thing? Seriously, why? I think Dragon summarized it very well.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Guys, if you're just going to post to mock the OP, please don't post at all.

"This is a dumb subject" adds nothing to the actual discussion, it just polarizes both sides of it.

I feel like we've reached a conclusion on the thread in general, though, is there still any dissenting voices in support of the OP that have something to say?

 

[Elizhaa]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl and @Dragonmasterxyz , the problems come from that Standard Battle Assumptions explanations for the equalization is specifying enough. This process lead a large of people to believe that equalization giving or sometimes removing abilities and resistances were fair despite being wrong. I want this thread conclusion to be a new clarifying rule and if this thread can't offer it then I will make a new thread to get it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Shouldn't we adopt something similar to the explanation used by Space Battles then, as it was mentioned above? It pretty well encapsulates what we mean by equalization, I think.

And pardon Dargoo.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I have issues with just copy+pasting stuff from SpaceBattles because their rules are tailored to their userbase/system and our rules are tailored towards ours.

I'm fine with adoping something similar, though, even if it's just a reword.

 

[Elizhaa]

Shouldn't we adopt something similar to the explanation used by Space Battles then, as it was mentioned above? It pretty well encapsulates what we mean by equalization, I think.

So from this link

• #13

I think we can make a rule more specific to this wiki like only the interaction of energy sources are equalized so no extra abilties and resistances should be gained or lost from the interaction of energy sources in Standard Battle Assumptions.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

But again, what about things like naruto? Where very few people (relatively speaking) actually have that energy?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

From what I'm aware of, Naruto's Chakra falls under the Chi/Ki/Personal Energy tree, unless I'm unaware of a large debate on this matter.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

From what I'm aware of, Naruto's Chakra falls under the Chi/Ki/Personal Energy tree, unless I'm unaware of a large debate on this matter.

Only the ninja in the show actually have chakra, there descended from aliens. I know, it sounds like I made that up but, it's a thing

 

[Antoniofer]

Chakra in Naruto works as Chi, the physical essence of life-force (generally speaking); although, I think someone said that since ninjas are offsprings of alien, only the offspring can be affected by it, or something like that.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Chakra in Naruto works as Chi, the physical essence of life-force (generally speaking); although, I think someone said that since ninjas are offsprings of alien, only the offspring can be affected by it, or something like that.

Actually there is a life force energy thing everyone has in naruto that's separate from chakta