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Issue with Energy Equalization

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Haki is completely different from Chakra and Co. First, because Haki is a TECHNIQUE, derived from a mysterious energy that exists in living beings (as far as I know, not even named). It is the same as saying that having Chakra = controlling Fire, Water and co. These are chakra-based techniques, but they need to be trained and learned.

If an energy gives you a skill and then you equalize it with a similar energy verse, then its effects should apply to both.
For example, FT magic could nullify Gudoudama in Naruto. Although there is no Senjutsu in FT, it still has natural energy and thus can affect Gudoudama via EV.

Reiatsu Crush is another thing too. Most quarrels do not come because she is passive but because to resist her, it is enough to have spiritual energy. This is what is explained within Bleach.
However, they selectively equalize Reiryoko with other energies, but continue arguing about R.C within the battle.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Maybe the "Terminology" has to be changed. I think that's where the issue lies.
When we say these various energies are equal, yet argue as if they're not, then that is an issue of misunderstanding the entire basis of "Equalization". Allowing energies to interact is NOT the same as making energies equal.

So, change the terminology seeing as we're not actually making a damn thing equal.
Click to expand...
Just gonna quote this again....
 
Reasing through OP wiki (barely), Haki sounds like life-force tho (not chi, but its superset).
 
The last few chapters confirm that, skilled users can insert their Haki into the opponent to destroy the insides. It's certainly an energy along with other things.
 
A vs thread's thread main purpose is taking two characters and seeing how their respective respective strengths and weaknesses stack up against each other, not write a crossover fan fiction where you have to wonder if having the a different energy will grant you new abilities

VS equalization is a thing because if we had to go "well this guy doesn't resist powernull, but since he doesn't come from the same verse as his opponent he will be unaffected regardless" then that stops us from debating a large majority of fictional matches so as a solution we allow some level of interaction between two concepts not from the same verse

This is what really needs to be kept in mind, the point of equalizing is to allow interaction between powers that make comparison between two characters from different franchises possible and it doesn't matter how logical it is to have an ability given a new source of powers, if it gets in the way of this fundamental idea, by giving powers someone didn't have in canon, thus making stronger in some fashion, then it shouldn't be allowed.

Btw maybe it's a good idea to change this being equalization and just make simple interaction between similar energies? As in Goku wouldn't be assumed to have chakra but rather be assumed to be susceptible to chakra abilities, i think it take care of a lot of confusion regarding this situation
 
@Andytrenom

>This is what really needs to be kept in mind, the point of equalizing is to allow interaction between powers that make comparison between two characters from different franchises possible and it doesn't matter how logical it is to have an ability given a new source of powers, if it gets in the way of this fundamental idea, by giving powers someone didn't have in canon, thus making stronger in some fashion, then it shouldn't be allowed.

But again Andytrenom, we already do this in vs matches even as we speak right now. Like Naruto characters being able to genjutsu people without a chakra network or Dragon Ball characters being able to sense people without KI. That is just one of the problems with this and I have repeated this like 4 times now.

Going deeper, this "interaction between powers" is still blatantly cherry picking what actually applies between the energies and what doesnt to make it convenient for characters to either have an advantage or a disadvantage in a versus match and how much of a said interaction is allowed. Not to mention, this is fan-fiction in and of itself as well since we're literally just saying "screw the energies being very different, lets make them interact because we want to."

Letting them interact is as big a problem with this as only letting them selectively be equalized. As I said earlier, we should either equalize the energies or don't equalize them at all. Nothing inbetween.
 
Bumping since Kukui seemingly missed it.

I'm fine with cherry picking so that more matches are possible. Monika shouldn't be haxless against 99% of characters just because they don't have game files for her to manipulate.

The matches section is to facilitate entertainment between members. I think both not equalizing any energies and equalizing energies completely down to abilities and resistances are bad for everyone's entertainment. Therefore, we should stick with the current partial equalization.
 
@Agnaa

And I and others here vehemently oppose that. If we're to make more matches possible via energies, they should be completely equalized or not at all equalized and not just pick and choose what you want because it better becomes more convienent for you or the person in question.

It's like I said before. Even if this results in characters getting abilities for a specific match, you act as if these characters would magically know how to use them in said match when that wouldnt be true in the slightest. They would still need feats or experience in even knowing how to use the ability, assuming they can even realize they would be granted it in the 1st place.

Not to mention, again, we already give characters abilities from energy equalization that they wouldnt have without it, so you can't act like this is something not at all acceptable when it currently is.

So as far as im concerned, giving characters abilities (ones they wouldnt even be able to use majority of the time) is much more sensible than selectively choosing what we want to equalize and don't want because we want it to better suit our prerogatives.
 
@Kukui Righto, I vehemently oppose your ideas too.

Even if they don't know how to use most abilities, some are passive. I'm interested in characters fighting as they do other characters in their own fiction, I'm not interested in them fighting with half a dozen added resistances.

We give them the bare minimum to make it as if they were fighting any ordinary character in their own fiction with the same list of abilities.
 
Mr.Cinos15 said:
I personally believe we should remove energy equalization entirely.
Click to expand...
Im also not disagreeing with this like I said before btw. Im sliding more towards this opinion than anything else tbh as its the least headacher.
 
@Agnaa

And exactly what passive abilities come from just having the energy sources if you can name some examples? Not anything that needs to be actively obtained by training, things that you would get just by literally having the energy and nothing else.

Yes, I understand why you would be more interested in that, as would everyone in this thread. But what it comes down to isnt what we all want, it comes down to whats the most logical conclusion and that is to either make energies completely equal or not equal at all. Not just part way because some of us not liking another character getting a power boost or not liking their favorite character getting a disadvantage.

Besides, going by your logic, we should throw away Speed Equalization too since it completely messes with how a characters speed is originally portrayed in their own verse, which is what you yourself said your more interested in seeing anyway. If making an immeasurable speed character equally as fast as a subsonic character is an exception for us, this can be too.
 
I agree with what DragonMaster said; obviously we do not give characters the same hax abilities, but what we do say is that Ki, Chakra, and Reishi are all Energy. Genjutsu definitely works on anyone who doesn't resist, but characters who have demonstrated resistance to it do. And energy attacks that are simply just attacks where it's stated only characters with greater amounts of that same type of energy should just be treated as normal attacks that Do not negate durability.
 
I'm pretty sure half of the shit on Sword Logic is passive. Or at least, I can't see how they're active.

Matches are for entertainment, not for logically determining what the strongest character in fiction is. I'm not advocating for this because it buffs characters I like. Exactly 0 characters I actively care for will be affected by this change, and they'll only be buffed by getting equalized energies. Stop baselessly assuming my motive.

Speed equalization also exists to make more matches possible, since most matches in most verses aren't decided by a 10 billion times speed blitz. But the nice thing is that speed equalization is optional, if you don't want to use it you don't have to. But energy equalization is automatically applied to every thread. I seriously doubt we're going to get a rule that lets the OP of the thread decide exactly how much energies are equalized.
 
I mean, equalize Cosmo to Chi (Ki or Chakra), would be either downplay Cosmo capabilities or exaggerate the chi ones, since due Cosmo nature, it cover everything related to life-force and more. Sounds like a lazy tactic.
 
No one was equalizing the abilities, only just the nature/source of it. "Ki Manipulation" or "Chakra Manipulation" are both just examples of Energy Manipulation. That's more or less all that's being said. Absolutely no one is saying we give all the same hax abilities or resistances across all verses, we obviously won't do that.
 
For instance, normally someone that have Chi or Life-Force Nullification wouldn't be unable to cancel the powers of those who use Cosmo; they may cancel out those based in life-force, but not all their application. Similar apply to magic users (altjough, they may affect Mana based powers).
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
No one was equalizing the abilities, only just the nature/source of it. "Ki Manipulation" or "Chakra Manipulation" are both just examples of Energy Manipulation. That's more or less all that's being said. Absolutely no one is saying we give all the same hax abilities or resistances across all verses, we obviously won't do that.
Click to expand...
Kukui said this. Check out his responses to my destiny examples

Edit: not across all verses, didn't see that part
 
We equalize stuff in general for good reason.

Trust me when I say debating verse mechanics interacting with one another will veer threads entirely away from the core "who would win" and into the territory of "well, this kind of magic doesn't interact with this kind of magic because their mechanics are x, y, and x". Which can turn into a huge mess; it's why we and many other battle forums have made rules like this. SpaceBattles words why stuff like this exists on debating forums very well:

This means that when two sides are pitted against each other, we must assume that their abilities will work as described wherever they fight in the debate, so as to not have debates devolve into mass hysterics about how one side's abilities cease to exist when they cross the threshold. This is not limited to things such as hyperspace, subspace, etc, but also to personal abilities such as ki, chakra, etc etc. If one side has a special "force", the other side is assumed to be able to interact with it to some degree, or else Vs Debates ceases to be interactive"
"Generally being similar" is grounds enough for letting two supernatural forces interact and the systems melding together for the purpose of a hypothetical "who would win". I agree there are some special cases, particularly with verses that go out of their way to explain phenomena outside of the scope of what is typically expected of these energy/whatevers, but I'm totally against taking something like Chakra, Ki, Chi, [Insert Energy What Comes from Body], having null interaction with stuff that can essentially just have a nameswap and different particulars.

So no, I don't think we really need to alter rules. Various verses have already, under our system, proven they are exemptions from our general rules on discussions, and we still treat these groups (Chakra/Ki/Chi vs. Magic/Mana/Magika vs. Psychic/Psi/Mind-Powers vs. Biological/Genetical/Bodily Abilties) as independent of one another.
 
Verse Equalizatio

Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

I think this is the main part of our rules that's bringing about this debate so I'll weigh in.

"Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion."

The first thing I thought of when looking through this was Nen. There's that thing about nen users being able to off non-nen users just by their aura, but in verse equalization with, say, Naruto, this effect is nullified because we are considering them both to be "life-force" and thus equivalent in the sense that "Chakra" and "Nen" are simplified to just "Energy" iirc. This is thus a reasonable application of equalization.

I want to ask though, if character [A] in some series has a form of energy called "Life-Force" that, in that world and for everyone who has it, passively turns people who don't have that energy into...flowers (roll with it), this would net them something like, transmutation. Therefore, in order to fight them, you would need resistance of transmutation in order to not get turned into a flower, if we're talking about a Vsbattle against some other character.

Enter character from some other series who also has an energy called "life-force", however, this one doesn't passively transmute people and the character doesn't have resistance to transmutation.

From what I'm understanding then, in the case where we pit them together and "equalize" their energies, Character would just have to get turned into a flower because they don't have resistance to transmutation despite the verse equalization?

By the way, I agree it wouldn't make sense for two completely different forms of energy with completely different passive abilities to be considered completely equal in a Vsbattle. However, if we have two series that have very similar energies but one of the series's energy has an extra trait to it not shared by the other, is that trait considered exempt from equalization?

I apologize if I'm asking questions that have seemingly been answered. Just want a bit more clarification on this front.
 
That's sorta the whole question of this thread summed up lol
 
Kukui seems to support how you interpreted it. Others don't and don't want to give other people abilities from equalizing. Then of course sone people just don't like equalizing but I don't think that's gonna change.
 
Sword logic was already mentioned by Wokistan Agnaa

>Matches are for entertainment, not for logically determining what the strongest character in fiction is. I'm not advocating for this because it buffs characters I like. Exactly 0 characters I actively care for will be affected by this change, and they'll only be buffed by getting equalized energies. Stop baselessly assuming my motive.

Matches being for entertainment does not mean we can start making up and selectively pick what we want to apply and what we dont want to apply to making these energies equal to each other. There is a clear line of logic that is most obviously not meant to be crossed when doing vs matches so whether its for entertainment or not doesnt debunk anything I have said. Its honestly just a lazy counter argument, no offense.

>Speed equalization also exists to make more matches possible, since most matches in most verses aren't decided by a 10 billion times speed blitz. But the nice thing is that speed equalization is optional, if you don't want to use it you don't have to. But energy equalization is automatically applied to every thread. I seriously doubt we're going to get a rule that lets the OP of the thread decide exactly how much energies are equalized.

Speed Equalization makes more matches possible yes, but it does not change the fact that speed equalization very much so messes with a characters actual speed stats that they show from within their verse. The reason why we do this for them is not what matters, its the fact that we do it at all is what my point is referring to. And if we can make equalizing characters speeds an exception despite the clear obvious differences between them, then you have no reason to not accept energies being fully equalized either for the sake of making matches more possible and without needing to debate on which energy is the same.
 
Sword Logic doesnt stop being a valid example just because i mentioned it. There's also Phenomena Interventio or givinf anyone who doesn't have a soul fighting a 40k character extremely broken passives because lol Culexus assassin.

It does though. No law says it's illegal to be pragmatic on a vs debate site. You might notnlike it but you gotta say why being selective is bad first. Not a default assumption.

I can acccept one and not the other because one's a compromise I'm willing to take while another arbitrarily giving people abilities and being like "hmm yes this is a thing thry can do". One thing to not consider one stat as opposed to "you have 18 kerchillion nre powers because you fought this guy"
 
Dargoo Faust said:
"Generally being similar" is grounds enough for letting two supernatural forces interact and the systems melding together for the purpose of a hypothetical "who would win". I agree there are some special cases, particularly with verses that go out of their way to explain phenomena outside of the scope of what is typically expected of these energy/whatevers, but I'm totally against taking something like Chakra, Ki, Chi, [Insert Energy What Comes from Body], having null interaction with stuff that can essentially just have a nameswap and different particulars.
Click to expand...
And here's what I have a huge issue with Dargoo Faust:

First of all, are the energies even remotely similar to make "generally similar"? Because if not, then we are literally being just as fan-fictional as people saying "applying powers to other verses via energies" are as we are acknowleding the fact that these energies are not comparable and we are just saying "screw it, make them interact".

Second of all, lets say they can interact. How much are they able to interact with each other? Or in other words, "how similar" are we going to make them too each other?

This is the problem that im having with this alternative. This is being just as nitpicky with picking apart the energy sources and being as heacanon like as we want to because people want or dont want to apply certain things to another energy source, which I find being extremely flawed and nonsensical to be perfectly honest.
 
I know it was mentioned by him. You asked for an energy that would give passives when equalized, I gave you one.

Matches being for entertainment does not mean we can start making up and selectively pick what we want to apply and what we dont want to apply to making these energies equal to each other. There is a clear line of logic that is most obviously not meant to be crossed when doing vs matches so whether its for entertainment or not doesnt debunk anything I have said. Its honestly just a lazy counter argument, no offense.

Sure we can. Our goal is entertainment, so we pick the option that provides the most entertainment. This is logical.

Speed Equalization makes more matches possible yes, but it does not change the fact that speed equalization very much so messes with a characters actual speed stats that they show from within their verse.

I already addressed this.

And if we can make equalizing characters speeds an exception despite the clear obvious differences between them, then you have no reason to not accept energies being fully equalized either for the sake of making matches more possible and without needing to debate on which energy is the same.

Yes I do, the reason it's allowed as an exception is because it's optional. Changing how much we equalize verses cannot be optional.

Second of all, lets say they can interact. How much are they able to interact with each other? Or in other words, "how similar" are we going to make them too each other?

They can interact as if they were interacting with their own energy in the original verse.
 
>Sure we can. Our goal is entertainment, so we pick the option that provides the most entertainment. This is logical.

So blatantly lying about and manipulating how a character fights another character from a different verse is fine and dandy because it serves better entertainment than watching something on TV?

>Yes I do, the reason it's allowed as an exception is because it's optional. Changing how much we equalize verses cannot be optional.

Just like picking and choosing how much an energy is similar to another energy is also not optional. Thats blatantly manipulating how much one is equal to the other based on whats most convenient. Which is absurd.

By the way, if none of you guys agree with applying abilities to other verses through energy equalization, then you better start taking away stuff like Genjutsu working on people without a chakra network or Dragon Ball characters sensing people without KI. Because this is literally what im suggesting to do and if you disagree with it, you need to take this away as well. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
as we are acknowleding the fact that these energies are not comparable and we are just saying "screw it, make them interact".
Click to expand...
A very minor nitpick, but if two energy sources/systems are not comparable at all in how they work then they don't get put under energy equalisation and just don't interact :/
 
Holyhotsauce said:
A very minor nitpick, but if two energy sources/systems are not comparable at all in how they work then they don't get put under energy equalisation and just don't interact :/
Click to expand...
No one said the latter actually. They just said if they arent comparable they can't be equalized with each other.

Interacting with another energy is not equalizing it.
 
"blatantly lying about how a character fights" youre the one who wants to add extra abilities though?

"Thid id absurd" Why? Seems reasonable to me.

If we write the rules in the right way we can hsve our cake and eat it too. We can do what we collectively want to do on our own site. I wouldn't even oppose removal like thst myself nor would much of the thread, but i doubt it'll happen.
 
So blatantly lying about and manipulating how a character fights another character from a different verse is fine and dandy because it serves better entertainment than watching something on TV?

If you want to put it that way, sure. We don't always go with the hard science and logic route for our regulations.

We already often make fights that logically contradict themselves. If one character's strongest at night and one character's strongest at day, the match will be night for one character and day for the other.

Just like picking and choosing how much an energy is similar to another energy is also not optional. Thats blatantly manipulating how much one is equal to the other based on whats most convenient. Which is absurd.

Yes, it's not optional, that has nothing to do with the point I made.

Me: We should only partially equalize energy so fights are like they are in the verse.

You: Speed equal changes how fights are from their verses, how are you okay with that?

Me: Because it's optional.

You: But partially equalizing energy everywhere isn't optional.

By the way, if none of you guys agree with applying abilities to other verses through energy equalization, then you better start taking away stuff like Genjutsu working on people without a chakra network or Dragon Ball characters sensing people without KI.

That isn't giving abilities to people who fight against Naruto or Dragon Ball characters, it's making the abilities of the Naruto & DB characters function as they would in-verse.

Because this is literally what im suggesting to do and if you disagree with it, you need to take this away as well. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

I fail to see how.
 
>Youre the one who wants to add extra abilities though?

Because it is much more reasonable than cherry picking what you want and dont't want. Im actually moreso agreeing with getting rid of the equalization all together at this point, but if nothing else, doing the least amount of damage control is what I side with.

>Why? Seems reasonable to me

So doing something out of convienence is reasonable now?

>If we write the rules in the right way we can hsve our cake and eat it too. We can do what we collectively want to do on our own site. I wouldn't even oppose removal like thst myself nor would much of the thread, but i doubt it'll happen.

Yes and at that point, "doing what we want" is practically admitting that this is making up fan-fiction, yet my proposal being fan-fiction is the exact same reasoning the opposition has used to deny this. So what is to be taken in the end?
 
You keep making these assertions thst x is more reasonable than Y without even establishing why Y is a problem. Tell me why it's an issue to be selective. Say it straight up and up front. I could do as much for why it's bad to give random anime boy half the powers on the site for fighting random destiny boy, so now j want you to do such for why being selective is an issue since you've just sorta danced around that.

Yeah I see literally nothing wrong with thst atatement

See this is just not even equivalent though. "Characters ability works as it would in verse" is far more true to the verse than "character now destroys concepts with their predence even though this never happened in their verse because hes fifhting the destiny man"
 
>We already often make fights that logically contradict themselves. If one character's strongest at night and one character's strongest at day, the match will be night for one character and day for the other.

False Equivalency, your only setting up a setting scenerio in which the characters in question will be fighting at a certain time during the day. This isnt self contradicting, fights can happen at any time. Making energies only "equal" or "interacting" to [insert here] extent that affects both parties involved is self-contradicting to each other.

>Yes, it's not optional, that has nothing to do with the point I made.

No, but it does show that its a tactic that isnt any better. If making energies equalized isnt allowed because its not optional, neither should there be making energies the same and not the same as much as you want. Both are horrible tactics (the only reason why Im choosing the former over the latter is because its less damaging and more reasonable of an option)

>That isn't giving abilities to people who fight against Naruto or Dragon Ball characters, it's making the abilities of the Naruto & DB characters function as they would in-verse.

Which is, in itself, applying made up abilities to bypass weaknesses.
 
False Equivalency, your only setting up a setting scenerio in which the characters in question will be fighting at a certain time during the day. This isnt self contradicting, fights can happen at any time. Making energies only "equal" or "interacting" to [insert here] extent that affects both parties involved is self-contradicting to each other.

You can't have a fight take place at two different times of day at the exact same time. That's not how times of day work. That's what I mean by logically contradicting itself.

No, but it does show that its a tactic that isnt any better. If making energies equalized isnt allowed because its not optional, neither should there be making energies the same and not the same as much as you want. Both are horrible tactics (the only reason why Im choosing the former over the latter is because its less damaging and more reasonable of an option)

Again, you're not understanding the point I made.

It's not "Making energies equalized isn't allowed because it's not optional", it's "Making energies equalized isn't allowed because it changes the fight from how the characters would fight from their own verse, and the only time something like this is allowed is when it's optional", do you see the added nuance there?

Which is, in itself, applying made up abilities to bypass weaknesses.

It's not a relevant weakness in-verse, which is why it's equalized. Relevant weaknesses in-verse shouldn't be equalized, imo (and I can't off the top of my head think of examples where they are).
 
>You keep making these assertions thst x is more reasonable than Y without even establishing why Y is a problem. Tell me why it's an issue to be selective

Do I seriously need to even explain this? You do know what being selective actually entails right Wokistan? It's picking and choosing what you want or don't want so that you can be entirely manipulate and dishonest over what is to actually be applicable. How in any way, shape or form is this not a problem?

> I could do as much for why it's bad to give random anime boy half the powers on the site for fighting random destiny boy, so now j want you to do such for why being selective is an issue since you've just sorta danced around that

See above. I didn't dance around anything, unless you seriously dont find cherry picking to be an actual problem....and no your right. Giving characters abilities they don't have in their own verse is not exactly the best choice either. But thats not what it comes down to. It comes down to what is the most reasonable and logical conclusion to make without coming off as being manipulative to suit what becomes convinenent for you in a vs match. And that would be to either fully equalize or not equalize. One or the other.

>Yeah I see literally nothing wrong with thst atatement

......then I don't know what else to say to you on this then. If you don't agree now, then its just agree to disagree on this I guess.
 
You do have to explain tjis, because it's already been addressed. Reasons for the choices have already been established, framing it as dishonest is in itself, dishonest, and you attempt to give it this air of incredulity to frame the position as one of less value as opposed to a straight, comprehensive answer addressing the established points.

Setting up a false dichotomy like this just isn't good, because it ignores the arguments for the pragmatic equalization.

Sure.
 
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