ISSTH 1-A?

[Qawsedf234]

Going by Ant, someone may make a revamp CRT soon I guess.

But on topic, I guess look at other verses with a 1-A rating not based on infinite geometric dimensions (like Dungeons and Dragons/Marvel) but rather transcending dimensional concepts and compare the two. Someone mentioned the Masadaverse earlier for example. Why is that verse rated at 1-A?

Core issue as of now is proving if being above the Dao or whatever means being transcendent above dimensional concepts in a similar way True Platonic stuff is.

 

[Nepuko]

Going by Ant, someone may make a revamp CRT soon I guess.
But on topic, I guess look at other verses with a 1-A rating not based on infinite geometric dimensions (like Dungeons and Dragons/Marvel) but rather transcending dimensional concepts and compare the two. Someone mentioned the Masadaverse earlier for example. Why is that verse rated at 1-A?

Core issue as of now is proving if being above the Dao or whatever means being transcendent above dimensional concepts in a similar way True Platonic stuff is.

That should've been normally already resolved imo (but we'll still wait for Zara to get his stuff I guess), since Essence created all space-time, the source of everything, takes up no space but at the same time contains all space. And Essence is and at the same time part of the Dao. So pretty sure by being above what is above dimensional concepts you're above them as well XD.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Its a weird area. I know @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot thought the Far Realm wasn't 1-A on its own despite similar stuff about being above the material universe. But the Essence seems more inclusive than the Far Realm in-universe.

 

[Nepuko]

Its a weird area. I know @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot thought the Far Realm wasn't 1-A on its own despite similar stuff about being above the material universe. But the Essence seems more inclusive than the Far Realm in-universe.

I aplogize, for being a newbie here I don't know what the Far-realm is. I just know that nothing was there before Dao/Essence, and that everything was created by Essence (everything, even reality and unreality falls under that, since there's an Essence for that), no space and time was there before it, space-time existed after it was created by Essence, who's outside of space-time/but similarly contain all of space-time, hence think that going from the definition of 1-A and true platonic concept this should be 1-A stuff. But for your question about them being above dimensional concepts, I think it's pretty logical that being above something that is above dimensional concepts makes you above dimensional concepts as well . I'd like to hear what you think about that

 

[Qawsedf234]

I aplogize, for being a newbie here I don't know what the Far-realm is

My fault here. Its a extra-dimensional realm in D&D

hence think that going from the definition of 1-A and true platonic concept this should be 1-A stuff. But for your question about them being above dimensional concepts, I think it's pretty logical that being above something that is above dimensional concepts makes you above dimensional concepts as well . I'd like to hear what you think about that

If they're above the Essence or part of it, I think a 1-A rating makes sense. Or at least a plausible rating assuming no anti-feats.

 

[Wish888]

I have no opinion on Tenchi Muyo aside from the fact that these profiles are terrible and shoulsn't be seen as examples of 1-A standards.
Regardless the thread is about ISSTH which I don't believe is 1-A.

Mind explaining why these profiles are "terrible" in your own eyes?

 

[Nepuko]

Ok, thanks for the link and your input (glad to see a mod agreeing here, for once).

Have a nice day

PS : still a bit clueless about the Far realm stuff XD. But thanks anyway ^^

 

[Antvasima]

Let's stick to the main topic and stop quoting long posts please.

 

[Nepuko]

Ok, sorry

 

[Doctor_129]

I personally agree with Qawsedf234's comparison idea.
juts compare this verse with the transcending dimensional concepts verse like masadaverse.If we can see the almost same statements´╝îthen things can be much easier.

 

[InfiniteSped]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Masadaverse_Explanation_Page#Taikyoku

I think it's this

 

[InfiniteSped]

Sounds pretty similar tbh

 

[Zaratthustra]

Ok, so it's too much info to get in so little time - till the weekend. Let's go again. I will explain again Essence and Dao.

In ISSTH, as in the other Xianxia's genre novels. Cultivators journey is to understand the Dao, to reach the pinnacle. A journey from not knowing anything about it to comprehending it.

Dao is Revealed for the first time.

Note from the translator who is translated from Chinese to English.

Enlightenment

Examples/Statemens of Enlightenment​

First time when Meng Hao talks about his Dao, Part 2, Part 3. A man under a tree gaining enlightenment Buddhism - who else gained it the same way? Siddharta under the Bodhi Tree and became Buddha - The Enlightenment One. This is an example to show you that Cultivation is about understanding the Dao. Meng Hao gaining Enlightenment - another statement of Meng Hao trying to gain enlightenment. As the Enlightenment continues about Death and Life. - another example of Enlightenment. The end of his little Enlightenment about Death and Life. Dao and Rebirth exist outside of Heaven and Earth. Meng Hao's first Severing - as he had sought the perfection then there is a limit, but by severing perfection from his being, his future is limitless. By severing his Perfection, he gained Eternal. Great Resonance of Dao Part 2 Enlightnment stated Meng Hao's Dao of Alchemy Dao of Alchemy Dao of Alchemy Part 2 Examples/statements/feats to show that bit by bit as the story progressed his Enlightenment increased and his comprehension of Dao and what it is. Meng Hao start to gain Enlightenment about Death Part 2 Part 3 - to truly gain the Enlightenment he needs to die Part 4 Part 5 - Meng Hao kills himself to understand death and to gain the Enlightenment Part 6 Part 7 - Meng Hao revive himself and understand Death/Extermination/Life Again another feat of him trying to understand it.

Question about Dao

Meng Hao is asked about Dao by Nigh Spirit to see what he understand of it.​

Meng Hao is asked what Dao is Part 2 Part 3 - Dao is a direction, a path

Spaces

Meng Hao first comprehension of Essence.​

As you can see the author specify dimensional spaces that were superimposed over each other. You can meet this term "superimposed dimension" in M-String Theory and Hilbert Space. Then he talks about what space is and how the countless dimensional spaces spread in all directions but also how the writer use (X, Y, Z - geometric dimensions) in regard of dimensions. Meaning beyond the first three spatial dimensions. There also this "only a portion of what space was" meaning that is not only the first three spatial dimensions but beyond that. It said length, height, and breadth (width) and overall size was only a portion of the dimensional space it was talking about, in this case, there are countless dimensional spaces/levels/layers of dimensions that super-impose on each other in conjunction with the earlier quote beyond the X, Y, Z. And the first three geometric spatial dimensions were only a portion of that. It's like how X, Y, Z (dimensions) are only a portion of what space was, implying there are more to the dimensionality of space beyond length, height and breadth, and overall size. So, the author thinks that X, Y, Z are all only a portion of what space was. They were all still descriptions of space but only a portion of it. So, there are like Countless Dimensions beyond the X, Y, Z. Coupled with the fact that the earlier quotes speak of dimensions as super-imposing layers upon each other. So, it's saying overall, that the Countless Spatial Dimensions was more than just 3-Dimensional geometrically. The most important things in the quotes upwards are how he was contemplating beyond that, beyond the X, Y, Z ― geometric dimensions and how it had endless possibilities. Also, how he was contemplating the very Essence of Space.

Essence

What Essence is.​

This is the quote when Bai was comprehending Essence - this was him finally comprehending what Essence is. This was the point of Enlightenment. It shows us what the Author think about the Essence. "Essence has no form or shape; it's almost like it doesn't even exist, but simultaneously, it creates and contains every form and shape." ---> has no form or shape like it doesn't even exist but at the same time, it creates and contains all form and shapes. "Essence has no beginning or end, but simultaneously, creates and contains the beginning and end of everything." ---> has no beginning or end but at the same time, it creates and contains the beginning and end of everything. "Essence takes up no space, but simultaneously, creates and contains all space." ---> takes no space, but at the same time, it contains all of them. "Essence exists outside of time, but simultaneously, creates and contains all time." ---> exist outside of time, but at the same time, it contains all time. "Essence does not exist in any one specific place, but simultaneously, creates and contains all places." ---> has no place, but at the same time, it creates and contains all places. "Essence is infinitely small, but simultaneously, infinitely large. "Essence is completely unique, and completely boundless!" ---> it's infinitely small and large, completely unique and boundless. Essence = has no shape/form but creates and contains them all, has no beginning or end but simultaneously, it creates and contains them all, has no space but simultaneously contains all space, exist outside of time, but simultaneously contain all time, does not exist in one place, but simultaneously creates and contains all places, it's infinitely small/large and it's completely unique and boundless. Concepts are created (named) to describe, explain and capture reality as it is known and understood. Essence is abstruse. Essence can be whatever you want wind/sound/space/etc but the form of the wind at its core, its the Essence of them all. Essence is the source of all things. It's the highest form of world concepts, which covers everything that is possible/impossible/etc. Essence is practically a True Platonic Concept meaning 1-A. Meng Hao become a Transcendor. As you can see, he states that once he reaches Daosource he will become a Dao, an Essence. Meng Hao's presence replaces Essence itself. This is self-explained. A Transcendent Cultivator appears finally aka Meng Hao. As it is stated that Transcendor Cultivators are Essence itself. They are completely independent of natural and magical laws, they are their own form of law and can birth Essence. Essence is Dao. Meng Hao's Nine Demon Sealing Hex. As you can see it's saying that Nine Demon Sealing Hex is a Dao that exists above all laws. As I have present above, Dao = Essence meaning that his Hex has become Essence itself. After that, he proceeds to fusion with his all Nine Hexes and transcends.

Short summary: Essence is a True Platonic Concept and Meng Hao once he became a Transcendor he became Essence Itself. He's is Daosource. His thoughts can create/destroy and change Essence.

Edit. Made it easier to read.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To quote Saitama, 20 words or less. A lot of this is just you saying stuff. The dimensional spaces were agreed to not refer to spatial dimensions at all.

A lot of the descriptions of the Dao don't say much of anything and just describe it as a path / point / destination.

 

[Zaratthustra]

It was not agreed. Only you said + I said it was ony for example to show what Essence its or forms takes.

This post is about Essence.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also the whole stuff about Essence is just talking about personal Essence / Dao not all of it and even so the description of it originating and containing all of space and time can really mean anything from Low 2-C to 1-A. Assuming the later automatically is wank.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It was not agreed. Only you said + I said it was ony for example to show what Essence its or forms takes.
This post is about Essence.

I addressed essence as well.

But no, it was agreed. Only you keep seemingly talking about Plato and M-Theory and pretty much anything you can make even the tiniest connections to the story and pretend it's the same. What Dao is in Real Religion is irrelevant, and the quotes in the story are vehemently not talking about spatial dimensions.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Now, you're just downplaying as I have posted all it's needed to show its 1-A. If this is not enough then you may have to downgrade a lot of verse from tier 1.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Woa very 1-A, much platonic.

Do you not see why trying to pass these scans as "proof" of True Platonic Concepts is ridiculous?

 

[Zaratthustra]

What is ridiculous about them?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Now, you're just downplaying as I have posted all it's needed to show its 1-A. If this is not enough then you may have to downgrade a lot of verse from tier 1.

"Don't apply logic to this verse because if you did you'd have to apply logic to other verses and downgrade them as well" is the worst argument anyone and everyone could ever come up with.

Even if true all it means is that the other verses are exaggerated as well, not that yours is being unfairlily treated.

 

[Zaratthustra]

You are treating it unfair as all scans show the oposite of what you show. And what is wrong with the two scans?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You are treating it unfair as all scans show the oposite of what you show. And what is wrong with the two scans?

I am sincerely not, I'm sorry. I read the scans and see that they don't prove what you think they do.

Calling something the "source of everything" or "obtuse and incomprehensible" doesn't make it a transcendental 1-A platonic concept"

Sometimes I find your posts to be quite "abstruse and difficult to comprehend". That doesn't make them platonic concepts.

And even if they were something being platonic =/= It being 1-A.

I'm pretty the platonic crush I felt for a girl in middle school didn't transcend dimensions.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Sometimes I find your posts to be quite "abstruse and difficult to comprehend". That doesn't make them platonic concepts.

Holy shit this made me laugh way harder than it should have

 

[Zaratthustra]

Remade the post from above to be easier to read.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm pretty the platonic crush I felt for a girl in middle school didn't transcend dimensions.

Only the friendzone gets that powerful.

But anyhow, I'm agreeing with Matt here.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Even if something is referred to as a platonic concept, at best it's false platonic unless there's evidence proving that it transcends dimensions.

 

[Rocker1189]

hmm, as someone who is just reading along, I gotta say I barely understand what makes a 1-A well.. a 1-A, that being said it might be because anything above tier 2 confuses me lol.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to help out with evaluating Zaratthustra's long explanation post above?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Zaratthustra

Enlightenment
None of what's stated here is 1-A. It just talks about how Enlightment is eternal, it doesn't have an end.

Question about Dao
Just says that the Dao is a direction and that it's eternal and unchanging. Nothing 1-A about this either.

Spaces
Assuming if, and this is a very big IF these dimensional spaces are spatiotemporal ones rather than just universes, this would be at best 1-B.

Essences
"Essence has no form or shape; it's almost like it doesn't even exist, but simultaneously, it creates and contains every form and shape." ---> has no form or shape like it doesn't even exist but at the same time, it creates and contains all form and shapes."

Not having form or shape is in no form or shape evidence for 1-A. The air I breathe doesn't have form or shape, my thoughts don't have form or shape, this does not make them 1-A. This just means Essence is abstract.

"Essence has no beginning or end, but simultaneously, creates and contains the beginning and end of everything." ---> has no beginning or end but at the same time, it creates and contains the beginning and end of everything.

"Essence takes up no space, but simultaneously, creates and contains all space." ---> takes no space, but at the same time, it contains all of them.

This just means Essence is eternal and it created everything.

"Essence exists outside of time, but simultaneously, creates and contains all time." ---> exist outside of time, but at the same time, it contains all time.

Existing outside of time doesn't warrant High 2-A let alone 1-A.

"Essence does not exist in any one specific place, but simultaneously, creates and contains all places." ---> has no place, but at the same time, it creates and contains all places.

"Essence is infinitely small, but simultaneously, infinitely large.

"Essence is completely unique, and completely boundless!" ---> it's infinitely small and large, completely unique and boundless.

This just means Essence is omnipresent. It created and encompasses everything. Not a single statement proving that it transcends the very concept of dimensions. If this is what the evidence for 1-A is, then I am in full agreement with Matt in downgrading this verse.

 

[Kepekley23]

"The air I breathe does not have form or shape"

...

 

[Kepekley23]

So far I am neutral, leaning towards agreeing with Matt in the sense that the scans provided so far don't seem 1-A.

 

[RatherClueless]

Not going into detail about if I think its 1-A or not, BUT:

"Not having form or shape is in no form or shape evidence for 1-A. The air I breathe doesn't have form or shape, my thoughts don't have form or shape, this does not make them 1-A. This just means Essence is abstract."

It encompasses the concept of shapes, while being shape/formless and seemingly without existance. Its not a concept, but above it. Air is not a concept and thoughts dont encompass/are above the concept of stuff you think about, or are they?

"This just means Essence is eternal and it created everything."

The first quote might, but the second? Containing all ends and beginings, while having none yourself, means that you are above any amount of countably infinite space or time, since they would be encompassed in that.

"Existing outside of time doesn't warrant High 2-A let alone 1-A. "

Not alone it doesn't, but with everything else? Just ignoring every previous and following comment without thinking about the big picture is something I have seen here a lot lol.

"This just means Essence is omnipresent. It created and encompasses everything. Not a single statement proving that it transcends the very concept of dimensions. If this is what the evidence for 1-A is, then I am in full agreement with Matt in downgrading this verse."

Umm. No. Just no. Existing nowhere and everywhere =/= existing actually nowhere and containing everything. Its not omnipresent, but omnipresent within itself. It is not something that can not exist at some place, since all places are within it

I feel like this is just a huge mess of (it feels almost deliberatly) misunderstanding stuff. Everyone who has read it says that these quotes mean transendence, everyone else seems to not get the point. (Maybe I didnt either, who knows).

Not getting the verse, does not warrent a downgrade! Only if someone understands a verse and its concepts, someone can justify any changes!

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"It encompasses the concept of shapes, while being shape/formless and seemingly without existance. Its not a concept, but above it. Air is not a concept and thoughts dont encompass/are above the concept of stuff you think about, or are they?"

And again, how is this proof of being 1-A? This is just saying it doesn't have a physical form, it's abstract.

"The first quote might, but the second? Containing all ends and beginings, while having none yourself, means that you are above any amount of countably infinite space or time, since they would be encompassed in that."

Encompassing it doesn't mean you are infinitely above it.

"Umm. No. Just no. Existing nowhere and everywhere =/= existing actually nowhere and containing everything. Its not omnipresent, but omnipresent within itself. It is not something that can exist at some place, since all places are within it"

What you literally just described is omnipresence.

"I feel like this is just a huge mess of (it feels almost deliberatly) misunderstanding stuff. Everyone who has read it says that these quotes mean transendence, everyone else seems to not get the point. (Maybe I didnt either, who knows)."

I don't care about this verse so I have no reason to be biased in favor or against it. However, when I'm seeing a lack of evidence justifying its tier rating, I will point that out.

"Not getting the verse, does not warrent a downgrade! Only if someone understands a verse and its concepts, someone can justify any changes!"

We don't have to understand every in and out of the verse. We just have to know how to tier things and analyze the scans provided. If there is no evidence proving that the verse is 1-A, then it absolutely warrants a downgrade.

 

[RatherClueless]

oh boy.

"And again, how is this proof of being 1-A?"

look at what I said at the very beginning.

"This is just saying it doesn't have a physical form, it's abstract."

No, it is saying that it is above those concepts. Also, being abstract can be a qualifying factor for 1-A.

"Encompassing it doesn't mean you are infinitely above it."

I never said infinitely above, but encompassing infinite things, thats a difference.

"What you literally just described is omnipresence."

No its not, since it is above existing at every spatial point possible.

"I don't care about this verse so I have no reason to be biased in favor or against it. However, when I'm seeing a lack of evidence justifying its tier rating, I will point that out."

I am sorry, but if there are people that claim that the statement "above all time" means acauslity, then I am,...idk, just at a loss for words I guess. This was not just directed towards you.

"We don't have to understand every in and out of the verse. We just have to know how to tier things and analyze the scans provided. If there is no evidence proving that the verse is 1-A, then it absolutely warrants a downgrade."

Yes, you do! If me not understanding, lets say, masada and their reasonings, would allow me to downgrade the verse, there would be a lot of issues on this wiki, since the rateings would be ruled by the people, who dont understand/know the verses.

 

[Nepuko]

Before it, there was no concept of dimensions. It is the source and origin of everything. It created the concept of dimensions. It encompasses the concept of shapes and forms, while having none. Like it dosen't exist. It has no beginning and no end, while it created and contains all beginnings and ends. It takes up no space, but at the same time creates and contains ALL space. Exists outside of time, but also creates and contains all time. Has no place, but simultaneously it created and contains all places. It is infinitely small, and infinitely large. Completely unique, and completely boundless.


Now, compare this to the definition of 1-A :

Characters that have no dimensional limitations.

Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all dimensions of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.

Note that all tier 1-A characters have qualitative superiority over dimensional structures and concepts. Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being.

There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should EITHER be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; OR the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained.


What else do you need?

 

[Ogbunabali]

It encompasses the concept of shapes, while being shape/formless and seemingly without existance. Its not a concept, but above it. Air is not a concept and thoughts dont encompass/are above the concept of stuff you think about, or are they?

The first quote might, but the second? Containing all ends and beginings, while having none yourself, means that you are above any amount of countably infinite space or time, since they would be encompassed in that.
Literally never stated. This is headcanon at best.

 

[Nepuko]

Ogbunabali

Sup Bali

It is literally (pun intended) stated.

• "Essence has no form or shape; it's almost like it doesn't even exist, but simultaneously, it creates and contains every form and shape." ---> has no form or shape like it doesn't even exist but at the same time, it creates and contains all form and shapes."

• "Essence has no beginning or end, but simultaneously, creates and contains the beginning and end of everything." ---> has no beginning or end but at the same time, it creates and contains the beginning and end of everything.

There you have them.

Have a nice day

 

[Ogbunabali]

You don't have to be above the Platonic Concept of dimensions in order to be shapeless and contain every form and shape.

And that's only limited to the number of dimensions it has shown, and that's 3.

 

[RatherClueless]

Yes it was, most of the stuff is just rather flowery and, like I have said before, context and the big picture of things matters

For example, if he wasnt talking about space and time, what was he talking about? The beginning and ending of bananas? Use your brain for crying out loud (not directed at you, but ingeneral, when it comes to things like this).