Isamu vs Kamen Rider Geats (Tiersetter Tourney R1M7)

[Jerry59]

And since Kokken's attacks are not faster than herself, Geats would easily dodge them via analytic prediction as long as they come from a far distance. Like, the radius of the AoE is 80m or so, judging by her AP feat. A guy that is supposed to be able to dodge attacks from a dozen sources simultaneously without trouble won't have any problem avoiding that until he is less than 100m away.
And thanks to the RPL being argued he probably has the stats to just tank a hit or two at that point... or y'know, the luck.

Ehhh dunno, he can easily dodge when it’s still 2–4 kilometers away ig, but if it’s less than 1 km, he should get hit. He can only run like a athletic human (baseline athletic it seems), so he can not dash 80 meters away from a slash coming at him in seconds. His Desire thing only makes him comparable to Kokken, so mass destruction stuff still hurt. She still has a chance even if it’s low I suppose

 

[Agnaa]

Ehhh dunno, he can easily dodge when it’s still 2–4 kilometers away ig, but if it’s less than 1 km, he should get hit. He can only run like a athletic human (baseline athletic it seems), and his combat speed isn’t enough for him to dash 80 meters away from a slash coming at him in seconds. His Desire thing only makes him comparable to Kokken, so mass destruction stuff still hurt. She still has a chance even if it’s low I suppose

I thought his speed was just Supersonic+ all around as Kamen Rider Geats, giving him the speed to dodge it, especially if he can predict it.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Ok I'm here to clear the air.
Geats will at least have the minimum lose rate of 5% against Kokken Sabi.
Firstly, Kokken completely outranges Geats' attack range. It may say hundreds of ms to kms with guns and cannons but I assume the kilometers should be for the cannons rather than guns. This comes into play because he has to be in direct confrontation for his luck to kick in, since there hasn't been cases where luck has aided him from getting sniped or get defeated by a surprise attack from far away.
Secondly, the AoE of her slash seems big enough for Geats to get hurt while closing in. Sure, he can get a few dodges here and there, but the chance of getting hit is pretty even to the chances of him dodging it. I mean look at the radius.

Like, the radius of the AoE is 80m or so, judging by her AP feat.

And thanks to the RPL being argued he probably has the stats to just tank a hit or two at that point... or y'know, the luck.

Geats' Empowerment actually just makes him on par with his opponent; if he's outstatted in some way, his desires will allow him to be on equal grounds with his opponents and give them a run for their money, unlike my other Rider submission that can go 3x his AP due to his actual RPL. And as with both of them, they do not happen immediately. Give them a very dire situation, a life or death kind of shtick and it'd accelerate. It can be argued that Geats' desire (which is the strongest in his respective series) will allow him to be empowered faster but by no means is he going to be like that just a few minutes in.

The supernatural luck that is argued would include things like making her drop her sword or randomly slip, which would prevent her slashes regardless of their AoE.

To be fair, people were arguing here that the supernatural luck can do relevant things, but wouldn't do so very often.

I don't think something that fends of several attackers while they are statistically way superior and the user "doesn't know how to fight at all", can logistically only activate to save him 5% of the time.

Geats' supernatural luck is minor because it only serves to inconvenience and mildly annoy the opponent; it doesn't match the scale of the likes of Higashikawa or Ladybug's charm. What his luck brings is completely limited by the environment that Ace will be in. It also relies on Ace's surrounding and the potency of his luck can summon outside help at its maximum, which it can't happen in matches anyway. This won't save his ass from certain defeat as seen when this version of Ace in this scan who can only rely on his luck to get out of a sticky situation gets absorbed by the villains. The OG Ace himself has canonically died by screwing up, and his luck wasn't there to save him at that point.

I thought his speed was just Supersonic+ all around as Kamen Rider Geats, giving him the speed to dodge it, especially if he can predict it.

I assume that Geats would have his speed equalised to Kokken, no? Since the whole tourney turned into a speed equal one.

He can only run like a athletic human (baseline athletic it seems), and his combat speed isn’t enough for him to dash 80 meters away from a slash coming at him in seconds

That should be his speed untransformed.

 

[Jerry59]

I thought his speed was just Supersonic+ all around as Kamen Rider Geats, giving him the speed to dodge it, especially if he can predict it.

His Supersonic+ section only mentions that he dodged bullets, so not sure if it also includes travel speed. I guess we should just ask the KR fellas lol

Edit: nvm

 

[Jerry59]

I assume that Geats would have his speed equalised to Kokken, no? Since the whole tourney turned into a speed equal one.

What he meant by "all around" is that the pfp might indicate he is Supersonic+ in both combat and travel speed. So when speed is equalized, both of these speeds get multiply up or down. This is important because if his travel speed scale to his combat, he could cover the entire 4 km in exactly 10 secs

That should be his speed untransformed.

Cool, so when transformed, is he just slightly above athletic human's running speed or does he become Mach >2 all around?

 

[Agnaa]

I assume that Geats would have his speed equalised to Kokken, no? Since the whole tourney turned into a speed equal one.

Yeah, but for dodging an 80m wide attack, it's still relevant what his travel speed is, and that isn't equalised, it's just moved proportionally.

If his combat speed is made 4x slower, his travel speed will be made 4x slower, instead of being set to his opponent's travel speed.

Your reasons do kinda err on having me let him stay, if he's gonna need to really drop in to fight back. Still, the heights his analytical prediction are being argued to are spooky. Do note that, since Kokken's combat and projectile speeds are the same, he'd only need to be as far away from Kokken as the attack is wide to have the raw speed to dodge it.

But I gotta sleep, will look at this later.

 

[Jerry59]

Your reasons do kinda err on having me let him stay, if he's gonna need to really drop in to fight back. Still, the heights his analytical prediction are being argued to are spooky. Do note that, since Kokken's combat and projectile speeds are the same, he'd only need to be as far away from Kokken as the attack is wide to have the raw speed to dodge it.

Just saying this in case, but if his travel speed doesn’t scale to his combat, personally i think Kokken still has a chance, perhaps at worst five percent like the rules suggest. He's ~1.5 times weaker than her at first, and there are other reasons I stated above. So Geats can still stay aye

 

[Shadowslash125]

Ok so for his travel speed.
On their own, Monster Form is superhuman with the values being 12.98m/s and Magnum Form has the same rating with 13.33m/s.
When he uses it together, the speed is taken from the form that comprises his legs. So if Geats' in MagnumMonster form, he'll be travelling at 12.98m/s and vice versa.
Though he can travel faster by riding Boostriker, which can travel 333km/h, which is subsonic.

Your reasons do kinda err on having me let him stay, if he's gonna need to really drop in to fight back. Still, the heights his analytical prediction are being argued to are spooky.

In a tourney where someone can tear apart the space the target inhabits and all in all warp space-time and a rat can have an entire army with the chockful of haxes that is packed into warpstone, I think a guy who can dodge well can very well have a place to stay and belong. Also Geats doesn't get AnPr until he uses the Magnum Buckle.

Do note that, since Kokken's combat and projectile speeds are the same, he'd only need to be as far away from Kokken as the attack is wide to have the raw speed to dodge it.

I'm not clear on this, can you please explain?

 

[Shadowslash125]

Ok so for his travel speed.
On their own, Monster Form is superhuman with the values being 12.98m/s and Magnum Form has the same rating with 13.33m/s.
When he uses it together, the speed is taken from the form that comprises his legs. So if Geats' in MagnumMonster form, he'll be travelling at 12.98m/s and vice versa.
Though he can travel faster by riding Boostriker, which can travel 333km/h, which is subsonic.

I've been pointed out that Geats is able to physically move out of Dapaan's bullets and the latter's combat speed is supersonic+ and has AnPr due to Magnum Form. Would that be considered as travel speed or does it still remain in the realms of combat/reaction speed?

 

[Agnaa]

Ok so for his travel speed.
On their own, Monster Form is superhuman with the values being 12.98m/s and Magnum Form has the same rating with 13.33m/s.
When he uses it together, the speed is taken from the form that comprises his legs. So if Geats' in MagnumMonster form, he'll be travelling at 12.98m/s and vice versa.
Though he can travel faster by riding Boostriker, which can travel 333km/h, which is subsonic.

Yeah okay so he'd probably be slow enough for Kokken to take some wins.

Although, this really should be on his page.

In a tourney where someone can tear apart the space the target inhabits and all in all warp space-time and a rat can have an entire army with the chockful of haxes that is packed into warpstone, I think a guy who can dodge well can very well have a place to stay and belong.

This tourney's a bit of an experiment, trying to decide who can enter by some relatively hard-and-fast criteria (who can lose to the tiersetter), rather trying to subjectively decide which entries are fair.

Also Geats doesn't get AnPr until he uses the Magnum Buckle.

That also makes things more fair!

I'm not clear on this, can you please explain?

If an attack is 80 meters wide, and you move as fast as that attack, and you can't predict that attack before it is made, then you would become unable to dodge it when it's 40 meters away, as you wouldn't be able to cross the 40 meter gap necessary to be outside of its AoE before it would hit you.

I've been pointed out that Geats is able to physically move out of Dapaan's bullets and the latter's combat speed is supersonic+ and has AnPr due to Magnum Form. Would that be considered as travel speed or does it still remain in the realms of combat/reaction speed?

Still combat/reaction I'd say.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So the idea is Geats has lower travel speed than combat speed, do I get that right?

In other words, Isamu gets to dictate combat distance?

Also, which tier and abilities does he have access to with the Magnum Buckle? What's his range like with that one?

 

[Agnaa]

So the idea is Geats has lower travel speed than combat speed, do I get that right?

In other words, Isamu gets to dictate combat distance?

• He has lower travel speed (although this isn't really clear with the current profile, so maybe we wanna leave this point out).
• His Analytical Prediction doesn't function until he activates Magnum Form (which isn't much of a hindrance against Isamu since Isamu gets outranged).
• His effective retaliatory range is in the hundreds of meters span, while his luck is probably even shorter (again, not much of a hindrance against Isamu).
• His Reactive Power Level takes a fair bit of time to ramp up, unless the opponent's doing something like destroying the world.

Also, which tier and abilities does he have access to with the Magnum Buckle? What's his range like with that one?

EDIT: Oh right lol, Magnum Buckle's only 8-B, so his long-range option would be absolutely stonewalled by Isamu's Transparent Film. For actual Low 7-C blows, he's stuck at melee range.

EDIT 2: This idea has been responded to, with claims that it does scale.

 

[Kachon123]

since Isamu gets outranged

As for range, that's simply a profile issue. According to the range page, users of firearms have the same range that Geats does:
Hundreds of Meters: 100 - 1,000 m

• The distance that you can reach with a bow & arrow/crossbow.
• The distance that you can perceive without a scope; average firing range for firearms

 

[Agnaa]

To some extent, profiles could have lower ranges if the character hasn't been shown to effectively use firearms at that range. But idk if we actually generally apply that.

 

[Kachon123]

For actual 7-C blows, he's stuck at melee range.

He's outranged by Isamu, who can fight from further distances.

 

[MrTayman616]

Man, i should have followed this from the start. If it's not troublesome, can someone summary the current arguments please?

 

[BERRIES555]

From what I got; Isamu has the numbers advantage (4v1) and has the initial AP/Speed advantage.

Ace has a massive skill edge (See reply ~20 for Ace’s skill chain) and precog. He also can close the gap between him and Isamu via Desire Amps and RPL.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Oh right lol, Magnum Buckle's only 8-B, so his long-range option would be absolutely stonewalled by Isamu's Transparent Film. For actual 7-C blows, he's stuck at melee range.

Technically, if he's only using Magnum Form. Geats Riders can mix and match buckles and use two buckles at once, though which Buckle becomes which part of his armor depends on the placement of his buckles. He can go into Magnum Form only or use it together with Monster Form by putting the magnum on the left or right side of his belt. This is Geats using Monster on his right side and Magnum on his left side. Utilising Monster and Magnum in this order allows him to keep his AP/Dura while benefitting from Magnum's abilities like his range. The same can be said for when he uses Magnum for his upper body armor and Monster lower body armor.
And this is normal Monster.

EDIT: Monster and Magnum Form allows Geats to also shoot energy projections of his fist in the same manner as his Monster Form (just without the arm following his gigantic fist). Still the usage case is the same so Kokken won't be seeing this.

For actual 7-C blows, he's stuck at melee range.

Just letting you know now, Geats Monster Form can do this via his elasticity and density manip exclusive to Monster Buckle. Though this takes a while to activate and is only seen being used against a megazord-sized opponent, so he usually won't use this in one vs one threads (so Kokken won't be seeing any fists coming her way in the desert). And increasing the size of his fists also gives his enemies a bigger target to attack if they're ready.

He's outranged by Isamu, who can fight from further distances.

This looks tens of meters rather than something like a hundred. I can see Isamu's projectiles going for hundreds but his spider arms don't look to be able to go that far.

 

[Agnaa]

Technically, if he's only using Magnum Form. Geats Riders can mix and match buckles and use two buckles at once, though which Buckle becomes which part of his armor depends on the placement of his buckles. He can go into Magnum Form only or use it together with Monster Form by putting the magnum on the left or right side of his belt. This is Geats using Monster on his right side and Magnum on his left side. Utilising Monster and Magnum in this order allows him to keep his AP/Dura while benefitting from Magnum's abilities like his range. The same can be said for when he uses Magnum for his upper body armor and Monster lower body armor.
And this is normal Monster.

EDIT: Monster and Magnum Form allows Geats to also shoot energy projections of his fist in the same manner as his Monster Form (just without the arm following his gigantic fist). Still the usage case is the same so Kokken won't be seeing this.

What substance is there behind the idea that using Monster and Magnum would give the projectiles 7-C AP?

 

[Shadowslash125]

What substance is there behind the idea that using Monster and Magnum would give the projectiles 7-C AP?

The Monster Buckle on its own is stronger than the other regular buckles in terms of the stat it brings. Using it in tandem with other buckles (in this case, the Magnum) allows Geats's stats to be dictated by the stronger buckle, hence his low 7-C stats are applied to his whole arsenal, including his Magnum Shooter (which is only 8-B when he's using it untransformed or in his non-monster rider forms, save for Boost which is another can of worms that doesn't need to be opened here). Otherwise, it's like saying Geats Monster Form is just donning a low 7-C armor while his exposed non-monster parts are still being an 8-B body in AP and durability, which isn't the case.

 

[Kachon123]

This looks tens of meters rather than something like a hundred. I can see Isamu's projectiles going for hundreds but his spider arms don't look to be able to go that far.

Geats has hundreds of meters melee combat range?

 

[Shadowslash125]

Geats has hundreds of meters melee combat range?

With his gun yes.

 

[Agnaa]

The Monster Buckle on its own is stronger than the other regular buckles in terms of the stat it brings. Using it in tandem with other buckles (in this case, the Magnum) allows Geats's stats to be dictated by the stronger buckle, hence his low 7-C stats are applied to his whole arsenal, including his Magnum Shooter (which is only 8-B when he's using it untransformed or in his non-monster rider forms, save for Boost which is another can of worms that doesn't need to be opened here). Otherwise, it's like saying Geats Monster Form is just donning a low 7-C armor while his exposed non-monster parts are still being an 8-B body in AP and durability, which isn't the case.

I'm not saying that his durability is lower, he is transforming after all, just that his projectiles from the Magnum Buckle might be.

Could you link the thing indicating that sort of scaling between buckles?

 

[Kachon123]

With his gun yes.

That is not.... melee combat

For actual 7-C blows, he's stuck at melee range.

Which is what Agnaa was mentioning

 

[Shadowslash125]

That is not.... melee combat

Oh right. Normally Melee (or extended melee) without his other abilities.

Just letting you know now, Geats Monster Form can do this via his elasticity and density manip exclusive to Monster Buckle. Though this takes a while to activate and is only seen being used against a megazord-sized opponent, so he usually won't use this in one vs one threads (so Kokken won't be seeing any fists coming her way in the desert). And increasing the size of his fists also gives his enemies a bigger target to attack if they're ready.

 

[Kachon123]

Oh right. Normally Melee (or extended melee) without his other abilities.

I mean, sure, but that just makes him a bigger target to get frozen, riddled with holes, or cut up.

In melee range, Geats won’t actually be able to get close without leaving himself open to attacks due to the range and numbers disadvantage. Isamu has a significant advantage.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Could you link the thing indicating that sort of scaling between buckles?

The monster buckle gives the users monster-class striking power (for his fists only) and fighting ability in general, and if it somehow doesn't affect Magnum Shooter, it'd definitely affect his armored guns on his wrists or shins depending on where its armor is formed at, since it's apart of the body rather than a separate equipment (even then the Magnum Booster is actually part of the Magnum Buckle, which is the one being enhanced in the first place). This should also apply to his forcefields via the Magnum Buckle. Better yet, Magnum Shooter also allows Geats to insert any buckle into it to enhance his attacks so it'll make sense that Geats can boost the AP of his gun by inserting the Monster Buckle into it and also hypothetically utilise its elasticity and density manip (though it's not shown because he hasn't used it like that in series).

Using it in tandem with other buckles (in this case, the Magnum) allows Geats's stats to be dictated by the stronger buckle

It's actually not just the Monster Buckle; Buckles stronger than the Monster Buckle are shown to boost those weaker than it, as seen when this random GM Rider uses Magnum with a Jyamato Buckle (which is far stronger than any other buckles at that point of the story) is able to significantly damage this Rider who's at the top tiers at the time, being able to no-sell these two. Hence my statement.

I mean, sure, but that just makes him a bigger target to get frozen, riddled with holes, or cut up.

Firstly, this is assuming all his gear wouldn't just fly from the sheer force of the punch since it was able to launch this guy up into the air who at his maximum weights 71100000 kg. None of his attacks are going to stop Geats' fist from flying right at him and even if it does, his whole arm is large and just flick his gear away with his fingers.
I won't deny that Geats can't get damaged like this (his target is bigger now, thus the target is bigger).
Secondly, his freezing wouldn't be able to cover his whole fist and if he ends up freezing the arm guards rather than the actual fist underneath, it'd do jack shit. And let's say he does freeze it successfully, he can y'know, just make his fists bigger and break the ice that way, along with the fact that he can still control his arm especially if he fires his fist from far away. And it's not just one arm he can use.

 

[Kachon123]

Firstly, this is assuming all his gear wouldn't just fly from the sheer force of the punch since it was able to launch this guy up into the air who at his maximum weights 71100000 kg. None of his attacks are going to stop Geats' fist from flying right at him and even if it does, his whole arm is large and just flick his gear away with his fingers.

Not how it works. Isamu has higher AP as well as much more lethal attacks. Geats can't just "flick his gear away" because they're literally spinning buzz saws and drills. If he tries to do so, he's losing his fingers and hands.

I won't deny that Geats can't get damaged like this (his target is bigger now, thus the target is bigger).

Then you also need to acknowledge that doing this does more harm than good due to the AP gap.

Secondly, his freezing wouldn't be able to cover his whole fist and if he ends up freezing the arm guards rather than the actual fist underneath, it'd do jack shit. And let's say he does freeze it successfully, he can y'know, just make his fists bigger and break the ice that way, along with the fact that he can still control his arm especially if he fires his fist from far away. And it's not just one arm he can use.

1. Geats' arms grow to the size of a building, something Isamu is very well fully capable of covering with his ice considering he could instantly freeze Evil Natural Water.
2. There's absolutely 0 reason why it'd just freeze the arm guards.
3. GROWING AND SHRINKING YOUR FIST DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO BYPASS IT GETTING FLASH-FROZEN

And it's not just one arm he can use.

If he's stuck using 1 arm to fight I don't know how you can think he even has a chance here when he's also outnumbered.

 

[MrTayman616]

In close range, i believe Isamu would do better considering his range, AP, more than 8 extra limbs with lethat tools and used for instant kill, three underdog (Every one of them is more durable and has higher AP, can self destruct which Isamu believes it can kill someone on their level, can fusion to get stronger etc etc.) and 8 octotank that shoots in the alert zone until the enemy is dead. He can go and freeze him while attacking with all of these.

When Geats get bigger, which stats get higher for him? If the necessary stats is not getting higher(or higher enough), he would still get cut, get frozen, is more vulnerable to getting all of their attacks because of size etc.

What are Geats wincons in close range and long range?

 

[Kachon123]

I think it's worth mentioning that Geats' resistance to poison manipulation wouldn't necessarily make him immune to Isamu’s poison. This is because the effects of the poison Geats resisted are completely different from the effects of Isamu’s poison. The poison Geats resisted dissolves anything it comes into contact with and turns targets into zombies, while Isamu’s poison works differently.

Unless Geats has a universal resistance to all types of poison, I don’t see why Isamu’s poison wouldn’t affect him.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Firstly, I think Isamu's Snowman Bot would take a while to start up. All the scans I've seen with Isamu is that he prepares his stuff one-by-one, and never settling for a complete package all at once. Instead, he'll do this thing once, stow it away to prepare for another thing, and then utilise that thing, rinse and repeat. And no, his many blades and saws thing feels like a thing rather than a statement that he can use everything in his arsenal all at once.

Not how it works. Isamu has higher AP as well as much more lethal attacks. Geats can't just "flick his gear away" because they're literally spinning buzz saws and drills. If he tries to do so, he's losing his fingers and hands.

Even if Geats get hurt in the process, you're not considering the fact that any gear in his way will already be knocked away by the force of the fist. Also keep in mind he won't usually go with this first minute into the battle, so by the point he goes for the Luffy ahh punch, the gap may be lesser than you think. Either that, or his empowerment has already bumped him to whatever the hell Isamu scales to.

There's absolutely 0 reason why it'd just freeze the arm guards.

Geats is not stupid enough to not see him chromed out in gear especially during combat where he'll be seeing him prepare his stuff. He's going to make sure his arm guards are taking the brunt of everything in his path.

Geats' arms grow to the size of a building, something Isamu is very well fully capable of covering with his ice considering he could instantly freeze Evil Natural Water.

You are not considering the distance between them when he'll be doing this. Fair enough if it's near but from far away? No way in hell it'll cover that much ground.

GROWING AND SHRINKING YOUR FIST DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO BYPASS IT GETTING FLASH-FROZEN

Let me stop you there, mate. Unless it's absolute zero freezing, it's not going to freeze him completely within. This would let his arm and fist grow larger in size to break it from within. Ice is too rigid to accomodate for the growing size and would break just like that, unless he spamming it at his fists. In which case...
You may freeze the fist but you cannot stop the bloody force and motion that's going straight for Isamu. And who's to say he's going at a straight line. His armor allows him to flexibly control his arms and get enemies from unexpected angles. Meaning he can very well pull a Naruto and uppercut him from the ground or something of the sort.

If he's stuck using 1 arm to fight I don't know how you can think he even has a chance here when he's also outnumbered.

You do realise that this will accelerate his empowerment? Only one arm will be traded to completely equalise his stats with his opponents. Also this.

I think it's worth mentioning that Geats' resistance to poison manipulation wouldn't necessarily make him immune to Isamu’s poison. This is because the effects of the poison Geats resisted are completely different from the effects of Isamu’s poison. The poison Geats resisted dissolves anything it comes into contact with and turns targets into zombies, while Isamu’s poison works differently.

Unless Geats has a universal resistance to all types of poison, I don’t see why Isamu’s poison wouldn’t affect him.

You were saying?

three underdog (Every one of them is more durable and has higher AP, can self destruct which Isamu believes it can kill someone on their level, can fusion to get stronger etc etc.)

Quick question, how do they attack? If they just attack with their fists or is all in all close range (not counting the self destruct explosion), they're nothing more than mooks with better stats.

and 8 octotank that shoots in the alert zone until the enemy is dead.

They feel like inferior versions of any Geats Riders that utilise the Magnum buckle, which are capable of doing stuff like this. Geats himself has no-sold such users even with the latters' AnPr. Keep in mind he's not even using a Magnum Buckle to do this feat. Eight of these won't make enough of a difference for him.

When Geats get bigger, which stats get higher for him?

Geats can only increases his arm size and density when using Monster Form. But his empowerment can increase all of his stats to the point he's on equal footing with Isamu. Using finishers in any form allows him to power up his attacks by an unquantifiable amount along with causing explosions.

If the necessary stats is not getting higher(or higher enough), he would still get cut, get frozen, is more vulnerable to getting all of their attacks because of size etc.

I won't deny that Geats can't get damaged like this (his target is bigger now, thus the target is bigger).

What are Geats wincons in close range and long range?

Overall:

• Outskill Isamu
• Bypass his transparent film to defeat him as even breathing at his direction without Isamu's gear will end him.
• Get empowered enough to equalise him in stats

Close range:

• Tearing away his gear with his superior Class G LS. It'll be faster to just rip his film away by getting close to him but he can also do that to just any gear that stands in his way.
• Enlarge his fist and send it right at him by stretching towards him with force. The force of the punch will be able to destroy everything in its path thanks to the LS that's utilised in the punch. (Technically this is a long range wincon but it's from his fists so ehh)

Long Range:

• Find an opening in Isamu's defences and shoot that area. His info analysis and AnPr from Magnum Buckle allows him to do so
  • Alternatively, snipe him.
• Machine Gun

I completely forgot that Geats can create forcefields.

 

[Shadowslash125]

However, in the scenario Shadowslash mentioned (gunfire from above)

Nowhere in my posts have I ever said Geats will absolutely go for this at all. I merely said:

Given the openness of the location (Central Park), he's susceptible to fire from upwards unless he surrounds himself in a cube of it.

This is just me saying he could be open to fire from upwards. Geats has options to bypass his film besides firing from above.

 

[Kachon123]

Firstly, I think Isamu's Snowman Bot would take a while to start up. All the scans I've seen with Isamu is that he prepares his stuff one-by-one, and never settling for a complete package all at once. Instead, he'll do this thing once, stow it away to prepare for another thing, and then utilise that thing, rinse and repeat

Incorrect. He always uses multiple of his gadgets at the same time.

• Against G5, Isamu used his multiple Underdog Men bots and followed up with several missiles to attack at the same time. During which he retreated (indicating he could have attacked as well).
• Against Phoenix Man, Isamu used his shotgun and then defended with 5 transparent films while preparing to attack with his energy sword and 8 mechanical appendages equipped with blades.
• Against Evil Natural Water, Isamu prepared for battle immediately by taking out his energy blade and using his mechanical appendages to help him dodge, attack, and defend at the same time.

And no, his many blades and saws thing feels like a thing rather than a statement that he can use everything in his arsenal all at once.

What? He quite literally fights using every single one of the blades and saws at the same time.

Even if Geats get hurt in the process, you're not considering the fact that any gear in his way will already be knocked away by the force of the fist

Why? Isamu has higher AP and only fights using spinning buzzsaws and other types of blades so he'd just slide through Geats' hand. Or just freeze it whole before it reaches him like he did to Evil Natural Water.

Also keep in mind he won't usually go with this first minute into the battle, so by the point he goes for the Luffy ahh punch, the gap may be lesser than you think.

He will be completely outranged in melee if he does not use it, and if he does use it he leaves himself open to getting sliced up or frozen solid. Me and @MrTayman616 's point is that he's at a disadvantage melee-wise no matter what he choses.

Either that, or his empowerment has already bumped him to whatever the hell Isamu scales to.

Baseless assumption.

Geats is not stupid enough to not see him chromed out in gear especially during combat where he'll be seeing him prepare his stuff. He's going to make sure his arm guards are taking the brunt of everything in his path.

Isamu was able to freeze an attack when it was centimeters from his face. The same attack that he could barely dodge before. Even if Geats is wearing his arm guards, he's still getting frozen solid. He doesn't have resistance.

You are not considering the distance between them when he'll be doing this. Fair enough if it's near but from far away? No way in hell it'll cover that much ground.

His entire arm being frozen vs his forearm and fist being frozen doesn't change the fact that it pretty much removes usage of that limb. The point still remains that it does more harm than good.

Let me stop you there, mate. Unless it's absolute zero freezing, it's not going to freeze him completely within. This would let his arm and fist grow larger in size to break it from within. Ice is too rigid to accomodate for the growing size and would break just like that, unless he spamming it at his fists. In which case...
You may freeze the fist but you cannot stop the bloody force and motion that's going straight for Isamu. And who's to say he's going at a straight line. His armor allows him to flexibly control his arms and get enemies from unexpected angles. Meaning he can very well pull a Naruto and uppercut him from the ground or something of the sort.

Isamu's ice manipulation doesn't cover the target in a sheet of ice. It is a very cold breath that freezes the target over (including living creatures). Having elasticity, being able to grow/shrink your arm or move it in different angles does not allow you to thaw yourself out of being frozen over. Again, he does not have resistance.

You do realise that this will accelerate his empowerment? Only one arm will be traded to completely equalise his stats with his opponents.

Okay? That literally means nothing. His empowerment still takes time and the moment his arm is frozen he's still having to deal with Isamu's attacks, his gunfire, and the attacks of his 3 underdog men.

Also this.

Isamu literally has the transparent film which he can layer. We've already established that projectile attacks are no issue.

You were saying?

This proves my point lol. The Dock Cylinder is the canister in which the poison that Geats resisted was stored. The scan you just sent states that the canister has a structure that allows it to hold all kinds of poison, but we literally know that the poison used was nothing like Isamu's.

Quick question, how do they attack? If they just attack with their fists or is all in all close range (not counting the self destruct explosion), they're nothing more than mooks with better stats.

They fight with their fists. They are much faster than Isamu and Geats and more durable and stronger than the latter as well. "Not counting the self destruction explosion" is ridiculous to say considering their main point is to be decoys that distract the enemy and explode. You can not separate the two.

They feel like inferior versions of any Geats Riders that utilise the Magnum buckle, which are capable of doing stuff like this. Geats himself has no-sold such users even with the latters' AnPr. Keep in mind he's not even using a Magnum Buckle to do this feat. Eight of these won't make enough of a difference for him.

I'm sorry, but none of these are very impressive at all, nor do they prove that he can avoid all of these. You keep acting as if he's dealing with the 8 octotanks in a vacuum, but he's not. He's fighting those + Isamu + the Underdog Men. Even if you want to say that he could avoid the 8 octotanks for some time, they literally do not stop firing and he will also be pressured by Isamu's attacks. He's going to be dodging for the entirety of the fight an then exploded by several Underdog Men bots in a best-case scenario.

Geats can only increases his arm size and density when using Monster Form. But his empowerment can increase all of his stats to the point he's on equal footing with Isamu.

Can you prove this? @Agnaa claimed that:

• His Reactive Power Level takes a fair bit of time to ramp up, unless the opponent's doing something like destroying the world.

• Bypass his transparent film to defeat him as even breathing at his direction without Isamu's gear will end him.

He absolutely can not do this. You're making baseless claims at this point.

Tearing away his gear with his superior Class G LS. It'll be faster to just rip his film away by getting close to him but he can also do that to just any gear that stands in his way.

He can not do this as he will lose fingers and limbs. These are what you're saying he'd tear away. Good luck trying.

Enlarge his fist and send it right at him by stretching towards him with force. The force of the punch will be able to destroy everything in its path thanks to the LS that's utilised in the punch. (Technically this is a long range wincon but it's from his fists so ehh)

This has already been countered. He's getting frozen the instant he tries.

• Find an opening in Isamu's defences and shoot that area. His info analysis and AnPr from Magnum Buckle allows him to do so
  • Alternatively, snipe him.
• Machine Gun

Isamu can do all of the and hand has shields and appendages that protect him without him needing to actually do anything while Geats doesn't. This is an Isamu advantage, not the other way around.

I completely forgot that Geats can create forcefields.

As can Isamu. He can create at least 6 at a time. And yet you're claiming Geats can bypass this "just because."

This is just me saying he could be open to fire from upwards. Geats has options to bypass his film besides firing from above.

Such as? You're yet to mention a single one.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Child emperor tends to apply whatever is best for the situation. Given his stat advantage and ability to work a long side his robots he should have the upper hand. Especially since he can disable his opponents tech.

Isamu has my vote.

 

[MrTayman616]

Quick question, how do they attack? If they just attack with their fists or is all in all close range (not counting the self destruct explosion), they're nothing more than mooks with better stats.

We don't see them using tools like Child Emperor. As far as we have been shown, they use fist and Child Emperor uses their durability to resist the enemy and take out the enemy using self destruction (Three of them using their durability to get close and then self destructing etc. would be more than enough to kil).

They feel like inferior versions of any Geats Riders that utilise the Magnum buckle, which are capable of doing stuff like this. Geats himself has no-sold such users even with the latters' AnPr. Keep in mind he's not even using a Magnum Buckle to do this feat. Eight of these won't make enough of a difference for him.

They would be capable of pressuring him. Also i'd argue that just one of them alone has a higher shooting rate than many of them combined, considering it's equal speed as well.

Geats can only increases his arm size and density when using Monster Form. But his empowerment can increase all of his stats to the point he's on equal footing with Isamu. Using finishers in any form allows him to power up his attacks by an unquantifiable amount along with causing explosions.

How fast is his empowerment? I remember it being said that it takes time for it to happen.

• Bypass his transparent film to defeat him as even breathing at his direction without Isamu's gear will end him.

How does he bypass it? I didn't see anything like that being talked about. And how does breathing at his direction ends him?

• Tearing away his gear with his superior Class G LS. It'll be faster to just rip his film away by getting close to him but he can also do that to just any gear that stands in his way.
• Enlarge his fist and send it right at him by stretching towards him with force. The force of the punch will be able to destroy everything in its path thanks to the LS that's utilised in the punch. (Technically this is a long range wincon but it's from his fists so ehh)

I don't think he'd be able to do it at all. Child Emperor's close range tools are very lethal, has higher AP and considering his other tools, I don't think he'd be capable of doing it at all. Also he'd lose his hand as he's trying to attack him with his big size fist. AP and Numbers would be more effective than LS here. Also the moment he makes it bigger, Child Emperor just freezes it before it even reaches him.

• Find an opening in Isamu's defences and shoot that area. His info analysis and AnPr from Magnum Buckle allows him to do so
  • Alternatively, snipe him.
• Machine Gun

His shield, Ai machines, Transparent films which even his Ai machines possess. (Also how strong are those weapons? As far as i've seen, not strong enough to break or pass through any of his defenses.)

I think Child Emperor has the upperhand here. My vote is currently for Isamu. It can change depending on the replies.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Incorrect. He always uses multiple of his gadgets at the same time.

• Against G5, Isamu used his multiple Underdog Men bots and followed up with several missiles to attack at the same time. During which he retreated (indicating he could have attacked as well).
• Against Phoenix Man, Isamu used his shotgun and then defended with 5 transparent films while preparing to attack with his energy sword and 8 mechanical appendages equipped with blades.
• Against Evil Natural Water, Isamu prepared for battle immediately by taking out his energy blade and using his mechanical appendages to help him dodge, attack, and defend at the same time.

That is not remotely what I mean. All of this highlights the keyword: Follow Up. I'm asking if they use it all at once at the same time. What all these scans show is what I've said:
Isamu uses one of his gear for one purpose, then takes out another gear to do another thing, and then it loops back to the beginning of this sentence. The first scan especially showcases this. And that includes all the moments he uses his energy blade in the scans you've shown me, which doesn't even count; I'm specifically talking about the gear.
You want to know my criteria of using multiple weapons all at once at the same time?

What? He quite literally fights using every single one of the blades and saws at the same time.

Ok, I admit that I wrote this part very weirdly:

And no, his many blades and saws thing feels like a thing rather than a statement that he can use everything in his arsenal all at once.

But my meaning still stands; Isamu's blade and saw appendages still count into the loop as one primary kind of gear with just the purpose of attacking. Hell, his whole backpack is used to bring up those appendages.

From all this, I can deduce that Isamu can only utilise about 4 gears max: One from his backpack, one for each of his hands, and his summons.

Why? Isamu has higher AP and only fights using spinning buzzsaws and other types of blades so he'd just slide through Geats' hand.

Also keep in mind he won't usually go with this first minute into the battle, so by the point he goes for the Luffy ahh punch, the gap may be lesser than you think. Either that, or his empowerment has already bumped him to whatever the hell Isamu scales to.

Or just freeze it whole before it reaches him like he did to Evil Natural Water.

His entire arm being frozen vs his forearm and fist being frozen doesn't change the fact that it pretty much removes usage of that limb. The point still remains that it does more harm than good.

Isamu was able to freeze an attack when it was centimeters from his face. The same attack that he could barely dodge before.

Okay? That literally means nothing. His empowerment still takes time and the moment his arm is frozen

This has already been countered. He's getting frozen the instant he tries.

I've repeated this time and time again. You freeze a moving object, and it'd still be moving due to the force. Geats' fist attack is not a projectile in that sense and even if you try and say "well it's connected to the body" the fact of the matter is that he's still stretching it. And with a force like Class G applied to his whole arm, it won't be stopping at all. Period.

Even if Geats is wearing his arm guards, he's still getting frozen solid. He doesn't have resistance.

Isamu's ice manipulation doesn't cover the target in a sheet of ice. It is a very cold breath that freezes the target over (including living creatures). Having elasticity, being able to grow/shrink your arm or move it in different angles does not allow you to thaw yourself out of being frozen over. Again, he does not have resistance.

Oh no...
I've been so stupid...
I can't believe I miss something so crucial.
That's the fact that
YOUR SCANS ARE SHOWING ISAMU COMPLETELY FREEZING A BEING MADE OF WATER!
Of course, he'll be able to completely freeze this guy over. The freezing point of water is 0 degrees celsius. Obviously, this shouldn't even remotely translate to Isamu being able to freeze Geats like this at all. Sure, he might have no resistance against it, but at the same time, such feat is used against an opponent that can easily be frozen even in real life. No, Geats won't freeze to something that's akin to the average refrigerator. And this is all assuming he even lands a hit.

he's still having to deal with Isamu's attacks, his gunfire, and the attacks of his 3 underdog men.

I'm sorry, but none of these are very impressive at all, nor do they prove that he can avoid all of these. You keep acting as if he's dealing with the 8 octotanks in a vacuum, but he's not. He's fighting those + Isamu + the Underdog Men. Even if you want to say that he could avoid the 8 octotanks for some time, they literally do not stop firing and he will also be pressured by Isamu's attacks. He's going to be dodging for the entirety of the fight and then exploded by several Underdog Men bots in a best-case scenario.

You know what? I'm just going to leave this here. He's more than capable of dealing this stuff like this, flight or not.

They fight with their fists. They are much faster than Isamu and Geats and more durable and stronger than the latter as well. "Not counting the self destruction explosion" is ridiculous to say considering their main point is to be decoys that distract the enemy and explode. You can not separate the two.

Hey, are those 'meat'shields for Geats to use as cover? Maybe he'll do just that and promptly leave before they explode. End of Story. Better yet, he can grab them by the shins and chuck them right at Isamu just before the explosion. And again, you're still insinuating Geats will be stupid enough to fall for decoys.

This proves my point lol. The Dock Cylinder is the canister in which the poison that Geats resisted was stored. The scan you just sent states that the canister has a structure that allows it to hold all kinds of poison, but we literally know that the poison used was nothing like Isamu's.

This is how the Dock Cylinder is used. Admittedly, it is my fault for not showing how it's done. But what kind of "all kinds of poison" do you not understand? Furthermore, the poison you're talking about is a part of the mixture in the cylinder. The Zombie Breaker is said to provide inner destruction with said poisons too.
But even then, if we just go by the logic of having resistances or not... Then Geats resists Isamu's poison (which isn't even as dangerous or impressive).

He will be completely outranged in melee if he does not use it, and if he does use it he leaves himself open to getting sliced up or frozen solid. Me and @MrTayman616 's point is that he's at a disadvantage melee-wise no matter what he choses.

This is why I've been talking about the Magnum Buckle all this time. Geats has the ability to mix and match his armor to have different abilities from their respective buckles. Geats will most likely go Monster and Magnum or Magnum and Monster with such a distance between each other to relieve himself of that disadvantage. I've even went back and forth with @Agnaa in this very thread about his projectiles also scaling to the Monster Buckle's AP.
Actually, lemme just:

Technically, if he's only using Magnum Form. Geats Riders can mix and match buckles and use two buckles at once, though which Buckle becomes which part of his armor depends on the placement of his buckles. He can go into Magnum Form only or use it together with Monster Form by putting the magnum on the left or right side of his belt. This is Geats using Monster on his right side and Magnum on his left side. Utilising Monster and Magnum in this order allows him to keep his AP/Dura while benefitting from Magnum's abilities like his range. The same can be said for when he uses Magnum for his upper body armor and Monster lower body armor.
And this is normal Monster.

EDIT: Monster and Magnum Form allows Geats to also shoot energy projections of his fist in the same manner as his Monster Form (just without the arm following his gigantic fist). Still the usage case is the same so Kokken won't be seeing this.

This is why Geats doesn't have to go full on Jake Stretchy Arm mode immediately; he has guns just as powerful as his AP.

Isamu literally has the transparent film which he can layer. We've already established that projectile attacks are no issue.

As can Isamu. He can create at least 6 at a time. And yet you're claiming Geats can bypass this "just because."

He still needs time to layer all of them in a short timeframe. I can get by the fact he's most likely able to pop off one of these mid-combat, maybe two. But all six in that time is way too far-fetched even for a person lol. You even said this yourself:

Yes, in most situations, Isamu would take the time to set it up as a wall, as that is its intended use

The difference is that Geats doesn't need to take it out of his backpack, saving him time in comparison to Isamu.

He absolutely can not do this.

Figure of speech. Obviously, he's not going to be able to bypass it literally. I'm explaining that he has to deal with the film. Once he has found any available, he'll be able to exploit it. Hence the label of wincon.
At which he should, given his abilities and intelligence. What did you expect when an Extraordinary Genius has to fight against a Supergenius???

Can you prove this? @Agnaa claimed that:

His Reactive Power Level takes a fair bit of time to ramp up, unless the opponent's doing something like destroying the world.

FIrstly, what you're asking me to prove and what Agnaa has claimed are completely different. Regardless, Agnaa is not wrong in his point, but it's not just that. I've already addressed these claims in this very page.

Give them a very dire situation, a life or death kind of shtick and it'd accelerate. It can be argued that Geats' desire (which is the strongest in his respective series) will allow him to be empowered faster but by no means is he going to be like that just a few minutes in.

And

Geats' Empowerment actually just makes him on par with his opponent; if he's outstatted in some way, his desires will allow him to be on equal grounds with his opponents and give them a run for their money, unlike my other Rider submission that can go 3x his AP due to his actual RPL.

Such as? You're yet to mention a single one.

Overall:

• Outskill Isamu
• Bypass his transparent film to defeat him as even breathing at his direction without Isamu's gear will end him.
• Get empowered enough to equalise him in stats

Close range:

• Tearing away his gear with his superior Class G LS. It'll be faster to just rip his film away by getting close to him but he can also do that to just any gear that stands in his way.
• Enlarge his fist and send it right at him by stretching towards him with force. The force of the punch will be able to destroy everything in its path thanks to the LS that's utilised in the punch. (Technically this is a long range wincon but it's from his fists so ehh)

Long Range:

• Find an opening in Isamu's defences and shoot that area. His info analysis and AnPr from Magnum Buckle allows him to do so
  
  • Alternatively, snipe him.
• Machine Gun

Anyways I've been wondering, since I have been repeating my points again and again and again.
Are you even completely reading them at all? Certain points of your arguments throughout this whole thread have been shown to me that you've been selectively reading my stuff, especially when you've asked questions that I've already answered way back (even stuff in this page, for crying out loud).

 

[Shadowslash125]

We don't see them using tools like Child Emperor. As far as we have been shown, they use fist and Child Emperor uses their durability to resist the enemy and take out the enemy using self destruction (Three of them using their durability to get close and then self destructing etc. would be more than enough to kil).

So they're just mooks but more powerful, then. Geats should be able to see the self-destructions coming via his AnPr (even then, it'd kinda be obvious with them lunging for him). He can probably use them as cover while in combat before getting away from the scene if they decide to go boom. With the difference in LS, Geats can even use his underdog men against him by either chucking them right at Isamu or grabbing their shins and swing them at him.

They would be capable of pressuring him. Also i'd argue that just one of them alone has a higher shooting rate than many of them combined, considering it's equal speed as well.

Just having higher shooting rate wouldn't exactly cut it as Magnum users have auto-aim in their kit, which Geats just completely no-sold. These guys' way of detecting opponents isn't as dependable unlike radars and the like, especially when Geats finds out how they check for his carbon dioxide emission. At which he'll just well hold his breath and retake them in cover. And then they also have to go through the Riders' own Magnum AnPr that allows him to visualize landing points and predicted trajectories of his own and others' attacks. letting him outmaneouver these bots. Even without them, he's just as capable on his own without any significant pressure (the forms are completely different here but you get the point).

How fast is his empowerment? I remember it being said that it takes time for it to happen.

I'll just:

Give them a very dire situation, a life or death kind of shtick and it'd accelerate. It can be argued that Geats' desire (which is the strongest in his respective series) will allow him to be empowered faster but by no means is he going to be like that just a few minutes in.

TLDR: it'd already have started by the start of combat but it will accelerate more when the above happens. Just know the difference is not as noticeable at the early minutes of the match.

How does he bypass it? I didn't see anything like that being talked about. And how does breathing at his direction ends him?

Figure of speech, Bypass as in he'll have to find some way to deal with the film since that's just stopping him from oneshotting the kid, not literally bypass it like he's duranegging.
Same with breathing in his direction; Isamu's physical dura is 8-B and Geats' AP is Low 7-C so... You get the picture.

I don't think he'd be able to do it at all. Child Emperor's close range tools are very lethal, has higher AP and considering his other tools, I don't think he'd be capable of doing it at all. Also he'd lose his hand as he's trying to attack him with his big size fist. AP and Numbers would be more effective than LS here. Also the moment he makes it bigger, Child Emperor just freezes it before it even reaches him.

Fair enough on the AP and numbers aspect.
As for whether he'll be able to do this, check these out, starting from this and ending at this. He's more than capable to pull it off hopefully without any hitch.
(I'd elaborate this more but alas, I need to sleep)

Also how strong are those weapons? Same as his Ap?

His sniper is all packaged into one Magnum Shooter, which should scale to Monster's AP due to my explanation post above. Same with his wrist/shin guns.

Two Fun Facts:

• I got it wrong that the Magnum Shooter has a machine gun mode since he can rapid fire it like one at its base (sniper doesn't do that but it's firing rate is still faster than normal snipers).
• When in rapid fire, it can fire up to 3333 bullets a second! Great for mowing down a bunch of enemies.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Another thing I've been pointed out that I've been blind to is that Evil Natural Water isn't even able to control its body temperature, hence the extra reasoning for being frozen. Humans are able to passively control their body heat by the hypothalamus. People shivering from the cold is the hypothalamus causing rapid contractions in muscles to generate heat, thereby raising the temperature. All the more reason that his freezing won't even work at all against Geats.