Isamu vs Kamen Rider Geats (Tiersetter Tourney R1M7)

[Agnaa]

Two heavy tech users face off as part of my 7-C tourney.

Isamu's gear will put him at 16.06 Kilotons. Umbrella Shield and Brave Giant will be restricted.

Kamen Rider Geats will be in his Encounter Arc key, starting in Monster Form, with Boost Buckle restricted, putting his AP at 4.7 Kilotons.

Speed will be equalised. Other than that, I'll be using Standard Battle Assumptions, so it'll provisionally be starting at 1 kilometer, per Geats' vague "Hundreds of Meters to Kilometers with guns and cannons" range rating.

Isamu: 6 (@Kachon123, @Raiden38, @Quangotjokes, @MrTayman616, @ProbNotAFelon, @ReusedOil)

Kamen Rider Geats: 10 (@BERRIES555, @Shadowslash125, @Jerry59, @TsukasayaEmmaDCD, @EddisherSound, @Chronster, @ZeedKZ, @IxaSaga2, @Psychomaster35, @shootingrock)

Inconclusive: 0

@Kachon123 @Shadowslash125

 

[Shadowslash125]

Following, will reply soon.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump :3

 

[Shadowslash125]

Sorry for the late reply, had the whole day of stuff yesterday.

Isamu's transparent films will tank Geat's attacks very well, considering the 3.41x diff, so that's one point against Geats. He'll especially be notified of it immediately since he'll be geared up, thanks to the mask of his. This fact will likely lead to Isamu underestimate Geats, leaving him open to surprises. His poison gas is out of the question because of Geats' resistance to it, and it's strange that his gear has projectiles but is only listed as Extended Melee. Other than that, I'll just wait for the OPM supporters to chime in.

Geats's monster form is akin to Donkey Kong's fists with Luffy's elasticity and size enlargement. Normally he'd also be in pure melee range (without considering his finisher in this form) but he makes up for the lower AP with the fact that he can use the Magnum buckle anytime to increase the range to Hundreds of Meters to Kilometers. Ace and Magnum has quite the affinity and is his most favoured buckle to use. He can use the Magnum Buckle in tandem with his Monster Buckle to become MonsterMagnum or MagnumMonster. With how far they are, he's more likely to do this rather than to go fist to fist. As long as he's using the Magnum buckle, he has access to his gun, where he can turn the pistol-like Magnum Shooter to a sniper rifle or a machine gun. His info analysis will not only allow him to find about about his transparent films, but also the trajectory to fire it accurately enough to go through it. Seeing as Isamu's dura is 8-B without his films, one bullet is enough to KO him.

 

[Agnaa]

Gonna take that as just info-posting, and not as a vote for Gears just yet.

 

[Kachon123]

thanks to the mask of his. This fact will likely lead to Isamu underestimate Geats, leaving him open to surprises.

This isn't a character trait of Isamu. He goes for the kill always no matter how much weaker his opponent is than him. He's a genius and hero who is experiences in fighting all types of opponents. He's not going to let his guard down. Isamu's backpack weapons are also able to protect him without his input. These weapons were able to instantly kill a monster who scale above 16.06 kilotons, so Geats won't be landing any attack on Isamu before getting stopped.

 

[Kachon123]

How would Geats respond to getting flash-frozen or having his technology shut down?

 

[Kachon123]

As long as he's using the Magnum buckle, he has access to his gun, where he can turn the pistol-like Magnum Shooter to a sniper rifle or a machine gun. His info analysis will not only allow him to find about about his transparent films, but also the trajectory to fire it accurately enough to go through it. Seeing as Isamu's dura is 8-B without his films, one bullet is enough to KO him.

1. Isamu himself has up to 8 machine gun fire-type bots that each won't stop firing until Geats stops breathing.
2. The transparent films are resistant to sudden impact so a simple change in trajectory won't allow Geats to bypass them. He'd need to either prevent Isamu from using them altogether or have high enough AP.
3. Isamu can fight using a sword and shield, with his shield allowing him to get up from attack that could pierce through 5 transparent films.

 

[Nicetoderp]

This isn't a character trait of Isamu. He goes for the kill always no matter how much weaker his opponent is than him. He's a genius and hero who is experiences in fighting all types of opponents. He's not going to let his guard down. Isamu's backpack weapons are also able to protect him without his input. These weapons were able to instantly kill a monster who scale above 16.06 kilotons, so Geats won't be landing any attack on Isamu before getting stopped.

The weapon somehow jams or just miss the mark because of Ace of Luck. Geats and Kamen Rider in general is able to withstand attacks with much higher potential than themselves. Others characters with high level of desire allowing them to amp themselves far beyond that, with Geats being the one with the most desire of them all.

How would Geats respond to getting flash-frozen or having his technology shut down?

Class G lifting strength break through. Desire Driver powered by ID Core, aka, Rider Power aka 4-D Conceptual source minimum. So good luck trying to disable it.

 

[Agnaa]

The weapon somehow jams or just miss the mark because of Ace of Luck.

How consistently helpful is this luck? Like, in an average match, will it cause the fatal blow to always miss, cause every attack to miss, or just have a ~5-10% chance to cause any given attack to miss?

Geats and Kamen Rider in general is able to withstand attacks with much higher potential than themselves. Others characters with high level of desire allowing them to amp themselves far beyond that, with Geats being the one with the most desire of them all.

How big is this amp?

 

[Kachon123]

The weapon somehow jams or just miss the mark because of Ace of Luck. Geats and Kamen Rider in general is able to withstand attacks with much higher potential than themselves. Others characters with high level of desire allowing them to amp themselves far beyond that, with Geats being the one with the most desire of them all.

That's not how his abilities work as listed on his profile. Isamu's melee attacks aren't just going to "miss" or jam. You can withstand punches or kicks, but not saws and drills that are already >4x stronger than you. He's getting his limbs butchered off.

Class G lifting strength break through

LS is not an answer to freezing.

Desire Driver powered by ID Core, aka, Rider Power aka 4-D Conceptual source minimum.

This doesn't mean anything lmao. Just because his tech is powered by a 4-D source doesn't mean that Isamu would be unable to disable it. He has no resistances on his profile so he'd be affected like anyone else would.

 

[Shadowslash125]

This isn't a character trait of Isamu.

I assumed it was since his weakness states he has a superiority complex.

He goes for the kill always no matter how much weaker his opponent is than him. He's a genius and hero who is experiences in fighting all types of opponents. He's not going to let his guard down.

Geats' greatest asset in battle is his experience, with over 2000 years worth of it since he has taken part in death games against monsters and battle royales with other players ever since the time of the Greeks. He should be more than enough to deal with what Isamu has.

Isamu's backpack weapons are also able to protect him without his input. These weapons were able to instantly kill a monster who scale above 16.06 kilotons, so Geats won't be landing any attack on Isamu before getting stopped.

Isamu himself has up to 8 machine gun fire-type bots that each won't stop firing until Geats stops breathing.

Isamu can fight using a sword and shield, with his shield allowing him to get up from attack that could pierce through 5 transparent films.

Geats with analytical prediction thanks to his Magnum Buckle forms can go through these.

The transparent films are resistant to sudden impact so a simple change in trajectory won't allow Geats to bypass them. He'd need to either prevent Isamu from using them altogether or have high enough AP.

The scan shows me that it has to be set up, rather than being a part of his robotic limbs, and the size of that is not enough considering that Geats can just aim for any exposed part of his body not covered by the film itself. Geats will not be giving him enough time to place a film nor will he get fooled by its transparency. Given the openness of the location (Central Park), he's susceptible to fire from upwards unless he surrounds himself in a cube of it.

How consistently helpful is this luck? Like, in an average match, will it cause the fatal blow to always miss, cause every attack to miss, or just have a ~5-10% chance to cause any given attack to miss?

It's only enough to inconvenience opponents in combat, way way smaller than whatever Ladybug has.

How big is this amp?

I've answered that already but it's depending on the situation. I don't see Geats getting amped to high heavens fighting a child of all things unless he insults Ace's mom.

 

[TsukasayaEmmaDCD]

Following

 

[Kachon123]

I assumed it was since his weakness states he has a superiority complex.

He just doesn't like getting treated like a child by people he's smarter than.

Geats' greatest asset in battle is his experience, with over 2000 years worth of it since he has taken part in death games against monsters and battle royales with other players ever since the time of the Greeks. He should be more than enough to deal with what Isamu has.

This is cool I guess? I mentioned Isamu's experience because you claimed he'd let his guard down, when he's far too experienced to do something like that. I'm not really sure how Geats' battle experience from the time of the ancient Greeks would help him deal with crazy futuristic tech though.

Geats with analytical prediction thanks to his Magnum Buckle forms can go through these.

What? You literally did not even respond to the arguments I made. "Analytical prediction" is not one.

How is analytical prediction going to allow Geats to stop Isamu's backpack weapons from protecting him while he's off-guard? How is analytical prediction going to let Geats destroy 8 different miniature robots placed around the battle field that literally don't stop firing? How is analytical prediction going to let Geats' gunfire get through Isamu's shield?

The scan shows me that it has to be set up, rather than being a part of his robotic limbs, and the size of that is not enough considering that Geats can just aim for any exposed part of his body not covered by the film itself. Geats will not be giving him enough time to place a film nor will he get fooled by its transparency. Given the openness of the location (Central Park), he's susceptible to fire from upwards unless he surrounds himself in a cube of it.

The scan I sent showed Isamu saying verbatim that he can "roll it up for portability." He an his Underdog Men robots can wrap their bodies in it to protect themselves from attacks.

 

[Shadowslash125]

He just doesn't like getting treated like a child by people he's smarter than.

This is cool I guess? I mentioned Isamu's experience because you claimed he'd let his guard down, when he's far too experienced to do something like that. I'm not really sure how Geats' battle experience from the time of the ancient Greeks would help him deal with crazy futuristic tech though.

What I mean to say is that he has experience fighting against other capable riders with the same tech he has as well as monsters that pose a threat to said riders for over 2000 years. Not only has Geats experienced being in every significant era of humanity normally, but also fought and consecutively won every round since his first battle royale/death game. The amount of skill he has racked up is no joke. Hence whatever tech Isamu has won't faze him in the slightest, since it's nothing new. Geats' tech is mad advanced since it comes from 1000 years into the future, so it's like nothing to write home about.

What? You literally did not even respond to the arguments I made. "Analytical prediction" is not one.

How is analytical prediction going to allow Geats to stop Isamu's backpack weapons from protecting him while he's off-guard? How is analytical prediction going to let Geats destroy 8 different miniature robots placed around the battle field that literally don't stop firing? How is analytical prediction going to let Geats' gunfire get through Isamu's shield?

Was said hastily (hadn't eaten my lunch). Now I can elaborate.
Geats' Magnum AnPr allows him to visualize landing points and predicted trajectories of his own and others' attacks. Meaning he should be able to figure out where Isamu's attacks would go and happen, allowing him to just outmaneouver and avoid it in general. Even without AnPr, he's skilled enough to avoid them just fine. Revolve On allows Geats to switch armor positions of his buckles on the fly and can be used to dodge very well. When using magnum, he already outranges Isamu according to their profiles so he can manage that too.

1. Isamu himself has up to 8 machine gun fire-type bots that each won't stop firing until Geats stops breathing.

Geats himself is no stranger to danmaku (all Magnum users have it, including himself), and he's been able to fight against one such magnum user with just a sword without the latter landing a single hit (hence where his AnPr resistance comes from too).

Isamu saying verbatim that he can "roll it up for portability." He an his Underdog Men robots can wrap their bodies in it to protect themselves from attacks.

If he's within Geats' range of fire, I don't see why Geats won't be able to just snipe his hand. Keep in mind he can also shoot from his wrists or shins depending on where Magnum's placed, so any blind spots Isamu will have are just a bullet away from giving Geats a win. When Geats gets into grab range with Isamu, he can most likely just snatch away the film with his superior LS and be done with it.

3. Isamu can fight using a sword and shield, with his shield allowing him to get up from attack that could pierce through 5 transparent films.

Doing that is like serving himself up to Geats; he'll be outskilled to oblivion.

As for Ace's supernatural luck, his shtick is relatively minor, but it can benefit him a little or mildly inconvenience his opponents. The Ace of Luck (who is just a version of Ace that only has luck) was able to luck himself out of fodder attacks but still ends up getting captured and absorbed by the villain in Geats' movie. How does this translate in VSBW? His luck won't save his ass when he screws up so the luck is just there to make his fights just a bit easier.
Imagine Isamu's film slipping from his hand while preparing it up, or having him trip and fall when he's going after him. He gets stuck between the branches of a tree when he tries to use his jetpack. Maybe his projectiles miss by a small distance.

This doesn't mean anything lmao. Just because his tech is powered by a 4-D source doesn't mean that Isamu would be unable to disable it. He has no resistances on his profile so he'd be affected like anyone else would.

The thing about the bug net is that Geats can shoot at them or like dodge and jump. He ain't going to be a sitting duck.

 

[Kachon123]

What I mean to say is that he has experience fighting against other capable riders with the same tech he has as well as monsters that pose a threat to said riders for over 2000 years. Not only has Geats experienced being in every significant era of humanity normally, but also fought and consecutively won every round since his first battle royale/death game. The amount of skill he has racked up is no joke. Hence whatever tech Isamu has won't faze him in the slightest, since it's nothing new. Geats' tech is mad advanced since it comes from 1000 years into the future, so it's like nothing to write home about.

Again, nothing you claimed proves that Geats will not be surprised my Isamu's tech. Isamu has gadgets specifically catered to him, by him to fit hit child-like mind. It's unlike anything Geats has seen. He fights using pencil-cases, toys, candy, and more. I'm not convinced in the slightest that his experience will be a significant factor here.

Was said hastily (hadn't eaten my lunch). Now I can elaborate.
Geats' Magnum AnPr allows him to visualize landing points and predicted trajectories of his own and others' attacks. Meaning he should be able to figure out where Isamu's attacks would go and happen, allowing him to just outmaneouver and avoid it in general. Even without AnPr, he's skilled enough to avoid them just fine. Revolve On allows Geats to switch armor positions of his buckles on the fly and can be used to dodge very well. When using magnum, he already outranges Isamu according to their profiles so he can manage that too.

That's not even close to enough to dodge 8 of these placed all around the battlefield. They sense the target and continue to fire until it stops breathing. As for range, that's simply a profile issue. According to the range page, users of firearms have the same range that Geats does:

Hundreds of Meters: 100 - 1,000 m

• The distance that you can reach with a bow & arrow/crossbow.
• The distance that you can perceive without a scope; average firing range for firearms

If he's within Geats' range of fire, I don't see why Geats won't be able to just snipe his hand. Keep in mind he can also shoot from his wrists or shins depending on where Magnum's placed, so any blind spots Isamu will have are just a bullet away from giving Geats a win. When Geats gets into grab range with Isamu, he can most likely just snatch away the film with his superior LS and be done with it.

Isamu has no blinds spots. As I mentioned before his backpack blades attack and defend on their own. Any projectiles shot by Geats would get intercepted before they reach Isamu. He can also deploy 3 Underdog Men bots that each have >4x Geats' AP which can fight and protect him while Isamu stays back and shoots his projectiles.

Doing that is like serving himself up to Geats; he'll be outskilled to oblivion.

What? How would Isamu using his sword and shield to defend against long-ranged gunfire result in him getting outskilled? You're not making sense here.

As for Ace's supernatural luck, his shtick is relatively minor, but it can benefit him a little or mildly inconvenience his opponents. The Ace of Luck (who is just a version of Ace that only has luck) was able to luck himself out of fodder attacks but still ends up getting captured and absorbed by the villain in Geats' movie. How does this translate in VSBW? His luck won't save his ass when he screws up so the luck is just there to make his fights just a bit easier.
Imagine Isamu's film slipping from his hand while preparing it up, or having him trip and fall when he's going after him. He gets stuck between the branches of a tree when he tries to use his jetpack. Maybe his projectiles miss by a small distance.

I'm sorry but no. If most of what it does is help him get out of fodder attacks then I'm not going to accept any argument claiming it somehow will affect Isamu's own movements and attacks.

The thing about the bug net is that Geats can shoot at them or like dodge and jump. He ain't going to be a sitting duck.

So while fighting 3 Underdog Men robots, getting shot at by 8 machine guns from all angles, and chased by homing missiles, Geats will be able to also somehow avoid or destroy Isamu's bug net? Please be realistic.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Again, nothing you claimed proves that Geats will not be surprised my Isamu's tech. Isamu has gadgets specifically catered to him, by him to fit hit child-like mind. It's unlike anything Geats has seen. He fights using pencil-cases, toys, candy, and more. I'm not convinced in the slightest that his experience will be a significant factor here.

Like the most that this aspect of Isamu will bring out of Geats is him acknowledging his creativity then moving on into the fight. This isn't something that's shocking enough for him to go ballistic or something that will throw a curve ball at his experience. This is to argue that he'll be able to deal with Isamu's tech, no matter how outlandish or unconventional it might appear. Did you know Geats canonically has used a water hose to beat monsters? Did you know he blocked a giant monster's attack with an egg just because he believed there was some powerup that he needed to wake up? Yea, he's also no stranger to unconventional weapons or thinking outside the box.

That's not even close to enough to dodge 8 of these placed all around the battlefield. They sense the target and continue to fire until it stops breathing. As for range, that's simply a profile issue. According to the range page, users of firearms have the same range that Geats does:

Sensing the target doesn't naturally guarantee that these bots can accurately fire at Geats without him being able to dodge with ease, especially in an open area such as Central Park. In contrast, Magnum Forms have an auto-aim function in addition to the other AnPrs. And Geats already resists that by just pure skill.

Isamu has no blinds spots. As I mentioned before his backpack blades attack and defend on their own. Any projectiles shot by Geats would get intercepted before they reach Isamu. He can also deploy 3 Underdog Men bots that each have >4x Geats' AP which can fight and protect him while Isamu stays back and shoots his projectiles.

I referred to the places Isamu can't cover with his film as blind spots. Also some of his attacks (ranged and melee) cause explosions so if he can't cover his back well enough, he might not even need to go through the film. AoE explosions can also deal with the other bots and such, along with the fact he has a machine gun of his own to mow down his opposition.
Do not assume Geats' AP will stay constant like that. His empowerment is passive during fights and while it won't shoot up to oneshot territory in such a short amount of time, keep in mind the fact that Geats will eventually gain the AP advantage needed to go through the film and whatnot.

What? How would Isamu using his sword and shield to defend against long-ranged gunfire result in him getting outskilled? You're not making sense here.

That was an exaggeration on my end but Geats won't really have too much of a problem facing Isamu like that in general. If anything it'd remind him of his gladiator days.

I'm sorry but no. If most of what it does is help him get out of fodder attacks then I'm not going to accept any argument claiming it somehow will affect Isamu's own movements and attacks.

While we consider the fodder monsters to be well, fodder, these fodder are able to contend equally with the riders and especially end them if they're not careful. As it turns out, these fodders were attacking Geats while he's untransformed (and that Ace in the situation doesn't even know how to fight at all). Just because it works against fodders, it doesn't mean that non-fodders aren't affected. Shit like this are going to happen in straightforward combat such as this.

So while fighting 3 Underdog Men robots, getting shot at by 8 machine guns from all angles, and chased by homing missiles, Geats will be able to also somehow avoid or destroy Isamu's bug net? Please be realistic.

Geats has gone through countless armies of monsters as well as a chockful of gigantic monster battleships in the many lives he had lived. I think this would just be like a tuesday in the life of Ace Ukiyo.

 

[Kachon123]

Like the most that this aspect of Isamu will bring out of Geats is him acknowledging his creativity then moving on into the fight. This isn't something that's shocking enough for him to go ballistic or something that will throw a curve ball at his experience. This is to argue that he'll be able to deal with Isamu's tech, no matter how outlandish or unconventional it might appear. Did you know Geats canonically has used a water hose to beat monsters? Did you know he blocked a giant monster's attack with an egg just because he believed there was some powerup that he needed to wake up? Yea, he's also no stranger to unconventional weapons or thinking outside the box.

AGAIN, I never mentioned Isamu's experience or creativity as something that will give him some sort of one up on Geats. I mentioned his experience as a counter to your claim of Isamu underestimating Geats.

Sensing the target doesn't naturally guarantee that these bots can accurately fire at Geats without him being able to dodge with ease, especially in an open area such as Central Park. In contrast, Magnum Forms have an auto-aim function in addition to the other AnPrs. And Geats already resists that by just pure skill.

Are you ignoring the top panel? They will be able to accurately fire at Geats and definitely apply puressure. Especially if there are 8 of them firing at extremely quick succession rates at equal speed.

I referred to the places Isamu can't cover with his film as blind spots. Also some of his attacks (ranged and melee) cause explosions so if he can't cover his back well enough, he might not even need to go through the film.

Again, he has no blind spots. His backpack weapons are on his back, which you are claiming to be his blind spot? How does that make sense?

AoE explosions can also deal with the other bots and such, along with the fact he has a machine gun of his own to mow down his opposition.

Each of his bots have >4x higher durability than Geats' AP and are agile as well. They're not going down easily at all. Each of them will take effort to take down especially since they can't feel pain and can each self-destruct in a large AoE explosion (which has far higher AP than their striking strength).

Do not assume Geats' AP will stay constant like that. His empowerment is passive during fights and while it won't shoot up to oneshot territory in such a short amount of time, keep in mind the fact that Geats will eventually gain the AP advantage needed to go through the film and whatnot.

No he will not. The transparent film scales FAR above Isamu's AP. Isamu's AP can easily oneshot characters who already scale well above 16 kilotons. That's a large scaling chain that Geats' empowerment can not overcome when he's already being pressured by much else.

That was an exaggeration on my end but Geats won't really have too much of a problem facing Isamu like that in general. If anything it'd remind him of his gladiator days.

If Geats is literally just shooting bullets at him Isamu can just stand there and block with his shield. He has much higher AP/dura so it's less of an issue for him, especially when he ca deploy several Underdog Men from his backpack while doing so to fight Geats while he continues to block.

While we consider the fodder monsters to be well, fodder, these fodder are able to contend equally with the riders and especially end them if they're not careful. As it turns out, these fodders were attacking Geats while he's untransformed (and that Ace in the situation doesn't even know how to fight at all). Just because it works against fodders, it doesn't mean that non-fodders aren't affected. Shit like this are going to happen in straightforward combat such as this.

And it's still extremely generous to say that his luck would affect the mechanics of Isamu's tech. That's so far-fetched.

Geats has gone through countless armies of monsters as well as a chockful of gigantic monster battleships in the many lives he had lived. I think this would just be like a tuesday in the life of Ace Ukiyo.

No, it will not be like a Tuesday for Ace Ukiyo because Underdog Men are faster than him and have higher dura, Isamu has far higher AP than him, 8 machine gun fire counts as several danmaku, and homing missiles exploding is several meters of AoE. Again, you need to be realistic.

 

[Jerry59]

Are you ignoring the top panel? They will be able to accurately fire at Geats and definitely apply puressure. Especially if there are 8 of them firing at extremely quick succession rates at equal speed.

What does speed equal have to do with attack speed anyway? Their speed just gets multiply down, and blitzing a fodder doesn’t mean they’d blitz someone comparable to these dudes themself, unless you have scan ofc. Even base Phoenix Man no-diffed one of them, and the skill difference between that children's show disguised dude wannabe and Geats is just laughable

These weapons were able to instantly kill a monster who scale above 16.06 kilotons

Isamu's AP can easily oneshot characters who already scale well above 16 kilotons

Good to know because what's shown is his backpack slashing PM multiple times, and they still scale below 32.12 KT anyway

I'm sorry but no. If most of what it does is help him get out of fodder attacks then I'm not going to accept any argument claiming it somehow will affect Isamu's own movements and attacks.

And it's still extremely generous to say that his luck would affect the mechanics of Isamu's tech. That's so far-fetched.

Ngl I might not call that supernatural luck bad at all. As Slash said, these fodder are able to contend equally with the riders and especially end them if they're not careful, and they were attacking Geats while he's untransformed. Things will just randomly play out to have it so it’s in Geat's favor, there's a chance he somehow gains an advantage or Isamu ****** up even the slightest. Most importantly nobody cares about you not accepting it anyway cuz It's supernatural for a reason aye!

Anyways, we are talking about a guy who has thousands of years of throwing hands and the like and can deal with entire armies. Is that so hard to understand ? There's Dapaan, who can overlay information to visualize landing point and predicted trajectory with Magnum, and also has mastery over ranged weapons, yet he was unable to land a single hit on Geats
Yea Underdog Men and transparent barriers, so what? Geats can just dodge and break the octotanks while outskilling the Underdogs. We’re talking about the guy who beat Kiyotaka in a 9-B fight and has fine luck to cover the differences cmon now And lol, 100% chance Geats won't just stand there shooting in the films or things stupid like that, and Isamu will eventually run out of most items to defend himself effectively

 

[Kachon123]

What does speed equal have to do with attack speed anyway? Their speed just gets multiply down, and blitzing a fodder doesn’t mean they’d blitz someone comparable to these dudes themself, unless you have scan ofc. Even base Phoenix Man no-diffed one of them, and the skill difference between that children's show disguised dude wannabe and Geats is just laughable

I never said that they would blitz Geats. Not sure how you interpreted that from my words. At equal speed, the gunfire of Isamu's attacks would still be capable of pressuring Geats. That's a fact.

Good to know because what's shown is his backpack slashing PM multiple times, and they still scale below 32.12 KT anyway

Geats is 3 Kilotons so I'm unsure how that's at all relevant. Isamu can replicate the same feats with or without using multiple slashes on Geats due to the large gap in stats and the lethality of buzz-saws.

Ngl I might not call that supernatural luck bad at all. As Slash said, these fodder are able to contend equally with the riders and especially end them if they're not careful, and they were attacking Geats while he's untransformed. Things will just randomly play out to have it so it’s in Geat's favor, there's a chance he somehow gains an advantage or Isamu ****** up even the slightest. Most importantly nobody cares about you not accepting it anyway cuz It's supernatural for a reason aye!

And nobody cares about nonexistent supernatural luck feats. If there are actual feats of his luck being able to alter the mechanics of enemy technology, send them and I'll concede this point, otherwise yall can make a CRT or keep it to yourselves.

Anyways, we are talking about a guy who has thousands of years of throwing hands and the like and can deal with entire armies. Is that so hard to understand ? There's Dapaan, who can overlay information to visualize landing point and predicted trajectory with Magnum, and also has mastery over ranged weapons, yet he was unable to land a single hit on Geats
Yea Underdog Men and transparent barriers, so what? Geats can just dodge and break the octotanks while outskilling the Underdogs. We’re talking about the guy who beat Kiyotaka in a 9-B fight and has fine luck to cover the differences cmon now And lol, 100% chance Geats won't just stand there shooting in the films or things stupid like that, and Isamu will eventually run out of most items to defend himself effectively

Yeah but no he's not going to just "outskill" the 3 Underdog Men when they have much higher durability than he had AP and are unable to feel pain meaning they only go down when they are physically unable to move. While doing that he has to deal with the octotanks and Isamu himself fighting with several slashing limbs each of which can sever limbs and likely bisect Geats whole. Being able to fight armies and avoid gunfire does not mean that you are untouchable and will somehow be able to handle all this while at a stat disadvantage. It's ridiculous wank.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The balancing act on the supernatural luck is real lol

To weigh in on something: Personally I'm not a big fan of "he fought for x many years so he is super skilled" as a super weightful skill showing. Realistically speaking skill probably behaves asymptotically. Practice is more a prerequisite for skill than something that skill scales up with.
Neither do I like "he can deal with armies", because there are two options for those feats:
1. Those guys are significantly weaker than him in some way
2. The feat makes no sense
It is only super significant if the armies he deals with are already on par with Isamu in nearly every way. And I don't see that.

 

[Shadowslash125]

AGAIN, I never mentioned Isamu's experience or creativity as something that will give him some sort of one up on Geats. I mentioned his experience as a counter to your claim of Isamu underestimating Geats.

Then didn't that end like a few posts ago? I already conceded to this after you told me he's going for the kill. I only continued this argument about experience because I was under the assumption you were talking about that.

Are you ignoring the top panel? They will be able to accurately fire at Geats and definitely apply puressure. Especially if there are 8 of them firing at extremely quick succession rates at equal speed.

These robots are basically inferior versions of any other Kamen Riders utilizing the Magnum Buckle, which Geats has already overcome before. These robots only sense him when he breathes; Magnum Buckle users have Info Analysis and AnPr to deal with their opponents, and Geats no-sold one without his own Magnum Buckle. 8 inferior copies of Magnum Buckle Users isn't going to be "pressure" for our resident fox boy.

Again, he has no blind spots. His backpack weapons are on his back, which you are claiming to be his blind spot? How does that make sense?

Isamu wears shorts. His legs can be exposed from the back. Explosion AoE can probably hit behind his legs.

No he will not. The transparent film scales FAR above Isamu's AP. Isamu's AP can easily oneshot characters who already scale well above 16 kilotons. That's a large scaling chain that Geats' empowerment can not overcome when he's already being pressured by much else.

Geats Riders can go far higher than you think. There's a point where three riders were able to completely shitstomp the final boss of the series in their base forms, and said boss was able to wipe the floor with them in their strongest forms just a few minutes prior. Their strongest forms being far far stronger than what their base forms can do. Like I said, it won't be immediate but he'll eventually be empowered enough to start dealing significant damage.

Geats is 3 Kilotons so I'm unsure how that's at all relevant. Isamu can replicate the same feats with or without using multiple slashes on Geats due to the large gap in stats and the lethality of buzz-saws.

4.7 KT. It's at the very first thread post by OP has given this value.

The balancing act on the supernatural luck is real lol

I am not getting this, please elaborate.

And it's still extremely generous to say that his luck would affect the mechanics of Isamu's tech. That's so far-fetched.

And nobody cares about nonexistent supernatural luck feats. If there are actual feats of his luck being able to alter the mechanics of enemy technology, send them and I'll concede this point, otherwise yall can make a CRT or keep it to yourselves.

In none of my posts have I insinuated that his supernatural luck will affect the working of Isamu's technology.

Imagine Isamu's film slipping from his hand while preparing it up, or having him trip and fall when he's going after him. He gets stuck between the branches of a tree when he tries to use his jetpack. Maybe his projectiles miss by a small distance.

The only closest thing I've touched about Isamu's tech is that maybe hs projectiles will miss and that's just it. Ace's luck works in tandem with his surroundings. In this scan, the monsters after him gets affected like so: getting hit by rocks while climbing to get to Ace, slipping on seaweed and tripping on a fallen monster. Ace himself falls onto a float that cushions his fall. And when it seems that they're surrounded, someone who hasn't appeared since the early parts of Geats is just magically nearby to save their skins. His luck is so good like that to the point the main villain snatched and absorbed him to get his luck and power himself up to completely defeat Geats. Isamu is going to get inconvenienced by his luck in some way that makes sense with their location.
And of course it's going to be far-fetched! It's not called supernatural luck for nothing, y'know?

 

[BERRIES555]

For the skill thing, Ace’s scaling is pretty simple. Ace was able to stalemate Ikki, who in turn scales to the likes of Touma. Now, the reason why this is impressive is due to how skilled and talented Touma is. In the start of the series, Touma went from being a bookstore owner to becoming a Sword of Logos within the span of a few weeks. Now, the Sword of Logos is an organization comprised of histories greatest swordsman.

Touma would then fight against Ryoga and his Ocean History. OH’s ability is to skip moments in time, similar to King Crimson from Jojo. The reason why this is important is due to the fact Touma, off of first encounter, was able parry an attack from Ryoga after he used OH. Touma, mid attack, realized time was erased and proceeded to predict where Ryoga would appear after OH and parry the attack. This was middle of series Touma.

By the end of the series, Touma would not only get better experience through various Wonder Books but also scales above people like Rintaro, who has the collective experience and skills of every previous swordsman of the Sword of Logos. That version of Touma fought Ikki, and Ace was able to stalemate Ikki.

As for the luck thing, it’s most like a hinderance. Things like random objects breaking Ace’s fall or third parties randomly appearing to help out Ace.

 

[Shadowslash125]

For the skill thing, Ace’s scaling is pretty simple. Ace was able to stalemate Ikki, who in turn scales to the likes of Touma. Now, the reason why this is impressive is due to how skilled and talented Touma is. In the start of the series, Touma went from being a bookstore owner to becoming a Sword of Logos within the span of a few weeks. Now, the Sword of Logos is an organization comprised of histories greatest swordsman.

Touma would then fight against Ryoga and his Ocean History. OH’s ability is to skip moments in time, similar to King Crimson from Jojo. The reason why this is important is due to the fact Touma, off of first encounter, was able parry an attack from Ryoga after he used OH. Touma, mid attack, realized time was erased and proceeded to predict where Ryoga would appear after OH and parry the attack. This was middle of series Touma.

By the end of the series, Touma would not only get better experience through various Wonder Books but also scales above people like Rintaro, who has the collective experience and skills of every previous swordsman of the Sword of Logos. That version of Touma fought Ikki, and Ace was able to stalemate Ikki.

As for the luck thing, it’s most like a hinderance. Things like random objects breaking Ace’s fall or third parties randomly appearing to help out Ace.

Don't forget Touma is able to defeat two different Kamen Rider Caliburs whose precog is so potent he can see the end of their timelines.
And also Geats had to face both Ikki AND Vice, who should be just as skilled as Ikki.

 

[BERRIES555]

Also I want to point out that while the AP difference is pretty big, it’s nothing Ace can’t deal with. Unironically, it might be worse for Isamu. Ace’s power derives from his Desire, his goal is to find his mother and any defeat is, in his eyes, an obstacle to finding her. Doesn’t help the guy is pretty paranoid. As soon as Ace realizes the power difference, Desire Amp is building up.

Desire Amps allow characters to keep up with people who were dozens of times stronger than themselves, although considering Isamu isn’t dozens of times stronger than Ace, he wouldn’t get that big of a Desire Amp than he’s used to. Just matching Isamu is AP.

Not only that, RPL is also a thing for Ace. Weaker characters like Keiwa were able to oneshot enemies who previously overwhelmed him in fights.

 

[BERRIES555]

Don't forget Touma is able to defeat two different Kamen Rider Caliburs whose precog is so potent he can see the end of their timelines.
And also Geats had to face both Ikki AND Vice, who should be just as skilled as Ikki.

Yeah I forgot to mention, Calibur’s ability allows him to relive various timelines. He went through “countless” lives, fighting many battles, gaining various weapons and was still not as good as a swordsman than Touma.

Ace’s resume is far more than “he’s 2000 years old and he’s fought for a long time”. He’s outskilling people with generations worth of combined knowledge and experience, scales to those who can defeat time erasers via instinctual skills, and massively outperforms naturally talented people like BoS Touma or Keiwa.

 

[Kachon123]

These robots are basically inferior versions of any other Kamen Riders utilizing the Magnum Buckle, which Geats has already overcome before. These robots only sense him when he breathes; Magnum Buckle users have Info Analysis and AnPr to deal with their opponents, and Geats no-sold one without his own Magnum Buckle. 8 inferior copies of Magnum Buckle Users isn't going to be "pressure" for our resident fox boy.

Again, his tech would not work due to Isamu's bug net. You have to pick one. Is he avoiding machine gun fire from 8 angles while using info analysis to find out how they work and subsequently take them out or is he trying to deal with Isamu layering his bug net with homing missile fire + 3 Underdog Men? He can't do both at once, and no matter which he does, he's going to eventually get overwhelmed because that's not even close to all that Isamu has. Geats still has no answer to getting flash-frozen while all this is happening.

Also don't forget that Isamu as Info Analysis of his own.

Geats Riders can go far higher than you think. There's a point where three riders were able to completely shitstomp the final boss of the series in their base forms, and said boss was able to wipe the floor with them in their strongest forms just a few minutes prior. Their strongest forms being far far stronger than what their base forms can do. Like I said, it won't be immediate but he'll eventually be empowered enough to start dealing significant damage.

Significant damage is a long-shot. Isamu's shields can quite literally TANK attacks from characters who already scale far above Isamu and all of the rest of his gear. He would not be able to get through a single layer since their specifically resistant to sudden impacts on top of their already great durability. Isamu can layer 5 if not more for defense.

Isamu wears shorts. His legs can be exposed from the back. Explosion AoE can probably hit behind his legs.

You're grasping for straws here man. Isamu's mech legs can obviously cover his legs as well. On top of that, his invisible shield literally blocked an AoE explosion of several thousand kilometers. This point can be laid to rest I hope.

Isamu is going to get inconvenienced by his luck in some way that makes sense with their location.
And of course it's going to be far-fetched! It's not called supernatural luck for nothing, y'know?

Exactly, he's going to be inconvenienced. That's all it is. Minor stuff. Making his attacks miss their mark or making him randomly fly into objets is beyond the limits shown.

Also no, it being called supernatural luck does not mean that its applications go beyond what it's shown (the environment vs manipulating the actual opponent).

 

[Shadowslash125]

Again, his tech would not work due to Isamu's bug net. You have to pick one. Is he avoiding machine gun fire from 8 angles while using info analysis to find out how they work and subsequently take them out or is he trying to deal with Isamu layering his bug net with homing missile fire + 3 Underdog Men? He can't do both at once, and no matter which he does, he's going to eventually get overwhelmed because that's not even close to all that Isamu has. Geats still has no answer to getting flash-frozen while all this is happening.

As I and now Berries has said, he's more than skilled enough to do all of the above on his own. Even then, Central Park is open enough for him to manoeuvre through the trees or in the air (he's pretty acrobatic all the time). The machine guns will only be a problem to him if they're completely omnidirectional; 8 different angles aren't going to cut it.
I'll get this out of the way now, Geats won't have an answer to getting flash-frozen or having his tech be disabled if they hit. Even without his AnPr, he's still able to dodge out of the way or have him be on the defensive by occupying him with his attacks. Sure atm they won't do as much damage but Isamu's dura is still way lower than his gear, so he'll still have the incentive to defend himself. Geats can fire from his wrists as well in addition to his gun, hence the danmaku. Coupled in by the fact he can change his gun into machine gun mode, Geats can be chipping away at the durability of everything Isamu throws at him, and its not counting the explosion of every bullet fired. The bug net isn't actually even a bug net; it's just 4 points that become connected by what I assume to be threads that then lead to the disabling electricity. Geats can well... Just jump high enough and he'll be fine, among the various other ways he can avoid an admittedly easy to notice trap even amidst the chaos. He's not going to be a sitting duck like G5.
Having him be overwhelmed will also fail hard on Isamu since that'd just accelerate his empowerment.

Some of Isamu's kit should require him to set up, no? Not all of them would be fast while Geats just needs to insert another buckle and transform. Switching the armor position is as simple as turning the driver itself. I'm fairly sure Isamu has some other fast preps for certain stuff in his kit, but it's worth pointing out.

Also don't forget that Isamu as Info Analysis of his own.

His Info Analysis seems to be dependant on him sticking his port thing into the tech he needs to analyse and his mask only tells him of Geats' physical stats so I don't think it's superior to what Geats has. It can even be argued that Isamu won't be able to analyse this advanced tech from 1000 years in the future. The tech on its own is advanced enough to utilise and manifest its users' desires and soul in the form of their id cores, along with being able to completely erase the whole world including the concept of a person's desires manifested into the cores.
Geats has his own unique info analysis and the one from using the Magnum buckle.

Significant damage is a long-shot. Isamu's shields can quite literally TANK attacks from characters who already scale far above Isamu and all of the rest of his gear. He would not be able to get through a single layer since their specifically resistant to sudden impacts on top of their already great durability. Isamu can layer 5 if not more for defense.

The empowerment should make Geats on equal grounds with whatever AP/Dura Isamu scales to eventually, so by that time, Geats will have gotten used to the situation and come up with a way to get a win out of this match. Geats' attacks aren't just oneshots either, it's going to be a danmaku fest chockful of explosions with his Magnum. Or he could just risk it and get close to rip it away with his superior LS. He should be acrobatic enough to grab the robot limbs and throw him away or rip his backpack from Isamu. Granted Geats has a higher chance of being tagged but he can squeeze out a win from this too.

Exactly, he's going to be inconvenienced. That's all it is. Minor stuff. Making his attacks miss their mark or making him randomly fly into objets is beyond the limits shown.

Also no, it being called supernatural luck does not mean that its applications go beyond what it's shown (the environment vs manipulating the actual opponent).

Finally we can close this part of the discussion. There is however an argument that can be made for random objects flying at him, like branches, newspaper and whatnot, but I digress. His luck is there to troll and annoy Isamu.

I completely forgot about Monster Form!

Geats's monster form is akin to Donkey Kong's fists with Luffy's elasticity and size enlargement.

Geats on his own has Class G LS, allowing him to knock away opponents in close range, grab and throw them, rip parts out, crush and whatnot. Geats in Monster Form has slightly better LS in addition to being able to stretch his limbs and increase the size of his fist. Ergo, Geats can just enlarge his fist and stretch all the way to Isamu. The flash-freeze will be blocked by the arm guards of Monster Form while also being too large to completely freeze his whole hand. The bug net projectiles just get punched away in the process and would just break through the fences before any electricity can hit Geats' arms. Even then the disable attack has to actually hit his belt to take effect. Once in range, Geats can just casually grab away the film and anything else blocking its way and just finger flick Isamu. The explosion would just be the fireworks at this point.

 

[Kachon123]

I'm going to say this and leave it here.


All I've been hearing from the Geats supporters is that he's somehow going to avoid getting hit a single time in a 4v1 by people faster than him, stronger than him, more durable than him. He will avoid getting hit by several explosive weapons, self destruction explosives, gunfire from multiple different weapons, saw-blades, among many others.

If you all seriously believe that he can do all this then there really is no point in debating because we could go on for days. I'll let other people decide because what you're arguing is a physical impossibility.

 

[Agnaa]

I'll take that as a vote for Isamu.

The scan I sent showed Isamu saying verbatim that he can "roll it up for portability." He an his Underdog Men robots can wrap their bodies in it to protect themselves from attacks.

When submitting Isamu you argued that it would take time for Isamu to set up the film, but when Shadowslash suggested that provided an opening, you responded with this. Are you now arguing that Isamu has the film already on by default?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I am not getting this, please elaborate.

You need to argue for a very specfic level of luck to, on one hand, say that it is good enough to avoid several enemies that "are able to contend equally with the riders and especially end them if they're not careful" while untransformed, yet, on the other hand, not be able to buy enough time against Kokken to get close and then stomp her.
Kokken is a pretty basic fighter compared to Isamu, so if we believe those dodging, RPL + boosting and luck arguments, I do wonder if he's in tier at all.

 

[Raiden38]

Isamu FRA

 

[BERRIES555]

AP and Speed both are covered with Desire Amps and RPL. Dodging attacks really isn’t that far fetch for Ace Imo. He’ll constantly gain increased speed via Desire and his scale to Touma proves that he can defend against attack which target his blind spots.

This fight comes down to if Ace can buy enough time with his precog and skill for his Desire eventually catch up to Isamu’s speed and attack. Or if Isamu can overwhelm Ace fast enough to defeat him before Desire can amp Ace. Personally, I’d go for the former due to his skill and precog. Personally leaning towards Ace, but you can sway me either direction.

 

[Kachon123]

I'll take that as a vote for Isamu.

When submitting Isamu you argued that it would take time for Isamu to set up the film, but when Shadowslash suggested that provided an opening, you responded with this. Are you now arguing that Isamu has the film already on by default?

Yes, in most situations, Isamu would take the time to set it up as a wall, as that is its intended use. However, in the scenario Shadowslash mentioned (gunfire from above), both Isamu and his Underdog Men should be fully capable of reacting and using the film as a cape-like defense.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Yea, I'm just gonna cast my vote for Geats.

 

[Jerry59]

Kokken's attack is an enormous gale slash afaik, so ofc Geats can get chipped down by her because he can't just dodge a wall of '"large-scale disaster". He's still in tier (especially since it still counts even if she has, at worst, a 5% chance of winning)

I'll just, vote Geats for Berries and Slash reasons eh (we are gonna get outvoted anyway)

 

[TsukasayaEmmaDCD]

Honestly, Geats has better odds at winning, given the skill and Ace being Ace

 

[DontTalkDT]

Kokken's attack is an enormous gale slash afaik, so ofc Geats can get chipped down by her because he can't just dodge a wall of '"large-scale disaster". He's still in tier (especially since it still counts even if she has, at worst, a 5% chance of winning)

The supernatural luck that is argued would include things like making her drop her sword or randomly slip, which would prevent her slashes regardless of their AoE.

And since Kokken's attacks are not faster than herself, Geats would easily dodge them via analytic prediction as long as they come from a far distance. Like, the radius of the AoE is 80m or so, judging by her AP feat. A guy that is supposed to be able to dodge attacks from a dozen sources simultaneously without trouble won't have any problem avoiding that until he is less than 100m away.
And thanks to the RPL being argued he probably has the stats to just tank a hit or two at that point... or y'know, the luck.

So yeah, I think if we argue that Geats reliably does what he is claimed to do against Isamu, then he's out of tier IMO.

 

[Agnaa]

The supernatural luck that is argued would include things like making her drop her sword or randomly slip, which would prevent her slashes regardless of their AoE.

And since Kokken's attacks are not faster than herself, Geats would easily dodge them via analytic prediction as long as they come from a far distance. Like, the radius of the AoE is 80m or so, judging by her AP feat. A guy that is supposed to be able to dodge attacks from a dozen sources simultaneously without trouble won't have any problem avoiding that until he is less than 100m away.
And thanks to the RPL being argued he probably has the stats to just tank a hit or two at that point... or y'know, the luck.

So yeah, I think if we argue that Geats reliably does what he is claimed to do against Isamu, then he's out of tier IMO.

To be fair, people were arguing here that the supernatural luck can do relevant things, but wouldn't do so very often.

But that dodging does sound pretty sus.

 

[DontTalkDT]

To be fair, people were arguing here that the supernatural luck can do relevant things, but wouldn't do so very often.

Ehhhh, if I look at how it's argued

The weapon somehow jams or just miss the mark because of Ace of Luck. Geats and Kamen Rider in general is able to withstand attacks with much higher potential than themselves. Others characters with high level of desire allowing them to amp themselves far beyond that, with Geats being the one with the most desire of them all.

Ngl I might not call that supernatural luck bad at all. As Slash said, these fodder are able to contend equally with the riders and especially end them if they're not careful, and they were attacking Geats while he's untransformed. Things will just randomly play out to have it so it’s in Geat's favor, there's a chance he somehow gains an advantage or Isamu ****** up even the slightest. Most importantly nobody cares about you not accepting it anyway cuz It's supernatural for a reason aye!

While we consider the fodder monsters to be well, fodder, these fodder are able to contend equally with the riders and especially end them if they're not careful. As it turns out, these fodders were attacking Geats while he's untransformed (and that Ace in the situation doesn't even know how to fight at all). Just because it works against fodders, it doesn't mean that non-fodders aren't affected. Shit like this are going to happen in straightforward combat such as this.

I don't think something that fends of several attackers while they are statistically way superior and the user "doesn't know how to fight at all", can logistically only activate to save him 5% of the time. Or at least that is unlikely.

(Also, if the tanking thing is true... well, that's just more points on closing in being easy)