Genos vs Cherish (Tiersetter Tourney R1M5)

[Agnaa]

Point 4:

Cherish can do more than just make him suicidal. She can make him apathetic and doubtful to the point where he does nothing. She can give him extreme fear so he cowers in a corner until it's considered an incap. She can make him like her and want to be her friend/give up on fighting her entirely.

There could be issues for whether that sort of thing is a likely move for her to make in-character.

Anyway, I'll assume this is a vote for Cherish, and add it.

 

[Apeironaxim]

There could be issues for whether that sort of thing is a likely move for her to make in-character.

i covered that in a previous post:

I would also like to say that Cherish's entire plan with joining the Slaughterhouse Nine was to slowly condition them to adore and be addicted to her. Doing so slowly because her power doesn't have lasting effects by itself without her actively exerting it, so she has to condition people the pavlov/traditional way for permanent effects, and very sudden spikes of love toward her would just make the more immune members like Siberian rip her apart. She is also seen making a bunch of guys love and adore her to be her personal servants for fun. This means Cherish's wincon isn't only inducing suicide, but also essentially incapping Genos by just making him not attack her/be her guard dog/plaything for the required time limit for it to count as a win. It's just the suicide thing is what most focus on. Whether she would go for this i do not know, but considering she wanted to try it, albeit in a slower way with people like complete powerhouse monsters with the S9 (though again her playing the long game was due to other context), i think it's an equally likely avenue for her, as she likes having people at her beck and call

Her main goal with even risking joining the band of psychopaths that is the S9 is because she was confident she could brainwash them to adore her. So it's definitely not far-fetched to say she would go that route as well. She also did do the doubt inducement thing to stop someone from attacking her

“No, stop,” she said. Too unspecific. ****. Still need to work on that. She hit him with as much doubt and indecision as she could manage to keep him from shooting her. Then she stalled all of the ‘music’ that flowed to and from that one point in the very front of his brain. She knew the music was her way of understanding and interpreting the biological processes that drove people’s emotions. By listening for it, she knew what they felt, knew what the emotions were tied to, vaguely.

So honestly, incap via love/adoration inducement is equally as valid as the suicide thing. And the doubt inducement would just likely happen anyway because she'd want to stop herself from being attacked first

 

[DMUA]

Point 3:

While it is true that Genos has longer range on his blasts, they're starting farther apart than either of them can effectively reach. Speed is also equalized, so they are both moving at peak human speeds. As such, it would take a while before either of them can reach the other.
Cherish has no reason to engage in a direct confrontation, and she can track Genos's position at all times. She can just hide somewhere and wait for him to enter her range.

The main thing is that he can still fly, giving him a bird's eye view and ability to get a good enough shot without crossing into her range. He also has enhanced senses... Though when I check it's just him saying that a person can't escape as they fly away, which is a bit weird when he also has flight and can clearly see where she's going, but eh

Point 4:

Cherish can do more than just make him suicidal. She can make him apathetic and doubtful to the point where he does nothing. She can give him extreme fear so he cowers in a corner until it's considered an incap. She can make him like her and want to be her friend/give up on fighting her entirely.

Her default move is having them die and... Granted, I am realizing there is somewhat of a delay between Genos triggering his Self Destruct and it properly going off, since Saitama slapping Mosquito Girl got him to just turn it off in disbelief, so she could see the glow and decide a different approach

Maybe I will change my mind to Cherish then though I really don't like the prospect of having yet another matchup like this

 

[Kachon123]

Genos should have Willpower listed on his profile for being a cyborg over 60% modification and surviving, which gives him resistance to empathic manipulation. I guess someone overlooked it.

 

[Agnaa]

Genos should have Willpower listed on his profile for being a cyborg over 60% modification and surviving, which gives him resistance to empathic manipulation. I guess someone overlooked it.

I'm not opposed to you whipping up a CRT for that now.

 

[Kachon123]

I'm not opposed to you whipping up a CRT for that now.

Done.

 

[MrTayman616]

I don't see how this would change anything. Does he still feel emotions? If so, her power should work just fine.

Why not? Genos's emotions are literally in a system. His body moves itself against his emotions even when he doesn't understand anything. His emotions changed everytime he copied someone else when he lost his memories + glitches.

since Saitama slapping Mosquito Girl got him to just turn it off in disbelief, so she could see the glow and decide a different approach

I don't think this could happen since everything there happens at super speeds. Seemingly able to do it before Mosquito girl could reach him in a short distance.

Cherish can do more than just make him suicidal. She can make him apathetic and doubtful to the point where he does nothing. She can give him extreme fear so he cowers in a corner until it's considered an incap. She can make him like her and want to be her friend/give up on fighting her entirely.

I don't think it works as Genos still continues to move even if it's against his emotions. When he lost all his memories, his body was still automatically moving, still fights etc

 

[DontTalkDT]

Why not? Genos's emotions are literally in a system. His body moves itself against his emotions even when he doesn't understand anything. His emotions changed everytime he copied someone else when he lost his memories + glitches.

I don't really buy that his whole mind is mechanical. If it were, he would basically be an android, not a cyborg. At that point you just wouldn't need his brain.
Maybe his memories are or maybe his tech just interferes with the memories in his brain. But I see only a tangential relation to emotions. Like, emotions are always influenced by memory, doesn't mean that the emotions mechanical.

 

[MrTayman616]

I don't really buy that his whole mind is mechanical. If it were, he would basically be an android, not a cyborg. At that point you just wouldn't need his brain.

I wouldn't say his entirety is mechanical, he still has his brain. But mechanical parts of him highly affects his memories, his emotions etc. As glitches etc completely affects his memories. It's controlled by his sytem, Cherish shouldn't be able to affect him at all.

 

[DMUA]

I don't think this could happen since everything there happens at super speeds. Seemingly able to do it before Mosquito girl could reach him in a short distance.

Speed is equal and attacks are relative, Cherish's emotional manipulation is definitely fast acting enough to react within that kind of window.

Why not? Genos's emotions are literally in a system.

As far as Worm's concerned, systems themselves can have emotions and be influenced by Shards. One of the most prominent Tinkers in the series is an AI who's code was radically altered after a Trigger event, machines with emotions aren't outside Cherish's wheelhouse.

“You’re a tinker.”

“This isn’t a revelation, Colin.”

“No. I mean, not just as far as the classification applies to you. You’re a parahuman. I don’t have time to hunt for it now, but at some point between now and a few years after your creation, you had a trigger event.”

“How can I be a parahuman if I’m not human to begin with?”

“I don’t know.

Interlude 16.y. For reference, this is a Trigger event:

It’s called the trigger event,” Lisa answered me, “Researchers theorize that for every person with powers out there, there’s one to five people with the potential for powers, who haven’t met the conditions necessary for a trigger event. You need to be pushed to the edge. Fight or flight responses pushed to their limits, further than the limits, even. Then your powers start to emerge.”

“Basically,” Alec said, “For your powers to manifest, you’re going to have to have something really shitty happen to you.”

Shell 4.3

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

It can easily be true but that 1000 ft is just not the range where it shows a drop in potency in any meaningful way. Idk why you'd go straight to assuming it's not real.

My bad, I meant to say it doesn't exist in any meaningful way in the series, and since 1000 feet is the range we have on the profile, any potency drop-off is basically a non-factor here

There could be issues for whether that sort of thing is a likely move for her to make in-character.

Fear was the first thing she threatened to do against Imp, I don't think it would be that out of character

The main thing is that he can still fly, giving him a bird's eye view and ability to get a good enough shot without crossing into her range. He also has enhanced senses... Though when I check it's just him saying that a person can't escape as they fly away, which is a bit weird when he also has flight and can clearly see where she's going, but eh

I feel like a bird's-eye view wouldn't do much if she's in a building or underground or wherever. If she needs to go up to reach him, she can always go to a higher floor of whatever building she's in.

Her default move is having them die

I feel like there's enough chance she does something else, or makes him stop before fully self-destructing, or combines suicide emotions with a desire to not hurt her, that it could be considered a win for Cherish

Why not? Genos's emotions are literally in a system.

So he still has emotions, so Cherish can manipulate them? I don't see why his emotions being stored somewhere else would make it completely impossible for Cherish to use her power on him.

His body moves itself against his emotions even when he doesn't understand anything.

Do you have a scan? Are you sure it's not just him acting against his own emotions?

His emotions changed everytime he copied someone else when he lost his memories + glitches.

I don't really understand how this would prove he can resist empathic manip. I think if anyone's set of memories fully changed, their emotional state would probably also change.

I don't think this could happen since everything there happens at super speeds. Seemingly able to do it before Mosquito girl could reach him in a short distance.

Speed is equalized, and that applies to attack speed too, which this is

I don't think it works as Genos still continues to move even if it's against his emotions. When he lost all his memories, his body was still automatically moving, still fights etc

Memories and emotions are two different things. They are often related, but just because you don't have any memories doesn't suddenly mean you don't have emotions either.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Arguments for Cherish seem to be more convincing. Cherish FRA

 

[MrTayman616]

Speed is equal and attacks are relative, Cherish's emotional manipulation is definitely fast acting enough to react within that kind of window.

And? Mosquito Girl was easily blitzing Genos there. It's way higher than his movement speed.

As far as Worm's concerned, systems themselves can have emotions and be influenced by Shards. One of the most prominent Tinkers in the series is an AI who's code was radically altered after a Trigger event, machines with emotions aren't outside Cherish's wheelhouse.

Isn't she(Dragon) a special case though? She was created by a tinker specialized at AI in the first place. How did her trigger event happen? How does her connection to Shards work?

I feel like there's enough chance she does something else, or makes him stop before fully self-destructing, or combines suicide emotions with a desire to not hurt her, that it could be considered a win for Cherish

She couldn't do that. Mosquito Girl who easily blitzes Genos + Which Genos can't even see her, attacking him with killing intent to take Genos's head, Genos is capable of self destructing before she travels this distance. Genos can use it against someone who easily blitz him, shows how fast it works compared to his speed as well. The moment it starts, she shouldn't be able to stop it.

I feel like a bird's-eye view wouldn't do much if she's in a building or underground or wherever. If she needs to go up to reach him, she can always go to a higher floor of whatever building she's in.

Genos can sense life forces and their locations though. In case Genos were to do it, she couldn't reach him regardless.

Do you have a scan? Are you sure it's not just him acting against his own emotions?

It's nothing like "I don't want to do it but i must". His body moves and acts regardless of his will. He doesn't even know how anything works yet his body does them anyway even if he wants it or not. Here

I don't really understand how this would prove he can resist empathic manip. I think if anyone's set of memories fully changed, their emotional state would probably also change.

Because it's not just him losing his memories and acting clueless, He sees a shy student and his entire being acts like that, as a playboy, as a (villain/bully?) etc. All of his acts happens while they have the same amount of knowledge of anything. I said it to show his glitches not only affect memories but emotional state to show it's connected to his mechanical being.

Speed is equalized, and that applies to attack speed too, which this is

This is even beyond Genos's speed too though? or equal speed here is as "even if a character's speed is X while it's reaction speed is 2X, All will be equal." type of thing?
How does it work for his cannons or explosion attacks etc.

Memories and emotions are two different things. They are often related, but just because you don't have any memories doesn't suddenly mean you don't have emotions either.

It's not only memory loss here. When he loses his memories, let's say he acts like he never did, yet in this case, his glitchles affects his emotional state based on the things he sees.

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

She couldn't do that. Mosquito Girl who easily blitzes Genos + Which Genos can't even see her, attacking him with killing intent to take Genos's head, Genos is capable of self destructing before she travels this distance. Genos can use it against someone who easily blitz him, shows how fast it works compared to his speed as well. The moment it starts, she shouldn't be able to stop it.

How do you know he could have self-destructed in that time if he literally didn't?
Also, Cherish was able to stop a guy from shooting her in the window it would have taken him to pull the trigger (maybe a second, tops).
And what if she also makes him not want to hurt her? That's something she does to pretty much everyone she fights.

Genos can sense life forces and their locations though. In case Genos were to do it, she couldn't reach him regardless.

As has been established in this thread, there are still living people in the city, just ones that morals don't apply to. Unless his life force sensing could differentiate one person from thousands of other people, I don't think he would be able to track her.

It's nothing like "I don't want to do it but i must". His body moves and acts regardless of his will. He doesn't even know how anything works yet his body does them anyway even if he wants it or not.

Again, do you have a scan? I think context is very important here.

Because it's not just him losing his memories and acting clueless, He sees a shy student and his entire being acts like that, as a playboy, as a (villain/bully?) etc. All of his acts happens while they have the same amount of knowledge of anything. I said it to show his glitches not only affect memories but emotional state to show it's connected to his mechanical being.

So his emotions are connected to him being a robot, how does that mean his emotions can't be manipulated at all? Again, powers work on Dragon, who is a literal AI made of code. I believe it's been established that Genos still has a human brain, so why wouldn't Cherish's power work on him?

This is even beyond Genos's speed too though? or equal speed here is as "even if a character's speed is X while it's reaction speed is 2X, All will be equal." type of thing?
How does it work for his cannons or explosion attacks etc.

The explosion speed would be faster than his normal combat speed, but again, I don't see why it would be too fast for Cherish to react to, or why she wouldn't prevent him from doing that in the first place by making him not want to hurt her.

It's not only memory loss here. When he loses his memories, let's say he acts like he never did, yet in this case, his glitchles affects his emotional state based on the things he sees.

I seriously don't understand how this would prove he resists empathic manip. He's not glitched for this fight, and just because he had erratic emotions doesn't mean they couldn't be manipulated. His robotic nature affects his emotions, but that doesn't mean nothing else can affect them.

 

[DMUA]

And? Mosquito Girl was easily blitzing Genos there. It's way higher than his movement speed.

Evidently he can react to said blitz being interrupted and turn it off, so I don't think this means anything. Even if someone's way faster than you, doing something with no motion is just going to land first, it goes both ways to Cherish and him.

Isn't she(Dragon) a special case though? She was created by a tinker specialized at AI in the first place. How did her trigger event happen? How does her connection to Shards work?

She's a special case in that she somehow was able to gain emotions, Genos already has them in the first place and maybe stores them weirdly. I don't remember what exactly the event was, just that Defiant noticed it happened at some point and she's perfectly able to access her own Tinker abilities for mass production and replicating the designs of other Tinkers, which isn't something you can really do without shard input given how advanced the tech is.

 

[MrTayman616]

How do you know he could have self-destructed in that time if he literally didn't?

...What? The manga portrays it as "If Saitama wasn't there, he'd self destruct". It's pretty clear there.

Also, Cherish was able to stop a guy from shooting her in the window it would have taken him to pull the trigger (maybe a second, tops).

Ok. Though a second is too long for the core scene.

Again, do you have a scan? I think context is very important here.

I sent it before. anyway here.

So his emotions are connected to him being a robot, how does that mean his emotions can't be manipulated at all? Again, powers work on Dragon, who is a literal AI made of code. I believe it's been established that Genos still has a human brain, so why wouldn't Cherish's power work on him?

Uh, we don't know if Cherish's powers work can affect Dragon at all though? not to say her abilities seemingly work via manipulating brain chemicals. It shouldn't work against Genos since seemingly his core is the factor here.

Evidently he can react to said blitz being interrupted and turn it off, so I don't think this means anything. Even if someone's way faster than you, doing something with no motion is just going to land first, it goes both ways to Cherish and him.

Or Genos's thinking process is faster than his physical capability? Don't know what it makes of it, but it's clear that he can use it against someone who's easily blitzing him. (He won't need it anyway as Cherish shouldn't be able to affect him)

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

...What? The manga portrays it as "If Saitama wasn't there, he'd self destruct". It's pretty clear there.

Nothing saying he wouldn't have self-destructed after Mosquito Girl reached him

Ok. Though a second is too long for the core scene.

Says who? From the scans I've seen we have no idea how long it would take him to detonate, just "he probably would have exploded before this fast character reached him" which with speed equal could definitely be longer than a second

I sent it before. anyway here.

You literally didn't but ok
From the scan it looks like he can stop himself even if his body takes over, no reason he wouldn't do that here while feeling the strongest emotions of his life

Uh, we don't know if Cherish's powers work can affect Dragon at all though? not to say her abilities seemingly work via manipulating brain chemicals. It shouldn't work against Genos since seemingly his core is the factor here.

But he still has a brain, right? Therefore she should be able to manipulate his brain? I get his core influences his emotional state, but there's no reason to assume the brain wouldn't also have an effect.

Or Genos's thinking process is faster than his physical capability? Don't know what it makes of it, but it's clear that he can use it against someone who's easily blitzing him. (He won't need it anyway as Cherish shouldn't be able to affect him)

Get faster reaction speed accepted on the profile then. Anyways, it says his speed scales directly from being able to keep up with this character who is supposedly blitzing him.

 

[MrTayman616]

Nothing saying he wouldn't have self-destructed after Mosquito Girl reached him

He's the one starting and stopping the self-destruct here you know? Mosquito Girl was at her last attack where she was going for the kill stated by herself. Genos's self destruct is started by him. It's also stated this is to "take the enemy with him". The self destruct is to destroy both the enemy and himself. not "enemy kills you, but after that you will self destruct and kill the enemy"

Says who? From the scans I've seen we have no idea how long it would take him to detonate, just "he probably would have exploded before this fast character reached him" which with speed equal could definitely be longer than a second

...They have equal speed doesn't mean the time it takes for the core to explode is higher though? The moment Genos starts it, it would take the same amount of time it would take when he fought against Mosquito Girl.

But he still has a brain, right? Therefore she should be able to manipulate his brain? I get his core influences his emotional state, but there's no reason to assume the brain wouldn't also have an effect.

His core and system here is shown to be playing the crucial role here. Not the brain. Otherwise memory loss based on glitches or personality problems etc doesn't make sense if his brain is supposed to be the effective part here. It's shown to be that way, so i don't see a reason to go based on assumption that maybe brain could play a little part or might do something effective when it's shown different.

Get faster reaction speed accepted on the profile then. Anyways, it says his speed scales directly from being able to keep up with this character who is supposedly blitzing him.

His reaction speed doesn't matter here since the core is going to explode within that timeframe regardless though? It would be required to give Genos reaction speed to start it that fast, but it shouldn't be required here no?

Not that he'll need it.

 

[Jerry59]

Bump

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

...They have equal speed doesn't mean the time it takes for the core to explode is higher though? The moment Genos starts it, it would take the same amount of time it would take when he fought against Mosquito Girl.

Yes, speed equal does mean the time it takes for the core to explode is higher, since that's attack speed.
Anyways, I don't think there's really a point in arguing this since Cherish would be making him not want to kill/hurt her on top of whatever else she was doing, which would stop him from self-destructing in the first place

His core and system here is shown to be playing the crucial role here. Not the brain. Otherwise memory loss based on glitches or personality problems etc doesn't make sense if his brain is supposed to be the effective part here. It's shown to be that way, so i don't see a reason to go based on assumption that maybe brain could play a little part or might do something effective when it's shown different.

Do you have any proof that Genos's core actually stores his emotions and not just his memories? I get that his emotions were changing when his core was glitching, but of course there would be an effect on your emotional state if all your memories changed, I don't get how that proves his brain does nothing. Why would he have a brain at all if it didn't do anything?
Actually, now that I think about it, is there even any proof that his memories are stored in his core? The OPM wiki doesn't have a single mention anywhere of his memories being in his core, it just says his core is his power source.

 

[MrTayman616]

Why would he have a brain at all if it didn't do anything?

That's just making an assumption. With that logic, why would these glitches or stuff affect his memories and emotions if he still has his brain? It simply doesn't and doesn't matter. The series shown us how it affects him. I don't know why he has his brain, surely it does something but just because he has it doesn't mean it's for memories or emotions when it's already shown it's otherwise.

Is there even any proof that his memories are stored in his core?

Both anime ova(Literally lost his memories because of getting hit by Saitama, which we see there were glitches etc, we also see his system getting fixed the instant he's getting his memories back etc.) and manga says it.

The OPM wiki doesn't have a single mention anywhere of his memories being in his core, it just says his core is his power source.

Many fandom don't really include much to their wiki(OPM wiki is actually rather good though

Genos seemingly doesn't even have any blood in his brain, which many brain chemicals travel through bloodstream etc.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Cherish FRA

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

That's just making an assumption. With that logic, why would these glitches or stuff affect his memories and emotions if he still has his brain? It simply doesn't and doesn't matter. The series shown us how it affects him. I don't know why he has his brain, surely it does something but just because he has it doesn't mean it's for memories or emotions when it's already shown it's otherwise.

Hmm yup just ignore everything else I said there. Again, do you have any evidence at all that his emotions are stored in his core? I get that his emotional state was changing when his memories were glitching, but, once again, of course your emotional state would change if all your memories did; memories have a pretty strong influence on emotions.

Genos seemingly doesn't even have any blood in his brain, which many brain chemicals travel through bloodstream etc.

The first scan is only showing a tiny bit of his brain (and it looks to me like there's some blood on it anyways) and the second scan very clearly shows him massively bleeding from his head

 

[MrTayman616]

The first scan is only showing a tiny bit of his brain (and it looks to me like there's some blood on it anyways) and the second scan very clearly shows him massively bleeding from his head

...It's not blood. It's the rain from nuclear fission which is why it's colored like that. Not the way Murata draws blood.

As for the first scan, what? no visible blood at all lmao.

emotional state would change if all your memories did

When he lost his memories, his emotional state changes over glitches (he doesn't gain a part of his memories from this or something like that). He sometimes bullies, sometimes act like a kohai etc. Like this for example. (It wouldn't happen if it were just a memory loss since it would be like a reset to you but the change of emotions would be different than this)

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

...It's not blood. It's the rain from nuclear fission which is why it's colored like that. Not the way Murata draws blood.

Ok, but that picture isn't even showing his brain

As for the first scan, what? no visible blood at all lmao.

It's probably a stylistic choice, I doubt the artist was thinking "hmm yes there is no blood in his brain so therefore he also has no brain chemicals" when he drew that. Anyways, you would still need a statement or feat or whatever to prove he has no emotion-carrying brain chemicals.

When he lost his memories, his emotional state changes over glitches (he doesn't gain a part of his memories from this or something like that). He sometimes bullies, sometimes act like a kohai etc. Like this for example. (It wouldn't happen if it were just a memory loss since it would be like a reset to you but the change of emotions would be different than this)

This looks more like changes in his personality as a whole rather than specifically his emotional state

 

[Jerry59]

Aye Cherish FRA

 

[Agnaa]

We now enter grace.