Is Reiatsu Crush ban in this Versus Website as well?

[AppleLord]

It seems everywhere I go it's either banned or equalized.

I'll proposse an idea to equalize this "ability".

If a character does have soul resistance, then they technically cannot be affected by Reiatsu Crush. However, for the purposes of any VS. Match, we should equalize that Reiatsu Crush will work, as it does within its own universe limits & laws.

We should use the opponent's soul resistance feats to establish whether it takes affect. Saying that Reiatsu Crush from Bleach can't be use or equalize it, is like saying that a Naruto character can't use Genjutsu on any opponent from another universe; technically correct neither Genjutsu or Reiatsu Crush are energies, they are techniques. Genjutsu doesn't equal Ki, Chakra or Haki now does it? It's removing a major part of a character's moveset for reasons that, undermine the purpose of the battle.

Is it really so hard to use a character's soul resistance feats (if they have any) to see whether they can resist Reiatsu Crush, instead of just going "lol" nope and getting rid of some important part of the character's moveset and viseversa with screaming "reiatsu crush solos" I don't see the fairness on either topic.

I just checked and must of the Bleach characters have Soul Manipulation in their tags, however, somehow they cannot use this "manipulation" on combat.

Any opinion or thought would be hopeful.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

It should be banned for sure. It'll only invite room for wanking and NLF. And it hasn't even been shown to work on someone on the user's level or higher. Sounds identical to the Conqueror's Haki issue.

 

[AppleLord]

Point I already went through. It should be withing its universe laws and limitations. Soul Crush isn't AP so it doesn't matter is hax that affect the soul of a living or death being as it was shown to work on souls.

Genjutsu hasn't shown to work on people on the same level or higher either. Should it be ban as well? Reiatsu Crush works on people without Spiritual Energy and going by the rules, you must either have to show resistance to mind control or Genjutsu will affect you. Same goes with Reiatsu Crush. If you have no Soul resistance it can affect you.

I don't know anything about Haki sorry on that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm almost certain this has been discussed many, many times before.

 

[AppleLord]

I'm almost certain this has been discussed many, many times before.

Was it concluded to not work outside of its universe, did they considered equalizing it, what about resistance feats? Aren't they use in someway to balance things out, just how they found away to aloud Genjutsu in a fair way. Can't the same be done?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

No, that's wrong. Madara and Obito essentially used genjutsu on themselves by using Izanagi. Itachi used Kotoamatsukami on himself. He placed Orochimaru and Kabuto under genjutsu. The same Kabuto that he had to collaborate with Sasuke against. Kabuto was even actively avoiding eye contact with both of them despite being individually stronger. Tayuya's genjutsu worked on Shikamaru. Itachi used genjutsu on Deidara. Sasuke used genjutsu on Danzo. Fukasaku and Shima used genjutsu on Pain. There are definitely other examples of genjutsu working on a comparable or superior opponent.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Forgive me, but I don't know a lot about Bleach. However, from what I've heard, it seems like just an ability to get weak humans out of the way. Not to mention that you said it yourself. "Reiatsu Crush solos" will come. And then, people are gonna push "Nen Baptism" and "Invisible Stands"

I don't see why you are comparing it to Genjutsu. That is supposed to not work on people without Chakra. It wasn't a way to make it fair for everyone else. It was a way to make it fair to Genjutsu users.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Reiatsu Crush just essentially paralyses the opponent by paralysing them with their superior reiatsu. It hasn't worked on comparable opponents. It's room for NLF. Not to mention, it sounds exactly like when Orochimaru and Zabuza released some sort of energy on Sasuke making him unable to move. Orochimaru used it on Kakashi and Sakura too. There's no way it would work on Jiraiya or Nagato for example. It's just for opponents weaker than the user.

 

[AppleLord]

Madara and Obito using genjutsu on themselves by using Izanagi, isn't an example. People can use their own abilities on themselfs. Evidence when Urahara try to kill Aizen with his own Reiatsu by making him explode.

Itachi used Kotoamatsukami on himself. Same things goes to Itachi.

He placed Orochimaru and Kabuto under genjutsu.

Itachi was sick, you don't expect me to buy they are the same or equal in combat. Kabuto was struck by a special Genjutsu that require prep time.

Kabuto was even actively avoiding eye contact with both of them despite being individually stronger. Which proves that it doesn't work on "equal" or "stronger" opponents.

Tayuya's genjutsu worked on Shikamaru. That just prove she was stronger, he won because of his intelligence. I remmeber that pretty well in fact.

Itachi used genjutsu on Deidara. A weaker Itachi use it.

Sasuke used genjutsu on Danzo. Danzo was getting destroy by Sasuke, he only lived because he kept reviving himself with Genjutsu.

Fukasaku and Shima used genjutsu on Pain. That pain was not in combat.

There are definitely other examples of genjutsu working on a comparable or superior opponent. Why didn't they use it in the war againts Madara, Kaguya, Obito or Kakashi?

 

[AppleLord]

Forgive me, but I don't know a lot about Bleach. However, from what I've heard, it seems like just an ability to get weak humans out of the way. Not to mention that you said it yourself. "Reiatsu Crush solos" will come. And then, people are gonna push "Nen Baptism" and "Invisible Stands"

I don't see why you are comparing it to Genjutsu. That is supposed to not work on people without Chakra. It wasn't a way to make it fair for everyone else. It was a way to make it fair to Genjutsu users.

Because Genjutsu is an ability just like Reiatsu Crush. Each time a battle is made Reiatsu is always equalize to chakra or Ki. Would it be fair to Equalize Genjutsu to Ki, Haki or chakra? A better example, a sword to sun rays?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We do equalize Genjutsu to Ki, Haki, and Chakra. So it can work.

 

[Promestein]

Various characters that are not humans have been affected by Reiatsu crush, but it likely wouldn't affect anyone on the same level from what I remember it showing.

 

[AppleLord]

Let's avoid walls of text.

I'll put it simple: Am I to assume that a character with no soul resistence, be immune to Soul Manipulation?

Isn't that the same as a character with no Mind resistance, been immune to mind manipulation. (Genjutsu)

 

[Antvasima]

I also find it highly impractical to apply this to equally strong or stronger characters from other franchises.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Okay. Let's drop the Izanagi and Kotoamatsukami argument.

Um, it seems like you're agreeing with me here? A sick Itachi is not stronger than Orochimaru. Which just proves my statement that genjutsu works on comparable or stronger opponents

Unlike reiatsu crush.

Again, it seems like you're agreeing with me. Kabuto is stronger than Itachi and Sasuke. Yet, he was avoiding eye contact with them. What does that convey? That their genjutsu would have worked on someone stronger than them. Unlike reiatsu crush again.

Alright, let's forget the Tayuya argument. She was indeed stronger than Shikamaru and he needed Temari's help.

Yet again, it seems like you're agreeing with me that genjutsu works on stronger opponents than the user. A version of Itachi that was weaker than Deidara placed him under genjutsu and forced him to join Akatsuki.

What? So Pain wasn't in combat when he fought both Jiraiya and Naruto? When they used Frog Song in Naruto's fight with Pain, it caught multiple paths of Pain. I guess all of them weren't in combat. Including the same Deva Path that was just fighting with Naruto.

You expect them to use genjutsu in an arc that resulted in a massive power creep? And against people that have the Rinnegan or Sharingan that makes it very unlikely for genjutsu to work in the first place.

Now Kurenai used genjutsu on Kisame and Itachi. I believe I don't need to mention how much weaker she is compared to them. It worked before Itachi reflected it and he even commended her. Kakashi and Gai are equals. Yet Gai trained to fight by looking at the user's feet so he wouldn't be caught in it. Why would he do this if genjutsu couldn't work on comparable opponents? Obito's genjutsu worked on a perfect jinchüriki. Someone that has mastered the power of his bijuu completely and is surely stronger than 7-C Obito.

Kakashi used genjutsu on Zabuza to land the final blow in their first fight. The same Kakashi that he outmaneuvered earlier in their fight and placed him in Water Prison. Except you want to say somehow that Kakashi is massively stronger than Zabuza?

Madara trapped Kurama under genjutsu. The same Madara's that's Mountain level to Kurama's Large Mountain level.

Obito trapped Kurama under genjutsu. And that was Large Building level Kid Obito.

Reiatsu crush doesn't work the same way as genjutsu does. It works more like how Orochimaru and Zabuza released their energy and paralyzed Sasuke and Sakura. They could barely move and were shaking in fear. Even Kakashi that was revered throughout the shinobi world couldn't do anything even with his Raikiri in hand while Orochimaru casually walked out of the room. Are we going to give Naruto characters Mind Manipulation because of that? No. Because it hasn't been shown to be effective on comparable or stronger opponents. Do you think Orochimaru could leave Jiraiya paralysed and make him cower in fear? Aizen used reiatsu crush on Grimmjow, yet he has never used it on remotely comparable opponents. Nor has any other Bleach character. It's exactly like the Orochimaru and Zabuza situation. Releasing energy to paralyse or instill fear into inferior opponents. Now if you could bring proof of reiatsu crush working on comparable opponents, we can finally get somewhere.

 

[Antvasima]

If you are quoting people, you need to mark the text as such by using three ' marks on both sides of the segments.

 

[AppleLord]

I don't like walls of texts, so I concede to that. I'm also willing to concede on the topic if somebody can answered me this:

Can we assume that a character with no soul resistence, is immune to Soul Manipulation? (Reiatsu) from the start?

Isn't that the same as a character with no mind resistance been immune to mind manipulation. (Genjutsu)

Or a character with no Cellular level Regenerationn, been immune to Rasen Shuriken? (Naruto's attack)

I don't see the fairness on that. If it didn't affected equal or stronger opponent, it wouldn't matter since the target has no resistance feats to it. Why bother listing them as Soul Manipulation users if they aren't allow to use their powers?

 

[FateAlbane]

I'll have to disagree with this one as well.

To put it simply, Reiatsu crush is almost like a passive ability based on the power of a user's energy in comparison to another. You have Reiatsu, you can use that by virtue of being significantly stronger than your opponent. But nonetheless, it's Reiatsu based. You just need Reiatsu (which again, is the basic kind of energy, not a technique) of a similar or at least close enough level to be able to counter/resist it, so yes, Verse Equalization applies here.

The Genjutsu example is not accurate because not every combatant in Naruto has Genjutsu by default - while they all have Chakra, the most basic kind of energy. If one would put their opponent under the effects of Genjutsu simply by emanating Chakra or focusing it against them without the use of any additional technique or Jutsu, then this would apply, which is not the case.

For stuff such as Reiatsu, it IS the generally used energy in Bleach - the pressure that their Reiryoku may exert. Reiatsu in itself means "Spiritual Pressure".

The so called Reiatsu Crush is indeed much like the "Nen Touch", "Haki", and more. It's that old thing we see in a lot of media where if the opponent is just THAT much stronger, the mere pressure of his power is more than enough to cause side effects on the weaker one (even in Fairy Tail we also had Gildarts making Natsu fall to his knees paralyzed in fear just by emanating his Magic Power).

 

[AppleLord]

I'll have to disagree with this one as well.
To put it simply, Reiatsu crush is almost like a passive ability based on the power of a user's energy in comparison to another. You have Reiatsu, you can use that by virtue of being significantly stronger than your opponent. But nonetheless, it's Reiatsu based. You just need Reiatsu (which again, is the basic kind of energy,' not a technique) of a similar or at least close enough level to be able to counter/resist it, so yes, Verse Equalization applies here.

It needs to be activated. Not passive.

Are you saying the verse haves three types of energies? Reiryoku is Spiritual energy, Reiatsu is the physical force that Reiryoku releases when activated. The second energy is Reishi.

I still want a fair answered to my questions. So I may concede on the topic.

 

[FateAlbane]

You kinda sorta just proved my point. Reiatsu is simply what we get when a Bleach character releases their energy. It's not a different thing. They just emanate their power and that's it. It's like Dragon Ball emanating Aura. Nothing more than that, it's just that they have a fancy name for when they emanate their powers.

You just said it yourself that Reiatsu is what they call the effects of released Reiryoku, which again, is the basic kind of energy. Call it Reiatsu or Reiryoku, it's the same kind of basic energy by the end of the day.

And I'm telling it's passive because the user can activate that against a weaker opponent simply by emanating their energy/focusing it against them or nothing at all. It works as a side effect if the opponent is much weaker - e. g.: Ichigo vs Kenpachi first match, Humans collapsing simply by being nearby a powerful character and so on.

I didn't even mention Reishi because it has nothing to do with Reiatsu crush. Not entirely sure why you brought that up, but is a basic kind of energy as well. Also equalized.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also, again on your point:

>> Reiatsu is the effects of released Reiryoku.

>> A match with a Bleach character is made. Energy (in this case, let's say Reiryoku) gets equalized as a result.

>> Characters are comparable to each other so when they release their powers they both have more or less equal Reiatsu which is the only thing needed to counter Reiatsu crush and make it a moot point.

 

[AppleLord]

I'm sorry but you're incorrect. Ki cannot do all of this: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Reiatsu

Passive means all ways on, which is also incorrect.

Reishi also produce Reiatsu is what the Quincy use and Yhwach has shown to use Reiatsu, something you say to only be revelant to Reiryoku. Which is wrong, you don't need Reiryoku to use Reiatsu.

 

[FateAlbane]

Reiryoku or Reishi does not matter because it's still a fundamental kind of energy. You use Reiryoku or Reishi or anything: End result is the same, effects of Reiatsu because you simply emanated your power.

Anyone in Bleach can use Reiatsu as long as they can fight. And all of these so called effects are completely moot against a comparable opponent - unless you make a stomp match, none of them matter.

Or do you want, say, characters from HunterxHunter one-shotting everyone with a Touch or simply by using Nen pressure because the others don't have Nen as well?

 

[FateAlbane]

In short, the side-effects of Reiatsu are not something that anyone needs to learn. They are not a technique. It's something that everyone with this sort of energy has by default simply by being stronger than the opponent. No aditional technique is necessary: By having Reiatsu, you have that. Literally nothing aside from their Reiatsu being much stronger than that of their opponent.

 

[AppleLord]

It's not the same, otherwise one type of energy would be all that is needed.

I still want answers to my questions.

>>Can we assume that a character with no soul resistence, is immune to Soul Manipulation? (Reiatsu) from the start?

>>Isn't that the same as a character with no mind resistance been immune to mind manipulation. (Genjutsu)

>>Or a character with no Cellular level Regenerationn, been immune to Rasen Shuriken? (Naruto's attack)

I don't see the fairness on that. If it didn't affected equal or stronger opponent, it wouldn't matter since the target has no resistance feats to it. Why bother listing them as Soul Manipulation users if they aren't allow to use their powers?

 

[FateAlbane]

>>Can we assume that a character with no soul resistence, is immune to Soul Manipulation? (Reiatsu) from the start?

Answer: Of course not in the Soul Manipulation part, but read reply above. Reiatsu = Effects of released Reishi or Reiryoku, which are Bleach's fundamental energies. A character that fights against a Bleach character will have energy equalized and they both will use the same sort of energy - meaning if the character is comparable enough to make the match fair against the Bleach person, Reiatsu crush will be made moot because they have an equal ammount of energy and the spiritual pressure (Reiatsu) released will be the same, rendering all the side effects void as they do not work against comparable opponents at all.

As for the other two questions, it's no and no again, but I explained above why these are different cases already. Genjutsu works on comparable enemies and is a technique (Jutsu) in itself. It's not something that is rendered entirely innefective simply because the opponent has the same level of Chakra or higher.

Same goes for Rasenshuriken. It's not like the attack goes right through someone without doing anything if they have comparable Chakra to the user.

 

[AppleLord]

Then we assume they can also use Reiatsu?

Which leads to my next question, sometimes A character can be put to fight B character who is stronger than him because of his hax, allowing the match. Can Reiatsu Crush be apply if character A has no Soul resistance feats in this case?

 

[FateAlbane]

Yes. In the link you just gave above, it also says that Reiatsu is simply what Reiryoku creates when released. It goes without saying that anyone with Reishi or Reyrioku as their energy would generate Reiatsu by default simply by releasing it/fighting making the whole point of Reiatsu crush irrelevant for the match.

...As for the question.

You're asking if Reiatsu Crush would apply if a character of a lower tier than the Bleach character was put against them, in some sort of AP vs Hax match?

Am not sure on this one. It's best to wait for the staff to answer that.

 

[AppleLord]

Following that logic it will be correct. If A character has sufficient hax to match B character, but it doesn't have soul resistance feats then it would wok.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I understand Apples point here (I think?), in Bleach gaining reiryoku/reiatsu is the strengthening of the soul, and that using verse equalisation gives the opponent a resistance they would not usually have. Unfortunately this is just a sacrafice for a fair match between verses (See Fate examples) As in verse two opponents with the same level of strength cannot reiatsu crush the other.

This is how I use it:

So in standard matches if they are on the same level, reiatsu crush does nothing. Same if the opponent is stronger also.

If it's like what you described (A fight against a hax character with lower stats, or a character with lower stats,specifically dura), I'd say it can be a viable argument, aslong as it's used appropriately and not abused.

As using reiatsu crush as a argument is often looked down upon I personally only ever really use reiatsu crush as a argument for Aizen, as he is the only character in the series to weaponise reiatsu and actually disintergrate people with it

 

[AppleLord]

I'm grateful for the explanation. That was what I was looking for, it seems that my question has been answered. You can close the thread, if no one else has an opinion, on the topic.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that LordAizenSama makes sense.

Anyway, I will close the topic then.