Invincible Downgrade

[Danny1112]

Like with Namek and some other planet destruction incidents they destabilized the core and caused a chain reaction explosion.

That doesn't refute anything. You would have an argument if it was established in the verse that drilling a hole in the core of planets can cause the planets to loose their gravitational binding energy and become a match for fireworks but there was no info whatsoever presented before and after for that case. Thadeus statement is just a poorly fabricated plot point and shouldn't be taken literal and again since we didn't see what the beam actually did to the core. Hell, this whole thing is just our assumptions since all Thadeus said was that "They could die from the impart" which isn't saying much.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Thadeus statement is just a poorly fabricated plot point and shouldn't be taken literal

The issue is that Thaddeus is the one who planned it, had Space Racer fire it first, and was confident that them dying on impact was a distinct possibility.

Its also the only feat the series has on this level in the comic, so its not like we have a supporting feat that backs they did it solo rather than with help. Omnipotus is the only one with similar statements, but every statement was over time and not something anyone scales to.

the beam actually did to the core.

The beam destabilizing stuff and causes them to explode. Its first appearance was it causing a chain reaction and destroying an asteroid belt.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

We can do so now or we can wait to find a usable tier for earlier Invincible forms then update everyone.

Can't we back-scale? Mark got stronger over time but it wasn't a huge boost each time, I don't think.

If he's Multi-Continent level Post-Conquest, he should be at the very least Continent level beforehand, no? Do we have a calc for the Moon explosion when he first fought Allen? That's leaning somewhat close to that, I think

 

[Danny1112]

The issue is that Thaddeus is the one who planned it, had Space Racer fire it first, and was confident that them dying on impact was a distinct possibility

And this doesn't matter when the whole plot dosen't make sense.

so its not like we have a supporting feat that backs they did it solo rather than with help.

We literally saw the whole planet go boom after their impact. There's no need for other feats to prove that.

The beam destabilizing stuff and causes them to explode. Its first appearance was it causing a chain reaction and destroying an asteroid belt

There's no proof that the beam destabilizes stuffs and what type of instability it causes for that matter, the only statement it has is that it goes through anything in other words causes a hole to anything in its path. The chain reaction Allen was describing had no relation to the beam, he was referring to the asteroid breaking apart and colliding with the rest of the asteroid in the belt. The asteroid breaking apart can just be described as the sheer pressure of the beam being shot from its inside. For the beam to cause the core to be unstable, it would have to nullify the gravitational binding energy and if that was the case, then there would be no need for Thaddeus them to charge at the planet since the core would collapse and hence collapsing the planet since the GBE was nullified further proving the whole logic behind it to just be a poorly constructed plot point. You could argue that the beam helped nullified the GBE and Mark, Thadeus and Nolan sent the whole mass flying towards deep space but that is superior to overcoming the GBE of the planet.

 

[Danny1112]

And this doesn't matter when the whole plot dosen't make sense.

We literally saw the whole planet go boom after their impact. There's no need for other feats to prove that.

There's no proof that the beam destabilizes stuffs and what type of instability it causes for that matter, the only statement it has is that it goes through anything in other words causes a hole to anything in its path. The chain reaction Allen was describing had no relation to the beam, he was referring to the asteroid breaking apart and colliding with the rest of the asteroid in the belt. The asteroid breaking apart can just be described as the sheer pressure of the beam being shot from its inside. For the beam to cause the core to be unstable, it would have to nullify the gravitational binding energy and if that was the case, then there would be no need for Thaddeus them to charge at the planet since the core would collapse and hence collapsing the planet since the GBE was nullified further proving the whole logic behind it to just be a poorly constructed plot point. You could argue that the beam helped nullified the GBE and Mark, Thadeus and Nolan sent the whole mass flying towards deep space but that is superior to overcoming the GBE of the planet.

And mind you, Thadeus wasn't confident in his speech since he added "Could" meaning it was just a guess and aligns with fact it was a moment thinking, it wasn't their plan to destroy the planet. What they needed Space Ranger for, was to bring those monsters and his gun since they can harm Viltrumites.

 

[Antvasima]

The Multi-Continent level calc was approved, when do we start updating the Invincible pages? Additionally, and I know this isn't a CRT, we should probably start adding stuff for Lifting Strength since there are quite a few good feats for that.

It is fine with me if someobody starts to update the pages based on an accepted calculation, but weren't there at least two of them for this feat, with different results? Which one did our calc group prefer that we use?

Also, someone should do something about Pitt's page since it's scaling off some evil AU Invincible but no feats of his own. I mean Dave Keown created him, worked on much of the Peter David run for Hulk in the 90s and did the Pitt/Hulk crossover and honestly that has more validity than Pitt scaling off Invincible lol

Pitt has his own separate continuity from Invincible, and should not be scaled from crossovers, yes.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

It is fine with me if someobody starts to update the pages based on an accepted calculation, but weren't there at least two of them for this feat, with different results? Which one did our calc group prefer that we use?

This one was approved, I think people were discussing it being accurate or not, I'm not 100% sure

Pitt has his own separate continuity from Invincible, and should not be scaled from crossovers, yes.

Working on it, actually

I'll probably make a Pitt CRT at some point, the character hasn't even appeared in 100 comics so he probably has more feats worth checking

 

[Antvasima]

This one was approved, I think people were discussing it being accurate or not, I'm not 100% sure

Okay. That can probably be used then.

Working on it, actually

I'll probably make a Pitt CRT at some point, the character hasn't even appeared in 100 comics so he probably has more feats worth checking

Thank you. It is appreciated.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can't we back-scale?

Not really in my view. They get stronger when heavily damage and comes back, along with general training. BoS Mark isn't High 6-A and neither is Blue Suit Mark for the most post.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Oh I know, though if we took into account every time Mark got heavily damaged and got a boost (I didn't remember that being how it worked for Viltrumites but fair enough...), we'd have quite a few keys. Additionally you'd get huge jumps in power.

I guess someone could calc Mark tanking the bomb that completely wiped out Las Vegas (I think that was Blue Suit Mark).

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's why I suggested we just split them based on the costumes he wore throughout the series.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Hasn't he just worn two (sans his End of Series look)?

 

[Qawsedf234]

It was

• Original
• Blue Suit
• Original Again
• Emperor Regalia

We would only need three, maybe four keys

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Let's see...

Original is from issue 1 to issue 50

Blue suit is from 51 to 70

Original again from 71 to 79

79 onwards is original but visible fingers and kneepads (this is after the Viltrum war)

Bonus note: After a near death experience in #132 Eve heals him back to full health, even stronger than before

143 and 144 is his Emperor suit and older self (mostly)

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Apparently Omni Man flying through space is more like teleportation. We’ll probably have to separate his flight speed and combat speed :/

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Using the guidebook is a double edged sword, since it states that Omni-Man used space-warps to go FTL, meaning its questionable if this scales to their in-atmosphere or combat speed.

Aaaaaaaand it looks like I was ninja’d...

 

[Antvasima]

It was

• Original
• Blue Suit
• Original Again
• Emperor Regalia

We would only need three, maybe four keys

This seems fine to me, but we need more calculations from Robert Kirkman's various comic books series first. Invincible, Brit, Tech Jacket, Wolfman, Guardians of the Globe, etcetera.

 

[Antvasima]

Using the guidebook is a double edged sword, since it states that Omni-Man used space-warps to go FTL, meaning its questionable if this scales to their in-atmosphere or combat speed.

Apparently Omni Man flying through space is more like teleportation. We’ll probably have to separate his flight speed and combat speed :/

This is also a valid point. He seems to use something akin to hyperspace travel, rather than pure speed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I figured MFTL+ was odd considering basically anyone can keep up with Omni Man, even humans iirc.

 

[sanicspood]

so that space omni man feat is invalid?

 

[NotoriouSoda]

To be fair it only says that for Omni-Man

I’m pretty sure other characters who don’t have that ability still fly across space at MFTL speeds

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I figured MFTL+ was odd considering basically anyone can keep up with Omni Man, even humans iirc.

Having gone through the comics a few times it seemed odd to me as well, but I was used to some pages exaggerating things on the wiki

We might be able to find MFTL+ feats in the comics though, I don't doubt they exist but I know they're not that prominent

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Tbh, wouldn't the feat be still legit? Omni Man may sometimes warp, but in that particular feat is was made very clear he just flew till he found the planet.

 

[Antvasima]

To be fair it only says that for Omni-Man

I’m pretty sure other characters who don’t have that ability still fly across space at MFTL speeds

The Invincible verse has a concept called "smart atoms" that seems to work as the power source for virtually all types of characters in it, so a similar principle likely applies for all spaceflight, especially as other characters are also not portrayed as much swifter than the Viltrumites.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

The Invincible verse has a concept called "smart atoms" that seems to work as the power source for virtually all types of characters in it, so a similar principle likely applies for all spaceflight, especially as other characters are also not portrayed as much swifter than the Viltrumites.

Even space rider? If there a scan for it that’s fair but SR just rides a bike and is still able to pilot at MFTL speeds

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he likely uses hyperspace travel as well, if that is the principle of the verse. I don't think that he is supposed to be nearly physically comparable to a Viltrumite. His gun is just lethal to them.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Tbh, wouldn't the feat be still legit? Omni Man may sometimes warp, but in that particular feat is was made very clear he just flew till he found the planet.

I feel like that's not impossibly hard if you're just flying towards a star in the distance. Since there's bound to be orbiting celestial bodies around said star.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Even space rider? If there a scan for it that’s fair but SR just rides a bike and is still able to pilot at MFTL speeds

Its very possible. Considering even things like clothing can be enhanced with Smart Atoms

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

If it helps it’s stated that Allen’s reaction speed is proportional to his flight speed

 

[Qawsedf234]

Oh so the faster they go the faster they become.

Like the speedforce.

Don't really know how to explain their speed then. Maybe something like "Speed: Varies [BoS Mark Antarctica feat] to MFTL+ (The reaction speed of the user grows in proportion to how fast they are moving, meaning that they have no "base" speed and can freely increase or decrease how fast they are moving)"

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I thought in VSBW we didn't use guidebooks much?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Depends on the franchise. Bleach and Naruto heavily rely on databooks, Marvel and DC mostly don't. The Invincible handbook doesn't contradict anything in the comics and explains a bunch of stuff, so it should be secondary canon if nothing else.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Shouldn't that be how all handbooks are treated, as secondary canon?

 

[Hellbeast]

Imo yeah (at least in terms of P&A) but try arguing that

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I feel like that's not impossibly hard if you're just flying towards a star in the distance. Since there's bound to be orbiting celestial bodies around said star.

Again, in the text it was very clearly said that Nolan just flew until he found the planet

 

[Antvasima]

The Invincible handbooks have all been accepted by the original sole writer of the series, but also greatly underestimate the lifting strength levels of the characters, in the typical Marvel handbook manner, so I am not sure in either direction.

However, relativistic speed, with Massively FTL+ hyperspace travel, as the handbooks say, seems to make sense to me.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

The Invincible handbooks say something against lifting strength? I don't remember anything contradicting Mark holding 400 tons relatively early in the series

Also on a sidenote, at some point I'm planning on calculating the feat regarding the cruise ship Mark and Anissa move at one point, I'm not entirely sure it's simply Class M because the ship was massive, almost half the size of the island they placed it in. It definitely seemed bigger than the largest cruise ship on Earth. I know this thread is about a downgrade but that's a feat I'm surprised no one's checked yet (or added to Mark's page)

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't the handbooks severely downplay most lifting strength values for the characters?

 

[Antvasima]

Also on a sidenote, at some point I'm planning on calculating the feat regarding the cruise ship Mark and Anissa move at one point, I'm not entirely sure it's simply Class M because the ship was massive, almost half the size of the island they placed it in. It definitely seemed bigger than the largest cruise ship on Earth. I know this thread is about a downgrade but that's a feat I'm surprised no one's checked yet (or added to Mark's page)

Yes, a calculation would be appreciated.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Again, in the text it was very clearly said that Nolan just flew until he found the planet

I dropped my point after the Allen scan. Smart Atoms make them relatively fast depending on how fast they're moving. If Mark is flying at MFTL+ speed he'll have MFTL+ reaction times, but if Omni-Man is flying at 230,000 MPH he'll have reactions for that speed.