Invincible Downgrade

[Qawsedf234]

Also, why can't we use the other feat that you listed for Immortal to scale from instead

What feats? Like his current tier suggestion is scaling off of people with no lifting feats and sort of harming Omni-Man but not really. Neither would give him any degree of lifting strength.

Like if you know something by all means show it, but I honestly do not know of anything that he would scale to that's above Class 25.

I thought that you said that Immortal himself performed the feat

It was Mark and another young and upcoming hero, not Immortal. If he did the feat then we wouldn't have an issue.

We need to find something else to use.

There's nothing else to my knowledge. Everything better is from people Immortal doesn't physically scale to.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if there are no lifting strength feats for Invincible during his first 2.5-3 years of stories that we can scale Immortal to, I think that giving him Unknown statistics in this area is better than severely downplaying him by using meaningless Marvel-style handbook numbers.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think that giving him Unknown statistics in this area is better than severely downplaying him by using meaningless Marvel-style handbook numbers.

But its not downplaying him. He's going to be listed as "At least Class 25", Immortal lacks any additional scaling, and there's nothing that gets contradicted by it being that way.

 

[DaReaperMan]

By the way is there not a better picture for Immortal?

 

[Antvasima]

I have already explained that the Invincible handbooks deliberately directly copied the system of the Marvel handbooks of using a scale that is absolutely meaningless except for comparison purposes. The real power levels of the characters are always far above what has been listed in this manner. I would appreciate if we can avoid going in circles about this over and over please.

 

[Qawsedf234]

By the way is there not a better picture for Immortal?

Probably somewhere. If you can find a better one we can use it.

The real power levels of the characters are always far above what has been listed in this manner.

Yes, they almost always are. But having "At least Class 25" is better than just giving him "Unknown". But if we're going in circles we'll just let the thread decide what to do and roll with that.

 

[Antvasima]

Why are you so against using Unknown lifting strength or scale Immortal from early years Invincible in this regard? It is far preferable to using a random nonsense number that is no better than guesswork statistics.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Probably somewhere. If you can find a better one we can use it.

We should probably use the one from Superheroes Wiki if we can

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why are you so against using Unknown lifting strength

Because he has showings. In my personal view if a character has a showing for lifting strength we should list it. We already separate the stats from Attack Potency and Striking strength so its not like it leads to weird power contradictions.

scale Immortal from early years Invincible in this regard?

Because canonically Mark is just much stronger. We don't scale Wonder Woman to Superman's lifting strength for similar reasons, They're roughly as powerful but Superman is just physically stronger. In this case Immortal is weaker in both regards.

Though if there's a scene I'm missing of him properly grappling someone then giving him some for of scaling wouldn't be bad.

nonsense number that is no better than guesswork statistics.

But its not a guesswork statistic. Its a direct number that aligns with the bare minimum he's been shown to do.

We should probably use the one from Superheroes Wiki if we can

Well, we can't just take a render that they made. But if you can find a source we can just make a similar one.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well, we can't just take a render that they made. But if you can find a source we can just make a similar one.

I don't own comic books and the only thing that I can find of that particular image is from them...(and the alternatives aren't much better)

Though Immortal's page needs some heavy reworking, even I can see that

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't own comic books and the only thing that I can find of that particular image is from them...(and the alternatives aren't much better)

Though Immortal's page needs some heavy reworking, even I can see that

Google is always a thing

 

[DaReaperMan]

Google is always a thing

where did you think I looked?

 

[Antvasima]

The Invincible handbooks directly copied the "Up to class 100" system of the Marvel handbooks. Class 25 is definitely a random nonsense number that is only good for comparison purposes, and I am fiercely opposed to using guesswork statistics in general.

Look, I accepted virtually all of your other suggestions. I am starting to get exasperated that you will not budge on a single but crucial point.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

where did you think I looked?

I dunno

Anyway, this and this seem like good pictures

 

[Qawsedf234]

Look, I accepted virtually all of your other suggestions. I am starting to get exasperated that you will not budge on a single but crucial point.

As I said, if the thread want to keep him at unknown I'm fine with it. Otherwise I don't see why "At least Class 25" or "At least Class 25, likely higher" is such a controversial rating for a relatively minor stat.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I am concerned that if we start to use meaningless handbook lifting strength numbers for Invincible, others will be encouraged to do the same for Marvel characters. I have systematically removed such instances when I have noticed them previously.

 

[Antvasima]

As I said, if the thread want to keep him at unknown I'm fine with it. Otherwise I don't see why "At least Class 25" or "At least Class 25, likely higher" is such a controversial rating for a relatively minor stat.

Again, because it is a random and meaningless strength scale directly copied from Marvel that is only useful for comparisons regarding how powerful characters are in relation to each other, and nothing else.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I guess just write a rule about it? Plus, we could just explain the differences

 

[DaReaperMan]

By the way why is Brit's AP Unknown? Pretty sure he should at least scale to BoS Invincible

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we have a rule for this regarding the Marvel handbooks.

 

[Antvasima]

By the way why is Brit's AP Unknown? Pretty sure he should at least scale to BoS Invincible

Brit is much weaker than BoS Invincible as far as I am aware. He is far more invulnerable though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

By the way why is Brit's AP Unknown?

Because his striking strength sorta varies everywhere but is overall just not super impressive relative to his durability. Its why my current suggestion is to make him at least 8-C.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because his striking strength sorta varies everywhere. Its why my current suggestion is to make him at least 8-C.

Should be fine

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Should Oliver scale to BoS Mark? Also what would the average Viltrumite like Anissa scale to?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Should Oliver scale to BoS Mark?

By the time he's an adult he'd scale to BoS Mark

average Viltrumite like Anissa scale to?

Anissa isn't an average Viltrumite, she's an Elite like Nolan who scales above post Viltrum Mark and can harm Thragg.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here then? The suggestions earlier seem fine to apply, with the exception of class 25 strength for Immortal.

Also, we need to figure out what to do with Brit's durability.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Brit's durability should be Large Island level considering even an alternate Mark couldn't beat him. Other than that, we still need to figure out how to scale Angstrom Levy and Eve.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Robot's regular Viltrumite level armors were also incapable of harming Brit, if I remember correctly.

Anyway, Eve was capable of beating hordes of Viltrumites at the same time near the end of the series, after her power-up, so she was likely nearly comparable to Thragg in terms of raw power at this point.

Angstrom Levy is physically far weaker than Invincible, but I am not sure what we should scale him from.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I just checked, when Robot was attacking him, both times his armors were unable to harm him.

I was more referring to Eve during the beginning of the series. By the middle to end of the series she was pretty much at Viltrumite levels but during the beginning, from what I found, she doesn't have many good scaling feats. We could keep that as Unknown on her profile but I don't know if that's the best decision.

I do have a feat to scale Levy to. He survived it with some burns but was overall fine. I'm trying to figure out how to actually calc it since I'm kind of new to this and it's my first attempt at a calc but if anyone else more experienced wants to calc it, they could.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Anyway, Eve was capable of beating hordes of Viltrumites at the same time near the end of the series

By the middle to end of the series she was pretty much at Viltrumite levels but during the beginning, from what I found, she doesn't have many good scaling feats. We could keep that as Unknown on her profile but I don't know if that's the best decision.

I'm gonna hard disagree here. She got steam rolled by Thragg's adolescent twins and didn't even fight during his invasion. If you mean the fight in #136 then she didn't beat any of them, just formed shields that temporarily held them off and needed to be saved by Omni-Man. This is even more blatant in the next page where she conjures a sword and cuts one of them and only draws some blood. As a reminder they literally killed themselves when attacking Mark because they were that much weaker than he was. They're like Kid-Omni Man tier, if that.

She and Tech Jacket beat some Reanimen off screen but we don't know how much she did, if anything at all.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

My bad. Could she not be Large Island level with barriers considering she could still block their attacks or would that not count?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Scaling her barriers to Kid Omni-Man/Ursaal to fine. Her AP is weirder. We either go with unknown or do the MCU Iron Man route I guess.

But she isn't High 6-A. Every character that scales to that has more or less easily shattered her constructs.

 

[Antvasima]

But didn't she get as much of a power-up as Invincible after she recreated their bodies after they were almost beaten to death? That is what made her able to splatter dozens of Viltrumites at a time like bugs on a windshield during the final war with Thragg. Or do I misremember?

 

[Qawsedf234]

But didn't she get as much of a power-up as Invincible after she recreated their bodies after they were almost beaten to death?

She did, but that happened in issue #132 and the scans I posted came from issue #136.

That is what made her able to splatter dozens of Viltrumites at a time like bugs on a windshield during the final war with Thragg. Or do I misremember?

I don't have any memory of her doing that to Thragg's children.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

During the final battle, she really only came out to rescue Anissa and Nolan and brought them back to their ship. Other than that, she didn't participate in the battle.

 

[Antvasima]

Oh. I probably misremember then. I thought that she created large force fields that Thragg's children splattered against. I will recheck to make certain.

 

[Antvasima]

You are correct. I misremembered. Post-power-up Eve's greatest feat was that she restrained Allen.

Robot's strongest armor was able to withstand several blows from Thragg combined with solar heat before it was destroyed though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Okay final few I guess

Conquest

Attack Potency: At least Continent level (Stronger than Blue Suit Invincible)

Speed: Varies up to Massively FTL+ (Kept up with Invincible, Oliver Grayson and Omni-Man)

Lifting Strength: Class G (Physically stronger than Blue Suit Invincible; easily broke out of a 400 ton block of steel)

Striking Strength: At least Continent Class (Superior to Invincible, impaled Invincible and Atom Eve with just his arms)

Durability: At least Continent level (Fought in a brutal prolonged engagement with Invincible twice)

Anissa

Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (Slightly superior to Viltrumite War Invincible. Drew blood from Thragg with other Viltrumite elites)

Speed: Varies up to Massively FTL+ (Can easily keep up with Invincible)

Lifting Strength: Class G (Physically stronger than Invincible who is able to bench press more than 400 tons, helped the latter lift a cruise ship where he later admitted that she did most of the work)

Striking Strength: Multi-Continent Class (Superior to Invincible)

Durability: Multi-Continent level (Can withstand blows from Allen the Alien, Invincible, and Omni-Man)

Kid Omni-Man

Attack Potency: Likely Large Island level (Superior to Earthbound heroes such as Immortal and Bulletproof. Able to lightly harm Conquest. While weaker than a full blooded Viltrumite, by the end of the series he should be comparable to a very early Invincible)

Speed: Varies up to Massively FTL+ (While overall slower, he is in the same speed range as Invincible and Omni-Man. Due to the nature of smart atoms his speed should operate on a similar principal to Allen the Alien's)

Lifting Strength: Likely Class K (By the end of the series he should be comparable to an early Invincible)

Striking Strength: Likely Large Island Class

Durability: Likely Large Island level

Atom Eve

Attack Potency: Athlete level physically, At least Wall level with constructs (Comparable to Phase Two who can shatter walls. Drilled through three miles of Earth quickly) | Athlete level physically, At least Wall level with constructs | Athlete level physically, At least City level+, possibly Large Island level (Damaged Bulletproof with a punch)

Speed: Superhuman flight speed (she can fly herself and others by projecting solid light constructs beneath her and her passengers at speeds up to 130 mph) with Supersonic+ reactions (can catch several bullets from Killcannon in her solid energy constructs) | Varies up to Massively FTL+ (Became far stronger and caught Conquest off-guard. Noted as being one of few non-Viltrumites comparable to a Viltrumite) | Varies up to Massively FTL+

Lifting Strength: Athlete level physically, at least Class 5 with constructs (Moved a large amount of wreckage) | Athlete level physically, at least Class 5 with constructs | Athlete level physically, Likely Class K with constructs (Her barriers were able to hold back Thragg's army of Viltrumites)

Striking Strength: Athlete Class

Durability: Athlete level, At least Wall level with her shields | Athlete level, At least City level with her shields (Withstood hits from a beam that can destroy cities) | Athlete level, Likely Large Island level with her shields (Withstood an army of Viltrumite Hybrids attacking her shields. While weaker than a true Viltrumite they should be comparable to Kid Omni-Man or an Early Invincible)


Keys: Beginning Of Series | First Resurrection | Second Resurrection

Preemptive points

• Conquest: The gap between Conquest's rematch with Mark and them preforming the planet bust was multiple months in universe. The entire arc lasted for ten months. Considering Viltrumite Zenkai boosts and training its unknown if Conquest would scale to them despite his death appearance (issue #72) occurring so close to the High 6-A feat
• Kid Omni-Man: He limbs have shattered from hitting Thragg and Conquest shattered his arm with zero effort. He does not scale in any capacity to them besides the bare basics.
• Eve: I shouldn't have to say this, but pinning people who literally do not try to escape isn't a lifting strength feat. She also never harmed Allen or Mark and Conquest was not damaged in a way that backscales to AP

All that's left is the vote on Immortal's LS and Levy's page

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also semi-related here's an Issue 41-43 Invincible dissing on Immortal

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, with the exception that I am uncertain about MFTL+ (due to space warps) and that I think that EOS Eve should scale to regular Viltrumites, that is probably fine.