Improving contents of Powers & Abilities pages

[Antvasima]

I think just dividing it as its own power page may be best, a subcategory sounds good on paper, but while the powers have similar premises, the methods are so different they require different answers and semantics, as much Type 5 Acausality isn't a subpower per-say.

I'd suggest for the name of the new power to be "Non-Solid Physiology" or so, it'd quickly remove false positives like characters made of "elements" that are basically incorporeal anyways, but it'd still require to note that stuff like Incorporeality and Nonexistent Physiology have already their own pages and should be indesed as such if the case fits either of those better.

I personally wouldn't mind this.

 

[Bobsican]

On second though, just "Elemental Intangibility" may work better instead, as I can recall some characters not made from solids per-say that wouldn't really qualify out of physical disruptions that'd involve this kind of power being easily lethal to them.

Anyways, is anybody willing to start working on a page that'd illustrate the concept in a blog post or sandbox?

Also, for simplicity we may just make this power Regeneration on at least a Low-High level within a timeframe of seconds of less, but that may raise the question of why even have that power when it's just slightly more specific Regen.

Therefore, just specifying that cases of characters that are "elementally" intangible may qualify for Regeneration instead in the Intangibility page may not be a bad idea (even simplifying editing), but I'd like input from others.

 

[Jinx666]

Regeneration again though, isn't the only property of a power like this. Its a common power of such (Even though theres likely examples that have a limited amount of that substance to regen with). It can definitely be its own thing without focusing too much on Regeneration

 

[Bobsican]

Well, mind elaborating the criteria then? I just want to minimize false positives and redundancy

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I think “Materialization” would be a good page for the wiki to have. Acts as an umbrella for all powers of its kind and hardly ever works under the same guidelines that Matter Manipulation follows.
Characters like the Lanterns would benefit, for example. Materialization is more accurate to their lore than Weapon Creation.

 

[Shmooply]

I think “Materialization” would be a good page for the wiki to have. Acts as an umbrella for all powers of its kind and hardly ever works under the same guidelines that Matter Manipulation follows.
Characters like the Lanterns would benefit, for example. Materialization is more accurate to their lore than Weapon Creation.

I think Creation fits this bill already.
Also, this is the thread where we improve the pages for already existing abilities, we have an entirely separate thread for adding new abilities.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I think Creation fits this bill already.
Also, this is the thread where we improve the pages for already existing abilities, we have an entirely separate thread for adding new abilities.

The thing about Creation is that as a catch-all term, it is vague. Sometimes, excessively so and no different from Reality Warping for umbrella purposes. It works in a vacuum of alternatives, but it helps to have a smaller subset to be more specific. Think about how Black Hole Creation is here, because it's a common ability despite Creation covering for it with its wide, near endless range of possibilties.
Last but not least, odd. I asked a moderator in advance about where to post this and they guided me here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think “Materialization” would be a good page for the wiki to have. Acts as an umbrella for all powers of its kind and hardly ever works under the same guidelines that Matter Manipulation follows.
Characters like the Lanterns would benefit, for example. Materialization is more accurate to their lore than Weapon Creation.

I think that was proposed before, but not sure what the reasons turned out.

 

[Bobsican]

One thing is doing a subset, another is doing an overall redundant P&A.

Like, would Materialization just be Creation but without breaking the laws of conservation of matter (as far claimed justifications in-verse go anyways)? If so, that'd be way too specific, serve no real purpose as writers can't do math and will generally make matter / energy out of nowhere regardless of intent, and would quickly create a lot of pages to change accordingly out of now becoming outdated for no real gain.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

One thing is doing a subset, another is doing an overall redundant P&A.

Like, would Materialization just be Creation but without breaking the laws of conservation of matter (as far claimed justifications in-verse go anyways)? If so, that'd be way too specific, serve no real purpose as writers can't do math and will generally make matter / energy out of nowhere regardless of intent, and would quickly create a lot of pages to change accordingly out of now becoming outdated for no real gain.

Redundant? No, not quite. From what I observed so far, powers like Creation are more useful for indexing pages when the characters have a lot of different applications to it, if not all. Materialization is more limited in scope but also far more to the point as a subset. My reasons to suggest it don't have anything to do with physics in this case, in contrast to simple belief that it serves the pages (and later on, fast clarification in VS Threads) better. Creation on its own also requires extra explanations on indexing, and raises more misconceptions or doubts to people unfamiliar with characters that have it listed.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

In my humble opinion, an example of it distinct from Creation's usual and that would feel better to list as "Materialization" is when Characters can Materialize thoughts, memories or the fears of others, etc. Finally, an argument to calling nearly every power page redundant could be made, if we are to not make them based solely on a prior one being a widely expansive umbrella. E.g.: There would be reason to remove Fire, Water, Wind, Lightning manipulations and etc, since Elemental Manipulation + Explaining which in the page would cover for any of these powers on its own. Yet they are useful to have, because they make things more to the point, direct and clear to understand.

 

[Bobsican]

Redundant? No, not quite. From what I observed so far, powers like Creation are more useful for indexing pages when the characters have a lot of different applications to it, if not all. Materialization is more limited in scope but also far more to the point as a subset. My reasons to suggest it don't have anything to do with physics in this case, in contrast to simple belief that it serves the pages (and later on, fast clarification in VS Threads) better. Creation on its own also requires extra explanations on indexing, and raises more misconceptions or doubts to people unfamiliar with characters that have it listed.

I mean, ideally users would just specify the extent a given power has shown, even for cases intended to be "only" limited by the creativity of the user, there's also not much point on doing more power pages to ease newbies on the site, if anything it just turns matters worse as now they mare more to learn.

In my humble opinion, an example of it distinct from Creation's usual and that would feel better to list as "Materialization" is when Characters can Materialize thoughts, memories or the fears of others, etc. Finally, an argument to calling nearly every power page redundant could be made, if we are to not make them based solely on a prior one being a widely expansive umbrella. E.g.: There would be reason to remove Fire, Water, Wind, Lightning manipulations and etc, since Elemental Manipulation + Explaining which in the page would cover for any of these powers on its own. Yet they are useful to have, because they make things more to the point, direct and clear to understand.

We have Subjective Reality for that, and Elemental Manipulation was actually considered to be removed itself out of meaning nothing on its own and just enabling a fancy way of listing other powers when said other powers could just be listed directly, but it's so widespread now it'd require a site-wide proyect to handle, two wrongs don't make a right, after all.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I mean, ideally users would just specify the extent a given power has shown, even for cases intended to be "only" limited by the creativity of the user, there's also not much point on doing more power pages to ease newbies on the site, if anything it just turns matters worse as now they mare more to learn.



We have Subjective Reality for that, and Elemental Manipulation was actually considered to be removed itself out of meaning nothing on its own and just enabling a fancy way of listing other powers when said other powers could just be listed directly, but it's so widespread now it'd require a site-wide proyect to handle.

Don't think it's ideal to use Subjective Reality as a substitute, because the ability by definition implies that users have access to both sides of the boundary. And I wouldn't use the word newbie, just “not knowledgeable about a given verse”. No one ever will be about all of them, regardless of the amount of hours spent on debating!
Thanks for letting me know that about Elemental Manipulation's situation, though. All I wanted was to bring the suggestion up, so I'll leave it here and if it later catches the eye of staff as useful they can call me again. Or make it in a way that's good for the wiki. If not, that's fine too.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, a page describing a power poorly is an issue of the page itself, not of the given power, and not really, the site has a general policy of just assuming the negative by default, as much a burden of proof is required to claim anything beyond what's currently known to be confirmed.

 

[Jinx666]

Well, mind elaborating the criteria then? I just want to minimize false positives and redundancy

Essentially its just gaining the physiology of a particular tangible element, such as what Venom or Clayface have, but also counting the likes of Logia users in OP or someone like Juvia.

Theres Regen, possible duplication, shapeshifting, size shifting, 'elemental intangibility', Elasticity, Elemental properties etc-

I mean i just want a differentiation on the fact Elemental Intangibility would not count for NPI, and it possibly having its own page since it really is only a simulation of actual incorporeal intangibility, but if theres not already a page just for generally being made of a flexible elemental-type susbtance already then sure

 

[Bobsican]

I'm fine with it being its own page assaid before, I'm just concerned about the criteria.

Anyways, can you please draft the power page in a blog post or sandbox so staff members may evaluate/polish the idea?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

There should be a page for White Whole Creation since there is one for Black hole
I talk about that in my thread

 

[ShionAH]

There should be a page for White Whole Creation since there is one for Black hole
I talk about that in my thread

Whats a white whole

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Whats a white whole

The opposite to a black hole

 

[ShionAH]

The opposite to a black hole

ooh

 

[Bobsican]

Sounds rather redundant, and it doesn't help there's not that many characters with it, especially beyond being portrayed as a fancily colored black hole.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Sounds rather redundant, and it doesn't help there's not that many characters with it, especially beyond being portrayed as a fancily colored black hole.

How is that redundant? You can argue Black hole is much more redundant considering how black hole is basically gravity, while white hole is much more complex.
Maybe true or not, maybe there are a bunch but because there is no page no one ever cared to talk about it, In my thread i mention a thread from 2018 where white hole was being discussed and unfortunately never got a proper answer.

 

[Bobsican]

Namely out of most cases of white holes just falling as black holes for our purposes with how many creative liberties fiction tends to take, as much a black hole rarely actually sucks up planets and so on.

Usually you'd bring up characters that's qualify for white holes over black holes to begin with then, anyone in mind?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Namely out of most cases of white holes just falling as black holes for our purposes with how many creative liberties fiction tends to take, as much a black hole rarely actually sucks up planets and so on.

Usually you'd bring up characters that's qualify for white holes over black holes to begin with then, anyone in mind?

I can talk about 1 that i know now Carol Danvers i talk about that in my thread we all know she uses power from a white hole but she has a feat of creating one too.
White holes and Black holes are supposed to be opposites black hole is attraction and white hole maybe repel,

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah yeah, but fiction is dumb and we tend to portray by what stuff actually does over mere looks out of that.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Yeah yeah, but fiction is dumb and we tend to portray by what stuff actually does over mere looks out of that.

So why does reality manipulation exist? All of that feats could easily be explained with other powers such as memory manipulation, transmutation, time traveling and so on. This wiki has a page for Black hole and another for gravity because they take it as not the same thing.

 

[Bobsican]

For the same reason we have one for Fire Manip and another for Heat Manip, you can make fire with heat and all, but heat is more expansive to change temperature in general. Similarly, Gravity Manip includes reducing gravity or raising it to levels not quite to a Black Hole's.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

For the same reason we have one for Fire Manip and another for Heat Manip, you can make fire with heat and all, but heat is more expansive to change temperature in general. Similarly, Gravity Manip includes reducing gravity or raising it to levels not quite to a Black Hole's.

Exacly my point, if heat is not the same as fire then so white hole is different from a black hole and i would say that the difference is much bigger

 

[Bobsican]

At this point I'd rather wait for what the staff thinks as I still have the same thoughts as before.

 

[Antvasima]

There should be a page for White Whole Creation since there is one for Black hole
I talk about that in my thread

@Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @DontTalkDT @Ugarik @AlexSoloVaAlFuturo

What do you think?

 

[DontTalkDT]

@Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @DontTalkDT @Ugarik @AlexSoloVaAlFuturo

What do you think?

White holes are a theoretical (and IMO likely non-existent) physical object. Which wouldn't matter if lots of characters had this power as parts of their abilities, buuuut... they really don't.
No need to make a page for a handful of users.
(The fact that the white hole in the thread linked isn't even a proper one really doesn't help either)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That makes sense to me. Thank you for helping out.

It doesn't seem necessary to add then.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Warped Psyche.

A characteristic of a character's personality which puts them beyond average sane human. This can be either due to supernatural means, from traumatic experiences which has warped ones personality or psyche, or from inherent trait of psychopathy.

These characters are generally hard to reasoned with making Social influencing less likely to work and to some degree allow them to be less affected by Madness manipulation Type 3 for already being insane or maddened.

Note : This ability should only be given to characters which portrays significant insanity or warped personality to the point of sociopathy or psychopathy that has massive impact to their characterization and actions. And depending on how deranged one should not assume that they are of equal nature and should be analyzed on case to case basis. This should not be mistaken to characters who possessed Rage Power as those with Rage power often display some sort of control and awareness such as Berserk Skill, Hulk's Anger, etc.

Animalistic - Characters who have shown to have lost their sense of humanity that they only function on either pure instinct. These characters are almost impossible to reasoned with as they no longer have a mind to think reasonably.

Sociopathy - Character showing Sociopathic trait. These character aren't simply characters who acts or thinks with sociopathic tendency but rather their entire thinking structure has become fully Sociopathic making them have great distrust thus making it hard to convince them to think reasonably

Psychopathy - Characters showing Psychopathic trait. These characters, unlike Sociopathic ones, is already with this nature with or without any traumatic or environment that drives them to gain a warped psyche or personality. These characters can be often oblivious to morality and has a loose moral compass making them act only to satisfy oneself and becoming indifferent to anybody else including even people they trust. These characters hardly does anything that wouldn't benefit themselves or bring them enjoyment. Although they can be convinced or reasoned with. They can easily disregard such things when it no longer benefits them in anyway that convincing them may work but it doesn't guarantee that it will last.

Insane/Manic - Character who has shown insanity that they can no longer be reasoned with. Similar to Animalistic with the key difference they it may be possible to calm them down but due to their inherent insanity they can go insane once again and will not guarantee a person will remain sane for long period of time.

---

Notable users i can think of for this is obviously Joker from DC
Wanda from MoM could fit in Sociopathy.
Doctor octopus from Spiderman while under the influence of his tentacles can fit for insane characters but it should be noted that without the tentacles doing so he would be sane otherwise. (This is base on Spiderman no way home)
People with dissociative identity disorder could also fit depending on the degree.
Multiple personality as well.

This is a rough draft i thought of and it could be improved.

And i believe its not something that can be easily put on intelligence section because an insane character can be ridiculously smart or a psychopathic person can both be cunning or just a endless murderer.
The only thing that can be easily listed under intelligence is animalistic as it is heavily tied to just being run on instinct rather than thought but the rest varies a lot

Lastly it should be noted whether it is from supernatural means (which can or is possible to nullify), psychological means, or both

 

[Lou_change]

Do you think real world humans have souls? The argument really doesn't matter, as we are talking about fiction.

Pressure points are supposed points on the human body meaning they can be scientifically disproven we can't prove or disprove souls because they are immaterial and we can't actually find anything that isn't matter/energy (in physics) meaning souls are a philosophical problem at the moment. Also we have Chi Manipulation which covers the historically basis that being a number of points in the meridian system, which are pathways of chi flowing thru the body. Verses that don't have confirmed chi can be explained as targeting vulnerable parts of the body such as nerve clusters, joints, and blood vessels. Which is probably a skill worthy of mentioning under martial arts or weapon mastery but shouldn't be a power more than any other instance of hitting a weak point.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I feel this part is repetitive in mind manipulation page

Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

When judging the potency of Mind Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Mind Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc. For more information visit the Hax page.

My suggestion: (a more concise version)

Mind Manipulation's potency is assessed based on its capabilities and the number of individuals it can influence simultaneously. Several factors play a role in this evaluation, including the mechanism of manipulation, the scale of influence, demonstrated resistance-breaking abilities, and the overall effects. For more details, refer to the Hax page.

 

[Bobsican]

Your version weirdly splits between redundantly listing potential aspects to consider, only to then mention more without just mentioning them consecutively list-like (aka, "thing A and thing B. Including thing C and thing D", instead of "thing A, thing B, thing C and thing D"), so it appears to turn such issues even worse.

TBH it'd be easier to just remove the former segment, namely:

Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

it's redundant, outdated and misleading to current standards, while the second part is more in line with our current standards.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Actually, this part already exists in hax page:

Note 2: When judging the potency of hax-based abilities such as Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation, and the resistance against them, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the power can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.

So I think the latter is simply redundant as you stated. But also I would add "For more information visit the Hax page." at the end.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, that's there as a sort of compromise from the thread I linked, Ant wanted there to be some extra explanation on both sides.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am against removal of the first line. Till then, conclude that thread. And I think my suggestion is simply more concise.

 

[Bobsican]

What thread? It's already concluded if you mean the one I linked.
Let's just wait for mods.