Important Naruto Speed Revision & Lightning Release Revision

[OrangeberrySama]

My point about Kirin is basically this:

1) If we presume that Black Zetsu is referring to lightning in general (which he definitely seems to be going by his wording) then we can take the average height of clouds and divide it by the timeframe given to us (0.001 s) which gives us an average speed of lightning from the perspective of Black Zetsu / Kishimoto.

2) We have our own standard on the average speed of lightning.

3) Trying to use two different standards for the same thing is inherently wrong.

Saying that the Black Zetsu statement applies exclusively to Kirin is wrong because Black Zetsu's statement is very clearly referring to the speed of natural lightning in general.

And if we're presuming that Lightning Release jutsu is always as fast as natural lightning in general, then trying to use our own standard is contradicting what Black Zetsu has told us.

And if you assert that all Raiton is as fast as natural lightning, you would be saying they're all as fast as Kirin, (using the same lightning speed standard), which is contradictory to how Kirin is portrayed as much faster than regular Raiton.

It's not that hard to understand and I'm inclined to agree with Damage in regards to this specific point.

 

[Rocker1189]

You clearly did not read my last post. I explained that it is not Kirin specifically that has a timeframe.

All lightning was given the time frame and Kirin has its own height.

 

[Rocker1189]

Also I like the way we are forgetting that waay before Kirin Kakashi had been known to cut a 100 percent natural lightning bolt with his raikiri.

 

[OrangeberrySama]

Also I like the way we are forgetting that waay before Kirin Kakashi had been known to cut a 100 percent natural lightning bolt with his raikiri.

Irrelevant. That doesn't say much of anything about his speed, there's nothing to calculate.

 

[Rocker1189]

Irrelevant. That doesn't say much of anything about his speed, there's nothing to calculate.

Sorry but it does you have to be fast to cut a lightning bolt due to their speed. There is nothing to calculate but it tells you his speed range.

 

[OrangeberrySama]

@Rocker1189 Not even, we have no idea how much he would have moved in relation to the lightning bolt and that could literally be any amount.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker1189 Not even, we have no idea how much he would have moved in relation to the lightning bolt and that could literally be any amount.

He would still have to have the reactions to track a lightning bolts movement from the clouds regardless of how far he moves in relation to it.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; that feat can be calced by itself. It doesn't really tell us anything at the moment without it being calced.

> All lightning was given the time frame and Kirin has its own height.

You do realize how contradictory this sounds? That a lightning bolt from 200 meters height and a lightning bolt from 4000 meters height both take exactly the same amount of time to cross the distance?

Using that kind of logic you could use the timeframe for every single Lightning Release jutsu to find their speed.

 

[Rocker1189]

I am just going to say this. Mitsuki's lightning regardless of other raiton and regardless of Kirin has shown enough criteria to be regarded as real lightning and thus it's speed should be the average used on their site for other lgithkignt hat show criteria.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

My point about Kirin is basically this:
1) If we presume that Black Zetsu is referring to lightning in general (which he definitely seems to be going by his wording) then we can take the average height of clouds and divide it by the timeframe given to us (0.001 s) which gives us an average speed of lightning from the perspective of Black Zetsu / Kishimoto.

2) We have our own standard on the average speed of lightning.

3) Trying to use two different standards for the same thing is inherently wrong.

Saying that the Black Zetsu statement applies exclusively to Kirin is wrong because Black Zetsu's statement is very clearly referring to the speed of natural lightning in general.

And if we're presuming that Lightning Release jutsu is always as fast as natural lightning in general, then trying to use our own standard is contradicting what Black Zetsu has told us.

These echo my exact thoughts.


Kirin is described as being special for using lightning speed, he says Kirin surpasses Raiton in general and that Kirin has the speed of lightning making it undodgable.


Yet for some reason our standards are to have all Raiton be lightning speed?


No, that's straight up going against what we're told in the series.

 

[Animeking500]

Is it just me or does it feel like we not getting anywhere with this thread

 

[TataHakai]

Is it just me or does it feel like we not getting anywhere with this thread

Welcome to all Naruto threads on VSB 2018-2019

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Welcome to all Naruto threads on VSB 2018-2019

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Damage3245]

> No, that's straight up going against what we're told in the series.

Pretty much boils down to what IMade has said. In order to ignore this inconsistency people have tried to play it off as "Sasuke's just wrong / arrogant" while ignoring the context of why it is being said, or pretending that Kirin is especially super-fast compared to normal lightning which is never stated in the manga.

If we use Black Zetsu's statement then what we get is:

Average Natural Lightning Speed = Kirin >>> Raiton Jutsu.

What is currently being used however is:

Average Natural Lightning Speed (Based on calcs from Black Zetsu's statement) = Kirin

Average Natural Lightning Speed (Based on our standard) = Raiton Jutsu

I can fully understand why lots of people in this thread disagree; but as far as I see it that's the current state of things.

 

[OrangeberrySama]

He would still have to have the reactions to track a lightning bolts movement from the clouds regardless of how far he moves in relation to it.

That's all mere conjecture.

 

[Rocker1189]

No what is being used is:

Kirin calc = for Kirin. Average lightning speed = for jutsu that display lightning criteria.

 

[Elizhaa]

No what is being used is:
Kirin calc = for Kirin. Average lightning speed = for jutsu that display lightning criteria.

This point seems like a fair option.

Besides, Kirin is faster than average lightning speed.

 

[Damage3245]

@Elizhaa; the problem is that the timeframe being used to support that idea isn't given to Kirin specifically. It is give to lightning in general.

This is what the 3rd Databook says on Kirin.

> The technique Sasuke thought out, said to be the culmination of the Lightning nature. First one uses a technique from the Fire Release line, like the Great Dragon Fire,** to radically heat up the atmosphere, creating a violent updraught. The updraught creates cumulonimbus clouds*** and from the cumulonimbus clouds breaks forth lightning...!! One changes the shape of this lightning, guides it to the target, and uses it to destroy the enemy in a roar that makes even the Heavens tremble. Because this ninjutsu makes good use of a natural phenomeno, one can invoke it using only a small quantity of chakra. Sasuke, aspiring to become the pinnacle of shinobi, finally tamed even "lightning" itself~~.

> The enemy is destroyed by the sound of thunder!

> The lightning is formed into the shape of the legendary divine beast "Kirin" and used to attack the target! This lightspeed attack is impossible to evade. The enemy will be obliterated before they can even blink!!

Now, I'm not sure if the 'lightspeed' bit is hyperbole or mistranslation but leaving that aside, the text is very clear that Kirin is special because it takes advantage of natural lightning.

If every lightning jutsu travelled as fast as natural lightning, there would be nothing significant about Sasuke taming lightning and using it to create a high-speed attack.

 

[TataHakai]

> The lightning is formed into the shape of the legendary divine beast "Kirin" and used to attack the target! This lightspeed attack is impossible to evade. The enemy will be obliterated before they can even blink!!

Now, I'm not sure if the 'lightspeed' bit is hyperbole or mistranslation but leaving that aside, the text is very clear that Kirin is special because it takes advantage of natural lightning.

It is hyperbole don't worry, i have the official viz translated english databook that contains Kirin, nowhere does it say it's lightspeed

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHakai; Alright, thanks. I'd try to find it online myself but I don't think the official versions are uploaded anywhere.

 

[Rocker1189]

Regardless the scaling still works with the speed s calced and the average speed.

 

[Mindovin]

 

[Jvando]

Problem with that reasoning Damage is that everything about these kinds of situations are assumptions we use based on our real life standards.

If a character destroys a planet that has 10x more gravity than "earth" (Let's say planet Vegeta), do we assume that it's much larger than Earth?

No, we apply our RL standards because we don't know if it's bigger or not since this is a fictional world.

The entire basis of cloud to ground lighting replies on assumptions too. We assume 2000 meters based on our real life standards. Why should we? The clouds might be double that or even half that since this is a fictional world with 10x gravity. (I don't know how gravity affects cloud height nor do I care, the point is the same)

We assume 2k meters for Kirin. Who knows, it might only be 500 meters.

Why then, should we not use our same RL standards to judge lighting techniques as lighting speed when we do so for various other modes of fiction? Raiton shows all the necessary properties (4 in fact) and is the same for every individual

And once and for all, I want to stop this idea that "Raiton properties can be different from user to user to user despite me not having any proof of this and despite there being much evidence to the contrary"


Are we all just going to conveniently forget that you need to oscillate your chakra at high frequencies in order to generate Raiton? Why then would the Raiton show different properties when the process of forming them in the first place is the exact same for every user?

When you rub your hands together rapidly, do you expect to generate ice?

No. You expect to generate heat.

What do you think plants are producing when they undergo Photosynthesis? Fire?

No. Every single plant that undergoes photosynthesis, produces glucose and oxygen. You learn this in fifth grade (in America at least which is as far back as I care to remember)

Why would Raiton have different properties when the process of forming it is the same across every single user?

Hint: it's not.

Therefore, the Raiton properties that a user shows in a particular situation applies to every Raiton user. It literally depends on the situation is they decide to utilize a specific aspect of their Raiton or not.
Additionally, the scaling of speed for the characters still fits in when we use our real life standards for average lighting speed. In fact, there's isn't any number or variable as to how much superior natural lighting is to Raiton in the first place. It's been measured to be over 4 times faster than our RL standards based on other assumptions using, again, our real life standards. Hence, the assumption using our RL standards.

Why assume a magical bolt of lighting you summon by saying "Abra Cadabra" travels at our real life standards of cloud-to-ground lighting speed? It shows all the properties and so we go with that assumption.

That's it.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Kirin meets all criteria if I'm not mistaken. And Kirin is a special case since Kishi gave us a timeframe. It's really simple. Why the need to drag this?

 

[Damage3245]

Kirin meets all criteria if I'm not mistaken. And Kirin is a special case since Kishi gave us a timeframe. It's really simple. Why the need to drag this?

Kishi didn't give us a timeframe for Kirin specifically. Reread Black Zetsu's words in chapter 391.

 

[TataHakai]

It wasn't specfically for kirin

It was for lightning in naruto

but since kirin is natural lightning, it applies to kirin anyways

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHakai; precisely.

If lightning in Naruto is at a particular speed due to Black Zetsu's statement, then it should hold up for all things in the verse that are supposed to equal lightning in speed.

Then comparisons of speed between Lightning Release jutsu and lightning don't hold up until you take into context what lightning in Naruto already has a particular speed.

 

[Jvando]

We. Use. Real life Assumptions. For. Every. Fictional. Verse.

Problem with that reasoning Damage is that everything about these kinds of situations are assumptions we use based on our real life standards.

If a character destroys a planet that has 10x more gravity than "earth" (Let's say planet Vegeta), do we assume that it's much larger than Earth?

No, we apply our RL standards because we don't know if it's bigger or not since this is a fictional world.

The entire basis of cloud to ground lighting replies on assumptions too. We assume 2000 meters based on our real life standards. Why should we? The clouds might be double that or even half that since this is a fictional world with 10x gravity. (I don't know how gravity affects cloud height nor do I care, the point is the same)

We assume 2k meters for Kirin. Who knows, it might only be 500 meters.

Why then, should we not use our same RL standards to judge lighting techniques as lighting speed when we do so for various other modes of fiction? Raiton shows all the necessary properties (4 in fact) and is the same for every individual

And once and for all, I want to stop this idea that "Raiton properties can be different from user to user to user despite me not having any proof of this and despite there being much evidence to the contrary" Are we all just going to conveniently forget that you need to oscillate your chakra at high frequencies in order to generate Raiton? Why then would the Raiton show different properties when the process of forming them in the first place is the exact same for every user? When you rub your hands together rapidly, do you expect to generate ice? No. You expect to generate heat. What do you think plants are producing when they undergo Photosynthesis? Fire? No. Every single plant that undergoes photosynthesis, produces glucose and oxygen. You learn this in fifth grade (in America at least which is as far back as I care to remember) Why would Raiton have different properties when the process of forming it is the same across every single user? Hint: it's not. Therefore, the Raiton properties that a user shows in a particular situation applies to every Raiton user. It literally depends on the situation is they decide to utilize a specific aspect of their Raiton or not. Additionally, the scaling of speed for the characters still fits in when we use our real life standards for average lighting speed. In fact, there's isn't any number or variable as to how much superior natural lighting is to Raiton in the first place. It's been measured to be over 4 times faster than our RL standards based on other assumptions using, again, our real life standards. Hence, the assumption using our RL standards. Why assume a magical bolt of lighting you summon by saying "Abra Cadabra" travels at our real life standards of cloud-to-ground lighting speed? It shows all the properties and so we go with that assumption. That's it. |}

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; making assumptions where necessary isn't a problem that I am objecting to.

The problem is that two different standards are being used at once. And contextual evidence suggests that Raiton (even if they do display some properties of real-life lightning) does not necessarily move / travel / attack at the speed of lightning.

 

[Jvando]

But then you do realize that lower tier characters have speeds that surpass the average value we use for Raiton in the first place? (Most notable in Boruto, but even in Naruto, individuals have been calced with such reaction speeds). Even the assumption that Raiton moves at RL standards of cloud to ground lighting speed at a minimum is a highly conservative estimate. Factor in its properties, I still don't see why it's an issue to use our RL applications.

Kirin is calced to be at Mach 5.6k in Naruto, the average speed for lighting in that series, sure.

But no one knows how much more superior it is than Raiton. It could be 1000% superior or maybe only 100%. Us using our RL standards to evaluate Raiton (which can also be used to manipulate the Natural lighting [Kirin] in Naruto by the way) is in no way faulty.

 

[TataHakai]

I think Jvando's argument is that

Using mach 1k for Raiton as it's the standard in this wikia for lightning

And using mach 5.6k for Kirin as it's the speed of NATURAL lightning in Naruto

doesn't contradict the statement of Kirin being superior to Raiton

 

[Elizhaa]

I think Jvando's argument is that
Using mach 1k for Raiton as it's the standard in this wikia for lightning

And using mach 5.6k for Kirin as it's the speed of NATURAL lightning in Naruto

doesn't contradict the statement of Kirin being superior to Raiton

I think this interpretation is fine.

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHakai; okay, I think I'm beginning to see.

But isn't our standard on this wiki is for Natural Lightning?

 

[Jvando]

Nah, it's for lighting techniques in general that show properties of natural lighting AND for natural lighting.

Most electricity in fiction is not real lightning. Often it is supernatural in nature, and is possibly not even electricity. Therefore lightning is only accepted as such under certain circumstances.

• Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

• Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis.

As per my magic example earlier:

If a magician casts a lighting spell with magic that is shown to conduct through metals, Make muscles contract, cause electrolysis, And has a power of (around) 5 billion joules can be considered as "real" in the sense of our Real life values. It's clearly not real as it's formed from magic, but we apply our average standards to it regardless. It also helps if it fits within the context of the story for the characters to move that fast.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; so as far as I understand it, when lightning is shown to have some properties of real lightning is can also be assumed to travel at the average speed of natural lightning.

But then we have this: "mach 5.6k for Kirin as it's the speed of NATURAL lightning in Naruto"

So we have an average speed of natural lightning from the story (derived from a calc), and a average speed of natural lightning from our wiki standards.

This is what I was getting at earlier with there being two standards.

We use former for natural lightning, and we use the latter for jutsu that resemble natural lightning.

But logically speaking if both of them have identical properties, then only one standard should exist between them.

If there is a flaw of my understanding of this, I apologize and ask for clarification on the specific point it breaks down.

 

[Xulrev]

I'm genuinely curious as to why there's even a 'standard for lightning release' being argued for.

It seems as if everyone simply...conveniently proceeded to ignore the fact that just because one object exhibits a property, does not mean everything related to the object gains that property.

The beginning and end of the similarities all Raiton have ends at 'the user creates electricity with Chakra'.

The burden of proof falls upon those claiming all Raiton are lightning-speed to demonstrate each individual Raiton has the necessary elements the wiki necessitates for being called lightning.

Trying to bypass this argument or circumvent it is negated by the fact that individual Raiton explicitly can and are demonstrably beneath the speed of lightning, so you cannot just handwave the argument.

Also.....two standards of lightning for a single verse? What? This is absurd bias

 

[Jvando]

Nah, Raiton is formed by vibrating your chakra at high frequencies. Since the process for forming it is the same for every single user of Raiton, it's properties must be the same.

A plan undergoing photosynthesis isn't going to produce fire.

Rubbing your palms together will never produce water, it will produce heat.

Vibrating your chakra at high frequencies is only ever going to create Raiton. They can't have different properties because they are formed from the exact same process for every user.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; the properties for the 'electrical chakra' may be the same across all users, but the speed at which the jutsu travels being always the same no matter what jutsu, or who is using the jutsu is not necessarily the same.

It's like saying the speed of a fireball jutsu has to be the same across all users. The basic properties of fire may be the same across all users (it burns stuff, it's hot, etc) but the speed of the fireball isn't necessarily a defined property.

If a ball made of fire can travel at varying speeds, why can't a needle made of lightning travel at varying speeds (including speeds lower than lightning itself)?

 

[Xulrev]

Since the process for forming it is the same for every single user of Raiton, it's properties must be the same.

The process of creating a bullet is the same for every single round created in the US military; would you state all properties of all bullets must be the same? Same speed, weight, etc?

And if you wish to point out differences in casing size, grains per casing, etc, well that would be the same as the variance between the end result of the Raiton forged by each individual user.

So why should we not accept a 'standard bullet speed' on the wiki based on this argument, regardless of gun make or model?

 

[AstralKing7]

The same argument can literally be said for real life lightning. The fact that we have an average speed for real life lightning means it ever single light strike doesn't move at the same speed as the other. That's the reason why we take an average.


This is literally the same case with Raiton. We know Raiton for each Shinobi must mechanically originate from the same place because that's how it was explained. Saying that the properties of lightning style can change from one Shinobi to the next is very much head canon and was never stated ever in the series ever.


For example, assuming that this light strike from a cloud hits a rod a in the ground and causes it to trace underground but another light bolt from a different country descends to the ground and hits a tree. Do we assume that jsut because one showed conductivity that the other can non jsut because it's from a different cloud around the world?

No we do not. A Shinobi's Raiton originates from the same place, shares the same properties of causing chakra paper to wrinkle, causes paralysis in any ninja that's not a Raiton user and causes vibrations in metals in the series. Saying that they don't share the same properties when they are literally shown to is literally head canon

Each and every Raiton is literally the same except for shape depending on the specialty of the Shinobi

If majority of real life lightning that originates from the same place shows conductivity then every light bolt should

If majority of ever Raiton based jutsu that originates from the same place and shares the same properties is meeting all of the standards of real life lightning than each Raiton based jutsu should because their is literally no difference in verse ever stated between any Raiton jutsu