Important Naruto Speed Revision & Lightning Release Revision

[M3X_2.0]

If we just need a statement, why Kakashi's lightning wolf wasn't aceppted as real lightning?

 

[Damage3245]

If we just need a statement, why Kakashi's lightning wolf wasn't aceppted as real lightning?

The statement for that is in the hype text at the side and not in the actual description. In another important thread it was said that we don't look at the hype text in the databooks.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I disagree with you but I don't care so much to explain and make a argument against. And I am hungry.

 

[Jvando]

Furthermore, there are calcs for lower tier characters (Mirai) putting them at Mach 2k which don't rely on scaling from lighting dodging. I'm sure then that when characters of similar or higher tier use a lighting style on her, she'll be able to avoid it easily since there's no way Raiton can move at Cloud to ground lighting speeds (which again, Ming you, have a large range).

If the only contradiction is that the technique's speed can be "adjusted" (which we see from Kakashi) and we have much weaker characters displaying such high speeds (Mirai, not even scaling from assuming Raiton are Mach 1.2k at minimum), then there is no "contradiction". I'm sure Kakashi's lighting could tag her just fine, but I suppose since it moves at slower than lighting speeds, it would be impossible for him.

 

[Damage3245]

> Furthermore, there are calcs for lower tier characters (Mirai) putting them at Mach 2k which don't rely on scaling from lighting dodging.

Just want to mention that that calc isn't accepted yet.

But if characters are at a certain speed based on other calcs, that's fine. It's not really what the main topic of the thread is to discuss.

 

[Omimi]

The vast majority of lightning speed feats comes from natural sources or from one character who's power is based around the element. But if those franchises are wrong, then they're wrong. They should be downgraded. As Ant has said multiple times before, one profile or set of profiles being incorrect does not justify another set of profiles being incorrect.

Chakra itself is part of nature energy

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Tbh, Lightning Style has the same properties across the board. The only real difference is "Change in Shape".

Let's be honest also, this is only gonna be settled via a staff only thread regarding Lightning Release in Naruto. Regular threads are gonna continue to be divided because both sides won't budge and it's always only the same people debating it.

 

[Jvando]

One of the arguments, however, was that there is a contradiction in the speed of Raiton.

There isn't.

Not when a lower tier character has such high reaction speed.

Unless you want to say that Pain arc Kakashi's lighting wolf couldn't possible come close to tagging Mirai because it doesn't move at cloud to ground lighting speeds (which has a range).

That's false.

 

[Damage3245]

Chakra itself is part of nature energy

I think you're confusing the terms slightly.

Natural energy can be gathered by the user from the environment and combined with their spiritual and physical energy in order to use Senjutsu.

 

[Omimi]

If we just need a statement, why Kakashi's lightning wolf wasn't aceppted as real lightning?

no one knows

when we use statement = nope its hype

when we says it has multiplee lightning criteria = nope its slow

 

[TheFinalOrder]

If a Staff thread is made, nobody but staff should be allowed comment, no exceptions.

 

[Omimi]

The statement for that is in the hype text at the side and not in the actual description. In another important thread it was said that we don't look at the hype text in the databooks.

head-canon

how is it hype when he himself scale above wiki standard lighting speed

 

[Omimi]

I think you're confusing the terms slightly.

Natural energy can be gathered by the user from the environment and combined with their spiritual and physical energy in order to use Senjutsu.

no i am not confusing anything

all chakra came from juubi and juubi = nature energy

 

[AstralKing7]

Not when there's demonstrably slower lightning style showings and indications that not all jutsu move at the same speed.

Is this proven anywhere that snake lightning wasn't cinematic timing in the Shino feat??

Damage didn't even research snake lightning. That was the only scene where it seems to move slow but in ever other showing it literally moves fast

Matter of fact I will go get the links to the scenes where it moves fast


The manga also doesn't portray it as slow

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; can you please include links to it in the manga too? I haven't seen the jutsu being used in the manga.

 

[AstralKing7]

> Raiton shows the properties of lighting accepted by this wiki.

Not every Raiton jutsu shows the properties of lightning.

And not all Raiton jutsu share the same properties as each other. Boruto's Vanishing Rasengan is a lightning release jutsu that causes the Rasengan to become invisible; but no other Raiton jutsu causes the users attack to become invisible.

And it has not been proven that all Raiton jutsu by definition travel at a minimum speed of natural lightning.

Bad example. It was stated that this could be Boruto's own special power, it Kekkai genkai possibly as well. So no

 

[Elizhaa]

The statement for that is in the hype text at the side and not in the actual description. In another important thread it was said that we don't look at the hype text in the databooks.

head-canon
how is it hype when he himself scale above wiki standard lighting speed

I think we did get Statements guideline to limit issue like this case. Depending on which Option, the statements can be valid.

 

[Elizhaa]

I will give more inputs soon.

 

[MostPowerfull]

As I had anticipated ...

Basically, they try to separate the characteristics shown by Raiton in particular cases, all of them being part of the same jutsu system, with the clear intention of making a downgrade easier.

Nothing much, I will not even take it seriously! Raiton has more than 4 natural lightning properties and thus, they follow the rules of having such speed. Kirin is faster than normal Raiton, because it is literally not made of Chakra, so it does not contradict Raiton anywhere. The rest, just a bunch of head canon.

 

[AstralKing7]

I haven't forgotten to get the links just got some yard work to do today ya know

 

[Damage3245]

I haven't forgotten to get the links just got some yard work to do today ya know

There's no rush. I doubt this topic will be settled very soon.

 

[Mindovin]

@Damage

I also want to note for anyone who believes we should never use anime timeframes that we currently use the anime timeframes for Toneri's Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion speed, and for his feat of splitting the Moon apart, along with the meteor feat.

The Last: Naruto The Movie is what it is, a movie which is the main canon as light novel is supporting canon. Is there something I don't know, like the movie become mangalized(?) and movie became non-canon or something?

 

[Damage3245]

The Last: Naruto The Movie is what it is, a movie which is the main canon as light novel is supporting canon. Is there something I don't know, like the movie become mangalized(?) and movie became non-canon or something?

I'm not trying to say there is definitely a problem with using anime timeframes; but it seems rather selective when we can look at the anime timeframes for other jutsu as well and find them to be lower than our assumed speed for them.

 

[Elizhaa]

I also suppose then that we have to get rid of a lot of lighting feats for not explicitly stating how fast they travel even though they show the properties of lighting accepted by this wiki.

The vast majority of lightning speed feats comes from natural sources or from one character who's power is based around the element. But if those franchises are wrong, then they're wrong. They should be downgraded. As Ant has said multiple times before, one profile or set of profiles being incorrect does not justify another set of profiles being incorrect.

True.

A question: was there valid Statements that are option 2 or ofhers that lightning release produce actual lightning to validate the the lightning speed because I tried to look for them but I could not found it?

Sure, some lightning justu like Raiton looks to follow the Lightning Feats standard but I want clearer Statements to validate further the lighting nature justu speed scaling to the average lighting speed?

 

[Damage3245]

@Elizhaa; from the original manga itself, there are no statements putting typical Lightning Release jutsu on the same speed as natural lightning.

And we have Sasuke's and Black Zetsu's statement that very strongly suggest that Kirin (a jutsu based on using the speed of natural lightning to create an 'unavoidable attack') is one of the few jutsu that does travel at lightning speed.

Now, I'm not saying that Sasuke is 100% correct that the Kirin cannot be evaded or blocked. Clearly he is disproven on the latter bit because Sasuke's imperious Susano'o could block it. But even if he is wrong there is no other explanation for why he would say it other than he thought the Kirin was far above any other jutsu he could use in terms of speed.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Elizhaa

There is, in fact, no statement about such speed. Instead, they give us various characteristics of natural lightning. Detail, Sasuke's chidori was able to drive and manipulate the Kirin form, a natural lightning not made of Chakra. Raiton is capable of handling natural lightning.

Raitons follow the same systems of jutsus, within the same chakra affinity, following all their strong characteristics and weaknesses.
It has never been stated that there are differences between the Raitons in their nature. Separating them as individual techniques, even if they come from the same source and so on, does not make the slightest sense.

Sasuke's statement that "lightning can not be avoided" is refuted in the manga itself, and I debated it in the specific thread about it. Feats >>> Statements.

Note 1 - Kirin himself is accepted as Mach 3000+ on this Wikia, faster than the standard Wiki assumption for natural lightning. Therefore, he does not disapprove of Raiton's speed, much less refutes it because it is a natural lightning, not created by chakra.

 

[AstralKing7]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl_rsw7rIkA( the light travelled at the same speed as other lightning style jutsu)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RfgrIFlkH8M(pretty much the same as the last)

One last piece of evidence/https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ZQIrk5fJ(Mitsukis snake light meet two requirements of real lightning actually it seems. His lightning causes electrolysis as shown with the bubbles being created on around their bodies while they were submerged under water.) Also before anyone asks, no that's not bubbles coming out of Shino mouths. Shino didn't open his mouth until after snake lightning was finished in the water. The bubbles around the water and their bodies were gone already before he opened his mouth and it's not from Mitsuki since he opened his mouth way after. Yea lightning turning water into bubble form is an example of electrolysis.



One last piece of evidence that Snake lightning moves fast as other Raiton jutsu and agaisnt Shino it was cinematic timing https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F0WDyqyZdjY Snake lightning moves incredibly fast

 

[AstralKing7]

We still addressing Kirin; it's faster than an accepted lightning speed jutsu that was shown right before that arc. Kirin is faster than natural lightning already

 

[Rocker1189]

In addition to what Astral wrote:

Snake lightning has disable electromagnetism as shown in his fight against Shinki who uses Iron sand and controls it with magnetism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxjCWSDItnk&t=97s&app=desktop

And it has shown the ability to conduct throught earth:https://youtu.be/ddobc7joY_o?t=99

The explosives ar emade out of clay and his lightning style disables them by conducting through them.

With all this, it has shown at least 3 if not 4 criteria which as far as I know is normally more than most feats require and thus should pass for lightning speed.

 

[Damage3245]

When Sarada and Mitsuki both use a Fireball jutsu and the Snake Lightning jutsu respectively, both jutsu travel at exactly the same speed / reach their target at the same time after being launched at the same time.

Why should we believe that the speed of the Snake Lightning jutsu is determined entirely by the speed of natural lightning, when the speed of the Fireball jutsu is seemingly entirely arbitrary?

What explanation is being proposed here for what determines the speed of a Fireball jutsu?

Saying 'fireballs don't have a set speed' doesn't answer anything. Snakes made out of lightning don't have a set speed either.

 

[Rocker1189]

When Sarada and Mitsuki both use a Fireball jutsu and the Snake Lightning jutsu respectively, both jutsu travel at exactly the same speed / reach their target at the same time after being launched at the same time.
Why should we believe that the speed of the Snake Lightning jutsu is determined entirely by the speed of natural lightning, when the speed of the Fireball jutsu is seemingly entirely arbitrary?

What explanation is being proposed here for what determines the speed of a Fireball jutsu?

Saying 'fireballs don't have a set speed' doesn't answer anything. Snakes made out of lightning don't have a set speed either.

Huh? It s just means that Sarada's attacks are comparable in speed to Mitsutki's dude this is literally a trope again in any anime or manga regardless of what it is, they would show speeds comparable even if one is meant to be faster. (not because it is bleach but it is the first one that comes to mind) This is like candices' arrows compared to the other sternritter ladies again.

You mean lightning shaped like snakes, it is not snakes made out of lightning.

 

[M3X_2.0]

What is the problem for her fireball travel at the same speed as lightning?

 

[Rocker1189]

At the end of the day now mitsuki's lightning specifically has shown at least 3 criteria if not 4 thus should qualify.

 

[AstralKing7]

Damage it's crazy that you posted that because it means u don't really know about the Boruto series


Mitsuki and Sarada and Konohomaru all attacked Ao at the same time but Mitsukis snake lightning reached him first


Also if I remember correctly why is the speed of fire style being discussed here??? Better yet we all know that this is a common shonen troupe

Goku flies with whis but we don't scale Goku to whis jsut because they are seen moving by each other.

We don't scale fodder ninjas in attack speed to Naruto's FRS jsut because we don't see right besides his attack.

Damage your reaching man and you use more assumptions for downgrades than anything

 

[Damage3245]

> This is like candices' arrows compared to the other sternritter ladies again.

For what it's worth you should know I also disagreed with that one and objected to it being used.

> What is the problem for her fireball travel at the same speed as lightning?

What is it that determines the speed of a fireball? Sasuke as a teenager / kid shot fireballs yet we don't consider him to have Massively Hypersonic+ attack speed. What difference is there between their attacks?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Oh, why are you comparing both fireballs? This seems like hypocrite. This mean we can compare lightning styles too

 

[Rocker1189]

For what it's worth you should know I also disagreed with that one and objected to it being used.

What is it that determines the speed of a fireball? Sasuke as a teenager / kid shot fireballs yet we don't consider him to have Massively Hypersonic+ attack speed. What difference is there between their attacks?

Great it is still accepted. Thus it is no different here.

The strength or feats of the specific character that is what.

 

[Damage3245]

Oh, why are you comparing both fireballs? This seems like hypocrite. This mean we can compare lightning styles too

I'm trying to get an explanation for why lightning-based jutsu have to be at the speed of lightning, and the speed of all other nature transformations is completely arbitrary.

If there is nothing that determines the speed of other jutsu by default, it is a double-standard to say all lightning-based jutsu have to be at the speed of lightning.

 

[Rocker1189]

I'm trying to get an explanation for why lightning-based jutsu have to be at the speed of lightning, and the speed of all other nature transformations is completely arbitrary.

If there is nothing that determines the speed of other jutsu by default, it is a double-standard to say all lightning-based jutsu have to be at the speed of lightning.

Because they have displayed the criteria needed to be so or more speifically mitsuki's have.

Good we wont say all lightning does then mitsuki's does.

 

[AstralKing7]

I literally jsut commented about why your argument is flawed damage and u continue to use it ƒÖä