Important Naruto Speed Revision & Lightning Release Revision

[M3X_2.0]

I'm trying to get an explanation for why lightning-based jutsu have to be at the speed of lightning, and the speed of all other nature transformations is completely arbitrary.

So ask for the correct peoples, not me. My Shino's calc use Mitsuki's lightning wich Astral and Rocker proved to be real lightning, and you tried to disprove using "Hur it travels at the same speed look hurr", even I've debunked this kind of stupid argument on the previous LS statements thread, and you don't even tried to respond.

If there is nothing that determines the speed of other jutsu by default, it is a double-standard to say all lightning-based jutsu have to be at the speed of lightning.

Same as above. If the Jutsu does not show any stuff about being real lightning, then bye bye.

 

[MostPowerfull]

Skills are scalable techniques, just like any character.

Fireball and cia, does not have its speeds defined. If they follow a velocity that has been defined, they scale to them (and yet Raiton is shown to be one of the fastest elements). They are fast, depending on the character who uses them.
Just as they are so powerful that the other, depending on the character who uses it.
Sasuke Kid's fireball never reacted to lightning or a Raiton.

 

[AstralKing7]

But let's not forget anyway that Sarada >>kid Sasuke ƒÖäƒÖäƒÖä

Like MP said Raiton is already considered a fast release anyway in the verse

 

[Jvando]

When Mitsuki forms the Snake Lightning around him, it is 'moving through the air' yet it is clearly not travelling at lightning speed.

Yes, and when he shoots it, it travels at lighting speed.

You know, I know of this character from some manga that has lighting that is stated to be "superior to natural lighting" and who forms arrows from such lighting. Imagine my surprise when, after she formed the arrow, it didn't travel at lighting speed? Maybe, just maybe it only traveled at lighting speed when it was fired

Who. Would. Have. Thought?

Also, Ci-ne-ma-tic Timing: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jxjCWSDItnk&t=97s


Also the speed of Kakashi's Lightning Fang jutsu has its speed altered depending on the amount of chakra that Kakashi puts into it. The speed in not solely based on it having the properties of lightning.

This has literally only ever been stated for this specific Raiton technique and no other technique ever. How is it that you can state "All Raiton must be adjustable in speed and size because this single technique is adjustable in speed and size" but when I state that all Raiton share similar properties based on the fact that different Raiton users have shown the same Raiton properties (Darui and Sasuke have shown conduction and Numbing/Paralysis); the fact that chakra is the same between individuals since it is made up of the same building blocks; and because of common sense, I'm the one using an association fallacy?

These double-standards are truly incredible.

Additionally, this version of Kakashi scales above (or at bare minimum equal to) Mirai who was calced to have a reaction of Mach 2.6k utilizing a feat that doesn't use that "Raiton = cloud-to-ground lighting speed" assumption (which is actually justifiable). His opponents also have similar reactions. His lighting would have to be at least average cloud-to-ground lighting speed in order to be effective.

Finally, in that very same Databook you linked, it states If the enemy receives a direct hit, they will also stop as a result! Further supporting the fact that all Raiton (regardless of shape) share the same properties (in this case, the one described is paralysis.)

@Jvando; Lightning Release jutsu always travelling at natural cloud-to-ground lightning speeds is not proven to be part of their base properties. That is what is being assumed.

This is the same assumption used for every fantasy verse that has utilized some sort of non-natural lighting that meets the lighting criteria. Yet for some reason when Naruto does it, it becomes a problem.

Lit.

And once and for all, I want to stop this idea that Raiton properties can be different from user to user to user despite me not having any proof of this and despite there being much evidence to the contrary


Are we all just going to conveniently forget that you need to oscillate your chakra at high frequencies in order to generate Raiton? Why then would the Raiton show different properties when the process of forming them in the first place is the exact same for every user?

When you rub your hands together rapidly, do you expect to generate ice?

No. You expect to generate heat.

What do you think plants are producing when they undergo Photosynthesis? Fire?

No. Every single plant that undergoes photosynthesis, produces glucose and oxygen. You learn this in fifth grade (in America at least which is as far back as I care to remember)

Why would Raiton have different properties when the process of forming it is the same across every single user?

Hint: it's not.

Therefore, the Raiton properties that a user shows in a particular situation applies to every Raiton user. It literally depends on the situation is they decide to utilize a specific aspect of their Raiton or not.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Completely agree with Jvando here

 

[AstralKing7]

Damage obviously is just using bs claims now.

Snake lightning which he didn't even know was shown to move slow only one time which is because of cinematic timing. He didn't even know how many of the other times he used snake lightning and how fast it moved ƒÿæƒÿæƒÿæƒÿæ

That's crazy

Also this threads smell contradictory

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I agree with Damage and Qawsedf234.

It's never truly made sense that all Raitom move at lightning speed.

The biggest reason being the existence of Kirin, a Jutsu whose whole speciality is it moves at lightning speed making it undodgable. Sasuke already had 3 other Raiton Justu, so it'd be completely asinine to even have Kirin if the other lightning style are also lightning speed.

 

[TataHakai]

naruto and lightning, always enemies, always a shitstorm

Anyways i'm neutral on this

 

[Xulrev]

>I agree with Damage and Qawsedf

Oh....that's alright, I'll just be over here with my points, thanks.....

On a real note, yeah. IMade sums it up. Only one Raiton is stated to be lightning-speed. It's an Association Fallacy to presume they all are when Kirin is made special by that fact, explicitly, in addition to none of the rest exhibiting wiki-required traits for calling them lightning.

 

[Damage3245]

IMade is right; to try and overlook Kirin, you need to judge Raiton by two different standards:

> Kirin is as fast as natural lightning which travels X distance over 0.001 seconds.

> All other Lightning Jutsu is as fast as natural lightning which travels on average at Mach 1294.

Where is the proof for Kirin travelling faster than average lightning? Making calcs based on assumed cloud heights is not objective proof.

 

[Rocker1189]

>I agree with Damage and Qawsedf
Oh....that's alright, I'll just be over here with my points, thanks.....

On a real note, yeah. IMade sums it up. Only one Raiton is stated to be lightning-speed. It's an Association Fallacy to presume they all are when Kirin is made special by that fact, explicitly, in addition to none of the rest exhibiting wiki-required traits for calling them lightning.

So I guess you would ignore the proof we brought for Mitsuki's lighting?

 

[Rocker1189]

IMade is right; to try and overlook Kirin, you need to judge Raiton by two different standards:
> Kirin is as fast as natural lightning which travels X distance over 0.001 seconds.

> All other Lightning Jutsu is as fast as natural lightning which travels on average at Mach 1294.

Where is the proof for Kirin travelling faster than average lightning? Making calcs based on assumed cloud heights is not objective proof.

We made calcs based on calced cloud heights too and the timeframe they were still above the aevrage speed.

 

[Rocker1189]

I agree with Damage and Qawsedf234.
It's never truly made sense that all Raitom move at lightning speed.

The biggest reason being the existence of Kirin, a Jutsu whose whole speciality is it moves at lightning speed making it undodgable. Sasuke already had 3 other Raiton Justu, so it'd be completely asinine to even have Kirin if the other lightning style are also lightning speed.

same old same old.

 

[Jvando]

Bro, there is never objective proof that magical lighting travels at average cloud-to-ground lightning speeds. This is why we have those standards in the first place, to determine this.

Everything is an assumption.

I suppose you'll only be satisfied if I find scans that state "[X] shot a bolt of lighting that traveled at 1280 times the speed of sound??!!!!!!???"

Kirin is faster than average lighting determined by calcs which support this.

Raiton can still be average lighting speed and fit within this, especially when Raiton have 4 accepted properties of the Wiki.

 

[TataHakai]

Where is the proof for Kirin travelling faster than average lightning? Making calcs based on assumed cloud heights is not objective proof.

I'm going to stay neutral on the raiton thing but Kirin has already been discussed to death

I'm pretty sure everyone is fine with using 2km which is the average we use for the wiki in cloud height, this puts Kirin at around mach 5.6k (MHS+)

 

[MostPowerfull]

Kirin does not contradict Raiton at all. Calculations prove this in different ways.

Even the current calculations (Damage and others, I think), with the mountain being 500 ~ 600m and assuming it will fall on MOUNTAIN TOP (which is not true anyway) and subtracting the mountain height from the 2000m standards, would still give the Kirin a speed greater than the average lightning.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

@IMade

Since when did those 3 other jutsus bust a mountain? I'm pretty sure Sasuke uses Kirin not for it's speed, but for its effectiveness and power.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I really have to ask what calculations have you been looking at, MostPowerfull.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Actually Candice has a direct statement her arrows are 5 gigajoules and another statement from the novels stating her lightning whilst weakened is superior to natural lightning.

 

[Damage3245]

@IMade
Since when did those 3 other jutsus bust a mountain? I'm pretty sure Sasuke uses Kirin not for it's speed, but for its effectiveness and power.

Yes, the power is a part of it. But the reason why it is considered unavoidable is its speed. Even if you think Sasuke is completely wrong, there is a reason why he said what he said.

And to everyone else; Black Zetsu did not give the 0.001 second timeframe for Kirin.

 

[Rocker1189]

I really have to ask what calculations have you been looking at, MostPowerfull.

literally all the calcs we have for kirin put it above the average. like literally all of them.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Lancelot

In the Damage blog's, there is a new height for the Uchiha Hideout.

 

[MostPowerfull]

LOL!

WTF!

Really, dude!? Zetsu said this to a natural lightning bolt. Kirin is a natural lightning bolt.

 

[TataHakai]

@IMade
Since when did those 3 other jutsus bust a mountain? I'm pretty sure Sasuke uses Kirin not for it's speed, but for its effectiveness and power.

And to everyone else; Black Zetsu did not give the 0.001 second timeframe for Kirin.

Kirin still has it apply because Kirin is natural lightning

 

[Jvando]

And it also has a calculated speed of Mach 5.6k puting it well within the range for cloud to ground lighting speed

 

[Damage3245]

Kirin still has it apply because Kirin is natural lightning

Tata; I get that. My point is that a lot of people are claiming that Raiton is equal to natural lightning.

If we have an example of objective natural lightning speed in Naruto, then why isn't that standard being used for jutsu that are supposedly travelling at natural lightning speeds?

 

[Jvando]

Natural lighting has a range of speed. Kirin quite clearly is above average in size and speed.

Naruto lighting fits in especially when they have 4 out of the 7 criteria used in this Fandom

 

[Rocker1189]

Tata; I get that. My point is that a lot of people are claiming that Raiton is equal to natural lightning.

If we have an example of objective natural lightning speed in Naruto, then why isn't that standard being used for jutsu that are supposedly travelling at natural lightning speeds?

Mitsuki's snake lightinng has shown enough criteria on its own, the calc with shino is perfectly fine, raiton all together is a different story personally I think they should all be MHS+ due too how raiton works unless they are clearly not generally lightning shaped.

 

[TataHakai]

Kirin still has it apply because Kirin is natural lightning

Tata; I get that. My point is that a lot of people are claiming that Raiton is equal to natural lightning.
If we have an example of objective natural lightning speed in Naruto, then why isn't that standard being used for jutsu that are supposedly travelling at natural lightning speeds?

As i said i'm staying neutral on this point, just wanted to make sure there was no misconceptions

 

[AstralKing7]

At this point damage your thread is Been debunked


You made a thread about Snake lightning only to get debunked.


Kirin has constantly been debunked for like two threads before this literally

Half of this thread is now unnecessary when u are talking about two topics back and forward without realizing that one of your main points got debunked and proof was even shown.

Am I the only one seeing this ƒñöƒñöƒñö

 

[AstralKing7]

Tata; I get that. My point is that a lot of people are claiming that Raiton is equal to natural lightning.

If we have an example of objective natural lightning speed in Naruto, then why isn't that standard being used for jutsu that are supposedly travelling at natural lightning speeds?


It jsut so happened that the calcs are above the average speed of lightning that is accepted on this site which is easy to understand


Now compare that to a calc where Raiton was sent to an opponent with the accepted average lightning value. Kirin was calced to be way faster than this


What don't you people understand and are constantly ignoring this when it's accepted

 

[Damage3245]

I feel like people still aren't getting my point about Kirin which is leading to a lot of confusion.

I'll try to rephrase what I am saying in the morning.

Apologies if I've not been explaining it well enough.

Also I would appreciate it if people didn't just keep claiming that arguments are 'debunked' until the thread is concluded.

 

[Rocker1189]

I definitely get your point about Kirin I simply do not agree with it. And again this shoul dnot metter with evidence we have provided specific to mitsuki. The end.

 

[Mindovin]

@Damage

Problem with what you said is there is no other way to calc them other than the movie and it results always priority as it is main canon. You can't compare with the Naruto anime.


Can someone make a blog about why lightning and/or which lightning techs in Naruto accepted as real lightning and why?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Jvando is making the most sense here, and I have been told and agree that this does feel like a repeat of the previous thread regarding Kirin's speed or lightning.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

This does feel like a repeat. And all the points has been addressed already in the other thread.

 

[Damage3245]

My point about Kirin is basically this:

1) If we presume that Black Zetsu is referring to lightning in general (which he definitely seems to be going by his wording) then we can take the average height of clouds and divide it by the timeframe given to us (0.001 s) which gives us an average speed of lightning from the perspective of Black Zetsu / Kishimoto.

2) We have our own standard on the average speed of lightning.

3) Trying to use two different standards for the same thing is inherently wrong.

Saying that the Black Zetsu statement applies exclusively to Kirin is wrong because Black Zetsu's statement is very clearly referring to the speed of natural lightning in general.

And if we're presuming that Lightning Release jutsu is always as fast as natural lightning in general, then trying to use our own standard is contradicting what Black Zetsu has told us.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

How many times do people need to tell you the same thing?Raiton meets all criteria needed,Kirin is a special case since it has a timeframe.

Just close this thread already,it gets tiersome for people to discuss the same things over and over again just to appease one guy.And stop creating threads after you've been refuted on them already.You are wrong of you think with more threads on that subject you gain more support or make more sense.

 

[Rocker1189]

My point about Kirin is basically this:

1) If we presume that Black Zetsu is referring to lightning in general (which he definitely seems to be going by his wording) then we can take the average height of clouds and divide it by the timeframe given to us (0.001 s) which gives us an average speed of lightning from the perspective of Black Zetsu / Kishimoto.

2) We have our own standard on the average speed of lightning.

3) Trying to use two different standards for the same thing is inherently wrong.

Saying that the Black Zetsu statement applies exclusively to Kirin is wrong because Black Zetsu's statement is very clearly referring to the speed of natural lightning in general.

And if we're presuming that Lightning Release jutsu is always as fast as natural lightning in general, then trying to use our own standard is contradicting what Black Zetsu has told us.

I like the way you say that we don't understand you when we have understood what you are saying and answers this at least 50 times before.

Regardless mitsuki's lightning specifically has shown enough criteria to be able to use the natural lightning speed.

 

[Damage3245]

You clearly did not read my last post. I explained that it is not Kirin specifically that has a timeframe.